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Memphis Grizzlies 2020-21 Preseason Games

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Whole Truth
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Re: Memphis Grizzlies 2020-21 Preseason Games 

Post#21 » by Whole Truth » Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:32 pm

Rough game for Bane. It's one thing that he's struggling trying to expand his game but he was also bricking wide open 3's. Part reason I was advocating for Bane to start besides his shooting skillset was to limit him to cuts & hitting the open 3. There's less need for him to create for himself with Ja, Jonas, Brooks & Anderson as a secondary ball handler.

When did Melton become automatic from 3 ???. He and Anderson have shown incredible improvement from range.

You know the team is good when they don't play well & still have a 19pt lead after 3 before the starters & bench are pulled for garbage time. It's overlooked because Hawks & Minnesota aren't good defensive teams but they both have high powered offenses that Memphis has held in check.

The excellent first quarter led to Memphis taking Atlanta for granted, resulted in some sloppy play in the 2nd Q, until Trey reignited Memphis with his flagrant on Allen.

Credit Atlanta's coaching staff, their defensive adjustments from game 1 held Jonas & Ja in check for the most part. Too bad Memphis are just a good, deep, squad. When defensive attention shifts there's someone to answer the call. Can't say it enough.. love what I'm seeing from Melton.

Side note - Simmons might get included in a Harden trade where WOJ claims Houston is looking for a 3rd party .. Would Memphis consider sending Houston pick/s to net Simmons in trade?. The defensive versatility of a 3J/Simmons front court with Ja getting out in transition. Memphis would also net another big wing defender to put on Lebron & Kawhi along with Winslow if they don't play Simmons at the 4/5 with Jonas & Clarke in the mix for different scenarios. Something to consider with the top of the draft looking out of reach for this team.
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Re: Memphis Grizzlies 2020-21 Preseason Games 

Post#22 » by E S V L » Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:13 pm

Whole Truth wrote:Rough game for Bane. It's one thing that he's struggling trying to expand his game but he was also bricking wide open 3's. Part reason I was advocating for Bane to start besides his shooting skillset was to limit him to cuts & hitting the open 3. There's less need for him to create for himself with Ja, Jonas, Brooks & Anderson as a secondary ball handler.

When did Melton become automatic from 3 ???. He and Anderson have shown incredible improvement from range.

You know the team is good when they don't play well & still have a 19pt lead after 3 before the starters & bench are pulled for garbage time. It's overlooked because Hawks & Minnesota aren't good defensive teams but they both have high powered offenses that Memphis has held in check.

The excellent first quarter led to Memphis taking Atlanta for granted, resulted in some sloppy play in the 2nd Q, until Trey reignited Memphis with his flagrant on Allen.

Credit Atlanta's coaching staff, their defensive adjustments from game 1 held Jonas & Ja in check for the most part. Too bad Memphis are just a good, deep, squad. When defensive attention shifts there's someone to answer the call. Can't say it enough.. love what I'm seeing from Melton.

Side note - Simmons might get included in a Harden trade where WOJ claims Houston is looking for a 3rd party .. Would Memphis consider sending Houston pick/s to net Simmons in trade?. The defensive versatility of a 3J/Simmons front court with Ja getting out in transition. Memphis would also net another big wing defender to put on Lebron & Kawhi along with Winslow if they don't play Simmons at the 4/5 with Jonas & Clarke in the mix for different scenarios. Something to consider with the top of the draft looking out of reach for this team.


Re Simmons, in my view, it should all depend on his shooting projection. If our FO believes in another Kyle-type of miracle, then they might see this opportunity as unique, if not unbelievable.
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Re: Memphis Grizzlies 2020-21 Preseason Games 

Post#23 » by Whole Truth » Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:33 pm

E S V L wrote: Re Simmons, in my view, it should all depend on his shooting projection. If our FO believes in another Kyle-type of miracle, then they might see this opportunity as unique, if not unbelievable.


Philly didn't have a PG like Ja to get the most out of Simmons in transition, he is/was their PG, so they could sag off him & crowd the paint, which in turn impacted Embiid. Running Simmons at the 4/5, playing him in the post with 3J stretching the paint & Ja creating is a different dynamic, where I fully believe Simmons would be far more effective here in Memphis than in Philly.

