Game 17: LA Clippers (13-5) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-11) - 8PM ET

I'd argue Memphis have a bigger issue with careless TO's. They must of had 4-5 careless, unforced TO's, which is a potential 30pt swing. In what was another 1 possession loss.

I already know this is not a bottom 6 team, which is why I'm in favor of targeting the top 6 pick this year, if possible. I fully believe, Jenkins is doing his part. When Memphis started to pull away with a 10pt lead 4th Q. Jenkins pulls Jonas who is at that point, 30 & 16, +14, in favor of a struggling Marko & Allen (2nd game back from injury). While Doc used George accordingly. Jonas did not return till the lead was gone 3 mins left & if there's any doubt, he didn't touch the ball in the crunch, though he was a clear advantage all night. The game was going to be won or loss off the back of 3J/Ja. Memphis didn't need a bad look from 3 to tie the game.

Post #7 » by **VCfor3** » Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:37 pm

Whole Truth wrote:
VCfor3 wrote:Another close loss. If we figure out the 2nd half a bit better, Whole Truth's top 6 pick may be in jeopardy lol.

That's cold man …

I'd argue Memphis have a bigger issue with careless TO's. They must of had 4-5 careless, unforced TO's, which is a potential 30pt swing. In what was another 1 possession loss.

I already know this is not a bottom 6 team, which is why I'm in favor of targeting the top 6 pick this year, if possible. I fully believe, Jenkins is doing his part. When Memphis started to pull away with a 10pt lead 4th Q. Jenkins pulls Jonas who is at that point, 30 & 16, +14, in favor of a struggling Marko & Allen (2nd game back from injury). While Doc used George accordingly. Jonas did not return till the lead was gone 3 mins left & if there's any doubt, he didn't touch the ball in the crunch, though he was a clear advantage all night. The game was going to be won or loss off the back of 3J/Ja. Memphis didn't need a bad look from 3 to tie the game.

I agree we are a decent-ish team and so if we don't keep our pick this year, we are likely looking at a late lottery pick. Even if next draft is stronger, you'd think pick #6 this draft is better than #11 next draft.

Careless turnovers and bad plays/decisions is just part of being so young I think/hope.

I think some of it is just rookie coach mistakes too for Jenkins. He has all year to work those kinks out and be ready to roll next season. His ATO plays have been good aside from the last one against LAC, our rookies seem to be developing well, I really like his general offensive scheme (though his use/gameplan with JJJ was rough initially and has been getting better), and it seems like we are developing a good culture.

Whole Truth · Post #8 » by **Whole Truth** » Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:37 am

VCfor3 wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:
VCfor3 wrote:Another close loss. If we figure out the 2nd half a bit better, Whole Truth's top 6 pick may be in jeopardy lol.

That's cold man …

I'd argue Memphis have a bigger issue with careless TO's. They must of had 4-5 careless, unforced TO's, which is a potential 30pt swing. In what was another 1 possession loss.

I already know this is not a bottom 6 team, which is why I'm in favor of targeting the top 6 pick this year, if possible. I fully believe, Jenkins is doing his part. When Memphis started to pull away with a 10pt lead 4th Q. Jenkins pulls Jonas who is at that point, 30 & 16, +14, in favor of a struggling Marko & Allen (2nd game back from injury). While Doc used George accordingly. Jonas did not return till the lead was gone 3 mins left & if there's any doubt, he didn't touch the ball in the crunch, though he was a clear advantage all night. The game was going to be won or loss off the back of 3J/Ja. Memphis didn't need a bad look from 3 to tie the game.

I agree we are a decent-ish team and so if we don't keep our pick this year, we are likely looking at a late lottery pick. Even if next draft is stronger, you'd think pick #6 this draft is better than #11 next draft.

Careless turnovers and bad plays/decisions is just part of being so young I think/hope.

