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Potential Offseason Moves

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VCfor3
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Re: Potential Offseason Moves 

Post#121 » by VCfor3 » Thu May 30, 2019 2:11 am

Whole Truth wrote:I see some Memphis fans are still behind the idea of dumping Jonas for a clean rebuild. These people have no clue what building is, it's progression & losing potential assets, is not progression. They want to take a step back to move forward but don't realize a move forward after stepping back, is not guaranteed, that's not progression, that's hope, therefore not building. Jonas is 27, improving & entering his prime. He's at the very least, an asset, as I'm about to prove.

One person claimed it comical that Jonas could average 20pts for Memphis. Let me illustrate the joke.

Gasol with Memphis, 34 mins, 22.3 usage rate

15.7 pts / 7.5 rbs - (13.4 FGA) 44 FG% / 34 3pt% / 75 FT% / 54 TS% - (106 Ortg / 106 Drtg)

Jonas with Memphis, 27.7 mins, 31.4 usage rate

19.9 pts / 10.7 rbs - (14.7 FGA) 54 FG% / 27 3pt% / 76 FT% / 60 TS% - (109 Ortg / 105 Drtg)

With one more shot attempt per game than Gasol & higher dependability rate with half your team sitting, Jonas averaged 19.9 pts in under 30mins for Memphis with better efficiency than Gasol even though (Jackson, Anderson, Brooks & sometimes Conley) were sitting post trade. He averaged 13 & 9 for the Raptors on 8 shot attempts per game, with 98% of his playing time coming against starters & people think it's a joke that he could average 20pts for Memphis next season if given more touches & mins in a rebuild, lol. Now to further prove the point, lets take a look at Gasol in Jonas role with the Raptors.

Gasol with Raptors, 25 mins, 12.6% usage rate

9.1 pts / 5.7 rbs - (7.2 FGA) 46 FG% / 44% 3pt% / 56 TS% - (116 Ortg / 104 Drtg)

Jonas with Raptors, 19 mins, 25% usage rate

12.8 pts / 7.2 rbs - (8.6 FGA) 57 FG% / 30 3pt% / 80 FT% / 64 TS% - (121 Ortg / 103 Drtg)

Kawhi has been carrying the Raptors starters offensively, Gasol's lower usage rate should have led to higher efficiency but it hasn't. He's a career 35% from 3, in Toronto he's shooting 44% from 3, well above his average because the majority of his attempts are unguarded, wide open looks, thanks to the attention Kawhi is drawing. He's rebounding 2 less boards with 6 additional minutes, where in a similar 27 mins, Jonas averaged 10.7 rbs for Memphis. Gasol if not for his wide open 3pt shooting, is averaging 18% in the post despite teams playing forwards & switching guards onto him without fear of being post up. Raptors are a poor rebounding team that preferred Jonas play inside but he's been a capable 3 pt shooter since his rookie season. Averaged 40% on 74 attempts last year, when finally asked of him. It's a viable, undeveloped aspect of his game that Memphis can explore in a rebuild. Jonas didn't get much opportunity to play with Kawhi due to Pascal's promotion. Nurse increased his usage off the bench to help carry a struggling bench unit offensively, where he maintained his efficiency.

People will argue the defensive aspect of Jonas game. Gasol has been worse guarding in space than Jonas, he's been at his best in the post, not getting backed down. Any time teams got Gasol moving it resulted in wide open opportunity, hit or miss. Raptors clogged the paint & sent double teams on Vuc & Embiid against 2 poor shooting teams, which aided. After game 2 against the Bucks, where they were down 0-2, on the back of poor performances from Gasol on both ends, Nurse realized they can sag on Giannis to clog the paint, prevent the drive & dish, resulting in Giannis having to take & make 3's in the closing 2 games. Raptors also got fortunate that both Norm & FVV stepped up their shooting game not unlike when they beat the Bucks under the same circumstances the last time they met in the playoffs. Exception being, Kawhi is far better than DeRozan on both ends.

Memphis have a player who's still growing defensively, now hitting his prime, that could blow up his value & people are not interested in retention, lol, now that's comical.


I'm fine with moving JV. I'm not giving him away for free and like how he fits with JJJ over the next couple years as JJJ fills out, but he isn't someone I'm holding on to at all costs. If we can move him for a younger piece that fits our core then you do it. Otherwise, JV is good to have around and is likely an asset later at the trade deadline (I think JV likely signs elsewhere as a FA).

Gasol was a better anchor for our defense but had to overhelp to cover for other people and wasn't able to recover quick enough. JV doesn't overhelp so that is why you think JV can defend the perimeter better. It is the perimeter and the PnR especially where JV gets in trouble. He was solid as a defender around the basket and honestly his defense isn't something that should be all that concerning to Memphis. It is only problematic when in the playoffs and getting targeted by the opposing team. That rarely happens in the regular season. JV is a fantastic rebounder which is JJJ's weakness so that is super important. JV also can create his own shot which will help bail out our young guys when they are in trouble. Plus JV seems like a good dude. I think we should all hope he opts in just because it gives us flexibility next offseason to go after RFAs and then can try resigning JV with whatever is left. If he does opt out, we need to offer him a 2-3 year deal to try and keep him. I'd hate to lose him for nothing.
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Re: Potential Offseason Moves 

Post#122 » by Whole Truth » Thu May 30, 2019 3:07 pm

VCfor3 wrote: I'm fine with moving JV. I'm not giving him away for free and like how he fits with JJJ over the next couple years as JJJ fills out, but he isn't someone I'm holding on to at all costs. If we can move him for a younger piece that fits our core then you do it. Otherwise, JV is good to have around and is likely an asset later at the trade deadline (I think JV likely signs elsewhere as a FA).

