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Offseason Discussion

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Offseason Discussion 

Post#1 » by VCfor3 » Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:43 am

Feel free to review this season, talk about potential moves/signings/#40 options, or pretty much anything else.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#2 » by VCfor3 » Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:57 am

https://advanceprobasketball.com/2020/05/31/mason-jones-nba-2020-draft-scouting-report-by-ahb-analytics/

Mason Jones seems like an interesting pick for us at #40. Some of Grizz twitter seem high on him.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#3 » by Whole Truth » Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:46 pm

If Memphis can manage to trade into the lotto, I'd like to pair 3J/Ja with Onyeka. I see him as a future replacement for what Jonas brings to the table & potentially more, defensively.

- Physical big, where 3J is soft
- Great athleticism & length where Clarke doesn't have the length to play the 5
- Elite pnr player to replace Jonas/Ja pnr
- Elite rim protector, help side defender, where Jonas is weak
- Mobile & versatile defender where Jonas struggles in space
- Strong rebounder to offset Jaren & compensate for losing Jonas
- Good movement off ball
- Rim runner.

His off ball movement, pnr & rim running ability also makes him a great pairing for Ja.

Negative - his range. Clarke had the same question mark & ended up shooting 40% from 3.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#4 » by VCfor3 » Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:21 pm

Whole Truth wrote:If Memphis can manage to trade into the lotto, I'd like to pair 3J/Ja with Onyeka. I see him as a future replacement for what Jonas brings to the table & potentially more, defensively.

- Physical big, where 3J is soft
- Great athleticism & length where Clarke doesn't have the length to play the 5
- Elite pnr player to replace Jonas/Ja pnr
- Elite rim protector, help side defender, where Jonas is weak
- Mobile & versatile defender where Jonas struggles in space
- Strong rebounder to offset Jaren & compensate for losing Jonas
- Good movement off ball
- Rim runner.

His off ball movement, pnr & rim running ability also makes him a great pairing for Ja.

Negative - his range. Clarke had the same question mark & ended up shooting 40% from 3.


I'm hesitant to think he will develop into a 3pt threat, but that isn't why you'd draft him. The guy should be a good player. I'd be happy with him on the team but I think Vassell may be more interesting to me due to our need on the wing. Centers are also usually easier to find. Ultimately it will depend on what it takes to trade into the lottery. I kinda like the idea of keeping the powder dry so that we can try to get a stud wing next draft, but if the right opportunity comes along then I hope we jump on it.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#5 » by Whole Truth » Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:22 pm

VCfor3 wrote:[

I'm hesitant to think he will develop into a 3pt threat, but that isn't why you'd draft him. The guy should be a good player. I'd be happy with him on the team but I think Vassell may be more interesting to me due to our need on the wing. Centers are also usually easier to find. Ultimately it will depend on what it takes to trade into the lottery. I kinda like the idea of keeping the powder dry so that we can try to get a stud wing next draft, but if the right opportunity comes along then I hope we jump on it.


Vassell is an intriguing prospect, partly because of Memphis current need for spacing. Plug that need, they might be even better in 2021, where you'd like to land a high pick to round out the rebuild.

I disagree with the idea that Memphis could land a post big like Onyeka easily, who's overall game IMO ideally fits the teams 2 building blocks on both ends of the court. From his elite rim protection to his rim running to his toughness & rebounding.

If there's a draft lotto to trade into, it would be this one, for various & obvious reasons. So I think opportunity is there.

I like Vassell as a prospect but think Onyeja will have the bigger long term impact & Memphis would benefit waiting to draft their 3&D wing, one who can create over the next 2 drafts, maybe even potentially package picks to move up for a specified target. Whereas Onyeka fills the inevitable void of not having Jonas long term with this core group, IMO perfectly.

Then by drafting & starting Onyeka (though his defense should translate) for development purposes (offensively) pushing the vet Jonas to the bench for a learning curve, could potentially help Memphis lotto odds in 2021 apposed to filling a need & immediately showing results. Which should be the final year of the rebuild.