I think some of it is just rookie coach mistakes too for Jenkins. He has all year to work those kinks out and be ready to roll next season. His ATO plays have been good aside from the last one against LAC, our rookies seem to be developing well, I really like his general offensive scheme (though his use/gameplan with JJJ was rough initially and has been getting better), and it seems like we are developing a good culture.

Yeah, there's most likely a learning curve for Jenkins too but I think for the most part, he's deliberate in some of these questionable decisions. He coached as though he wasn't going to let the Vet who was hot, decide the outcome. Similar to when Jonas got hot against Denver, which opened a considerable lead 1st Q. He was pulled at the 5+min mark, the 5+min mark ... & it wasn't because of minutes restriction. Jaren was the one struggling but he finished the Q, most likely to try & get him going, at the expense of losing the early lead .. Development over winning, is tanking. Which has made it hard to read what Jenkins is actually capable of. So I'm not reading or holding anything against him this year at all. I could be wrong but I do believe the goal is to retain the pick.

As for the TO's, Ja sometimes forces, which is understandable for a rookie PG, the team is young & inexperienced, which is also understandable but to start the Denver game, the first 3 possession of the game were unforced TO's, weak plays, committed by the vet, Crowder. Memphis on a whole have had way too many sloppy moments, even for a young developing team, IMO. They need to do a much better job of valuing possession, which I understand is hard with how deep Jenkins is playing his roster .. It's why playoff teams tighten their rotations.

Whole Truth · Post #9 » by **Whole Truth** » Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:03 am

I didn't want to start a new thread for this, so I'm going to post it here. Saw a trade rumor involving Raptors, that I liked for Iggy.

https://fadeawayworld.net/2019/11/28/raptors-interested-in-andre-iguodala/

Buckley suggests a package of Norman Powell, Patrick McCaw, and a 2020 first-round pick.

People like to say Raptors traded Jonas to upgrade him when in fact it was Ibaka starting, that was replaced. Jonas has always been an offensive big where Raptors had a greater need for defense in their starting unit, occupied by a 20m contract in Ibaka.

The main reason for that trade was Masai did not want to extend either Delon or Jonas because he has his sights set on Giannis in FA.

Reason I bring that fact up. Norman Powell, while currently playing well, is under contract for 3 more years at 10m. Iggy is expiring. The author of the article only discusses the impact Iggy could have on court, where Norm is currently playing well. In this deal, Raptors shave 30m long term salary by dealing him & they don't really need another late first with Giannis being the primary goal.

I'd hope, Raptors would struggle a bit for that late 2020 to be better but like the overall Idea of Powell & 2020 pick for Iggy. Especially if It could net Okoro mid to late lotto. Raptors success has been because they're shooting the cover off the ball from 3 where last year most of those players struggled out the gate. Wouldn't surprise me to see them hit a rough patch if & or when their collective hot shooting cools from what I've seen from them so far.

Post #10 » by **VCfor3** » Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:30 am

Whole Truth wrote:I didn't want to start a new thread for this, so I'm going to post it here. Saw a trade rumor involving Raptors, that I liked for Iggy.

https://fadeawayworld.net/2019/11/28/raptors-interested-in-andre-iguodala/

Buckley suggests a package of Norman Powell, Patrick McCaw, and a 2020 first-round pick.

People like to say Raptors traded Jonas to upgrade him when in fact it was Ibaka starting, that was replaced. Jonas has always been an offensive big where Raptors had a greater need for defense in their starting unit, occupied by a 20m contract in Ibaka.

The main reason for that trade was Masai did not want to extend either Delon or Jonas because he has his sights set on Giannis in FA.

Reason I bring that fact up. Norman Powell, while currently playing well, is under contract for 3 more years at 10m. Iggy is expiring. The author of the article only discusses the impact Iggy could have on court, where Norm is currently playing well. In this deal, Raptors shave 30m long term salary by dealing him & they don't really need another late first with Giannis being the primary goal.

