Potential Offseason Moves

[Whole Truth]

Posted this on Minnesota's board, waiting to see their response -

Memphis have 2 trade exceptions -

- a 25.5m TPE created in the Utah/Conley trade.
- a 8m TPE created in the Temple trade

2 non guaranteed contracts -

- Bradley 12m/2m guaranteed
- Korver 7.6m/3m guaranteed

In a market where several teams are vying for a PG. Memphis traded Conley to Utah pre draft for mainly cap space (large TPE), Korver's non guaranteed contract. Now why would Memphis do a pre draft trade before the PG dominoes fall & his value could increase in teams desperation to add a quality PG ? why would Minnesota trade up for a SG & let the remaining PG prospect (White) drop one spot behind, when he either fills a hole on roster or acts as insurance for missing out on a PG, FA or trade, in the same draft territory ?.

Of course it's an assumption but I think both these moves were linked. Why Minnesota believe they have a path to cap space being 7m over the cap threshold. Memphis are kicking off a rebuild where they can bury dead money for a couple seasons. They have a need at SG where Minnesota traded up to take Culver at 6 over White. I don't think Culver has a big enough edge on White to claim he was the clear BPA.

Wiggins 27m is too big to fit into the 25.5m TPE & Memphis can only use a large chunk, not all, without going into the tax.

Memphis trade - (Teague 19m) for (TPE 19)
Memphis trade - (Crowder 7.8m, Korver 7.6m/3m Guaranteed, K. Anderson 9M) for (Wiggins, Culver, protected FRP)

Memphis waive Bradley to shed 10m to keep them from going into luxury tax, while Minnesota dump Wiggins, shed 33m cap including Culvers 5m cap hold for roughly 85m total savings. (Brooklyn paid 2 mid to late firsts for 18m cap / 33m savings).

Do Minnesota fans think Culver & a protected first an overpayment for an expiring stretch 3&D SF/PF in Crowder which replaces the loss of Saric, a young 3&D wing in K. Anderson who doesn't fit Memphis new up tempo pace but gives a young 3&D wing in return, while dropping Wiggins 4yr/120m contract, in order to sign Russell?.

[Whole Truth]

Vic, so much for Minnesota fans not liking the idea, already got a like from one of their smarter posters, shrink.

Memphis trade - (Teague 19m) for (TPE 19)
Memphis trade - (Crowder 7.8m, Korver 7.6m/3m Guaranteed, K. Anderson 9M) for (Wiggins, Culver, protected FRP)

Memphis have 10m practical cap space - buyout Bradley = 20m

This trade is 46m in - 24m out = 22m difference (Include Allen 2.4m in the deal, with Culver coming back) = 46m wash.

The 4-2 player swap also helps Minnesota with the 1m roster spot bargaining rule.

[Whole Truth]

Read on Twitter

[/quote]

[VCfor3]

1. Nets extending a qualifying offer makes a ton of sense even if they are confident KD and Kyrie are on the way. Once they have an official commitment they can waive the qualifying offer.
2. Every comment said no to your trade as written. You also said protected FRP which they are probably thinking 2020. That is very different from the unprotected 2022 you had been posting here.
3. I like posts from fans of other teams coming to our forum to ask about a trade even if I think the trade is terrible. They are asking an honest question and I commend them for looking for feedback.

[SD2042]

Read on Twitter

Lowe added that in order to create space for a top-tier player this summer, the Timberwolves will have to find a deal for Andrew Wiggins. The NBA analyst said that one person he talked to strongly believes that Minnesota will find a win-win trade involving Wiggins.The quote above makes it appear that Minnesota could win the trade but Clutch sports later posted Lowe added, a "win/win" scenario. Not a win or payment for Minnesota stated in that quote. No team is going to pay to take on one of the leagues worse negative contracts. Minnesota have a need to dump that contract other than to just rid themselves of it financially, they have a FA target in mind, that's leverage. Especially considering Suns have extreme interest in the same target & already have 21m in cap space to their -7m.

I doubt it's a team looking to contend or close to contention. It has to be a base rebuilding team that has no need for cap space other than building assets, if they have it for the foreseeable future. Outside of Memphis, who could potentially have that type interest?.