Future rotation - without Jonas or him eventually coming off the bench with age..

Onyeka / Jontay?
3J / Clarke

2021-2022 x2 = ? + Brooks / Melton / Allen

Ja / Tyus

IMO by solidifying the front court with what I think is an ideal fit & replacement for Jonas, Memphis only need from that point to concentrate, focus on a 3&D wing over the next 2 drafts, one who can possibly create, where they have 3 picks & can potentially trade up in either draft.

Side note - What do you think about Patrick Williams?

.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#6 » by VCfor3 » Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:38 pm

Whole Truth wrote:
VCfor3 wrote:[

I'm hesitant to think he will develop into a 3pt threat, but that isn't why you'd draft him. The guy should be a good player. I'd be happy with him on the team but I think Vassell may be more interesting to me due to our need on the wing. Centers are also usually easier to find. Ultimately it will depend on what it takes to trade into the lottery. I kinda like the idea of keeping the powder dry so that we can try to get a stud wing next draft, but if the right opportunity comes along then I hope we jump on it.


Vassell is an intriguing prospect, partly because of Memphis current need for spacing. Plug that need, they might be even better in 2021, where you'd like to land a high pick to round out the rebuild.

I disagree with the idea that Memphis could land a post big like Onyeka easily, who's overall game IMO ideally fits the teams 2 building blocks on both ends of the court. From his elite rim protection to his rim running to his toughness & rebounding.

If there's a draft lotto to trade into, it would be this one, for various & obvious reasons. So I think opportunity is there.

I like Vassell as a prospect but think Onyeja will have the bigger long term impact & Memphis would benefit waiting to draft their 3&D wing, one who can create over the next 2 drafts, maybe even potentially package picks to move up for a specified target. Whereas Onyeka fills the inevitable void of not having Jonas long term with this core group, IMO perfectly.

Then by drafting & starting Onyeka (though his defense should translate) for development purposes (offensively) pushing the vet Jonas to the bench for a learning curve, could potentially help Memphis lotto odds in 2021 apposed to filling a need & immediately showing results. Which should be the final year of the rebuild.

Future rotation - without Jonas or him eventually coming off the bench with age..

Onyeka / Jontay?
3J / Clarke

2021-2022 x2 = ? + Brooks / Melton / Allen

Ja / Tyus

IMO by solidifying the front court with what I think is an ideal fit & replacement for Jonas, Memphis only need from that point to concentrate, focus on a 3&D wing over the next 2 drafts, one who can possibly create, where they have 3 picks & can potentially trade up in either draft.

Side note - What do you think about Patrick Williams?

.

I've heard good thinks about Patrick Williams, but honestly I haven't put really any effort into looking into prospects given our pick situation so you probably know more than me.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#7 » by Whole Truth » Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:17 am

VCfor3 wrote:
I've heard good thinks about Patrick Williams, but honestly I haven't put really any effort into looking into prospects given our pick situation so you probably know more than me.


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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#8 » by Whole Truth » Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:34 pm

Sixers insider Keith Pompey was on ESPN 1320 today to chat with D Lo and KC.

Pompey says folks around the Sixers are very excited about Buddy's availability. To make Embiid + Simmons work they need shooters and Buddy is the best available in trade.

Woj mentioned Buddy/Barnes for Tobias Harris/Josh Richardson.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#9 » by Whole Truth » Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:39 pm

The Cleveland Cavaliers couldn’t count on Lady Luck in the draft lottery, ending up with the fifth pick for the second straight season. While they can find a good player there, one anonymous NBA exec believes they’ll move the selection.

This front office source was quoted as saying “They don’t want that draft pick,” via SI.com.