I'd hope, Raptors would struggle a bit for that late 2020 to be better but like the overall Idea of Powell & 2020 pick for Iggy. Especially if It could net Okoro mid to late lotto. Raptors success has been because they're shooting the cover off the ball from 3 where last year most of those players struggled out the gate. Wouldn't surprise me to see them hit a rough patch if & or when their collective hot shooting cools from what I've seen from them so far.

The only downside is that Powell has two years left after this year. Cap space the summer of 2021 will likely be crazy valuable though also quite plentiful. The FA class looks really strong so a lot of that space will not be for rent. If we strike out on Beasley or another youngish guy then I wouldn't be opposed to giving someone a one year max and then taking salary dumps in 2021 for picks. Or if we are a good enough squad maybe we can just sign a couple good guys for ourselves and be ready to look towards the playoffs. It just would be nice to have options.

That said, I wonder if there is a follow up deal of Powell for Felicio with CHI? Get our 1st and keep our 2021 cap intact.

Whole Truth · Post #11 » by **Whole Truth** » Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:46 am

VCfor3 wrote:
The only downside is that Powell has two years left after this year. Cap space the summer of 2021 will likely be crazy valuable though also quite plentiful. The FA class looks really strong so a lot of that space will not be for rent. If we strike out on Beasley or another youngish guy then I wouldn't be opposed to giving someone a one year max and then taking salary dumps in 2021 for picks. Or if we are a good enough squad maybe we can just sign a couple good guys for ourselves and be ready to look towards the playoffs. It just would be nice to have options.

That said, I wonder if there is a follow up deal of Powell for Felicio with CHI? Get our 1st and keep our 2021 cap intact.

Powell right now is playing well, the main value/goal for the Raptors in this deal, is that their shedding his salary/2yrs.

If I'm not mistaken, Memphis should have plenty of cap space 2021, even if they take on Norms 10m.

Personally, I wouldn't throw money behind free agency unless it's a clear player of interest & Beasley, while good, for me isn't worth the investment. Much rather help a team create space for a pick where Memphis would have enough pick collateral to net their preferred target via trade, without overspending & capping themselves on another Parsons like investment.

While I understand the benefit for the Raptors, how much is Norm's 10m going to impact the Grizz cap situation in 21?. Norm is arguably better than anyone of the current Grizz SG options & having him at 10m could be a cheaper alternative to resigning Brooks ...

Post #12 » by **VCfor3** » Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:06 am

Whole Truth wrote:
VCfor3 wrote:
The only downside is that Powell has two years left after this year. Cap space the summer of 2021 will likely be crazy valuable though also quite plentiful. The FA class looks really strong so a lot of that space will not be for rent. If we strike out on Beasley or another youngish guy then I wouldn't be opposed to giving someone a one year max and then taking salary dumps in 2021 for picks. Or if we are a good enough squad maybe we can just sign a couple good guys for ourselves and be ready to look towards the playoffs. It just would be nice to have options.

That said, I wonder if there is a follow up deal of Powell for Felicio with CHI? Get our 1st and keep our 2021 cap intact.

Powell right now is playing well, the main value/goal for the Raptors in this deal, is that their shedding his salary/2yrs.

If I'm not mistaken, Memphis should have plenty of cap space 2021, even if they take on Norms 10m.

Personally, I wouldn't throw money behind free agency unless it's a clear player of interest & Beasley, while good, for me isn't worth the investment. Much rather help a team create space for a pick where Memphis would have enough pick collateral to net their preferred target via trade, without overspending & capping themselves on another Parsons like investment.

While I understand the benefit for the Raptors, how much is Norm's 10m going to impact the Grizz cap situation in 21?. Norm is arguably better than anyone of the current Grizz SG options & having him at 10m could be a cheaper alternative to resigning Brooks ...