Gasol was a better anchor for our defense but had to overhelp to cover for other people and wasn't able to recover quick enough. JV doesn't overhelp so that is why you think JV can defend the perimeter better. It is the perimeter and the PnR especially where JV gets in trouble. He was solid as a defender around the basket and honestly his defense isn't something that should be all that concerning to Memphis. It is only problematic when in the playoffs and getting targeted by the opposing team. That rarely happens in the regular season. JV is a fantastic rebounder which is JJJ's weakness so that is super important. JV also can create his own shot which will help bail out our young guys when they are in trouble. Plus JV seems like a good dude. I think we should all hope he opts in just because it gives us flexibility next offseason to go after RFAs and then can try resigning JV with whatever is left. If he does opt out, we need to offer him a 2-3 year deal to try and keep him. I'd hate to lose him for nothing.


I know your stance VC, it's open & a balanced point of view. What I'm not fine with are the false comments I keep seeing on Memphis boards.

- Jonas can't put up 20 pts, with more touchs, playing time, when he averaged 13pts, on 8 shots, in 22 mins, as an after thought.
- Jonas is not a starter, he can't even replace Ibaka, despite starting on a 50 win team for 6 seasons, 59 wins last year to be exact. Playing 98% of his minutes against starters, with DeRozan, who's not a good defender, not Kawhi.

This last year he was in fact split starting with Ibaka, mainly because the team didn't need his offense as much as the bench did & the fact that Jonas is BC's core piece & Ibaka was Masai's trade acquisition. He faced the traditional bigs & Raptors used Ibaka mostly against small ball teams. They were (23-7) before Jonas went down to injury in GS.

Those 7 losses - Bucks 2x, NO, Detroit, Boston, Denver, Brooklyn. (Raptors didn't beat Detroit all year, would lose 3 more times to them, without Jonas) making Brooklyn the only bad loss in 30 games in a stronger part of the schedule where Raptors were playing tough b2b games with Kawhi load management.

With Jonas injured & inactive, Raptors went 17-9 with Ibaka & Monroe.

In those 9 losses,

L - Portland, Myers Leonard, Zach Collins +16 abusing Monroe off the bench.
L - Denver, Jokic - 26 / 10 / 4
L - Philly, Embiid - 27 / 11 / 1
L - Orlando, Vuc - 30 / 19 / 8 / 2
L - Spurs, Aldridge - 23 / 5 (+24)
L - Boston, Horford - 24 / 7 / 2
L - Indiana, Thad Young - 23 / 15 / 3
L - Houston, Faried - 21 / 14 / 8
L - Bucks, Lopez - 11 / 6 / 3 (+18) 33 mins

Raptors in this stretch without Jonas were getting killed in the paint & on the boards, even in wins.

Post trade with Gasol, Raptors went 18-9 in the soft part of the schedule, where they faced several tanking teams.

2 wins vs NY
2 wins vs Bulls
1 win vs Washington
2 losses to Charlotte
1 loss to Cavs
2 wins vs Miami
1 win vs Min
1 win vs NO
1 win vs Lakers

6 of the 18 wins against playoff teams - Orlando, Portland, OKC, Brooklyn 2x, Boston

5 losses against playoff teams - Orlando, Houston, OKC, Detroit 2x

12 - 4 against non playoff teams.

Raptors went 23 - 7 with Jonas, 35 - 17 without for a 58 - 24 record where last year, with DeRozan, not Kawhi & Jonas starting 59 - 23. I can confidently state, If Jonas didn't go down to injury or get traded, Raptors would have won more than 60 games with Kawhi.

It goes without saying that in the 6 yrs Jonas started & the Raptors averaged 50 wins, he managed to help beat teams that played small, where if Ibaka had played the entire season, he would have been runned down & abused by teams that played big, which I illustrated in the stretch of games that Jonas was inactive with injury.
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Re: Potential Offseason Moves 

Post#123 » by VCfor3 » Thu May 30, 2019 3:17 pm

Whole Truth wrote:
VCfor3 wrote: I'm fine with moving JV. I'm not giving him away for free and like how he fits with JJJ over the next couple years as JJJ fills out, but he isn't someone I'm holding on to at all costs. If we can move him for a younger piece that fits our core then you do it. Otherwise, JV is good to have around and is likely an asset later at the trade deadline (I think JV likely signs elsewhere as a FA).

Gasol was a better anchor for our defense but had to overhelp to cover for other people and wasn't able to recover quick enough. JV doesn't overhelp so that is why you think JV can defend the perimeter better. It is the perimeter and the PnR especially where JV gets in trouble. He was solid as a defender around the basket and honestly his defense isn't something that should be all that concerning to Memphis. It is only problematic when in the playoffs and getting targeted by the opposing team. That rarely happens in the regular season. JV is a fantastic rebounder which is JJJ's weakness so that is super important. JV also can create his own shot which will help bail out our young guys when they are in trouble. Plus JV seems like a good dude. I think we should all hope he opts in just because it gives us flexibility next offseason to go after RFAs and then can try resigning JV with whatever is left. If he does opt out, we need to offer him a 2-3 year deal to try and keep him. I'd hate to lose him for nothing.


