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Offseason Discussion

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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#21 » by VCfor3 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:21 pm

Whole Truth wrote:I think GS don't have the assets to deal for a star & would benefit most filling their holes than resting hopes on a developing rookie for their ageing championship cores remaining 3-4yr window.

GS trade - (Wiggins, #2, 15m TE) for (Jonas, Carter JR, Winslow, Tyus, GS 2024)

They beef up their front court with Jonas & Carter 2 entirely different playing styles, net a defensive SF/secondary playmaker big wing defender in Winslow, a steady backup PG in Tyus & control back of their 2024 pick where they could be in a rebuild while shedding some salary commitment off Wiggins contract.

Bulls trade - (Carter JR, Otto Porter, #4) for (Wiggins, #2 (Ball))

Memphis trade - (Jonas, Winslow, Tyus, GS 2024) for (15m TE, Porter expiring, #4 Onyeka)

Trading all the serviceable vets for a trade exception, expiring & a rookie replacement #4 Onyeka, it breaks down Memphis roster into a more tank worthy path.. I say, if you pick a direction, commit to it. Memphis draft their wing in 2021.

Onyeka /Jontay / Dieng
3J / Clarke
Anderson / Josh
Dillon / Allen
Ja / Melton

See if some team would offer up a pick for the 15m TE (Suns #10?) where I'd draft Patrick Williams. I know Suns are more interested in making the playoffs than developing another mid range pick. Think they'd prioritize resigning Ayton & targeting a FA that can help now as rumored. This would give them a need to shed salary.

I think Tyus is very underrated for our team. We desperately need his ability to run the bench so I'd fight hard to replace him with Anderson or even Brooks instead even if we have to add a few 2nds.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#22 » by Whole Truth » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:15 am

VCfor3 wrote:I think Tyus is very underrated for our team. We desperately need his ability to run the bench so I'd fight hard to replace him with Anderson or even Brooks instead even if we have to add a few 2nds.


I agree & haven't under-rated Tyus, he's included because GS have backup PG as a high priority position to fill & I have them trading both their valuable assets in the #2 & 17m TE.

I'm not understanding though why you want to keep Tyus in this trade scenario if the goal is to angle for a high pick in 2021?, Why then trade Jonas? he's also very under-rated as a starter & could be playing for Memphis for the next 5-6yrs.

If you want to keep Tyus, maybe you could net a backup PG for GS from a different team?. (GS were rumored to be interested in Frank Nkitilinka from NY).

The concept behind the trade is cap, draft & timeline, Memphis could easily fill the backup PG position after they net their 2021 draft target.

2021 UFA point guards Memphis could throw money at. (Highlighted my preferred targets). It's a wide range of preference/interest.

- Kyle Lowry
- Shroder

- Patrick Mills
- Derrick Rose
- TJ McConell
- Quinn Cook
- Alex Caruso
- Monte Morris

The TE, & expiring filler Otto Porter, could then be flipped in follow up trades for additional assets. I'm sure a few contenders would love to trade dead contracts for an expiring 3&D Porter & other teams financially conscious in the Covid climate would highly value the 15m cap space.

IMO, the Key to the deal was netting Onyeka at 4 to potentially replace what Jonas brings as a starter, so that Memphis wouldn't have to take too far of a step back to net their Wing target in the 2021 draft. Of course Onyeka is unproven & any draft miss could set the team back further than expected but those are the risks.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#23 » by Whole Truth » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:28 am

Alternative route - https://www.nj.com/knicks/2020/09/nba-rumors-could-giannis-antetokounmpo-leave-the-bucks-for-the-knicks.html

Bucks S&Trade - (Giannis) for (Dieng, Winslow, Anderson, Utah 2022, Memphis 2022, GS 2024, Memphis 2024).

3J / Jonas
Clarke / Jontay
Giannis / Melton / Josh?
Brooks / Allen / Melton
Ja / Tyus

Draft a shooter at 40.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#24 » by Whole Truth » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:41 pm

From GS' board posted by someone with supposedly a source claims they have an offer on the table of (#2, Looney) for (Bagley, #12).