Beasley I'm good with if the price is right. As for the cap situation in 21, 10m could potentially be a 1st that year. Trying to get the Toronto 1st while keeping the option of an additional pick that year was my goal with the Felicio swap.

Whole Truth · Post #13 » by **Whole Truth** » Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:17 pm

VCfor3 wrote:
Beasley I'm good with if the price is right. As for the cap situation in 21, 10m could potentially be a 1st that year. Trying to get the Toronto 1st while keeping the option of an additional pick that year was my goal with the Felicio swap.

Including Norm's 10m, the Raptors 1st, Memphis potential top 6 pick, they would have roughly 70m committed in 2020 to 11 roster spots with only Brooks & or Josh to potentially retain in FA. Where Norm at 10m, could prove himself a better option than either or both ...

2021 - Is 3J's first extension. With how raw he's looked, Memphis might benefit from it, financially.

Depending on what happens with either Brooks or Josh in FA & Jaren's extension, even with Norms 10m, Memphis should have considerable cap space left available in 2021. More than enough to take on bad salary for a pick, which I'd prefer to signing Beasley, even, at the price is right.

If Memphis land top 6, the player/wing they could potentially draft at rookie scale, would make signing Beasley a moot point. As well as making singing either Josh or Dillon a preferred option. Potential situation in 2020 of drafting a SG = top 6 pick (rookie scale), with Norms 10m off the bench. Which is cheaper than resigning Brooks & or targeting Beasley in FA, in dumping Norm.

I'm right there with you on using the Cap for a pick in 2021 though. Can never have enough pick capital, rebuild or not. I'm also not apposed to trading Norm for the cap space but it's not much different than keeping Norm & not resigning Brooks as it is resigning Brooks & letting Felicio expire.

It would come down to how you view Norm & Brooks as potential keepers in your trade scenario for an expiring. Right now IMO, Norm is a good defender & more consistent from 3 than Brooks who I take into consideration, is younger.

Whole Truth · Post #14 » by **Whole Truth** » Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:41 pm

How about this potential scenario concerning the Raptors trade, if Memphis get draft position for Wiseman.

Memphis draft top 6 - Wiseman

Memphis trade - (Jaren 7m, Anderson 9m, Norm 10m, Utah pick, GS pick) for (Beal 27m)

Not many teams can compete with Memphis offering Jaren + 2 future firsts for Beal. While swapping Jaren for Wiseman, resets the rookie scale clock on Jaren's upcoming ext.

- Memphis draft a defensive option in Okoro mid to late lotto with Raptors 2020 pick.
- Resign Brooks & hopefully Josh assuming he plays well & proves himself.
- Move Clarke to the starting rotation as a PF

Rotation = (Wiseman/Clarke/Okoro/Beal/JA) financially = 46m

3 + defenders up front who can get out in transition, with Beal being an excellent off ball offensive compliment to Ja as a scorer/shooter.

Deep quality bench = (Jonas/Bruno/Josh/Brooks/Tyus) financially = 23m + what Josh/Brooks are signed for, if signed.

2021 - give Boston a mid to late first while using the remaining cap space for a better pick.

Post #15 » by **VCfor3** » Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:34 pm

I just can't get behind JJJ for Beal personally, especially when we are adding additional picks.

Post #16 » by **SD2042** » Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:36 am

The game was competitive the other night when my co-worker and I went to see the game. The atmosphere was cool and fun regardless if the game was won or loss.

My takeaways:

Valanciunas, Crowder, 3J and Morant played their parts very well.
Reckess passing and TOs' are a major issue.
I wish that Jenkins left Valanciunas in the game to get a career high in points.
As much as I like Brooks for his efforts, he's very inconsistent and needs to be relegated to the bench.
Gaduric is subpar to say the least
Still need to improve the backcourt scoring
Need to do a better job blocking out opponents who are seeking out second chance points and rebounds
Grizzlies doing their best to get to the top of next summer's draft pick to grab the best player before they have to punt it off to the Celtics