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Bruno is the greatest player to ever wear a Grizzlies jersey, hands down.

Ironically I think the team decided to tank this game after losing the last two and then we pulled out a win.

VCfor3 wrote:Ironically I think the team decided to tank this game after losing the last two and then we pulled out a win.

They've been tanking for a while VC but not a complete tank because they want to make sure they can potentially convey the pick next year. That's the only logical reason I can come up with that the team is capable of beating all teams vying or in the playoffs but can't win 1 game vs non playoff, tanking teams.

Outside of a 1 point loss to the Spurs, a blown 13 point lead to OKC & 1 possession OT loss to the Magic with the same 7 rotation players out, Memphis could have beaten Spurs, LA, Portland, Utah, Magic 2x, Houston, OKC 2x while losing to every single non playoff tanking team they have faced in the same span. Bulls 2x, Cavs, Atlanta, Washington, Minnesota who have switched gears & are openly tanking for draft position. That's too much variance to not be purposeful.

The team has shown it can hang & they still have the potential to add 3-4 quality young rotation players to roster next year, including a wing or future PG in this draft. Personally, I'd be leaning towards drafting a quality SG/SF to pair with Conley in the backcourt.

- Jonas, Noah, Rabb, Jackson in small ball 5 - how many teams better, deeper more versatile at C than Memphis?. not many, if any
- Jackson, Bruno - the 20yo Jackson is already good with a lot of room for growth, his ceiling is what could make Memphis a true contender or not & if Bruno plays more like he did tonight quality depth, probably could use a SF/PF depth option if Memphis plays small with Jackson at the 5.

IMO, your teams front court is a team strength & should be set for the foreseeable future.

- Conley, Delon, Carter, Dorsey - The PG position is led by an Allstar caliber PG, with several depth options behind him. Due to Conley's age, Memphis might want to draft a future replacement but if they don't, they can use Conley to convey next year & flip his value, if necessary.

In my brief estimation your team has 3 positions of quality. I haven't seen Anderson, Brooks play to fully comment on your wing rotation but from what I have seen I think if your team hits on a SG/SF prospect in the draft they could be conveying in the teens next year with a strong young base to build off of.

IMO, Memphis should toy with the idea of consolidating some of the young players for an upgrade/fit or future draft assets. It will help control the cap situation, while trimming fat which is also important as a team is only as strong as it's weakest link. If Memphis want to convey next year they're going to have to value possessions.

Whole Truth wrote:

VCfor3 wrote:Ironically I think the team decided to tank this game after losing the last two and then we pulled out a win.

They've been tanking for a while VC but not a complete tank because they want to make sure they can potentially convey the pick next year. That's the only logical reason I can come up with that the team is capable of beating all teams vying or in the playoffs but can't win 1 game vs non playoff, tanking teams.

Outside of a 1 point loss to the Spurs, a blown 13 point lead to OKC & 1 possession OT loss to the Magic with the same 7 rotation players out, Memphis could have beaten Spurs, LA, Portland, Utah, Magic 2x, Houston, OKC 2x while losing to every single non playoff tanking team they have faced in the same span. Bulls 2x, Cavs, Atlanta, Washington, Minnesota who have switched gears & are openly tanking for draft position. That's too much variance to not be purposeful.

The team has shown it can hang & they still have the potential to add 3-4 quality young rotation players to roster next year, including a wing or future PG in this draft. Personally, I'd be leaning towards drafting a quality SG/SF to pair with Conley in the backcourt.

- Jonas, Noah, Rabb, Jackson in small ball 5 - how many teams better, deeper more versatile at C than Memphis?. not many, if any
- Jackson, Bruno - the 20yo Jackson is already good with a lot of room for growth, his ceiling is what could make Memphis a true contender or not & if Bruno plays more like he did tonight quality depth, probably could use a SF/PF depth option if Memphis plays small with Jackson at the 5.

IMO, your teams front court is a team strength & should be set for the foreseeable future.

- Conley, Delon, Carter, Dorsey - The PG position is led by an Allstar caliber PG, with several depth options behind him. Due to Conley's age, Memphis might want to draft a future replacement but if they don't, they can use Conley to convey next year & flip his value, if necessary.