Makes sense in that they get a young "proven" big further along in his development that can help now who fits their playing style without sacrificing long term value or future. Then they probably think the draft prospect/s they like will still likely be there at 12.

What doesn't make sense is targeting a big who hasn't been able to stay healthy. (Played 62 games in 2018/19, 13 in 2019/20).
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#25 » by Whole Truth » Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:13 pm

Suns trade - (Oubre, #10) for (15m cap space, Suns 2020 2nd, 2021 2md)

Chicago trade - (Carter JR, #4) for (Looney, #2)

GS trade - (15m TE, Looney, #2) for (Jonas, Carter JR, Oubre, Tyus, GS 2024)

Memphis trade - (Jonas, Tyus, GS 2024) for (Wiggins, #4, #10)
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#26 » by VCfor3 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:28 pm

Whole Truth wrote:Suns trade - (Oubre, #10) for (15m cap space, Suns 2020 2nd, 2021 2md)

Chicago trade - (Carter JR, #4) for (Looney, #2)

GS trade - (15m TE, Looney, #2) for (Jonas, Carter JR, Oubre, Tyus, GS 2024)

Memphis trade - (Jonas, Tyus, GS 2024) for (Wiggins, #4, #10)


PHX would need to have FVV agreeing to come or something but we've already hit that. I'd maybe change it so GSW sends a top 20 protected 2021 1st to PHX instead of them getting those seconds but that's a minor detail. I really like the idea of getting #4 and #10. You could take Onyeka at #4 and maybe Vassell at #10 if he drops. If not then you cold get Haliburton or Okoro who could be good for us.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#27 » by VCfor3 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:46 pm

Whole Truth wrote:
VCfor3 wrote:I think Tyus is very underrated for our team. We desperately need his ability to run the bench so I'd fight hard to replace him with Anderson or even Brooks instead even if we have to add a few 2nds.


I agree & haven't under-rated Tyus, he's included because GS have backup PG as a high priority position to fill & I have them trading both their valuable assets in the #2 & 17m TE.

I'm not understanding though why you want to keep Tyus in this trade scenario if the goal is to angle for a high pick in 2021?, Why then trade Jonas? he's also very under-rated as a starter & could be playing for Memphis for the next 5-6yrs.

If you want to keep Tyus, maybe you could net a backup PG for GS from a different team?. (GS were rumored to be interested in Frank Nkitilinka from NY).

The concept behind the trade is cap, draft & timeline, Memphis could easily fill the backup PG position after they net their 2021 draft target.

2021 UFA point guards Memphis could throw money at. (Highlighted my preferred targets). It's a wide range of preference/interest.

- Kyle Lowry
- Shroder

- Patrick Mills
- Derrick Rose
- TJ McConell
- Quinn Cook
- Alex Caruso
- Monte Morris

The TE, & expiring filler Otto Porter, could then be flipped in follow up trades for additional assets. I'm sure a few contenders would love to trade dead contracts for an expiring 3&D Porter & other teams financially conscious in the Covid climate would highly value the 15m cap space.

IMO, the Key to the deal was netting Onyeka at 4 to potentially replace what Jonas brings as a starter, so that Memphis wouldn't have to take too far of a step back to net their Wing target in the 2021 draft. Of course Onyeka is unproven & any draft miss could set the team back further than expected but those are the risks.


If GSW is assigning Tyus enough value then it's fine to move him, but my thinking was that replacing Tyus would be harder than replacing JV plus a JV replacement would likely be cheaper. I guess I've been stuck in the mold of us chasing a good backup PG for years and we finally have one that was probably the main reason we had one of the best benches in the league for a large stretch of the season. He also helps facilitate the offense which creates opportunities for the other young guys allowing them to develop. JV is really really good and draws attention from our guys on offense, but if we wanted to replace him with Noel for 5m a year (or just use Dieng) then our team would be better off than a subpar backup PG that probably costs us MLE money. Our plan also includes drafting a JV replacement in Onyeka and GSW probable needs JV more than Tyus so his inclusion felt needed. Tyus fits the timeline a bit better even though I sometimes forget JV isn't actually that old at 28. Now some of those names above are definitely not subpar backups, but I think Lowry probably sticks it out in Toronto. Mills is older but a decent pickup though his facilitating is meh. LAL is probably hanging on to Caruso. TJ is an option though you'd like a better 3pt threat. Rose probably will be ring chasing. Schroder is a decent option.