I know your stance VC, it's open & a balanced point of view. What I'm not fine with are the false comments I keep seeing on Memphis boards.

- Jonas can't put up 20 pts, with more touchs, playing time, when he averaged 13pts, on 8 shots, in 22 mins, as an after thought.
- Jonas is not a starter, he can't even replace Ibaka, despite starting on a 50 win team for 6 seasons, 59 wins last year to be exact. Playing 98% of his minutes against starters, with DeRozan, who's not a good defender, not Kawhi.

This last year he was in fact split starting with Ibaka, mainly because the team didn't need his offense as much as the bench did & the fact that Jonas is BC's core piece & Ibaka was Masai's trade acquisition. He faced the traditional bigs & Raptors used Ibaka mostly against small ball teams. They were (23-7) before Jonas went down to injury in GS.

Those 7 losses - Bucks 2x, NO, Detroit, Boston, Denver, Brooklyn. (Raptors didn't beat Detroit all year, would lose 3 more times to them, without Jonas) making Brooklyn the only bad loss in 30 games in a stronger part of the schedule where Raptors were playing tough b2b games with Kawhi load management.

With Jonas injured & inactive, Raptors went 17-9 with Ibaka & Monroe.

In those 9 losses,

L - Portland, Myers Leonard, Zach Collins +16 abusing Monroe off the bench.
L - Denver, Jokic - 26 / 10 / 4
L - Philly, Embiid - 27 / 11 / 1
L - Orlando, Vuc - 30 / 19 / 8 / 2
L - Spurs, Aldridge - 23 / 5 (+24)
L - Boston, Horford - 24 / 7 / 2
L - Indiana, Thad Young - 23 / 15 / 3
L - Houston, Faried - 21 / 14 / 8
L - Bucks, Lopez - 11 / 6 / 3 (+18) 33 mins

Raptors in this stretch without Jonas were getting killed in the paint & on the boards, even in wins.

Post trade with Gasol, Raptors went 18-9 in the soft part of the schedule, where they faced several tanking teams.

2 wins vs NY
2 wins vs Bulls
1 win vs Washington
2 losses to Charlotte
1 loss to Cavs
2 wins vs Miami
1 win vs Min
1 win vs NO
1 win vs Lakers

6 of the 18 wins against playoff teams - Orlando, Portland, OKC, Brooklyn 2x, Boston

5 losses against playoff teams - Orlando, Houston, OKC, Detroit 2x

12 - 4 against non playoff teams.

Raptors went 23 - 7 with Jonas, 35 - 17 without for a 58 - 24 record where last year, with DeRozan, not Kawhi & Jonas starting 59 - 23. I can confidently state, If Jonas didn't go down to injury or get traded, Raptors would have won more than 60 games with Kawhi.

It goes without saying that in the 6 yrs Jonas started & the Raptors averaged 50 wins, he managed to help beat teams that played small, where if Ibaka had played the entire season, he would have been runned down & abused by teams that played big, which I illustrated in the stretch of games that Jonas was inactive with injury.


Fair. I kinda avoid the Memphis board since they are all over the place and can be quite frustrating ha. I think JV would average 20 ppg and 10+ rebounds on the Grizzlies next year. He is a good starting caliber center who happens to have one weakness (PnR defense) that can potentially cause him to be limited in certain playoff situations. Don't let those fans who aren't as well informed get you down. The *hopefully* competent FO people are the ones actually in charge of personnel decisions and they are aware of the value JV brings to our team.
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Re: Potential Offseason Moves 

Post#124 » by Whole Truth » Thu May 30, 2019 3:58 pm

VCfor3 wrote: Fair. I kinda avoid the Memphis board since they are all over the place and can be quite frustrating ha. I think JV would average 20 ppg and 10+ rebounds on the Grizzlies next year. He is a good starting caliber center who happens to have one weakness (PnR defense) that can potentially cause him to be limited in certain playoff situations. Don't let those fans who aren't as well informed get you down. The *hopefully* competent FO people are the ones actually in charge of personnel decisions and they are aware of the value JV brings to our team.


I've seen that board use the term JV hive, so I know a lot of that misconception has originated from Raptors fans, not uninformed opinion. DeRozan fans blame Jonas a role player for (DeRozan) the high usage star, for not being able to get over that Cavs hump in the playoffs, despite not being able to do it with any of Ibaka, Biz or Peoltl, 3 defensive bigs in place of Jonas. Do yourself a favor & watch last years game 1 vs Cavs & then game 4.

In game 1 Jonas puts up a 20/20 game that they lose at the buzzer so they go away from him, by game 4 assuming he's the defensive issue, they start Ibaka over him, Raptors were down 30 by the 3rd Q, with DeRozan -27 when ejected out of frustration. The role player was the issue, when JR & Korver abuse our star player on both ends.

Give it time, you'll also see Jonas is not as bad defensively as perceived. He's played 98% of his minutes with a poor defender in Derozan & against starting units, that will be as missleading on stats as a player playing well in garbage time.