In my brief estimation your team has 3 positions of quality. I haven't seen Anderson, Brooks play to fully comment on your wing rotation but from what I have seen I think if your team hits on a SG/SF prospect in the draft they could be conveying in the teens next year with a strong young base to build off of.

IMO, Memphis should toy with the idea of consolidating some of the young players for an upgrade/fit or future draft assets. It will help control the cap situation, while trimming fat which is also important as a team is only as strong as it's weakest link. If Memphis want to convey next year they're going to have to value possessions.

So my take is that Memphis has been loosely trying to convey their pick. Kind of a "eh we can try to convey but if we don't not a big deal" type philosophy. Our problem is that JB either is a terrible coach (which I think is the case) or he was told to tank. His rotations have been questionable all year and honestly I think we are better letting the team figure something out on the fly than let him draw up a play out of a time out. Resting Conley was likely more to keep him healthy than to try and tank until last night. Conley was rested on back to backs against the perceived better team.

Dorsey we got basically for free and he hasn't done anything special until the last few games. Bruno also wasn't particularly great outside of a couple games until late as well. Carter is the bulldog on defense we expected but his offense is still pretty rough. Rabb actually was playing pretty well this year and then JB stopped playing him and threw him out of rhythm. Brooks I see as an ok role player starter type or a good 6th man moving forward. Anderson I actually really like. Very good defender and when they ran him as a point-forward, him and JJJ were a pretty solid duo with great chemistry.

I don't think we have a great way of combining talent since most of those players aren't worth another team giving up much for. We also aren't moving future picks since we are getting a little low on 2nds and already owe a 1st to Boston.

Personally I don't particularly care if we try to tank or convey at this point since I don't think the results will actually be all that different unfortunately. We need a large shake up in the FO and JB unfortunately needs to be replaced as well. Otherwise conveying or not is a moot point.

VCfor3 wrote:So my take is that Memphis has been loosely trying to convey their pick. Kind of a "eh we can try to convey but if we don't not a big deal" type philosophy. Our problem is that JB either is a terrible coach (which I think is the case) or he was told to tank. His rotations have been questionable all year and honestly I think we are better letting the team figure something out on the fly than let him draw up a play out of a time out. Resting Conley was likely more to keep him healthy than to try and tank until last night. Conley was rested on back to backs against the perceived better team.

Dorsey we got basically for free and he hasn't done anything special until the last few games. Bruno also wasn't particularly great outside of a couple games until late as well. Carter is the bulldog on defense we expected but his offense is still pretty rough. Rabb actually was playing pretty well this year and then JB stopped playing him and threw him out of rhythm. Brooks I see as an ok role player starter type or a good 6th man moving forward. Anderson I actually really like. Very good defender and when they ran him as a point-forward, him and JJJ were a pretty solid duo with great chemistry.

I don't think we have a great way of combining talent since most of those players aren't worth another team giving up much for. We also aren't moving future picks since we are getting a little low on 2nds and already owe a 1st to Boston.

Personally I don't particularly care if we try to tank or convey at this point since I don't think the results will actually be all that different unfortunately. We need a large shake up in the FO and JB unfortunately needs to be replaced as well. Otherwise conveying or not is a moot point.

Can't watch the current state of value & view it as static, especially with young assets. For example, some Raptors fans were saying Pascal was nothing more than a bench player up to this season because he was struggling to shoot from range, teams would just sag off of him defensively where Raptors would be playing 4 on 5 offensively, he basically had to get out in transition to find success off the bench last year. Now that Pascal has found opportunity & fit in the starting rotation with improved range, those same fans probably deem him untouchable, that perception of value changed within a year.

A winning environment & culture, bolsters value & perception.

I haven't seen enough of JB to know why you would attribute the high variance of Memphis practically sweeping all the good teams they've faced & losing to all the bad teams they've faced, to poor coaching?.