Suns, Dallas, Kings, Cavs, Bulls, Hawks are trying to make the leap into contention, to tie up that much wasted money.
Knicks drafted SF RJ, I doubt they would block his development.
Charlotte, it would put them in the luxury tax having let Walker go in FA, who at a similar price would hold more value.

That leaves basically Memphis who likes Culver & traded Conley for cap space in order to net assets. Where simultaneously that Conley pre draft trade saw Minnesota trade up to pass on White which would have been insurance in the case they missed out on Russell to draft a SG in Culver (who Memphis liked) when they have a promising young SG in Okogie & a need to Dump up to 30m in cap space ..

Brooklyn paid 2 mid to late firsts for 18m cap space & 33m savings. Taking Wiggins into space, is 30m cap space, 120m savings & would lock a team down for at least 3yrs.

With Suns also looking to also do a S&T with reported extreme interest in Russell, Minnesota have no leverage in their need to dump salary. They fail to do that, Suns will win out on Russell.

If I'm right & it is Memphis with interest, I hope it's no less than - (Wiggins, Culver & a protected FRP).

I can't see Brooklyn going for Wiggins after working this hard under Sean Marks to get their cap space. WIth KD selling his Cali home and moving to NY. It's either the Nets or Knicks that will get him. The Nets like the most likely along with Kyrie to make the Nets their new team.

I would hate for the Grizzlies to be the sucker for the Wiggins contract. I do not see this cat improving his game on both ends. What would it take for him to show more dedication to improve his game is anyone's guess. I almost rather take on the Batum contract way before I take on Wiggins any day.

The Suns have to add some veterans to their squad beacuse add youth on top of youth will not appease them to get better. They need some solid teachers who been around and know what it takes to win games. If they can afford to acquire at least three or four vets who know how to win well, I think they have a show at improve their culture and winning ways to boot.

[Whole Truth]

1. Nets extending a qualifying offer makes a ton of sense even if they are confident KD and Kyrie are on the way. Once they have an official commitment they can waive the qualifying offer.
2. Every comment said no to your trade as written. You also said protected FRP which they are probably thinking 2020. That is very different from the unprotected 2022 you had been posting here.
3. I like posts from fans of other teams coming to our forum to ask about a trade even if I think the trade is terrible. They are asking an honest question and I commend them for looking for feedback.

6 people responded to the trade -

2 people gave it a like

2 people basically said they don't want to part with Culver, 1 offered Okoge as a suggested replacement.

1 person said they don't want to part with "ANY" assets, they rather not go after Russell.

1 person wanted to correct me stating Culver wasn't a clear enough upgrade over White to pass on fit, need & insurance.

One of the 2 people that liked the trade, I know as a respected opinion on their board, he actually understands the importance of not only dumping Wiggins but not having 2 bad contracts tied up for the next 4 yrs killing the teams flexibility to put a team/depth around the young maxed out duo of Kat & Russell, tying up 60m in 2 likely underproducing players. Culver while projected to be good, is still an unknown asset. All it takes for things to go terribly wrong for Minnesota is Russell not living up to his likely over payment & Culver turning out to be not as good as projected/expected .. which is a very likely scenario. Lebron's & Jordan's don't come around every draft & in this one the talent was expected to fall off after the 3rd pick, where Culver was drafted 6th.

The other 2 basically want something, for nothing. There's value in taking on Wiggins contract alone. The fillers in trade are an expiring stretch forward in Crowder which helps the loss of Saric & a young 3&D wing in K. Anderson on a reasonable contract, no bad money going back in 46m worth of contracts. All while helping them get 30m in cap space to beat out the Suns interest in signing Russell. One of their arguments for taking Culver off the table was the poster stating Wiggins has value in his bad contract for potential reclamation, lol. If he believes that, then by trading Wiggins he understands the "need" to get out from under his contract, yet he doesn't value the fact that they did. He should want to keep him if he truly believes that there's a good player still in one of the worse regarded long term producing contracts. The young 3&D wing & stretch SF/PF should have been enough compensation for any potential reclamation value, leaving Memphis taking on 30m cap, 80m+ savings for a protected pick, where Brooklyn gave up the 17th pick & another mid to late first for only 18m cap space & 33m savings ..