Defensively, he's elite, where Jenkins would have several options between him & Winslow to put on Lebron/Davis & Kawhi/George.

Ben Simmons/3J/Winslow/Brooks/Ja = modern day Ben Wallace Pistons. With Jonas/Clarke/Anderson/Melton/Tyus giving them starting quality depth.

My main concern if Memphis were to consider this, is the effect of his recent injury. If healthy I'd turn this Memphis development team loose on him, they've done incredible things with Anderson, Melton & Clarke who was expected to struggle from range.
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Re: Memphis Grizzlies 2020-21 Preseason Games 

Post#24 » by Whole Truth » Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:41 pm

Look at how Bucks utilize Giannis. Difference here once again, is Bucks like Philly have the ball in Giannis & Simmons hands as their main creators.

Memphis has Ja, where Simmons would be defense, transition, secondary ball handling. Not the primary ball handler teams can sag off of & dare to shoot.

The shooting does limit his ceiling but I think Memphis can get more out of him than Philly did.
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Re: Memphis Grizzlies 2020-21 Preseason Games 

Post#25 » by E S V L » Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:59 pm

Whole Truth wrote:
E S V L wrote: Re Simmons, in my view, it should all depend on his shooting projection. If our FO believes in another Kyle-type of miracle, then they might see this opportunity as unique, if not unbelievable.


Philly didn't have a PG like Ja to get the most out of Simmons in transition, he is/was their PG, so they could sag off him & crowd the paint, which in turn impacted Embiid. Running Simmons at the 4/5, playing him in the post with 3J stretching the paint & Ja creating is a different dynamic, where I fully believe Simmons would be far more effective here in Memphis than in Philly.

Defensively, he's elite, where Jenkins would have several options between him & Winslow to put on Lebron/Davis & Kawhi/George.

Ben Simmons/3J/Winslow/Brooks/Ja = modern day Ben Wallace Pistons. With Jonas/Clarke/Anderson/Melton/Tyus giving them starting quality depth.

My main concern if Memphis were to consider this, is the effect of his recent injury. If healthy I'd turn this Memphis development team loose on him, they've done incredible things with Anderson, Melton & Clarke who was expected to struggle from range.


You have convinced me. What would be the price then?
1. JJJ
2. Clarke + 3 picks
3. 4 picks + 2 swaps?
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Re: Memphis Grizzlies 2020-21 Preseason Games 

Post#26 » by Whole Truth » Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:03 pm

E S V L wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:
E S V L wrote: Re Simmons, in my view, it should all depend on his shooting projection. If our FO believes in another Kyle-type of miracle, then they might see this opportunity as unique, if not unbelievable.


Philly didn't have a PG like Ja to get the most out of Simmons in transition, he is/was their PG, so they could sag off him & crowd the paint, which in turn impacted Embiid. Running Simmons at the 4/5, playing him in the post with 3J stretching the paint & Ja creating is a different dynamic, where I fully believe Simmons would be far more effective here in Memphis than in Philly.

Defensively, he's elite, where Jenkins would have several options between him & Winslow to put on Lebron/Davis & Kawhi/George.

Ben Simmons/3J/Winslow/Brooks/Ja = modern day Ben Wallace Pistons. With Jonas/Clarke/Anderson/Melton/Tyus giving them starting quality depth.

My main concern if Memphis were to consider this, is the effect of his recent injury. If healthy I'd turn this Memphis development team loose on him, they've done incredible things with Anderson, Melton & Clarke who was expected to struggle from range.


You have convinced me. What would be the price then?
1. JJJ
2. Clarke + 3 picks
3. 4 picks + 2 swaps?


If it's of the 3 choices you listed, #2. Memphis could run Anderson next to Jonas off the bench, while starting 3J & Simmons.

(Dieng, Clarke, Memphis 21 top 4 protected, Utah FRP, GS FRP).
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Re: Memphis Grizzlies 2020-21 Preseason Games 

Post#27 » by Whole Truth » Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:56 pm

With Ja, Winslow & Simmons. Memphis would have 3 capable ball handlers & playmakers at the 1,3 & 5. With both Simmons & Winslow being big wing defenders versatile enough to guard 1-5.