Donovan basically admitted after the OKC game, that he was outcoached. It's easy to nitpick when a team is losing, no coach is without fault or error. I'll say this. Chemistry, consistency & role definition is a key ingredient to building a winning culture. Can't just throw the towel in on the low points & continually start over, progression is made from mistakes & patience is a virtue.

I also think your team is a lot closer to relevancy than you seem to think. They could easily be vying for a playoff spot next season with the ceiling of Jackson, Anderson, Brooks & potentially the top 8 pick still unanswered, which if they develop improves your teams chances of becoming a contender internally.

I'm basically saying like a baby, you have to crawl before you can walk. No team will go from lotto to contender without learning how to walk. Memphis is in that learning process & they will be walking before you know it.

Whole Truth wrote:

VCfor3 wrote:So my take is that Memphis has been loosely trying to convey their pick. Kind of a "eh we can try to convey but if we don't not a big deal" type philosophy. Our problem is that JB either is a terrible coach (which I think is the case) or he was told to tank. His rotations have been questionable all year and honestly I think we are better letting the team figure something out on the fly than let him draw up a play out of a time out. Resting Conley was likely more to keep him healthy than to try and tank until last night. Conley was rested on back to backs against the perceived better team.

Dorsey we got basically for free and he hasn't done anything special until the last few games. Bruno also wasn't particularly great outside of a couple games until late as well. Carter is the bulldog on defense we expected but his offense is still pretty rough. Rabb actually was playing pretty well this year and then JB stopped playing him and threw him out of rhythm. Brooks I see as an ok role player starter type or a good 6th man moving forward. Anderson I actually really like. Very good defender and when they ran him as a point-forward, him and JJJ were a pretty solid duo with great chemistry.

I don't think we have a great way of combining talent since most of those players aren't worth another team giving up much for. We also aren't moving future picks since we are getting a little low on 2nds and already owe a 1st to Boston.

Personally I don't particularly care if we try to tank or convey at this point since I don't think the results will actually be all that different unfortunately. We need a large shake up in the FO and JB unfortunately needs to be replaced as well. Otherwise conveying or not is a moot point.

Can't watch the current state of value & view it as static, especially with young assets. For example, some Raptors fans were saying Pascal was nothing more than a bench player up to this season because he was struggling to shoot from range, teams would just sag off of him defensively where Raptors would be playing 4 on 5 offensively, he basically had to get out in transition to find success off the bench last year. Now that Pascal has found opportunity & fit in the starting rotation with improved range, those same fans probably deem him untouchable, that perception of value changed within a year.

A winning environment & culture, bolsters value & perception.

I haven't seen enough of JB to know why you would attribute the high variance of Memphis practically sweeping all the good teams they've faced & losing to all the bad teams they've faced, to poor coaching?.

Donovan basically admitted after the OKC game, that he was outcoached. It's easy to nitpick when a team is losing, no coach is without fault or error. I'll say this. Chemistry, consistency & role definition is a key ingredient to building a winning culture. Can't just throw the towel in on the low points & continually start over, progression is made from mistakes & patience is a virtue.

I also think your team is a lot closer to relevancy than you seem to think. They could easily be vying for a playoff spot next season with the ceiling of Jackson, Anderson, Brooks & potentially the top 8 pick still unanswered, which if they develop improves your teams chances of becoming a contender internally.

I'm basically saying like a baby, you have to crawl before you can walk. No team will go from lotto to contender without learning how to walk. Memphis is in that learning process & they will be walking before you know it.

I still say our young guys won't be worth a ton until they can prove that they can perform at a high level more consistently. If they finish the last few games of the season strong then yes they could have some value at that point. If they go back to having some rough games I feel like you won't be able to get much more than a mid to late 2nd in a trade. You still can make some savy trades and get a reclamation project from another team that becomes part of your core but it'll be tough. If you are looking at consolidation past this summer then yes some of those guys could definitely turn a corner and be worth something of substance like Pascal. I was just focusing on what the Grizzlies could do over the next few months to lay the foundation for their future.