You are right that without an explanation of why I wanted to keep Tyus it didn't make sense if the goal was to tank ha. And your plan of moving both definitely helps strengthen the tank though I don't want to bog us down so much that we struggle to recover. I personally think that the worst thing you can do for young guys is establish a culture where losing it ok (like what PHX has been fighting). I don't want our young guys to lose their edge.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#28 » by VCfor3 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:49 pm

Whole Truth wrote:Alternative route - https://www.nj.com/knicks/2020/09/nba-rumors-could-giannis-antetokounmpo-leave-the-bucks-for-the-knicks.html

Bucks S&Trade - (Giannis) for (Dieng, Winslow, Anderson, Utah 2022, Memphis 2022, GS 2024, Memphis 2024).

3J / Jonas
Clarke / Jontay
Giannis / Melton / Josh?
Brooks / Allen / Melton
Ja / Tyus

Draft a shooter at 40.

A very easy yes if MIL feels the need to trade Giannis. They probably would have better offers but that team would be so much fun. Need to use the MLE or trade for a wing stopper.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#29 » by VCfor3 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:51 pm

Whole Truth wrote:From GS' board posted by someone with supposedly a source claims they have an offer on the table of (#2, Looney) for (Bagley, #12).

Makes sense in that they get a young "proven" big further along in his development that can help now who fits their playing style without sacrificing long term value or future. Then they probably think the draft prospect/s they like will still likely be there at 12.

What doesn't make sense is targeting a big who hasn't been able to stay healthy. (Played 62 games in 2018/19, 13 in 2019/20).


It not making sense to target an injured (I'd say unproven) big is I guess why the offer is still on the table and not accepted. I'd think GSW would go in a different direction with their TPE for better win-now help but who knows.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#30 » by Whole Truth » Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:31 am

VCfor3 wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:Alternative route - https://www.nj.com/knicks/2020/09/nba-rumors-could-giannis-antetokounmpo-leave-the-bucks-for-the-knicks.html

Bucks S&Trade - (Giannis) for (Dieng, Winslow, Anderson, Utah 2022, Memphis 2022, GS 2024, Memphis 2024).

3J / Jonas
Clarke / Jontay
Giannis / Melton / Josh?
Brooks / Allen / Melton
Ja / Tyus

Draft a shooter at 40.

A very easy yes if MIL feels the need to trade Giannis. They probably would have better offers but that team would be so much fun. Need to use the MLE or trade for a wing stopper.


A soon to be free agent has some say in where he's heading. The only leverage Bucks have is the supermax. When Spurs were looking to deal Kawhi both Lakers & Boston had better offers on the table than Toronto but several factors played into where he ended up. His declaration for playing in LA scared off Boston & put LA in a position where they chose to wait for his move home in free agency over selling off their youth/depth/picks to a rival. Which opened the door for Toronto. Pops not wanting to rebuild at the end of his career allowed a non pick based deal to facilitate the trade. I'd argue Spurs traded him to Toronto partly to spite his interest/demands.

If Giannis decides to leave it's known to be about winning & finding a better situation for himself.