Raptors as a result went out & drafted a defensive pnr big with quick feet in Peoltl for that very same reason. Peoltl was a defensive monster off the bench with a defensive unit but when he was asked to start in place of Jonas with Ibaka, OG, Derozan, Lowry he had a 125 Drtg in over 50mins with a unit Jonas had a 105 Drtg.

If Peoltl is a better defender, how is that possible?. How is it possible that such a liability along with DeRozan being a liability himself, that Raptors have been top 5 defensively for several seasons?.

If rebounding is a part of defense, Jonas averages 9 rebounds in 22 mins.

If offense plays a part in playing defense Jonas 64% efficiency plays a factor.

Is he slow footed, yes. Is he slower than Gasol, no. In the few games he played with Memphis post trade some Raptor fans noticed an immediate improvement in his defense, did it just click over night after not getting it for 6 yrs?.

Personally I'd try to retain his value now before he potentially blows up. A 3yr contract is not going to hurt Memphis in waiting on Ja & Jaren to develop. By the time they're ready to compete, Jonas might either be traded for assets or they'll be deciding whether to resign him or not. In short there would be no better use for that 15-20m than investing on a potential asset that might blow up in value.
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Re: Potential Offseason Moves 

Post#125 » by Whole Truth » Thu May 30, 2019 4:21 pm

” Ainge said on 98.5 The Sports Hub’s "Toucher & Rich" show earlier this year. “I think it’s more like an engagement and we’re going to get married on July 1. And I think that engagement is still on as far as I know in my individual conversations with Kyrie; still engaged but we can’t make those vows, sign that contract until July 1."
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Re: Potential Offseason Moves 

Post#126 » by Whole Truth » Thu May 30, 2019 4:31 pm

@elias_Zi How is a Mike Conley trade doable considering he's making over 30 million (32.5 for next season to be exact) and what would Memphis consider as a trade equivalent? I don't want the Bulls to give up this year's picks.
Conley is still an excellent player, but at this stage of the Bulls' rebuild, I can't see them adding another huge veteran contract on top of the two-year commitment they've already made to Otto Porter Jr. The Grizzlies would definitely want the Bulls No. 7 overall pick as they start their rebuild from the Grit 'n Grind era, and you'd probably have to include Kris Dunn or another player as a sweetener. The deal couldn't be made until after July 1st when the new salary cap kicks in. Adding Conley might give the Bulls a chance to compete for the 7th or 8th playoff spot next season, but at this point, I think the front office is thinking more long term at the point guard position.

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/mark-schanowskis-bulls-mailbag-nba-draft-edition
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Re: Potential Offseason Moves 

Post#127 » by Whole Truth » Thu May 30, 2019 6:10 pm

According to Barry Jackson of the Miami Herald, The Miami Heat are leaving the impression with other teams that there are 'no untouchables on the roster', including players such as Josh Richardson, Justise Winslow and Bam Adebayo. As the report states, the Heat are less inclined to trade Richardson, Winslow or Adebayo as opposed to several of their other roster pieces. There is a sense, however, that they could be acquired for the right price, signaling that Miami is intent on reshaping their roster for next season. Of the players listed here Adebayo could potentially hold the most trade value due to his very favorable contract.

Memphis trade - (Conley, Anderson) to Miami for (Anderson, Johnson, Adebayo, #13)

Adebayo is a small ball 5 where 3J is projected. Minnesota however, would love to pair Bam with Kat. If Memphis draft JA & want to push pace, Wiggins if nothing else, is a quick athlete that could potentially thrive in transition though he's been a bust so far. Potential reclamation target with JA in transition?. Memphis send R.Andersons 2 yrs for Wiggins 5 & eats 3 yrs to net an additional FRP.

Memphis flip - (R. Anderson, Adbayo) to Minnesota for (Wiggins, #11 & ask for a FRP)

Jonas / #11 (Hayes/Fernando) / Rabb
3J / Parsons / Johnson
Wiggins / Bruno / Miles
Holiday / #13 (K. Johnson) / Brooks
#2 Ja / Wright / Carter

+ Minnesota FRP.

Bam is traded for #11 where Memphis can draft one of 2 bigs that are better suited along side 3J, who's this teams small ball 5.
Conley to the Heat for #13 adds K.Johnson's SG/SF gritty 3&D offensive potential.
In taking on J.Johnson's & Wiggins negative contracts, they're both transition athletes who could potentially thrive playing with Ja, with the benefit of netting a FRP for eating 3yrs of Wiggins contract.
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Re: Potential Offseason Moves 

Post#128 » by Whole Truth » Thu May 30, 2019 6:20 pm

“From what I’m told, it’s not going to happen,” said Stephen A. Smith of ESPN. “I got a text message from folks close to Kyrie’s family, within the hour, as we were teasing this subject. Quote: ‘There is no way in hell he’s going to LA. I don’t give a damn what anybody says, knock that down for us right now please. He ain’t going to LA.’ That’s what they say.”