As for our team's talent level, I agree that we could be quite good next season. I don't know if we actually make the playoffs but we would be competitive and in the mix till late. I think conveying the pick would be highly likely (outside Top 10 too) as long as we don't trade away Conley and Val. The FO though will likely be listening to offers on Conley this summer so keeping him to convey the pick may cost you a 1st+additional asset (another protected 1st, young player, or 2nd or two).

As far as the beginning win streak, some of that was chemistry and a sizeable chunk of that was Gasol playing very well. He was a monster and DPOY candidate until the game where he tweaked his foot and kept playing on it. We also had Mack playing above his head before plummeting back to earth. Add in a few injuries and it was a recipe for us to have a rough stretch. Even during the winning stretch, we lost some games due to poor closing lineups. JB has had some decent coaching games, but overall he has had a poor season in regards to the aspects of the game he can control (plenty of blame for losing should be directed elsewhere as well). I actually think Dave and Hollins were good coaches and Fiz was so so though he was fired for off court reasons. JB has things he is good at and I think that he is a fantastic assistant coach where his strengths are highlighted and weaknesses cover up. He just isn't as great as a head coach right now though he certainly could figure things out and do well in the future.

I think Memphis could further retool this summer with their pick and return to a sorta treadmill state of competitiveness for a quite a while where we are right on the border of making the playoffs. As Conley declines JJJ, Brooks, and our pick plus other young guys will improve. If that is what Memphis wants, and plenty of fans do, then that is a fine plan going forward. If you want a chance to really be in the mix though we need to add high end young talent which is easier with higher picks though never guaranteed. If we convey this year, we can move Conley and maybe JV for assets while getting a high pick in 2020 and 2021 to help create a hopefully solid young core. Maybe get a few later 1sts from the trades to add some additional role players and you could have a great foundation plus cap space to really put together a competitive team. It is certainly a more risky plan since you could blow the picks and end up as a tanking team for years, but the potential reward is much greater.

PS: Local fans would love to snag Wiseman with a top pick in the 2020 draft if he plays well at UofM and he would sell a ton of tickets.

EDIT: I'm bashing on JB but again there are things he is good at. He seems to have good relationships with the players and I don't think he is the worst coach in the league. It is only his first year with the Grizzlies so he is still figuring things out. I still don't think he is necessarily a good coach and probably should be replaced but it wouldn't be the craziest thing if he is retained.

VCfor3 wrote:I still say our young guys won't be worth a ton until they can prove that they can perform at a high level more consistently. If they finish the last few games of the season strong then yes they could have some value at that point. If they go back to having some rough games I feel like you won't be able to get much more than a mid to late 2nd in a trade. You still can make some savy trades and get a reclamation project from another team that becomes part of your core but it'll be tough. If you are looking at consolidation past this summer then yes some of those guys could definitely turn a corner and be worth something of substance like Pascal. I was just focusing on what the Grizzlies could do over the next few months to lay the foundation for their future.

As for our team's talent level, I agree that we could be quite good next season. I don't know if we actually make the playoffs but we would be competitive and in the mix till late. I think conveying the pick would be highly likely (outside Top 10 too) as long as we don't trade away Conley and Val. The FO though will likely be listening to offers on Conley this summer so keeping him to convey the pick may cost you a 1st+additional asset (another protected 1st, young player, or 2nd or two).

As far as the beginning win streak, some of that was chemistry and a sizeable chunk of that was Gasol playing very well. He was a monster and DPOY candidate until the game where he tweaked his foot and kept playing on it. We also had Mack playing above his head before plummeting back to earth. Add in a few injuries and it was a recipe for us to have a rough stretch. Even during the winning stretch, we lost some games due to poor closing lineups. JB has had some decent coaching games, but overall he has had a poor season in regards to the aspects of the game he can control (plenty of blame for losing should be directed elsewhere as well). I actually think Dave and Hollins were good coaches and Fiz was so so though he was fired for off court reasons. JB has things he is good at and I think that he is a fantastic assistant coach where his strengths are highlighted and weaknesses cover up. He just isn't as great as a head coach right now though he certainly could figure things out and do well in the future.