The source added they “Strongly believe” Cleveland will end up trading the pick.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#10 » by Whole Truth » Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:49 pm

Knicks trade - (Mitch, #8) for (#2)

Cavs trade - (Love, #5) for (Wiggins, Mitch Robinson)

GS trade - (Wiggins, #2) for (Love, #8, GS 2024)

Memphis trade - (GS 2024) for (2020 #5)
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#11 » by VCfor3 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:18 am

Whole Truth wrote:Knicks trade - (Mitch, #8) for (#2)

Cavs trade - (Love, #5) for (Wiggins, Mitch Robinson)

GS trade - (Wiggins, #2) for (Love, #8, GS 2024)

Memphis trade - (GS 2024) for (2020 #5)


Can't see CLE giving up 5 for Mitch. Don't hate the idea for us though that GSW pick may be really valuable later. Their core will be old or gone by that point.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#12 » by Whole Truth » Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:30 am

VCfor3 wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:Knicks trade - (Mitch, #8) for (#2)

Cavs trade - (Love, #5) for (Wiggins, Mitch Robinson)

GS trade - (Wiggins, #2) for (Love, #8, GS 2024)

Memphis trade - (GS 2024) for (2020 #5)


Can't see CLE giving up 5 for Mitch. Don't hate the idea for us though that GSW pick may be really valuable later. Their core will be old or gone by that point.


Control of that pick is why I've been targeting the 2nd pick & not Minnesota. Its why I think Memphis have an in, if GS decide to trade down or out of this draft. As Memphis knows, it's not ideal to be owing a pick at what could be a potential rebuild. It's for that reason I think they'd love nothing more than for Memphis to offer it up. In this trade, that pick could very well be more valuable than the 5th but the trade concept is uncertainty for certainty with Memphis on the brink of being a playoff team.

I'd draft Onyeka who's game I think compliments the 2 corner stones of this franchise & start him over Jonas. By doing so, Memphis could angle the 2021 draft to net a more desirable wing prospect in a better class of options.

Why for Memphis. A lot can happen in 4yrs. I'm trading in for a specified target & certainty. Thought about using it for targeting Minnesota's 2021 but they could very well be a playoff team next year, so in that sense it's no longer uncertainty for certainty & the GS pick should theoretically be more valuable.

How much more do you think Cavs would need to consider?. That value should be coming from the Knicks because the GS pick value > #5, especially to GS.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#13 » by Whole Truth » Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:26 pm

Wes Goldberg of The Mercury News recently joined the Locked on Warriors podcast, and says one thing the Warriors won’t be doing with the second-overall pick is select Memphis big man James Wiseman (h/t NBC Bay Area):

“My intel from people I talk to is that the Warriors aren’t high on Wiseman. I reported last week that the Warriors are much higher on this class’ guards and wings than they are on this class’ centers, and I still think that they’re going to go in that direction — even if Anthony Edwards is off the board. I don’t know why every mock draft has Wiseman going (to Golden State). If you’re a national guy — and you’re putting one of these mocks together — you’re just looking at team needs, and the Warriors have their point guard, they have their shooting guard, they have their small forward, they have their power forward ... it’s easy enough to put Wiseman in there. I’m just telling you that’s not what’s gonna happen.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/warriors-draft-rumors-dubs-not-high-on-wiseman-notes-on-ball-haliburton/ar-BB18ra7U

Is this miss direction?

Forget mock drafts paying attention to need. Wiseman has to have the highest ceiling/potential of anyone in this draft. Are they hoping Minnesota or whoever they might trade their pick too, don't take Wiseman #1?.

