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Jaren Jackson Jr and Valanciunas not on ESPN's top 100 list

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Jaren Jackson Jr and Valanciunas not on ESPN's top 100 list 

Post#1 » by BigShaq34 » Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:36 am

https://www.espn.com/basketball/story/_/id/30476704/ranking-best-nba-players-2020-21-100-51

Valanciunas had a career year and his team overachieved expectations, and Jaren Jackson is a highly talented player injuries aside he's easily top 100.
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Re: Jaren Jackson Jr and Valanciunas not on ESPN's top 100 list 

Post#2 » by VCfor3 » Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:13 pm

I agree that it was two glaring misses, but honestly that ranking is terrible anyway. For instance, Lonzo Ball significantly higher than OG for you guys is a joke.
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Re: Jaren Jackson Jr and Valanciunas not on ESPN's top 100 list 

Post#3 » by Crizzle » Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:06 pm

pretty sure JJJ is ranked in the 40s
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Re: Jaren Jackson Jr and Valanciunas not on ESPN's top 100 list 

Post#4 » by SD2042 » Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:45 am

I say let the disrespect continue. It add more fuel to the fire of the underdog to break dow nthe walls of disrespect the media continues to throw down towards this team.
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Re: Jaren Jackson Jr and Valanciunas not on ESPN's top 100 list 

Post#5 » by Whole Truth » Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:32 am

From another Memphis forum. Jonas is Lithuanian for under-rated.

"What is even more mind boggling is the ESPN omission. When John Hollinger was their advanced stat guru, he came up with the Player Efficiency Rating (PER) which is still a stat category on their site today. According to their own created statistic, Jonas Valanciunas was 17th IN THE ENTIRE LEAGUE in PER. Now explain how a player who is a top 6 rebounder and top 20 player in efficiency not be a top 100 player?"

The author gave the explanation, ESPN doesn't like his STYLE of play. If he played above the rim like Zion maybe he would get half the respect Zion does from the officials. Jonas is the most fouled big man in the league without the FT rate to show for it. It's all about popularity - ratings = Superstar call.

"Both CBS and ESPN decided to rank Myles Turner. I would dare say they are more accurately ranking the idea of Myles Turner, as he belongs nowhere on this list. For their career in PER 36 Minutes categories, Turner bests JV in one category that matters for their position with one more blocked shot per 36 on average. Valanciunas is +1.5 in scoring per 36 on 8% better shooting. JV out-rebounds Turner at 4 more boards per 36 and they shoot nearly an identical average from deep, but tell me more about how Turner is better.

Myles Turner (74)!!!!!!!"

https://www.grizzlybearblues.com/2020/12/21/22191744/jonas-valanciunas-is-lithuanian-for-underrated-memphis-grizzlies-nba

While I agree with the authors sentiment, he's overlooking the defensive aspect. That said, it's rankings like this that help to drive Jonas value down. Good for contract negotiations (15m) bad for trade value.

Perception vs reality - The belief that Jonas playing style doesn't fit (reason for Raptor trade), has been debunked by Memphis.

What does Memphis get for their 15m investment - 15/11/2 on 60% eFG (7 WS) & a consummate teammate/professional who's more about winning than his individual numbers.

Depending on what Memphis future intentions are, it could be good that Jonas continues to fly under the radar. If they have designs to trade him they need to change perception.
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Re: Jaren Jackson Jr and Valanciunas not on ESPN's top 100 list 

Post#6 » by VCfor3 » Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:37 pm

Whole Truth wrote:From another Memphis forum. Jonas is Lithuanian for under-rated.

"What is even more mind boggling is the ESPN omission. When John Hollinger was their advanced stat guru, he came up with the Player Efficiency Rating (PER) which is still a stat category on their site today. According to their own created statistic, Jonas Valanciunas was 17th IN THE ENTIRE LEAGUE in PER. Now explain how a player who is a top 6 rebounder and top 20 player in efficiency not be a top 100 player?"