Memphis could start a game out with Jonas/3J/Simmons/Brooks/Ja, & a bench of Tillman/Anderson/Winslow/Melton/Tyus

& close defensively in (I can't even call it small ball a quicker lineup with 3J being 7') Switchable defense of 3J/Simmons/(Winslow or Brooks or Melton)/Ja.

Memphis would need Winslow to hit the 3 ball at a decent clip & Tillman would be questionable replacing Dieng.
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Re: Memphis Grizzlies 2020-21 Preseason Games 

Post#28 » by E S V L » Sun Dec 20, 2020 7:07 pm

Whole Truth wrote:With Ja, Winslow & Simmons. Memphis would have 3 capable ball handlers & playmakers at the 1,3 & 5. With both Simmons & Winslow being big wing defenders versatile enough to guard 1-5.

Memphis could start a game out with Jonas/3J/Simmons/Brooks/Ja, & a bench of Tillman/Anderson/Winslow/Melton/Tyus

& close defensively in (I can't even call it small ball a quicker lineup with 3J being 7') Switchable defense of 3J/Simmons/Winslow/(Brooks or Melton)/Ja.

Memphis would need Winslow to hit the 3 ball at a decent clip & Tillman would be questionable replacing Dieng.


1. You are too much counting on Winslow. I don’t believe he is a part of our long term plan.

2. Simmons can defend 5? How effectively?

3. Finally, is Simmons > Clarke + 3 picks (say they will turn into at least two more “Clarkes”)
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Re: Memphis Grizzlies 2020-21 Preseason Games 

Post#29 » by Whole Truth » Sun Dec 20, 2020 7:12 pm

E S V L wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:With Ja, Winslow & Simmons. Memphis would have 3 capable ball handlers & playmakers at the 1,3 & 5. With both Simmons & Winslow being big wing defenders versatile enough to guard 1-5.

Memphis could start a game out with Jonas/3J/Simmons/Brooks/Ja, & a bench of Tillman/Anderson/Winslow/Melton/Tyus

& close defensively in (I can't even call it small ball a quicker lineup with 3J being 7') Switchable defense of 3J/Simmons/Winslow/(Brooks or Melton)/Ja.

Memphis would need Winslow to hit the 3 ball at a decent clip & Tillman would be questionable replacing Dieng.


1. You are too much counting on Winslow. I don’t believe he is a part of our long term plan.

2. Simmons can defend 5? How effectively?

3. Finally, is Simmons > Clarke + 3 picks (say they will turn into at least two more “Clarkes”)


I'm not counting on an injured player, I'm projecting Winslow's fit in this. Memphis can fill the SG/SF positions with Anderson, Brooks & Melton, if Winslow can't be relied upon. That said, if Winslow is healthy, in our Raptors series that saw Whiteside go down for the Heat Winslow was tasked with playing the 5 for the Heat & he out played Bizz to help Heat tale the series to 7. Simmons has better length, if he cannot guard the 5, he'd be a 4 on defense, 5 on offense.

Is Simmons better than that package, I think so but I can't determine the future. There's a scenario where Houston lucks into the best case scenario with all 3 picks, which is doubtful but possible.

Closer to the present, I don't think this team is bad enough for a top pick outside of luck which is why I have the pick protected against luck. So outside of a luck factor Simmons is better than what Memphis will probably be able to draft. Gobert resigned with Utah which hurts the Utah picks value & Minnesota look like they can hand GS a top 5-10 pick to follow up them drafting Wiseman which gives them a 2yr head start on a projected rebuild.
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Re: Memphis Grizzlies 2020-21 Preseason Games 

Post#30 » by VCfor3 » Sun Dec 20, 2020 7:22 pm

Whole Truth wrote:
E S V L wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:With Ja, Winslow & Simmons. Memphis would have 3 capable ball handlers & playmakers at the 1,3 & 5. With both Simmons & Winslow being big wing defenders versatile enough to guard 1-5.

Memphis could start a game out with Jonas/3J/Simmons/Brooks/Ja, & a bench of Tillman/Anderson/Winslow/Melton/Tyus

& close defensively in (I can't even call it small ball a quicker lineup with 3J being 7') Switchable defense of 3J/Simmons/Winslow/(Brooks or Melton)/Ja.