I'd argue that Memphis has a selling point with 3J & JA for a decade of winning. Then there's a familiarity with Jenkins.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#31 » by Whole Truth » Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:49 am

VCfor3 wrote: If GSW is assigning Tyus enough value then it's fine to move him, but my thinking was that replacing Tyus would be harder than replacing JV plus a JV replacement would likely be cheaper. I guess I've been stuck in the mold of us chasing a good backup PG for years and we finally have one that was probably the main reason we had one of the best benches in the league for a large stretch of the season. He also helps facilitate the offense which creates opportunities for the other young guys allowing them to develop. JV is really really good and draws attention from our guys on offense, but if we wanted to replace him with Noel for 5m a year (or just use Dieng) then our team would be better off than a subpar backup PG that probably costs us MLE money. Our plan also includes drafting a JV replacement in Onyeka and GSW probable needs JV more than Tyus so his inclusion felt needed. Tyus fits the timeline a bit better even though I sometimes forget JV isn't actually that old at 28. Now some of those names above are definitely not subpar backups, but I think Lowry probably sticks it out in Toronto. Mills is older but a decent pickup though his facilitating is meh. LAL is probably hanging on to Caruso. TJ is an option though you'd like a better 3pt threat. Rose probably will be ring chasing. Schroder is a decent option.

You are right that without an explanation of why I wanted to keep Tyus it didn't make sense if the goal was to tank ha. And your plan of moving both definitely helps strengthen the tank though I don't want to bog us down so much that we struggle to recover. I personally think that the worst thing you can do for young guys is establish a culture where losing it ok (like what PHX has been fighting). I don't want our young guys to lose their edge.


I'd argue the bold.

A TJ signing replaces Tyus far better as a backup PG than a Noel signing replaces Jonas as a starter.

Phoenix had no direction other than stock pilling draft picks. They had a glut of wings sharing playing & development time with no playmaking/pg. It's why Warren took off for Indiana, Melton & to a lesser extent Josh looked better in Memphis.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#32 » by VCfor3 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:35 pm

Whole Truth wrote:
VCfor3 wrote: If GSW is assigning Tyus enough value then it's fine to move him, but my thinking was that replacing Tyus would be harder than replacing JV plus a JV replacement would likely be cheaper. I guess I've been stuck in the mold of us chasing a good backup PG for years and we finally have one that was probably the main reason we had one of the best benches in the league for a large stretch of the season. He also helps facilitate the offense which creates opportunities for the other young guys allowing them to develop. JV is really really good and draws attention from our guys on offense, but if we wanted to replace him with Noel for 5m a year (or just use Dieng) then our team would be better off than a subpar backup PG that probably costs us MLE money. Our plan also includes drafting a JV replacement in Onyeka and GSW probable needs JV more than Tyus so his inclusion felt needed. Tyus fits the timeline a bit better even though I sometimes forget JV isn't actually that old at 28. Now some of those names above are definitely not subpar backups, but I think Lowry probably sticks it out in Toronto. Mills is older but a decent pickup though his facilitating is meh. LAL is probably hanging on to Caruso. TJ is an option though you'd like a better 3pt threat. Rose probably will be ring chasing. Schroder is a decent option.

You are right that without an explanation of why I wanted to keep Tyus it didn't make sense if the goal was to tank ha. And your plan of moving both definitely helps strengthen the tank though I don't want to bog us down so much that we struggle to recover. I personally think that the worst thing you can do for young guys is establish a culture where losing it ok (like what PHX has been fighting). I don't want our young guys to lose their edge.


I'd argue the bold.

A TJ signing replaces Tyus far better as a backup PG than a Noel signing replaces Jonas as a starter.

Phoenix had no direction other than stock pilling draft picks. They had a glut of wings sharing playing & development time with no playmaking/pg. It's why Warren took off for Indiana, Melton & to a lesser extent Josh looked better in Memphis.

If we move JV I assumed we would have JJJ get more run at center. Probably have JJJ and Clarke as our starting front court. I wouldn't expect Noel to start for us.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#33 » by Whole Truth » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:33 am

VCfor3 wrote:If we move JV I assumed we would have JJJ get more run at center. Probably have JJJ and Clarke as our starting front court. I wouldn't expect Noel to start for us.


For me as of now & maybe future 3J at centre is situational. I can't picture either him or Clarke logging heavy mins there for several reasons. It's why I've valued Onyeka's toughness & aggression over Memphis' own Wiseman's potential ceiling if Memphis were to take a big in this draft.