The author gave the explanation, ESPN doesn't like his STYLE of play. If he played above the rim like Zion maybe he would get half the respect Zion does from the officials. Jonas is the most fouled big man in the league without the FT rate to show for it. It's all about popularity - ratings = Superstar call.

"Both CBS and ESPN decided to rank Myles Turner. I would dare say they are more accurately ranking the idea of Myles Turner, as he belongs nowhere on this list. For their career in PER 36 Minutes categories, Turner bests JV in one category that matters for their position with one more blocked shot per 36 on average. Valanciunas is +1.5 in scoring per 36 on 8% better shooting. JV out-rebounds Turner at 4 more boards per 36 and they shoot nearly an identical average from deep, but tell me more about how Turner is better.

Myles Turner (74)!!!!!!!"

https://www.grizzlybearblues.com/2020/12/21/22191744/jonas-valanciunas-is-lithuanian-for-underrated-memphis-grizzlies-nba

While I agree with the authors sentiment, he's overlooking the defensive aspect. That said, it's rankings like this that help to drive Jonas value down. Good for contract negotiations (15m) bad for trade value.

Perception vs reality - The belief that Jonas playing style doesn't fit (reason for Raptor trade), has been debunked by Memphis.

What does Memphis get for their 15m investment - 15/11/2 on 60% eFG (7 WS) & a consummate teammate/professional who's more about winning than his individual numbers.

Depending on what Memphis future intentions are, it could be good that Jonas continues to fly under the radar. If they have designs to trade him they need to change perception.

A couple things. PER usually overrates bigs just FYI. JV is better than Turner, but people are hoping Turner has more potential that can maybe be realized if he plays on a different team not next to Sabonis. JV also gets knocked really hard for his inability to defend the PnR years ago in the playoffs when he was ultimately played off the floor. I mean he certainly couldn't have improved or anything over the last few years seeing as he is only now 28 :roll: .

The important thing though is that I expect other FOs to realize the value JV brings. Memphis shouldn't worry about what random opposing fans think of JV because the ones who think he is an overpaid plodding center aren't worth the effort. We have bigger things to worry about on our way to future contention. IF he gets moved I would expect the FO to know his value and be able to more or less extract it from opposing FOs who are paid to not let things go under their radars.
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Re: Jaren Jackson Jr and Valanciunas not on ESPN's top 100 list 

Post#7 » by Whole Truth » Wed Dec 23, 2020 1:43 pm

VCfor3 wrote: A couple things. PER usually overrates bigs just FYI. JV is better than Turner, but people are hoping Turner has more potential that can maybe be realized if he plays on a different team not next to Sabonis. JV also gets knocked really hard for his inability to defend the PnR years ago in the playoffs when he was ultimately played off the floor. I mean he certainly couldn't have improved or anything over the last few years seeing as he is only now 28 :roll: .

The important thing though is that I expect other FOs to realize the value JV brings. Memphis shouldn't worry about what random opposing fans think of JV because the ones who think he is an overpaid plodding center aren't worth the effort. We have bigger things to worry about on our way to future contention. IF he gets moved I would expect the FO to know his value and be able to more or less extract it from opposing FOs who are paid to not let things go under their radars.


I can wright a wall of text on why he was "played off the court" vs the Cavs.

Jonas was a key aspect of the Raptors getting to the Cavs, beating teams like Washington with Wall & Beal, Indiana with Paul George, Miami, Bucks with Giannis etc.. but Raptors could never hurdle the Cavs who's front court was able to play him off the floor. You see the key trend of Raptors advancing & not advancing ?.

Raptors couldn't hurdle the Cavs because they had a front court & offense that could "play Jonas off the floor".

Vs the Cavs, Raptors tried a strong athletic & mobile defensive big in BIzz. They also tried a very good small ball 5 in Ibaka. Not next to but in place of Jonas but it still resulted in not just losses but blow out losses. Why is it, if Jonas was the reason for Raptors not being able to advance past the Cavs, that a defensive big & good small ball 5 in Ibaka didn't move the needle ?..