I think Memphis could further retool this summer with their pick and return to a sorta treadmill state of competitiveness for a quite a while where we are right on the border of making the playoffs. As Conley declines JJJ, Brooks, and our pick plus other young guys will improve. If that is what Memphis wants, and plenty of fans do, then that is a fine plan going forward. If you want a chance to really be in the mix though we need to add high end young talent which is easier with higher picks though never guaranteed. If we convey this year, we can move Conley and maybe JV for assets while getting a high pick in 2020 and 2021 to help create a hopefully solid young core. Maybe get a few later 1sts from the trades to add some additional role players and you could have a great foundation plus cap space to really put together a competitive team. It is certainly a more risky plan since you could blow the picks and end up as a tanking team for years, but the potential reward is much greater.

PS: Local fans would love to snag Wiseman with a top pick in the 2020 draft if he plays well at UofM and he would sell a ton of tickets.

EDIT: I'm bashing on JB but again there are things he is good at. He seems to have good relationships with the players and I don't think he is the worst coach in the league. It is only his first year with the Grizzlies so he is still figuring things out. I still don't think he is necessarily a good coach and probably should be replaced but it wouldn't be the craziest thing if he is retained.

I remember the start of the Raptors success. Fans wanted to tank for Wiggins & Masai came in with the intent to blow up Colangelo's base core (Jonas, Gay, DeRozan, Lowry, tank worthy bench fielded) for that opportunity. It's almost an identical situation. Masai traded Gay early in the season as the team stumbled out the gate. He was traded for 3 role players to break down his large contract, which became the Raptors bench depth. Raptors started to win games post trade but Masai still had Lowry on the table to the Knicks who nixed the trade for rookie THJ (talk about Masai dodging a bullet). Raptors had rookie Jonas, 3rd year pre Allstar DeRozan, Lowry & the improved bench depth from the Gay trade. They won 48 games & never looked back averaging 50 wins the last 7 seasons with holes & a revolving door at SF & PF after trading Gay in an attempt to tank.

If Masai had managed to tank the roster for a chance at Wiggins, Cavs I think with the 8th or 9th pick jumped everyone to win the #1 overall pick, which was traded for Love. If Raptors had lucked into drafting Wiggins, the player didn't pan out even close to his hype. (One player of interest is like a needle in a hay stack) a lot would have to go right to hit that bullseye. Your better off making a draft day trade. Who knows, Memphis might have a winning year where players bolster their value enough they can be used for that consolidation for that trade into the draft, without wasting the season...

How similar a situation?

Raptors/Memphis

Rookie Jonas < Prime Jonas
Bargnani < Rookie Jackson
Salmons = Parsons
DeRozan > Bradley
Lowry = Conley

Bench < Noah/Bruno/Anderson/Brooks/Delon/Holiday/Miles/Carter

The basic difference is a primary scoring wing, who plays poor defense (DeRozan) Where Memphis + top 8 pick can be used to draft a quality 2 way wing or luck into the top half of the draft. (IMO mistake to convey)

How similar?, Memphis are toying with trading Conley to tank the roster. Only problem is there will be no Dolan to nix the trade.

I'm glad that you made the distinction JB is a rookie head coach & with it comes a learning curve. Too many people criticize unfairly. It took Casey a couple years to iron out several issues he struggled with as well & even though he won COY through 6, 50 win seasons, he still has some issues. The main one being that he's predictable. How predictable? Cavs never had to change their game plan against him through 3 different series matchups. That approach is good for building a foundation, as you see his impact in Detroit. (Predictable consistency & role definition + players buying in). From what little I have seen, JB has the players buying in playing hard with nothing to play for, I'd give him some rope.

I think it would be a mistake to move Jonas without at least attempting to build his value. He's capable of maintaining his current level of play where his value was suppressed in Toronto based in usage & team philosophy. He's been playing like this in limited mins since his rookie season, the only difference is minutes & a coach that has given him freedom to play.

I'd keep Conley too but if one of NY, Boston or LA get desperate losing out on Kyrie then it would depend on how desperate those teams are... Lakers are tanking for a 2019 1st but he won't be playing with Lebron.