“I did a little digging around, and my feeling is very strongly that — while LeBron and Kyrie have kissed and made up — that Kyrie is not going there,” ESPN’s Jackie MacMullan said. “He’s just not. I just don’t believe it. And I think people close to him just don’t believe it either.”

http://amicohoops.net/those-close-to-kyrie-dont-think-lakers-in-play-in-free-agency/
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Re: Potential Offseason Moves 

Post#129 » by SD2042 » Fri May 31, 2019 3:22 am

Whole Truth wrote:
SD2042 wrote:Gordon would be an interesting player next to 3J. Both are athletic, dangerous in transition, weak side defenders. I will saay that 3J is the better perimeter player than AG is although it's not by miles. My concern however comes down to where 3J is right now physically, I wonder will his body be able to handle the demands of playing the center position in certain matchups. There are instances where he has found himself getting pushed out by stronger players in the post. He has been able to make it up based on his smarts and instincts. Although I'm intrigue by a potential tandum these two could bring. 3J's physically makes me wonder if he's better suited for the PF position rather than placing him at the center position for the seeable future.


As for Denver being a candidate, their name was mentioned after the trade deadline as a potential team for AD23 to hit up. AD needs to be around a solid cast of players that can take some of the pressure off of him as far as injuries are concern. It's also possible Denver could come up with someone else entirely and don't even covet AD23.

As for deals, you have a point that when a deal needs to be made that both sides benefit from it. Otherwise, if the deal can't be reached, then keep it moving.


I don't want to pin 3J down as a future C, he's a versatile defensive stretch big that I want Memphis to compliment in a big rotation with Jonas or in a small rotation with Gordon. This allows Memphis to have options in their style & pace of play. Same reasoning behind the best small ball team in the league picking up Cousins to counter teams capable of playing big against them.

In a big lineup I have Gordon at SF as a point forward & secondary playmaker, not a primary offensive option. At 23, he's still improving from range. Agree with you that in a small ball lineup with JA pushing the pace Memphis would be effective with 3J & Gordon at PF/C that's the appeal of the potential versatility. Teams however will try to get them to play in the half court, slower pace. This is where Jonas comes into play. Teams have historically played small to force Jonas off the court defensively, which would put teams into a pick your poison scenario with Memphis strength as a team. Jonas being very efficient in that setting.

With the 16th pick, I'd have Keldon Johnson lined up. A SG/SF who shot 38% from 3 while being characterized as inconsistent. His floor is a 3 & D wing that does the dirty work on both ends, those intangibles are winning plays that don't get hyped when talking about a players value. That being his floor combined with his offensive potential to be a shot creator with development. Love the fact that he's potentially available at 16, I'd take him a lot higher. (Conley, Anderson) for (Gordon, Johnson)

Jonas - Efficient post threat (5) defensively
3J - versatile defensive stretch big PF/C (1-5) defensively
Gordon - versatile defensive point forward SF/PF (1-4) defensively
#16 Keldon Johnson - 3&D floor SG/SF (1-4) defensively
Ja - Athletic playmaking guard (1) defensively

This team has 2 efficient bigs that can pnr or pop with Ja's playmaking ability surrounded by defensive versatility & floor spacers. As well as the versatility to move 3J to C if teams go small against Jonas.


Small ball - 3J / Gordon / Johnson / Holiday / Ja - (Delon over Holiday for a secondary ball handler)

Where do you think the Magic would be if Isaac was more consistent from 3 & you had Ja's potential at point?. Your answer is what I think this team is with the ceiling of 3J & Ja yet unknown as well as not knowing if KJ can develop offensively into a shot creator estimating that he'll be atleast 3 & D.

I'm not certain but I also don't think Magic have the versatility to run Isaac at C to play Gordon at PF the way Memphis can pair Gordon with 3J? I have Isaac down as a SF/PF from what I've seen along the lines of Pascal.



In a small ball unit, I can see these two could work when the conditions are necessary. The Magic tried Gordon at SF two seasons ago. Gordon defensively can fit as a SF as he's capable of making his oppoennt work for his points. Gordon on offense struggled mightly as he was in the process of working on developing his perimeter game. Although he is continuing to improve his offense, AG's offense isn't fluid and concise enough for him to be trusted at the SF position. His offesne is predicated to slashes, transition, dunks and methodical/impulsive perimeter offense. Placing AG at SF is how Danny Green is playing SG for the Raptors and previously the Spurs. Both defenses are reliable. Their offenses are not fluid to be playing outside of their true position on the ball.


As for Keldon Johnson, I do agree that he's a potential 3&D type of player based on his profile from most draft boards. I will question if consistency and the serious dedication are there for him.

If JI was consistent from the perimeter along with Ja and 3J on the squad? My take would be that this would be a team that can produce tempo on both ends. Spread out the offense from mid-range on back. Keep the defense on their heels. Defensively, the team will need more toughness and perhaps a couple of bruisers who can grab the boards as 3J has to continue to improve his physique overtime. A team like this wil have some potential to develop into a future contender.
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Re: Potential Offseason Moves 

Post#130 » by Whole Truth » Fri May 31, 2019 9:49 pm

SD2042 wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:
SD2042 wrote:Gordon would be an interesting player next to 3J. Both are athletic, dangerous in transition, weak side defenders. I will saay that 3J is the better perimeter player than AG is although it's not by miles. My concern however comes down to where 3J is right now physically, I wonder will his body be able to handle the demands of playing the center position in certain matchups. There are instances where he has found himself getting pushed out by stronger players in the post. He has been able to make it up based on his smarts and instincts. Although I'm intrigue by a potential tandum these two could bring. 3J's physically makes me wonder if he's better suited for the PF position rather than placing him at the center position for the seeable future.