The reason Jonas was played off the floor is because no matter how poor Derozan played on either end or how well Jonas played, Casey was never going to pull "Allstar" Derozan for defensive purposes over Jonas to compliment the big man with a better perimeter defender apposed to trying to cover Derozan's lack of defense with a Bizz or an Ibaka, which also yielded very poor results, regardless. There's a reason after spending his entire career being attached to Derozan's hip, he had his best defensive season with a rookie Memphis squad, where Ja, as a first year rookie & slim frame himself was a poor defender at the 1. He just wasn't as bad as Derozan who went on to collapse the Spurs defense causing them to miss the playoffs for the first time in years replacing Kawhi, who didn't even play the year they made the playoffs with 40+ wins. While Jonas had his best season with Memphis just missing a playoff birth, replacing Gasol & Conley, far exceeding expectations of both himself & team.

That unexpected success is rooted in the under-rating of Jonas impact as much as it was Ja's strong rookie season.
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Re: Jaren Jackson Jr and Valanciunas not on ESPN's top 100 list 

Post#8 » by macNcheese3 » Tue Jan 5, 2021 6:40 pm

Jackson Jr, should be on the list. He is a stud. Not 100 players better than him.
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Re: Jaren Jackson Jr and Valanciunas not on ESPN's top 100 list 

Post#9 » by E S V L » Tue Jan 5, 2021 9:27 pm

macNcheese3 wrote:Jackson Jr, should be on the list. He is a stud. Not 100 players better than him.


He is still a raw product. He hasn’t deserved his top-100 spot yet.
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Re: Jaren Jackson Jr and Valanciunas not on ESPN's top 100 list 

Post#10 » by Def Leppard » Wed Jan 6, 2021 6:17 pm

As a raps fan, val is constantly underrated. You should trade him back to us.

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Re: Jaren Jackson Jr and Valanciunas not on ESPN's top 100 list 

Post#11 » by SD2042 » Thu Jan 7, 2021 3:02 am

Def Leppard wrote:As a raps fan, val is constantly underrated. You should trade him back to us.

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no backsies. :lol:



Seriously though, what's your thoughts on the Raptors currently?
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Re: Jaren Jackson Jr and Valanciunas not on ESPN's top 100 list 

Post#12 » by JonFromVA » Fri Jan 8, 2021 8:23 pm

Whole Truth wrote:
VCfor3 wrote: A couple things. PER usually overrates bigs just FYI. JV is better than Turner, but people are hoping Turner has more potential that can maybe be realized if he plays on a different team not next to Sabonis. JV also gets knocked really hard for his inability to defend the PnR years ago in the playoffs when he was ultimately played off the floor. I mean he certainly couldn't have improved or anything over the last few years seeing as he is only now 28 :roll: .

The important thing though is that I expect other FOs to realize the value JV brings. Memphis shouldn't worry about what random opposing fans think of JV because the ones who think he is an overpaid plodding center aren't worth the effort. We have bigger things to worry about on our way to future contention. IF he gets moved I would expect the FO to know his value and be able to more or less extract it from opposing FOs who are paid to not let things go under their radars.


I can wright a wall of text on why he was "played off the court" vs the Cavs.

Jonas was a key aspect of the Raptors getting to the Cavs, beating teams like Washington with Wall & Beal, Indiana with Paul George, Miami, Bucks with Giannis etc.. but Raptors could never hurdle the Cavs who's front court was able to play him off the floor. You see the key trend of Raptors advancing & not advancing ?.

Raptors couldn't hurdle the Cavs because they had a front court & offense that could "play Jonas off the floor".

Vs the Cavs, Raptors tried a strong athletic & mobile defensive big in BIzz. They also tried a very good small ball 5 in Ibaka. Not next to but in place of Jonas but it still resulted in not just losses but blow out losses. Why is it, if Jonas was the reason for Raptors not being able to advance past the Cavs, that a defensive big & good small ball 5 in Ibaka didn't move the needle ?..