Memphis would need Winslow to hit the 3 ball at a decent clip & Tillman would be questionable replacing Dieng.


1. You are too much counting on Winslow. I don’t believe he is a part of our long term plan.

2. Simmons can defend 5? How effectively?

3. Finally, is Simmons > Clarke + 3 picks (say they will turn into at least two more “Clarkes”)


I'm not counting on, I'm projecting Winslow's fit. Memphis can fill SG/SF position with Anderson, Brooks & Melton if Winslow can't be relied upon. That said if Winslow is healthy in our Raptors series that saw Whiteside go down for the Heat Winslow was tasked with playing the 5 for the Heat & he out played Bizz to help Heat tale the series to 7. Simmons has better length, if he cannot guard the 5, he'd be a 4 on defense, 5 on offense.

Is Simmons better than that package, I think so but I can't determine the future. There's a scenario where Houston lucks into the best case scenario with all 3 picks, which is doubtful but possible.

Simmons can defend 1-5 (though I wouldn't want to regularly count on him against big centers) and would immediately become our top wing defender. He'll make All Defense teams at least a few times this decade. He'd elevate our defense and be an elite secondary playmaker next to Ja. I think Winslow would be moved to the bench and a better shooter would start if we acquired Simmons. Or we would use Winslow in the trade for Simmons as an asset.
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Re: Memphis Grizzlies 2020-21 Preseason Games 

Post#31 » by Whole Truth » Sun Dec 20, 2020 7:24 pm

VCfor3 wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:
E S V L wrote:
1. You are too much counting on Winslow. I don’t believe he is a part of our long term plan.

2. Simmons can defend 5? How effectively?

3. Finally, is Simmons > Clarke + 3 picks (say they will turn into at least two more “Clarkes”)


I'm not counting on, I'm projecting Winslow's fit. Memphis can fill SG/SF position with Anderson, Brooks & Melton if Winslow can't be relied upon. That said if Winslow is healthy in our Raptors series that saw Whiteside go down for the Heat Winslow was tasked with playing the 5 for the Heat & he out played Bizz to help Heat tale the series to 7. Simmons has better length, if he cannot guard the 5, he'd be a 4 on defense, 5 on offense.

Is Simmons better than that package, I think so but I can't determine the future. There's a scenario where Houston lucks into the best case scenario with all 3 picks, which is doubtful but possible.

Simmons can defend 1-5 (though I wouldn't want to regularly count on him against big centers) and would immediately become our top wing defender. He'll make All Defense teams at least a few times this decade. He'd elevate our defense and be an elite secondary playmaker next to Ja. I think Winslow would be moved to the bench and a better shooter would start if we acquired Simmons. Or we would use Winslow in the trade for Simmons as an asset.


That's what Jonas is for .. We close with Jaren & Simmons in "small ball" switch everything defense where even Winslow is capable perimeter to post.

Dieng, Winslow, Allen & picks ?
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Re: Memphis Grizzlies 2020-21 Preseason Games 

Post#32 » by VCfor3 » Sun Dec 20, 2020 7:30 pm

Rockets fan from the Trade Board wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=19

Taking this with a pillar of salt, don't really know who he is, but a few people who cover the team vouch for him


Edit: Apparently he's pretty legit, been covering the Rockets locally longer than I've been alive and doesn't just say things. I don't live in houston which is why I'm not privy to any radio guys


That is from the Trade board. Simmons may not be nearly as available as is reported and even if he is it would take a lot of value to reroute him to us and for us to provide enough value to top a package of Brown+ or Siakim+ though it really depends on what the "more" is.
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Re: Memphis Grizzlies 2020-21 Preseason Games 

Post#33 » by Whole Truth » Sun Dec 20, 2020 7:35 pm

VCfor3 wrote:
Rockets fan from the Trade Board wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=19

Taking this with a pillar of salt, don't really know who he is, but a few people who cover the team vouch for him


Edit: Apparently he's pretty legit, been covering the Rockets locally longer than I've been alive and doesn't just say things. I don't live in houston which is why I'm not privy to any radio guys


That is from the Trade board. Simmons may not be nearly as available as is reported and even if he is it would take a lot of value to reroute him to us and for us to provide enough value to top a package of Brown+ or Siakim+ though it really depends on what the "more" is.