^ That value, is the equivalent of using Holiday with a FRP, to move Parsons with 2 more years added on his deal, without even considering the value of a having a potential target with that freed cap space to beat out another team contending for that same target … This is why I don't bother with bias fan opinion .. Culver is the shinny new toy out the package, where hype/hope is overvalued.

Neither poster that said no to including Culver took into consideration his 5m cap hold in trade gets them to that 30m practical cap space. If he's not included, Minnesota would not free up enough cap to beat out the Suns who are vying for the same target.

[Whole Truth]

I can't see Brooklyn going for Wiggins after working this hard under Sean Marks to get their cap space. WIth KD selling his Cali home and moving to NY. It's either the Nets or Knicks that will get him. The Nets like the most likely along with Kyrie to make the Nets their new team.

I would hate for the Grizzlies to be the sucker for the Wiggins contract. I do not see this cat improving his game on both ends. What would it take for him to show more dedication to improve his game is anyone's guess. I almost rather take on the Batum contract way before I take on Wiggins any day.

The Suns have to add some veterans to their squad beacuse add youth on top of youth will not appease them to get better. They need some solid teachers who been around and know what it takes to win games. If they can afford to acquire at least three or four vets who know how to win well, I think they have a show at improve their culture and winning ways to boot.

This is the point. I'm not after Wiggins ... I'm after the value of Minnesota needing to free 37m cap space, shed long term financial commitment. If they think Memphis will take Wiggins without compensation they can keep him & lose out on Russell.

If they keep Wiggins & use a large 19m expiring Teague to acquire a max Russell they will put themselves in the luxury tax sooner than later & potentially kill any financial flexibility they could have if they move Wiggins instead .. (there's a lot of understated value in maintaining that flexibility & reduced risk).

Ideally, I think Culver & a 2022 pick if fair value & would like to remind people I'm not a Memphis fan, I'm a Raptor fan.

[Whole Truth]

A dose of reality from the Minnesota board.

Shangrila posts.

Wiggins was 118th out of 120 in eFG% and 190th out of 199 in TS% but was 2nd on the team in FGAs. If we just want to replace that 18ppg and not give a crap about how many shots it takes we could easily find someone. I mean, just give 8 guys 2 extra shots a game and we probably come out ahead.

I just don't see how you could hold onto Wiggins if a good trade came along. He's shown no signs of growth thus far, the player he is right now is worthless and it would take a minor miracle to find someone who either likes what he is or still somehow believes in his potential. You just have to do that deal if it's presented, whether you can replace him on paper or not.

KGdaBom posts

This was the post of the day. You spelled it out. In any objective way of looking at it Wiggins is HORRIBLE and getting paid a MAX contract. If we can get rid of him without having to pay through the nose it will be a miracle.

Me -

Yet some Minnesota fans want to give up nothing to move him. IMO, Culver (unknown value) in a weak draft that value is projected to fall off after 3 & a FRP 3yrs from now is not paying through the nose for what taking on Wiggins helps Minnesota accomplish. From dropping a HORRIBLE contract, on a WORTHLESS player (their words, not mine) to creating space needed to potentially sign Russell, to keeping future cap flexibility to put a team around that move/decision to target Russell.

Taking on Wiggins for Culver & a 2022 pick is IMO fair value.

[VCfor3]

But if you look at the board they say moving him in an inexpensive deal would be worth it due to him being such a bad contract. Not paying Culver and a super valuable pick. And there is a big difference between Culver and Okogie. Okogie and a protected pick to get off Wiggins and get enough space for DLo would be a big win for them.

It seems where we disagree the most though is about Culver and the 2022 pick not being paying through the nose. Even in a weak draft, #6 is a good player. Quite a few people had Culver as the 4th or 5th best player in the draft. Add in an unprotected pick in what is slated to be the "double draft" and that is a ton of value to give up.

[Whole Truth]

But if you look at the board they say moving him in an inexpensive deal would be worth it due to him being such a bad contract. Not paying Culver and a super valuable pick. And there is a big difference between Culver and Okogie. Okogie and a protected pick to get off Wiggins and get enough space for DLo would be a big win for them.