As for Denver being a candidate, their name was mentioned after the trade deadline as a potential team for AD23 to hit up. AD needs to be around a solid cast of players that can take some of the pressure off of him as far as injuries are concern. It's also possible Denver could come up with someone else entirely and don't even covet AD23.

As for deals, you have a point that when a deal needs to be made that both sides benefit from it. Otherwise, if the deal can't be reached, then keep it moving.


I don't want to pin 3J down as a future C, he's a versatile defensive stretch big that I want Memphis to compliment in a big rotation with Jonas or in a small rotation with Gordon. This allows Memphis to have options in their style & pace of play. Same reasoning behind the best small ball team in the league picking up Cousins to counter teams capable of playing big against them.

In a big lineup I have Gordon at SF as a point forward & secondary playmaker, not a primary offensive option. At 23, he's still improving from range. Agree with you that in a small ball lineup with JA pushing the pace Memphis would be effective with 3J & Gordon at PF/C that's the appeal of the potential versatility. Teams however will try to get them to play in the half court, slower pace. This is where Jonas comes into play. Teams have historically played small to force Jonas off the court defensively, which would put teams into a pick your poison scenario with Memphis strength as a team. Jonas being very efficient in that setting.

With the 16th pick, I'd have Keldon Johnson lined up. A SG/SF who shot 38% from 3 while being characterized as inconsistent. His floor is a 3 & D wing that does the dirty work on both ends, those intangibles are winning plays that don't get hyped when talking about a players value. That being his floor combined with his offensive potential to be a shot creator with development. Love the fact that he's potentially available at 16, I'd take him a lot higher. (Conley, Anderson) for (Gordon, Johnson)

Jonas - Efficient post threat (5) defensively
3J - versatile defensive stretch big PF/C (1-5) defensively
Gordon - versatile defensive point forward SF/PF (1-4) defensively
#16 Keldon Johnson - 3&D floor SG/SF (1-4) defensively
Ja - Athletic playmaking guard (1) defensively

This team has 2 efficient bigs that can pnr or pop with Ja's playmaking ability surrounded by defensive versatility & floor spacers. As well as the versatility to move 3J to C if teams go small against Jonas.


Small ball - 3J / Gordon / Johnson / Holiday / Ja - (Delon over Holiday for a secondary ball handler)

Where do you think the Magic would be if Isaac was more consistent from 3 & you had Ja's potential at point?. Your answer is what I think this team is with the ceiling of 3J & Ja yet unknown as well as not knowing if KJ can develop offensively into a shot creator estimating that he'll be atleast 3 & D.

I'm not certain but I also don't think Magic have the versatility to run Isaac at C to play Gordon at PF the way Memphis can pair Gordon with 3J? I have Isaac down as a SF/PF from what I've seen along the lines of Pascal.



In a small ball unit, I can see these two could work when the conditions are necessary. The Magic tried Gordon at SF two seasons ago. Gordon defensively can fit as a SF as he's capable of making his oppoennt work for his points. Gordon on offense struggled mightly as he was in the process of working on developing his perimeter game. Although he is continuing to improve his offense, AG's offense isn't fluid and concise enough for him to be trusted at the SF position. His offesne is predicated to slashes, transition, dunks and methodical/impulsive perimeter offense. Placing AG at SF is how Danny Green is playing SG for the Raptors and previously the Spurs. Both defenses are reliable. Their offenses are not fluid to be playing outside of their true position on the ball.


As for Keldon Johnson, I do agree that he's a potential 3&D type of player based on his profile from most draft boards. I will question if consistency and the serious dedication are there for him.

If JI was consistent from the perimeter along with Ja and 3J on the squad? My take would be that this would be a team that can produce tempo on both ends. Spread out the offense from mid-range on back. Keep the defense on their heels. Defensively, the team will need more toughness and perhaps a couple of bruisers who can grab the boards as 3J has to continue to improve his physique overtime. A team like this wil have some potential to develop into a future contender.


This board doesn't have many posters but the content is good, nice breakdown SD, agree with most of it.

Just want to point out some potential differing factors.

When Gordon was asked to play SF, he wasn't as refined as he is now & in that development stage, he was asked to be a primary & or secondary offensive option. In his steady improvement, I expect him to be a 3rd-4th option here in Memphis behind Jonas, Jaren & JA when asked to play SF. He doesn't need to be fluid, he just needs to use his playmaking ability to get players involved & stick the open 3 with his improving consistency. Jaren can step out, when Jonas is abusing the post. This is an aspect of the game Isaac struggles with. Hard for Gordon to operate in the post & mid range with Vuc operating in that space & Isaac not being able to space the court. Raptors basically crowded the paint & sent doubles to shut down the post, while Issac missed open corner 3 after 3 off the 1-5 pnr. Magic won game 1 because of how well they shot the 3 ball, It wasn't just Augustin's hot 3pt shooting but Isaacs best game from behind the arc in the series.

When moved to PF, with Jonas off court, Gordon's offensive role will understandably increase where his offensive game is better suited to take up the offensive slack. I'm of the opinion Jonas & Jaren gives Memphis a better player dynamic for Gordon at the 3-4 than Orlando, with Vuc or Isaac though similar players. Jonas is more physical than Vuc, where Gordon is a little soft in the paint & Jaren has Isaac's defensive versatility but with more consistency from 3 which helps space the floor as a 4-5 where Gordon can better operate in the mid range as a facilitator. All tied in with Ja pushing better pace than Augustin, along with his court vision & passing ability to make better use of Gordon's athleticism & transition game.