The reason Jonas was played off the floor is because no matter how poor Derozan played on either end or how well Jonas played, Casey was never going to pull "Allstar" Derozan for defensive purposes over Jonas to compliment the big man with a better perimeter defender apposed to trying to cover Derozan's lack of defense with a Bizz or an Ibaka, which also yielded very poor results, regardless. There's a reason after spending his entire career being attached to Derozan's hip, he had his best defensive season with a rookie Memphis squad, where Ja, as a first year rookie & slim frame himself was a poor defender at the 1. He just wasn't as bad as Derozan who went on to collapse the Spurs defense causing them to miss the playoffs for the first time in years replacing Kawhi, who didn't even play the year they made the playoffs with 40+ wins. While Jonas had his best season with Memphis just missing a playoff birth, replacing Gasol & Conley, far exceeding expectations of both himself & team.

That unexpected success is rooted in the under-rating of Jonas impact as much as it was Ja's strong rookie season.


Jonas had success in Toronto too, for instance this starting group (Lowry-DeRozan-Anunoby-Ibaka-Valanciunas) in '17/'18 was pretty good, but a team on the cusp needs to try to figure out how to tweak things to get over the top. It's a very different problem then trying to figure out a lineup that get you in to a tie for the 9th seed.
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Re: Jaren Jackson Jr and Valanciunas not on ESPN's top 100 list 

Post#13 » by Whole Truth » Sat Jan 9, 2021 12:32 am

JonFromVA wrote:
Jonas had success in Toronto too, for instance this starting group (Lowry-DeRozan-Anunoby-Ibaka-Valanciunas) in '17/'18 was pretty good, but a team on the cusp needs to try to figure out how to tweak things to get over the top. It's a very different problem then trying to figure out a lineup that get you in to a tie for the 9th seed.


I'm a Raptors fan that followed Jonas to Memphis, stayed to take part in their rebuild.

I was basically stating in my posts that while both Jonas & Derozan are good offensively, they were like oil & water defensively. Jonas however, played all his minutes as a starter next to Derozan who's a subpar wing defender. He very rarely over 8 seasons played against benches or in garbage time to inflate his value & or with a better defender than Derozan. This affects a players analytic value. A lot of the big men considered better than Jonas, in their extra 10-15 minutes per game, they do get to play against lesser competition in those extended minutes whereas 95+ of Jonas minutes are played against starters. His 60% eFG is against quality.

Small sample size of 8 GS to prove my theory/point but in the year Raptors traded for Leonard before Jonas was traded deadline. He & Ibaka where starting situationally at the 5 where in those 8 games started with Pascal, Leonard, Green, Lowry, that unit with Jonas was +22 in around 240 minutes sample size. Raptors with Jonas also ran over Philly during the regular season whereas Philly pushed them to 7 & a last minute buzzer beater in the playoffs with Gasol because his poor offense offset his good defense where Leonard had to carry the Raptors because Philly were able to put a wing on Gasol in the post (Shooting 8% in the post for the series) & switch effectively, shutting down everyone but Leonard playing 4 on 5. Jonas issue is he can be stretched but the reason they dominated teams like Philly/Magic is because they were poor shooting teams, where Cavs Love would stretch Jonas off the floor & most likely the slower footed Gasol who Boston stretched off the court last year in eliminating the Raptors. (Who by the way were better defensively, without Derozan).

If Jonas put up 16 shots a game he'd average no less than 20 pts on goof efficiency. Last year he averaged 15 pts on 10 FGA's, 60% eFG. His efficiency numbers are consistent over 8 seasons. He's top in the league in rebounding & efficiency/per, (7 WS) as stated by the article but struggles to defend in space. Which is why he needs to be complimented with defensive wings, as stated,

Reason why Memphis are a different team when Melton is in the rotation. He's very good with his long arms at pressuring the ball.
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Re: Jaren Jackson Jr and Valanciunas not on ESPN's top 100 list 

Post#14 » by JonFromVA » Sat Jan 9, 2021 3:12 am

Whole Truth wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Jonas had success in Toronto too, for instance this starting group (Lowry-DeRozan-Anunoby-Ibaka-Valanciunas) in '17/'18 was pretty good, but a team on the cusp needs to try to figure out how to tweak things to get over the top. It's a very different problem then trying to figure out a lineup that get you in to a tie for the 9th seed.