I thought about it but came away thinking 3J is too soft currently (poor core strength( & would end up on the injury list playing heavy mins in the post (twice injured in the last 2yrs playing PF). If I thought he could, there would be no reason to use the potential 4th pick on another big man replacement for Jonas with Memphis able to move Clarke into the starting rotation as you mention here.

With Memphis having 3J & Jontay's potential at C, I see no reason to add another potential soft big man like Wiseman with questionable heart = my Interest in Onyeka, I think his game has that toughness, dog in him that Memphis will need with their collection of soft big men outside of Jonas, doesn't hurt he's a rim runner & pnr option for JA. (3J being a subpar rebounder & Clarke lacking the strength/length to compensate his height in the post in most matchups).

If Memphis could trade down for Onyeka +, I'd entertain the idea of dealing Clarke + to Minnesota for the #1 pick.

Minnesota trade - (#1) for (Clarke, GS 2024)

Bulls trade (#4, 2021 FRP top 4 protected/unprotected 2022) for (#1)

Memphis trade (Clarke, GS 2024) for (#4 Onyeka, Bulls 2021 FRP)

Onyeka /Jonas / Jontay
3J / Anderson
Winslow / Melton
Brooks / Allen
Ja / Tyus

- Memphis 2021
- Utahh 2021 (8-14) , 2022 top 3 protected
- Bulls 2021 top 4 protected, 2022 unprotected

This would give Memphis multiple picks in the next 2 drafts to help get that 3rd core member sooner than later. Part of the reason I'd be ok with a deal like this involving Clarke, as good as he was, is the fact that he'll be 24 next season & he has some physical limitations (Strength/length) playing centre where I think 3J is more of a PF, perimeter big. IMO Memphis would need a better post option who can bang & rebound next to 3J (Onyeka). Who might not end up a better overall player but better fit. Memphis are compensated with the Bulls FRP.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#34 » by VCfor3 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:15 pm

Whole Truth wrote:
VCfor3 wrote:If we move JV I assumed we would have JJJ get more run at center. Probably have JJJ and Clarke as our starting front court. I wouldn't expect Noel to start for us.


For me as of now & maybe future 3J at centre is situational. I can't picture either him or Clarke logging heavy mins there for several reasons. It's why I've valued Onyeka's toughness & aggression over Memphis' own Wiseman's potential ceiling if Memphis were to take a big in this draft.

I thought about it but came away thinking 3J is too soft currently (poor core strength( & would end up on the injury list playing heavy mins in the post (twice injured in the last 2yrs playing PF). If I thought he could, there would be no reason to use the potential 4th pick on another big man replacement for Jonas with Memphis able to move Clarke into the starting rotation as you mention here.

With Memphis having 3J & Jontay's potential at C, I see no reason to add another potential soft big man like Wiseman with questionable heart = my Interest in Onyeka, I think his game has that toughness, dog in him that Memphis will need with their collection of soft big men outside of Jonas, doesn't hurt he's a rim runner & pnr option for JA. (3J being a subpar rebounder & Clarke lacking the strength/length to compensate his height in the post in most matchups).

If Memphis could trade down for Onyeka +, I'd entertain the idea of dealing Clarke + to Minnesota for the #1 pick.

Minnesota trade - (#1) for (Clarke, GS 2024)

Bulls trade (#4, 2021 FRP top 4 protected/unprotected 2022) for (#1)

Memphis trade (Clarke, GS 2024) for (#4 Onyeka, Bulls 2021 FRP)

Onyeka /Jonas / Jontay
3J / Anderson
Winslow / Melton
Brooks / Allen
Ja / Tyus

- Memphis 2021
- Utahh 2021 (8-14) , 2022 top 3 protected
- Bulls 2021 top 4 protected, 2022 unprotected

This would give Memphis multiple picks in the next 2 drafts to help get that 3rd core member sooner than later. Part of the reason I'd be ok with a deal like this involving Clarke, as good as he was, is the fact that he'll be 24 next season & he has some physical limitations (Strength/length) playing centre where I think 3J is more of a PF, perimeter big. IMO Memphis would need a better post option who can bang & rebound next to 3J (Onyeka). Who might not end up a better overall player but better fit. Memphis are compensated with the Bulls FRP.