Under the premise of building around Ja's game, I like the fact Gordon is a versatile transition player even with his lack of fluidity at SF. Doesn't hurt he's 23 & still improving. Memphis are at a point they could continue to test the waters, where Magic are ready for the playoffs. Memphis may even at some point move Jaren to the 5 full time if Jonas doesn't pan out for them & or Jaren proves he's better suited as a 5.

While I understand your Green reference, he's nowhere the playmaker & ball handler Gordon is, not factoring that the 23yo players game, is still evolving. I'm thinking a role along the lines of Lamar Odom. Play defense, rebound the ball, focus on getting others involved, combined with what looks like improving consistency from range. Gordon's skillset IMO makes this Memphis roster very flexible not just on court but in how they decide to utilize Jaren down the road. Odom was the 2nd offensive option for LA until Bynum evolved, then he became more about his court intangibles as the 3-4th option when they traded for Pau. I believe Gordon has these same intangibles & a high BBIQ to make this Memphis team better without focusing on being a scorer.

Concerning Johnson, a player that goes after it like him on both ends, willing to do the dirty work. Makes me believe he'll have the drive to make use of his potential skillset. At worse Memphis will have a gritty 3&D wing with intangibles in his game.
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Re: Potential Offseason Moves 

Post#131 » by VCfor3 » Sat Jun 1, 2019 9:14 pm

Utah in: Conley
Utah out: Korver, Crowder, #23, small salary (Neto?), future 2nd

Charlotte in: Crowder, future 2nd
Charlotte out: Batum, #12

Memphis in: Korver (waived), Batum, Small salary, #12, #23
Memphis out: Conley

-Utah gets to keep Favors, Exum, and the additional 1st Memphis reportedly asked for while getting Conley (this assumes Korver decides to retire like he has been supposedly considering).
-Charlotte gets a starting SF back and save about $51m over the next two seasons which lets them afford Kemba's supermax. I think this may be enough cap savings to resign Lamb and still barely stay under the luxury tax line. :clap: It is still tough to give up a lottery pick though even if it is a late lottery pick in a weak draft. This only happens if Charlotte is confident Kemba is coming back.
-Memphis gets two picks for Conley/eating Batum's contract. I feel like this deal is pretty comparable to expirings+15 from Detroit and then using the cap space next year for a late pick+expiring to give a team cap savings. (#12 for Conley and #23 for eating the second year of Batum)

I got good feedback from the trade board other than some mildly extreme Charlotte fans but wanted to see what you guys thought. Could take some flyers on guys with those two picks and Batum may be able to help us convey next year off the bench.
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Re: Potential Offseason Moves 

Post#132 » by Whole Truth » Sun Jun 2, 2019 12:47 am

VCfor3 wrote:Utah in: Conley
Utah out: Korver, Crowder, #23, small salary (Neto?), future 2nd

Charlotte in: Crowder, future 2nd
Charlotte out: Batum, #12

Memphis in: Korver (waived), Batum, Small salary, #12, #23
Memphis out: Conley

I got good feedback from the trade board other than some mildly extreme Charlotte fans but wanted to see what you guys thought. Could take some flyers on guys with those two picks and Batum may be able to help us convey next year off the bench.


Good trade conceptually.

Where Utah is concerned, Favors salary is a financial must, no exceptions, he must be included financially if Jazz want Conley. In your trade, Jazz would still have to send out 16m for the trade to be financially legal.

Utah trade - (Favors 16m, Korver 7.5m, Sefolosha 5.2m, #24) = 29m for (Conley 30m)

The only way to like this offer from Jazz, is if Favors nets the 12th pick from Charlotte, otherwise easy no from Memphis. If I were Charlotte, I'd prefer Favors to Crowder anyway. Positionally, he'd be a better fit because he can play PF-C which has been a problem area for the Cats but there would have to be some verbal commitment from him that he'd re-sign for me to give up the control of the 12th pick.

Charlotte trade - (Bizz 17m 2y, #12) for (Favors 2y 16m)

Charlotte being a borderline playoff team currently treadmilling, upgrade their centre position with Favors, with commitment to resign. Memphis as a rebuilding team, receive a defensive backup C in Bizz, wait him out to net the 12th pick for the potential future.

I wouldn't waive Korver, at the deadline some contending team might be looking for his 3pt shooting, where a late first might be had.
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Re: Potential Offseason Moves 

Post#133 » by VCfor3 » Sun Jun 2, 2019 1:25 am

Whole Truth wrote:
VCfor3 wrote:Utah in: Conley
Utah out: Korver, Crowder, #23, small salary (Neto?), future 2nd

Charlotte in: Crowder, future 2nd
Charlotte out: Batum, #12

Memphis in: Korver (waived), Batum, Small salary, #12, #23
Memphis out: Conley

I got good feedback from the trade board other than some mildly extreme Charlotte fans but wanted to see what you guys thought. Could take some flyers on guys with those two picks and Batum may be able to help us convey next year off the bench.


Good trade conceptually.