Or is this justification for trading out or down for a win now move & wing player?. They'll net someone like Haliburton with the Knicks pick. Along with their rumored interest in Ntilikina.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#14 » by VCfor3 » Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:48 am

Whole Truth wrote:Wes Goldberg of The Mercury News recently joined the Locked on Warriors podcast, and says one thing the Warriors won’t be doing with the second-overall pick is select Memphis big man James Wiseman (h/t NBC Bay Area):

“My intel from people I talk to is that the Warriors aren’t high on Wiseman. I reported last week that the Warriors are much higher on this class’ guards and wings than they are on this class’ centers, and I still think that they’re going to go in that direction — even if Anthony Edwards is off the board. I don’t know why every mock draft has Wiseman going (to Golden State). If you’re a national guy — and you’re putting one of these mocks together — you’re just looking at team needs, and the Warriors have their point guard, they have their shooting guard, they have their small forward, they have their power forward ... it’s easy enough to put Wiseman in there. I’m just telling you that’s not what’s gonna happen.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/warriors-draft-rumors-dubs-not-high-on-wiseman-notes-on-ball-haliburton/ar-BB18ra7U

Is this miss direction?

Forget mock drafts paying attention to need. Wiseman has to have the highest ceiling/potential of anyone in this draft. Are they hoping Minnesota or whoever they might trade their pick too, don't take Wiseman #1?.

Or is this justification for trading out or down for a win now move & wing player?. They'll net someone like Haliburton with the Knicks pick. Along with their rumored interest in Ntilikina.


I saw some report that their front office was split between Wiseman and Onyeka on who was the better prospect/player/selection. A lot of them aren't sold on Wiseman.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#15 » by Whole Truth » Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:19 am

VCfor3 wrote: I saw some report that their front office was split between Wiseman and Onyeka on who was the better prospect/player/selection. A lot of them aren't sold on Wiseman.


Warriors have a championship core group of ageing 30yo's with a limited window to contend. Wiseman may have the highest ceiling but he's a project, same with Onyeka. Waiting on development, would cut into that limited window, when Warriors have more than 1 gap to fill, capped out. That's where I see the concern with these potential/project big men apposed to the wings they're rumored to be interested in. We've seen very little of Wiseman. Intrigue, doesn't help the Warriors now.

The players linked to Warriors suggest a potential trade down.

Capped out, they've prioritized backup PG & have targeted Ntilinka from the Knicks. They also have interest in Haliburton who can play on ball as a backup PG or off ball next to Curry/Klay. If they were to draft either Wiseman or Onyeka it would be based on what they could bring to the table defensively & as a rim runner. Targeting the Knicks, they could net a proven defensive big like Mitch, a quality backup PG (Ntilinka & additional pick/asset to cheaply fill a depth option.

In a weak draft class with bust potential, they don't put all their chips into the #2 pick.

Their rumored interest in Deni. He's a rounded offensive player playing in a more advanced league. I'm thinking along with his potential, they think he maybe more NBA ready.

At this point I'd be surprised to not see Warriors trade down or out of this draft for more immediate help & depth.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#16 » by VCfor3 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:12 am

Whole Truth wrote:.

Thought I'd pick your brain on this. What do you think of JV to GSW for a top 20/lottery protected 2021 first? They can take him into their TPE and we get a late 1st. It would open up more cap space in 2021 for salary dumps. This also would likely make us tank a bit to get a better draft pick in the 2021 draft where we can hopefully find a starting 2/3. The downside though would be that it may really upset the young guys plus JV helps protect Ja on the court. I also don't love the idea of making a young team worse in order to lose more. It can really hurt the culture. JV also could be a long term piece as a high end bench player once JJJ takes over the starting center position (assuming that happens as expected). What do you think?
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#17 » by Whole Truth » Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:07 am

VCfor3 wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:.

Thought I'd pick your brain on this. What do you think of JV to GSW for a top 20/lottery protected 2021 first? They can take him into their TPE and we get a late 1st. It would open up more cap space in 2021 for salary dumps. This also would likely make us tank a bit to get a better draft pick in the 2021 draft where we can hopefully find a starting 2/3. The downside though would be that it may really upset the young guys plus JV helps protect Ja on the court. I also don't love the idea of making a young team worse in order to lose more. It can really hurt the culture. JV also could be a long term piece as a high end bench player once JJJ takes over the starting center position (assuming that happens as expected). What do you think?