I think that is the key statement. I thought when we had JJJ at the 5 and Clarke at the 4 we played very well even though the stats are a little all over the place. We can't do that against every team, but there is a reason we started closing with that towards the end of the season. Lets us run a 5 out lineup (which will be better when we have more shooting from a high end 2/3). But if JJJ is ultimately a PF then Clarke is relegated to a high end 6th man. Very valuable, but we have needs to fill out in the starting lineup. I guess it could make sense to move him, but I wonder if Memphis would do it for the above deal or if they'd convince themselves waiting and using Clarke to move up in the draft next year (or as a center piece in a star package though I don't see anyone available) would be better.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#35 » by Whole Truth » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:38 am

VCfor3 wrote:I think that is the key statement. I thought when we had JJJ at the 5 and Clarke at the 4 we played very well even though the stats are a little all over the place. We can't do that against every team, but there is a reason we started closing with that towards the end of the season. Lets us run a 5 out lineup (which will be better when we have more shooting from a high end 2/3). But if JJJ is ultimately a PF then Clarke is relegated to a high end 6th man. Very valuable, but we have needs to fill out in the starting lineup. I guess it could make sense to move him, but I wonder if Memphis would do it for the above deal or if they'd convince themselves waiting and using Clarke to move up in the draft next year (or as a center piece in a star package though I don't see anyone available) would be better.


Deciding if 3J is better suited not just as a PF but as a stretch/perimeter big is the key for me in dealing Clarke in this suggestion. The problem that was hidden by having Jonas start is that there's a lot of bigs that Memphis can't effectively play Clarke in the post next to 3J.

The games 3J & Clarke closed were impressive, especially defensively but it was also in limited mins, short spurts.

I want to maintain that depth & versatility Memphis currently enjoy with Jonas & Clarke.. Ideally, I'd like to draft Onyeka before trading or moving either, which is still a possibility out of my current suggestion. Clake was included to net the Bulls 2021 moving the 2024 up for a young team already scratching the playoffs.

In my opinion, Clarke could be better than any player in this draft & considering those same choices atop this draft, the GS pick could be the most valuable asset, especially to GS. It's why I have the Bulls giving up their 2021 with similar protection to balance out the trade value for Memphis. I think Minnesota get great fit & value for the #1 with Clarke & the GS pick. Which is why Chicago is the one I have offering up the added value for the rights to the #1 pick/ first choice preference.

What about trading just the GS pick for Onyeka, taking Clarke out of the deal were either Minnesota or GS still get their young big man from the 3rd team?.

Bulls trade - (Carter JR or Markennen, #4) for (#1 or #2)

Memphis trade - (GS 2024) for (#4)

Minnesota or GS trade - (#1 or #2) for (Carter JR, GS 2024)

As mentioned, GS will most likely value the control of their future pick more. Maybe Minnesota think they could get control of their 2021 back using the GS 2024 for the #1? Salary wise, that 4-8m is put off for 2 teams that might prefer not having to pay for any target atop or in this draft.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#36 » by Whole Truth » Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:04 pm

Based on the sourced deal I mentioned earlier with GS/Kings there's 2 trade being suggested on the GS board that's giving me a better sense of the #2 picks value.

Kings trade - (Bagley, Barnes, #12, 2nd rounder) for (Wiggins, #2)

Magic trade - (Al farouq, Gordon, 2021 top 12 protected) for (Wggins, #2)

The Utah owed pick is in the 8-14 range 2021 wiich gives the value of the 12 & top 12 protected picks. If healthy, Winslow is the better SF, playmaking wing, big wing defender of the players listed. Even Anderson is a good wing defender with improveing range.

Like you said Vic if GS put value on a solid backup PG that can take care of the ball, Tyus would hold specific value for them.