It seems where we disagree the most though is about Culver and the 2022 pick not being paying through the nose. Even in a weak draft, #6 is a good player. Quite a few people had Culver as the 4th or 5th best player in the draft. Add in an unprotected pick in what is slated to be the "double draft" and that is a ton of value to give up.

Quoting the Minnesota fan - "Wiggins was 118th out of 120 in eFG% and 190th out of 199 in TS% but was 2nd on the team in FGAs".

He has no value as a player more less a max contract, the only thing he has working in his favor is the perception of slightly possible untapped potential, unlikely after several seasons in the league. So that brings the trade to a monetary point.

Brooklyn paid 2 mid to late firsts for 18m cap, 33m savings. That rate is a mid to late first for every 6m cap space, 15m savings.

Minnesota is saving 33m cap space, 80+ m saving. The rate equivalent of 4 mid to late firsts.

Not factoring the longer 4yr commitment, the fact that Minnesota have a need for cap space to sign Russell & that dropping Wiggins helps their future flexibility, where the alternative of trading an expiring/shorter contract, will see them in the luxury tax, if they were to attempt to sign Russell & hold onto Wiggins to not part with assets.

Is Culver worth 3 mid to late firsts? & while the 2022 draft is expected to be a good one. Minnesota's young 23yrs old core of Russell & Kat could be a base of a winning team 3yrs from now especially with that financial flexibility of dropping Wiggins to properly add pieces to it that the 2022 pick could be devalued in wins but for Minnesota taking on the risk of Wiggins bad contract for 4yrs, I'd ask for them to take the risk on the 2022 pick to make it worth it for Memphis.

Basically a sure asset in Wiggins & one unknown asset in a FRP to share the risk in trade.

[VCfor3]

But if you look at the board they say moving him in an inexpensive deal would be worth it due to him being such a bad contract. Not paying Culver and a super valuable pick. And there is a big difference between Culver and Okogie. Okogie and a protected pick to get off Wiggins and get enough space for DLo would be a big win for them.

It seems where we disagree the most though is about Culver and the 2022 pick not being paying through the nose. Even in a weak draft, #6 is a good player. Quite a few people had Culver as the 4th or 5th best player in the draft. Add in an unprotected pick in what is slated to be the "double draft" and that is a ton of value to give up.

Quoting the Minnesota fan - "Wiggins was 118th out of 120 in eFG% and 190th out of 199 in TS% but was 2nd on the team in FGAs".

He has no value as a player more less a max contract, the only thing he has working in his favor is the perception of slightly possible untapped potential, unlikely after several seasons in the league. So that brings the trade to a monetary point.

Brooklyn paid 2 mid to late firsts for 18m cap, 33m savings. That rate is a mid to late first for every 6m cap space, 15m savings.

Minnesota is saving 33m cap space, 80+ m saving. The rate equivalent of 4 mid to late firsts.

Not factoring the longer 4yr commitment, the fact that Minnesota have a need for cap space to sign Russell & that dropping Wiggins helps their future flexibility, where the alternative of trading an expiring/shorter contract, will see them in the luxury tax, if they were to attempt to sign Russell & hold onto Wiggins to not part with assets.

Is Culver worth 3 mid to late firsts? & while the 2022 draft is expected to be a good one. Minnesota's young 23yrs old core of Russell & Kat could be a base of a winning team 3yrs from now especially with that financial flexibility of dropping Wiggins to properly add pieces to it that the 2022 pick could be devalued in wins but for Minnesota taking on the risk of Wiggins bad contract for 4yrs, I'd ask for them to take the risk on the 2022 pick to make it worth it for Memphis.

Basically a sure asset in Wiggins & one unknown asset in a FRP to share the risk in trade.

From the post you are quoting: "I just don't see how you could hold onto Wiggins if a good (i.e. inexpensive) trade came along." What you are proposing isn't the trade he is talking about. Your trade takes what is likely their second and third best assets (Towns is first) away from them. Also, Brooklyn didn't use two firsts for 18m of cap space. They used one. The second first round pick was for Prince.