JV does more than protect the young players. He's the lone big on roster that bring toughness in the paint, rebounding/second chance points, he's also a elite screener & a release valve with his efficient post game for a team that struggles with spacing more often than not. It's for this reason, I think JV has far more court value for Memphis than trade value for GS. If traded, I'd expect a considerable step back. So the question becomes ...

What path Memphis wants to take. Build on this past seasons success or angle the team for a potential high pick?.

It's worth noting that JV also showed growth in a few areas of his game, so he's an improving asset. Just posted his best season to date not being attached to the hip of Derozan, which built his poor defensive reputation. (I'd be interested to see his advanced defensive numbers in comparison to his time in Toronto) ... So for me selling an improving player that impacts the team on & off court, I'd be looking at a better return than a late first & cap space ... This is where I need to know the possibilities of the trade exception?.

While Jonas is not on the same time line as the young core, the team is already on the cusp of playoffs, where Jonas is the type character loyal enough to resign with Memphis, if they wanted to retain him. Possibly 5+ years service for a team further along on their rebuild than expected.. In that sense, he fits where the team is currently at.

If Memphis were to trade Jonas, I'd like to think they have someone like Onyeka targeted as his potential replacement ... Maybe expand the deal, include GS 2024 pick & Chicago, come out with the 4th pick (Onyaka) & a better future asset than a late first.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#18 » by VCfor3 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:04 am

Whole Truth wrote:
VCfor3 wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:.

Thought I'd pick your brain on this. What do you think of JV to GSW for a top 20/lottery protected 2021 first? They can take him into their TPE and we get a late 1st. It would open up more cap space in 2021 for salary dumps. This also would likely make us tank a bit to get a better draft pick in the 2021 draft where we can hopefully find a starting 2/3. The downside though would be that it may really upset the young guys plus JV helps protect Ja on the court. I also don't love the idea of making a young team worse in order to lose more. It can really hurt the culture. JV also could be a long term piece as a high end bench player once JJJ takes over the starting center position (assuming that happens as expected). What do you think?


JV does more than protect the young players. He's the lone big on roster that bring toughness in the paint, rebounding/second chance points, he's also a elite screener & a release valve with his efficient post game for a team that struggles with spacing more often than not. It's for this reason, I think JV has far more court value for Memphis than trade value for GS. If traded, I'd expect a considerable step back. So the question becomes ...

What path Memphis wants to take. Build on this past seasons success or angle the team for a potential high pick?.

It's worth noting that JV also showed growth in a few areas of his game, so he's an improving asset. Just posted his best season to date not being attached to the hip of Derozan, which built his poor defensive reputation. (I'd be interested to see his advanced defensive numbers in comparison to his time in Toronto) ... So for me selling an improving player that impacts the team on & off court, I'd be looking at a better return than a late first & cap space ... This is where I need to know the possibilities of the trade exception?.

While Jonas is not on the same time line as the young core, the team is already on the cusp of playoffs, where Jonas is the type character loyal enough to resign with Memphis, if they wanted to retain him. Possibly 5+ years service for a team further along on their rebuild than expected.. In that sense, he fits where the team is currently at.

If Memphis were to trade Jonas, I'd like to think they have someone like Onyeka targeted as his potential replacement ... Maybe expand the deal, include GS 2024 pick & Chicago, come out with the 4th pick (Onyaka) & a better future asset than a late first.

Fair. I was just curious if it was worth losing JV to improve our draft position as well as our lottery odds (I think we'd increase our pick by a decent bit), gain a late 1st in 2021, and gain 15m more in cap space that could maybe get us an additional 1st in a deal (no idea what kind of quality the pick would be). That could potentially be the difference in us getting a stud wing to round out our core plus two additional 1sts. Losing may stunt the growth of our young guys though plus JV does everything you mentioned above. I was leaning towards keeping JV personally, but wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy so thought I'd ask you ha. I really like your idea to angle for Onyaka if we do move him though.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#19 » by Whole Truth » Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:46 am

VCfor3 wrote:[

Fair. I was just curious if it was worth losing JV to improve our draft position as well as our lottery odds (I think we'd increase our pick by a decent bit), gain a late 1st in 2021, and gain 15m more in cap space that could maybe get us an additional 1st in a deal (no idea what kind of quality the pick would be). That could potentially be the difference in us getting a stud wing to round out our core plus two additional 1sts. Losing may stunt the growth of our young guys though plus JV does everything you mentioned above. I was leaning towards keeping JV personally, but wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy so thought I'd ask you ha. I really like your idea to angle for Onyaka if we do move him though.