Memphis trade - (Winslow or Anderson, Tyus, Utah pick) for (Wiggins, #2)

or

Bulls trade - (Carter JR, Porter, #4) for (Wiggins, #2)

GS trade - (Wiggins, #2) for (Carter JR, Winslow, Tyus, Utah pick 8-14 2021, top 3 2022)

Memphis trade - (Winslow, Tyus, Utah FRP) for (Porter, #4)

Jonas / #4 Onyeka
3J / Clarke
Porter / Melton
Brooks / Allen
Ja / ?

Porter will be expiring in 2021 when Memphis will be looking to draft their future wing prospect..
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#37 » by VCfor3 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:24 pm

Whole Truth wrote:
VCfor3 wrote:I think that is the key statement. I thought when we had JJJ at the 5 and Clarke at the 4 we played very well even though the stats are a little all over the place. We can't do that against every team, but there is a reason we started closing with that towards the end of the season. Lets us run a 5 out lineup (which will be better when we have more shooting from a high end 2/3). But if JJJ is ultimately a PF then Clarke is relegated to a high end 6th man. Very valuable, but we have needs to fill out in the starting lineup. I guess it could make sense to move him, but I wonder if Memphis would do it for the above deal or if they'd convince themselves waiting and using Clarke to move up in the draft next year (or as a center piece in a star package though I don't see anyone available) would be better.


Deciding if 3J is better suited not just as a PF but as a stretch/perimeter big is the key for me in dealing Clarke in this suggestion. The problem that was hidden by having Jonas start is that there's a lot of bigs that Memphis can't effectively play Clarke in the post next to 3J.

The games 3J & Clarke closed were impressive, especially defensively but it was also in limited mins, short spurts.

I want to maintain that depth & versatility Memphis currently enjoy with Jonas & Clarke.. Ideally, I'd like to draft Onyeka before trading or moving either, which is still a possibility out of my current suggestion. Clake was included to net the Bulls 2021 moving the 2024 up for a young team already scratching the playoffs.

In my opinion, Clarke could be better than any player in this draft & considering those same choices atop this draft, the GS pick could be the most valuable asset, especially to GS. It's why I have the Bulls giving up their 2021 with similar protection to balance out the trade value for Memphis. I think Minnesota get great fit & value for the #1 with Clarke & the GS pick. Which is why Chicago is the one I have offering up the added value for the rights to the #1 pick/ first choice preference.

What about trading just the GS pick for Onyeka, taking Clarke out of the deal were either Minnesota or GS still get their young big man from the 3rd team?.

Bulls trade - (Carter JR or Markennen, #4) for (#1 or #2)

Memphis trade - (GS 2024) for (#4)

Minnesota or GS trade - (#1 or #2) for (Carter JR, GS 2024)

As mentioned, GS will most likely value the control of their future pick more. Maybe Minnesota think they could get control of their 2021 back using the GS 2024 for the #1? Salary wise, that 4-8m is put off for 2 teams that might prefer not having to pay for any target atop or in this draft.


Yeah I thought the CHI 1st was a good GSW replacement in your previous deal.

I'd trade the GSW 1st for #4 and not really think twice. That pick could potentially be a top pick in a stronger draft at some point, and ultimately I think it'll be quite good, but the warriors won't be tanking that year since we have their pick and a lot can happen over a few years so it could end up #14 like what happened to the Memphis pick with Boston. Getting a top 5 pick now would be worth it.

As for GSW swapping the MIN pick for it, I don't know. They are in win now mode and the MIN pick holds more immediate value. They may prefer that as they scour the league for another star player to trade for.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#38 » by VCfor3 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:31 pm

Whole Truth wrote:Based on the sourced deal I mentioned earlier with GS/Kings there's 2 trade being suggested on the GS board that's giving me a better sense of the #2 picks value.

Kings trade - (Bagley, Barnes, #12, 2nd rounder) for (Wiggins, #2)

Magic trade - (Al farouq, Gordon, 2021 top 12 protected) for (Wggins, #2)

The Utah owed pick is in the 8-14 range 2021 wiich gives the value of the 12 & top 12 protected picks. If healthy, Winslow is the better SF, playmaking wing, big wing defender of the players listed. Even Anderson is a good wing defender with improveing range.