Where Utah is concerned, Favors salary is a financial must, no exceptions, he must be included financially if Jazz want Conley. In your trade, Jazz would still have to send out 16m for the trade to be financially legal.

Utah trade - (Favors 16m, Korver 7.5m, Sefolosha 5.2m, #24) = 29m for (Conley 30m)

The only way to like this offer from Jazz, is if Favors nets the 12th pick from Charlotte, otherwise easy no from Memphis. If I were Charlotte, I'd prefer Favors to Crowder anyway. Positionally, he'd be a better fit because he can play PF-C which has been a problem area for the Cats but there would have to be some verbal commitment from him that he'd re-sign for me to give up the control of the 12th pick.

Charlotte trade - (Bizz 17m 2y, #12) for (Favors 2y 16m)

Charlotte being a borderline playoff team currently treadmilling, upgrade their centre position with Favors, with commitment to resign. Memphis as a rebuilding team, receive a defensive backup C in Bizz, wait him out to net the 12th pick for the potential future.

I wouldn't waive Korver, at the deadline some contending team might be looking for his 3pt shooting, where a late first might be had.


The deal works financially for Utah as long as they waive their cap holds since they are taking Conley mostly into space. If they didn't have extra space then yes you'd have to have them send more out for it to be legal.
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Re: Potential Offseason Moves 

Post#134 » by jman3134 » Sun Jun 2, 2019 4:13 pm

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Re: Potential Offseason Moves 

Post#135 » by jman3134 » Sun Jun 2, 2019 4:15 pm

These trades don't match the type of prospects we are trying to draw. We are getting rid of Conley just to pick up Kyle Korver and Thabo? Makes 0 sense. Why downgrade and not target talent that matches Ja in age so that these new parts can grow in a young, upstart offense.
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Re: Potential Offseason Moves 

Post#136 » by VCfor3 » Sun Jun 2, 2019 9:05 pm

jman3134 wrote:These trades don't match the type of prospects we are trying to draw. We are getting rid of Conley just to pick up Kyle Korver and Thabo? Makes 0 sense. Why downgrade and not target talent that matches Ja in age so that these new parts can grow in a young, upstart offense.


My trade? We were doing that deal for picks #12 and #23. Korver is being immediately waived
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Re: Potential Offseason Moves 

Post#137 » by Whole Truth » Mon Jun 3, 2019 12:01 am

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According to @RicBucher, Kyrie Irving has narrowed down his possible free agency destinations to the Lakers and Nets.
11:38 AM - 2 Jun 2019

Things shaping up for Memphis.

- Kemba has Charlotte as his main priority.
- Philly is said to be preparing a contract for Butler.
- Kawhi is rumored to a short term contract with Toronto.
- Knicks wavering on certainty with their 3rd pick RJ suggests they might be out of the running on Davis.
- Now Kyrie is being linked to either NJ or LA, which reinforces Knicks possibly striking out in FA.

If Kemba resigns with Charlotte & Kyrie lands in NJ, Memphis is in business. All 3 of Boston, NY & LA could be vying for Conley.

- Durant to Knicks is starting to look iffy.
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Re: Potential Offseason Moves 

Post#138 » by jman3134 » Mon Jun 3, 2019 3:03 am

VCfor3 wrote:
jman3134 wrote:These trades don't match the type of prospects we are trying to draw. We are getting rid of Conley just to pick up Kyle Korver and Thabo? Makes 0 sense. Why downgrade and not target talent that matches Ja in age so that these new parts can grow in a young, upstart offense.


My trade? We were doing that deal for picks #12 and #23. Korver is being immediately waived


We can get more value than this imho. 12 and 23 are not worth that much in a top heavy draft. There are guys I like, but we can get similar level players in round 2 for a small cash outlay.
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Re: Potential Offseason Moves 

Post#139 » by VCfor3 » Mon Jun 3, 2019 3:18 am

jman3134 wrote:
VCfor3 wrote:
jman3134 wrote:These trades don't match the type of prospects we are trying to draw. We are getting rid of Conley just to pick up Kyle Korver and Thabo? Makes 0 sense. Why downgrade and not target talent that matches Ja in age so that these new parts can grow in a young, upstart offense.


My trade? We were doing that deal for picks #12 and #23. Korver is being immediately waived


We can get more value than this imho. 12 and 23 are not worth that much in a top heavy draft. There are guys I like, but we can get similar level players in round 2 for a small cash outlay.


Yes it is a top heavy draft, but those picks are still valuable. What trade are you expecting/hoping for?
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Re: Potential Offseason Moves 

Post#140 » by jman3134 » Mon Jun 3, 2019 3:58 am

Out of curiosity, who would you like to target with those picks? There is a strong chance a guy at 23 might be available in round 2 because there are a glut of players all around the same talent level.

I would like to aim as high as possible. The Knicks seemingly don't want their #3 pick and are looking to trade down, so if we could facilitate a three team and pick up RJ to pair with Ja, we would be set for the foreseeable future.

In terms of existing players, I would love to acquire Mikal Bridges if RJ is out of reach. Worst case we go for a #4, #5 or #6 and get Culver, who has the right mental approach to be an elite player.

As for 2nd round or late first, I would love to pair Ja with Didi Louzada from Brazil. He is only 19 and has to refine many things in his game, but the natural talent and bball IQ are there. Super slept on prospect I would scoop up early second.

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