I'm not apposed to the idea of trading Jonas but like any deal the juice has to be worth the squeeze & the main problem I see is that Jonas has more court value to Memphis than trade value to GS based on his poor reputation from Toronto. A late pick is not enough, so it comes down to what Memphis could do with the 17m TE & even then, IMO Jonas value on the market is lower than it should be..

For some reference - 2019/20 season

Jokic - 19.3 pts / 9.7 rbs / 7 ast (52.8 / 31.4 / 81.7) - 29.5 usage 9.8 win shares (27.5m)

Jonas - 14.9 pts / 11.3 rbs / 2 ast (58.5 / 35.2 / 74) - 26.2 usage 7.0 win shares (15m)

What do you think Denver would be asking for Jokic?.

While I understand a big that can pass opens up the offense. Worth noting Jonas has shown some growth in that area with his change of scenery & usage from Toronto. Having said that, besides passing, what else is Jokic better at this year than Jonas? (not his toughness, rebounding, defense, offensive efficiency or salary). Even their win share are close ... Think Denver would accept a late first, cap space for the equally slow footed Jokic?.

In removing Jonas, you're not just cutting fat from the roster, he brings a lot of things to the table that Memphis currently have no replacement for, this is the reason I specifically targeted Onyeka to replace the toughness, rebounding & pnr big. The only thing he doesn't bring to the table that Jonas does is his efficient post scoring game. At 6'10" with a 7'1" wing span Onyeka brings out the gate a defensive versatility & rim protection that Jonas doesn't. His toughness & aggression is the reason I have him over Wiseman who I think is another soft/finesse big which Memphis already have in 3J & Jontay.

If Memphis entertain dealing Jonas, I'd prefer to expand your trade idea to get into the 4-6 range for Onyyeka, that way Memphis can concentrate/focus on landing a wing in 2021 & not filling the hole left by Jonas.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#20 » by Whole Truth » Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:15 pm

I think GS don't have the assets to deal for a star & would benefit most filling their holes than resting hopes on a developing rookie for their ageing championship cores remaining 3-4yr window.

GS trade - (Wiggins, #2, 15m TE) for (Jonas, Carter JR, Winslow, Tyus, GS 2024)

They beef up their front court with Jonas & Carter 2 entirely different playing styles, net a defensive SF/secondary playmaker big wing defender in Winslow, a steady backup PG in Tyus & control back of their 2024 pick where they could be in a rebuild while shedding some salary commitment off Wiggins contract.

Bulls trade - (Carter JR, Otto Porter, #4) for (Wiggins, #2 (Ball))

Memphis trade - (Jonas, Winslow, Tyus, GS 2024) for (15m TE, Porter expiring, #4 Onyeka)

Trading all the serviceable vets for a trade exception, expiring & a rookie replacement #4 Onyeka, it breaks down Memphis roster into a more tank worthy path.. I say, if you pick a direction, commit to it. Memphis draft their wing in 2021.

Onyeka /Jontay / Dieng
3J / Clarke
Anderson / Josh
Dillon / Allen
Ja / Melton

See if some team would offer up a pick for the 15m TE (Suns #10?) where I'd draft Patrick Williams. I know Suns are more interested in making the playoffs than developing another mid range pick. Think they'd prioritize resigning Ayton & targeting a FA that can help now as rumored. This would give them a need to shed salary.

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