Like you said Vic if GS put value on a solid backup PG that can take care of the ball, Tyus would hold specific value for them.

Memphis trade - (Winslow or Anderson, Tyus, Utah pick) for (Wiggins, #2)

or

Bulls trade - (Carter JR, Porter, #4) for (Wiggins, #2)

GS trade - (Wiggins, #2) for (Carter JR, Winslow, Tyus, Utah pick 8-14 2021, top 3 2022)

Memphis trade - (Winslow, Tyus, Utah FRP) for (Porter, #4)

Jonas / #4 Onyeka
3J / Clarke
Porter / Melton
Brooks / Allen
Ja / ?

Porter will be expiring in 2021 when Memphis will be looking to draft their future wing prospect..

I think I prefer the second deal there since we could probably use the extra cap space to net some solid value later on.

Random aside, but I wonder if UTA really does consider moving Gobert this offseason/season. I'm not sure if they are willing to pay him and if he gets moved then that 2021 pick very well may fall in the back half of the lottery.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#39 » by Whole Truth » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:00 pm

VCfor3 wrote:Yeah I thought the CHI 1st was a good GSW replacement in your previous deal.

I'd trade the GSW 1st for #4 and not really think twice. That pick could potentially be a top pick in a stronger draft at some point, and ultimately I think it'll be quite good, but the warriors won't be tanking that year since we have their pick and a lot can happen over a few years so it could end up #14 like what happened to the Memphis pick with Boston. Getting a top 5 pick now would be worth it.

As for GSW swapping the MIN pick for it, I don't know. They are in win now mode and the MIN pick holds more immediate value. They may prefer that as they scour the league for another star player to trade for.


They won't be intentionally tanking but In 4yrs, Steph will be 36, Klay 34, already having suffered a considerable injury. So unless something dramatic happens over that 4yr span. GS will try to milk that core for all it's worth, which should put them between a rock & a hard place ... between contending & the need to rebuild. I'd put money that pick is going to be valuable. If GS luck into the top 4 2024, it then becomes top 1 in 2025, unprotected in 2026. IMO it will be much better value than the Minnesota pick in 21. If they don't, they should value regaining it's control beyond trying to maximize it's current teams window but that is why I had them getting that playmaking wing that can defend big wings (Winslow) & their prioritized quality backup PG (Tyus) to bind the trade to cater to their immediate needs along with regaining it's future control. They can use the TPE to address the front court or they could go with an unproven rookie in an unclear draft & not maximize the #2 picks unknown value.

I didn't have GS trading Minnesota's 2021. I was saying if Minnesota were to obtain the GS pick in trade they might want to use it to get their pick back whether alone or in a packaged deal. Both teams regain control of their future swap type deal. Minnesota might just want to hang onto what I think will project to be the better pick/value.
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Re: Offseason Discussion 

Post#40 » by Whole Truth » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:35 pm

VCfor3 wrote:I think I prefer the second deal there since we could probably use the extra cap space to net some solid value later on.

Random aside, but I wonder if UTA really does consider moving Gobert this offseason/season. I'm not sure if they are willing to pay him and if he gets moved then that 2021 pick very well may fall in the back half of the lottery.


Besides the cap space, I don't really want to part with Clarke neither even though he projects as a high end role player. With Jonas, Clarke & Onyeka surrounding 3J, Memphis would also get a good look at what varying skillset better compliments 3J's game long term or decide if they are better off with the quality depth & versatility of all 4 for a taxing position, noting 3J has yet to play a full season, which makes quality depth important to sustain wins. Either way, Clarke & potentially Onyeka would become young proven talent which teams value in trade over just a set of unknown value picks that could or not contain value. Onyeka looks good next to 3J, they can then dangle Clarke to a team like Minnesota knowing they have a better fit in the rotation eliminating any guess work.

Utah could lose both Gobert & Ingles but having Mitchell, I wouldn't bet against them. I can see them replacing Gobert with your example of Noel long before Memphis can replace Jonas with a similar talent. Jonas can actually create his own offense on a team that lacks proper spacing where Gobert benefits from the defensive attention Mitchell commands.

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