I'm a Raptors fan that followed Jonas to Memphis, stayed to take part in their rebuild.

I was basically stating in my posts that while both Jonas & Derozan are good offensively, they were like oil & water defensively. Jonas however, played all his minutes as a starter next to Derozan who's a subpar wing defender. He very rarely over 8 seasons played against benches or in garbage time to inflate his value & or with a better defender than Derozan. This affects a players analytic value. A lot of the big men considered better than Jonas, in their extra 10-15 minutes per game, they do get to play against lesser competition in those extended minutes whereas 95+ of Jonas minutes are played against starters. His 60% eFG is against quality.

Small sample size of 8 GS to prove my theory/point but in the year Raptors traded for Leonard before Jonas was traded deadline. He & Ibaka where starting situationally at the 5 where in those 8 games started with Pascal, Leonard, Green, Lowry, that unit with Jonas was +22 in around 240 minutes sample size. Raptors with Jonas also ran over Philly during the regular season whereas Philly pushed them to 7 & a last minute buzzer beater in the playoffs with Gasol because his poor offense offset his good defense where Leonard had to carry the Raptors because Philly were able to put a wing on Gasol in the post (Shooting 8% in the post for the series) & switch effectively, shutting down everyone but Leonard playing 4 on 5. Jonas issue is he can be stretched but the reason they dominated teams like Philly/Magic is because they were poor shooting teams, where Cavs Love would stretch Jonas off the floor & most likely the slower footed Gasol who Boston stretched off the court last year in eliminating the Raptors. (Who by the way were better defensively, without Derozan).

If Jonas put up 16 shots a game he'd average no less than 20 pts on goof efficiency. Last year he averaged 15 pts on 10 FGA's, 60% eFG. His efficiency numbers are consistent over 8 seasons. He's top in the league in rebounding & efficiency/per, (7 WS) as stated by the article but struggles to defend in space. Which is why he needs to be complimented with defensive wings, as stated,

Reason why Memphis are a different team when Melton is in the rotation. He's very good with his long arms at pressuring the ball.


Frankly the Griz's closeouts were not good vs the Cavs ... lots of open looks. With your big man hanging back, that's the risk ... that guy's like Larry Nance catch fire. The Cavs suffer plenty of that as well.
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Re: Jaren Jackson Jr and Valanciunas not on ESPN's top 100 list 

Post#15 » by Whole Truth » Sat Jan 9, 2021 1:25 pm

JonFromVA wrote:Frankly the Griz's closeouts were not good vs the Cavs ... lots of open looks. With your big man hanging back, that's the risk ... that guy's like Larry Nance catch fire. The Cavs suffer plenty of that as well.


Yeah, Grizz have had issues guarding the 3pt line. Even last year with a healthy 3J. It's where they've lost most of their matches.

Jonas is dominant situationally but the key for Memphis is 3J at the 4/5 who like Ibaka would makeup the other half of that dominance at the 5 spot for Memphis, as he can effectively do what Jonas cannot, which is guard in space, 1-5 & switch. Jonas is a flawed player defensively & will get burnt in certain matchups but for Memphis depending on the matchup 3J will move between the 4 /5 & mask those flaws effectively. Unfortunately he's injured .

Last year 3J was closing at the 5 for defensive purposes. What Jonas does in the first 3Q's is wear down his opponents with his physicality, so when 3J closes next to Clarke their defensive energy is felt on tired legs. I'm a proponent for quality big man depth & versatility. Lakers had Howard, McGee & Davis to rotate at the 5 last year & now in losing both McGee & Howard, Lakers with Davis went out & signed both Harrell & Gasol, a small ball 5 & a physical slow footed big. It allows them to be versatile in their play & the depth aids with injuries both in preventing & maintaining a level of play. Where in the past if Memphis lost Gasol ... they had no solution for him being out.

IMO a weak point for Clippers who have Kawhi & George.

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