[Whole Truth]

But if you look at the board they say moving him in an inexpensive deal would be worth it due to him being such a bad contract. Not paying Culver and a super valuable pick. And there is a big difference between Culver and Okogie. Okogie and a protected pick to get off Wiggins and get enough space for DLo would be a big win for them.

It seems where we disagree the most though is about Culver and the 2022 pick not being paying through the nose. Even in a weak draft, #6 is a good player. Quite a few people had Culver as the 4th or 5th best player in the draft. Add in an unprotected pick in what is slated to be the "double draft" and that is a ton of value to give up.

Quoting the Minnesota fan - "Wiggins was 118th out of 120 in eFG% and 190th out of 199 in TS% but was 2nd on the team in FGAs".

He has no value as a player more less a max contract, the only thing he has working in his favor is the perception of slightly possible untapped potential, unlikely after several seasons in the league. So that brings the trade to a monetary point.

Brooklyn paid 2 mid to late firsts for 18m cap, 33m savings. That rate is a mid to late first for every 6m cap space, 15m savings.

Minnesota is saving 33m cap space, 80+ m saving. The rate equivalent of 4 mid to late firsts.

Not factoring the longer 4yr commitment, the fact that Minnesota have a need for cap space to sign Russell & that dropping Wiggins helps their future flexibility, where the alternative of trading an expiring/shorter contract, will see them in the luxury tax, if they were to attempt to sign Russell & hold onto Wiggins to not part with assets.

Is Culver worth 3 mid to late firsts? & while the 2022 draft is expected to be a good one. Minnesota's young 23yrs old core of Russell & Kat could be a base of a winning team 3yrs from now especially with that financial flexibility of dropping Wiggins to properly add pieces to it that the 2022 pick could be devalued in wins but for Minnesota taking on the risk of Wiggins bad contract for 4yrs, I'd ask for them to take the risk on the 2022 pick to make it worth it for Memphis.

Basically a sure asset in Wiggins & one unknown asset in a FRP to share the risk in trade.

From the post you are quoting: "I just don't see how you could hold onto Wiggins if a good (i.e. inexpensive) trade came along." What you are proposing isn't the trade he is talking about. Your trade takes what is likely their second and third best assets (Towns is first) away from them. Also, Brooklyn didn't use two firsts for 18m of cap space. They used one. The second first round pick was for Prince.

I purposely removed that inexpensive part for good trade because it's subjective to what he thinks is an overpayment. Which he did not state.

Does Crowder & Anderson as trade fillers, an expiring 3&D stretch big & a 9m young 3&D wing not have returning value?. or are you watching them as solely fillers?.

Minnesota in return for 46m in salary heading out they have only 9m committed coming in for better future financial flexibility which has it's own value, doesn't hurt it's attached to a young 3&D wing.. There's no bad contracts heading back Minnesota's way where other deals on top of not taking Wiggins will try to send back some unwanted committed salary. The fillers are 2 useful pieces one being a cheap young 3&D wing to fit a young core moving forward, the other a stretch SF/PF to replace their loss of Saric who was effective helping stretch the floor for Kat ..

I'm not sure we'll see eye to eye on this, for me if they don't want to include Culver & a 2020 first they can keep Wiggins & go into the luxury tax for Russell. Memphis will easily find value elseware with capped out teams trying to land Butler.

[Whole Truth]

The Timberwolves will meet with restricted free agent point guard D’Angelo Russell at the start of free agency, reports Chris Haynes of Yahoo Sports (via Twitter).

The Nets, who have been strongly linked to Kyrie Irving, could theoretically agree to sign-and-trade Russell to Minnesota, but Brooklyn reportedly has no interest in taking on Andrew Wiggins or Jeff Teague, who would be the Wolves’ most realistic salary-matching pieces.

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/06/timberwolves-to-meet-with-dangelo-russell.html

[Whole Truth]

Keith Smith
✔
@KeithSmithNBA

Told that D'Angelo Russell's team would not have set a meeting with the Minnesota Timberwolves without assurances Wolves could clear the necessary cap space to sign Russell. Minnesota has made it clear they believe they can get to the $27.25M max space necessary to sign Russell.

545
2:19 PM - Jun 29, 2019

Wiggins has removed references from his Instagram account.

[Whole Truth]

Verified account

@wojespn
Follow
Follow @wojespn

More
Kemba Walker plans to be in Boston on Sunday to finalize a formal agreement with the Celtics, league sources tell ESPN.
1:38 PM - 29 Jun 2019


Shams Charania
✔
@ShamsCharania


Kemba Walker plans to commit to a four-year, $141M maximum contract with the Boston Celtics after free agency opens on Sunday, league sources tell @TheAthleticNBA @Stadium.

7,561
4:37 PM - Jun 29, 2019

[Whole Truth]

Having used all their practical cap space to sign Walker, if Boston wants Capela they might have to trade Smart into cap space.

[Whole Truth]

Adrian Wojnarowski
✔
@wojespn


Nets will be willing to work with Russell and his reps on ways to get him to a team of his choice, including sign-and-trade scenarios, league sources tell ESPN. If Russell and Nets found a sign-and-trade deal that works for both, obviously, there's no need to renounce his rights.

5,451
6:14 PM - Jun 29, 2019

[SD2042]

Keith Smith
✔
@KeithSmithNBA

Told that D'Angelo Russell's team would not have set a meeting with the Minnesota Timberwolves without assurances Wolves could clear the necessary cap space to sign Russell. Minnesota has made it clear they believe they can get to the $27.25M max space necessary to sign Russell.

545
2:19 PM - Jun 29, 2019

Wiggins has removed references from his Instagram account.

When there is smoke, the fire follows. I'm thinking these assurances will take a couple of days to get this mystery deal struck. All the NBA World can do is wait and see.

[Whole Truth]

Keith Smith
✔
@KeithSmithNBA

Told that D'Angelo Russell's team would not have set a meeting with the Minnesota Timberwolves without assurances Wolves could clear the necessary cap space to sign Russell. Minnesota has made it clear they believe they can get to the $27.25M max space necessary to sign Russell.

545
2:19 PM - Jun 29, 2019

Wiggins has removed references from his Instagram account.

When there is smoke, the fire follows. I'm thinking these assurances will take a couple of days to get this mystery deal struck. All the NBA World can do is wait and see.

I read a suns article recently that mentioned something I had not given thought too. It mentioned the team that Lands Russel between Suns & Minnesota could attract the 3rd friend of the group, whether that's Kat to the Suns or Booker to Minnesota when both become UFA's in 2024. So the race for Russell could be more important than I originally thought. The trio would be 27 at that point & in their primes.

-7 in cap space with a need for Russell, dumping salary is very important to Minnesota because they could stand to lose more than Russell in FA.

Kyrie to Brooklyn
Kemba to Boston
Conley to Utah
Rubio to Pacers

The fact that LA traded away Russell is working against them?.
Kat, friend 1, leverage to Minnesota?
Booker, friend 2, leverage to Suns?
Team that lands Russell, leverage on 3rd friend in FA.

Which remaining teams with cap & a need for a PG would take Teague into space?. (Orlando, Suns, Charlotte, LA?)

If Memphis play their cards right there's alot of leverage there in taking on Minnesota's bad contracts .. for pure cap space.

Both Cavs & Memphis pushed back 2 non guaranteed contracts that could save roughly 10m in Smith & Bradley paying them an extra mil for it.

I think it's possible Cavs drafted Garland despite having Sexton, with the idea one of the 2 (Minnesota/Suns) will lose out on Russell.

[Whole Truth]

Jonas had a 24m cap hold - signed for 3/45, 15m per.

Opted out of 17m to take less with no added yrs, when he could have kept the 17m & extended 2yrs. Combined with Bradley having his guaranteed contract pushed back. I'm assuming Memphis is up to something with that TPE.

Considering what Vuc got, this signing was an absolute steal for Memphis

13 & 9 on 8 APG with Raptors, in 22mins, extrapolated to 19 & 10 on 14 APG with Memphis, in 28mins on slightly less efficiency

Jonas / Noah?
Jaren / Clarke
-
-
Ja

Another good job by this Memphis front office. Hope they bring back Noah as well. That would be one of the best front courts in the league.