It depends on what Houston wants.

If they want to bottom out for 21, they could prefer financial relief to those players large contracts, they could prefer rookie scale & control to already maxed out players with no other promising youth around them to successfully build with them. It's that scenario that reduces the time to build around said player before potentially losing them to FA.

Do you know if they are planning to retool or rebuild ?.

PS. all of Brown, Pascal & Simmons Memphis should try to snip in trade if Houston can be swayed by picks, Memphis look ready for playoff contention.
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Re: Memphis Grizzlies 2020-21 Preseason Games 

Post#34 » by E S V L » Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:09 pm

Whole Truth wrote:
VCfor3 wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:
I'm not counting on, I'm projecting Winslow's fit. Memphis can fill SG/SF position with Anderson, Brooks & Melton if Winslow can't be relied upon. That said if Winslow is healthy in our Raptors series that saw Whiteside go down for the Heat Winslow was tasked with playing the 5 for the Heat & he out played Bizz to help Heat tale the series to 7. Simmons has better length, if he cannot guard the 5, he'd be a 4 on defense, 5 on offense.

Is Simmons better than that package, I think so but I can't determine the future. There's a scenario where Houston lucks into the best case scenario with all 3 picks, which is doubtful but possible.

Simmons can defend 1-5 (though I wouldn't want to regularly count on him against big centers) and would immediately become our top wing defender. He'll make All Defense teams at least a few times this decade. He'd elevate our defense and be an elite secondary playmaker next to Ja. I think Winslow would be moved to the bench and a better shooter would start if we acquired Simmons. Or we would use Winslow in the trade for Simmons as an asset.


That's what Jonas is for .. We close with Jaren & Simmons in "small ball" switch everything defense where even Winslow is capable perimeter to post.

Dieng, Winslow, Allen & picks ?


That package is closer to Otto Porter than Simmons.

Clarke + Winslow + Dieng and 3 1sts is more realistic.
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Re: Memphis Grizzlies 2020-21 Preseason Games 

Post#35 » by E S V L » Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:18 pm

It is interesting discussion as though we have some serious problems with our defence or second playmaking... Our defence relies on collective high IQ performance, not on individual 1-on-1 skills. Kyle is close to Simmons as a prototype, though obviously less mobile and physical, but Kyle can stretch and he doesn’t cost us Clarke and 1sts.
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Re: Memphis Grizzlies 2020-21 Preseason Games 

Post#36 » by Whole Truth » Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:59 pm

E S V L wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:
VCfor3 wrote:Simmons can defend 1-5 (though I wouldn't want to regularly count on him against big centers) and would immediately become our top wing defender. He'll make All Defense teams at least a few times this decade. He'd elevate our defense and be an elite secondary playmaker next to Ja. I think Winslow would be moved to the bench and a better shooter would start if we acquired Simmons. Or we would use Winslow in the trade for Simmons as an asset.


That's what Jonas is for .. We close with Jaren & Simmons in "small ball" switch everything defense where even Winslow is capable perimeter to post.

Dieng, Winslow, Allen & picks ?


That package is closer to Otto Porter than Simmons.

Clarke + Winslow + Dieng and 3 1sts is more realistic.


Lakers & Clippers gave up large pick deals because they were expected to be championship level squads, where those picks are more quantity than quality.

Memphis are a young team that could still fall into the lottery. The projected value is different.

Of all the picks that OKC or NO's got for their star players, which holds the most value?. How many have the potential to be lottery worthy?.
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Re: Memphis Grizzlies 2020-21 Preseason Games 

Post#37 » by E S V L » Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:40 pm

Whole Truth wrote:
E S V L wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:
That's what Jonas is for .. We close with Jaren & Simmons in "small ball" switch everything defense where even Winslow is capable perimeter to post.

Dieng, Winslow, Allen & picks ?


That package is closer to Otto Porter than Simmons.

Clarke + Winslow + Dieng and 3 1sts is more realistic.


Lakers & Clippers gave up large pick deals because they were expected to be championship level squads, where those picks are more quantity than quality.

Memphis are a young team that could still fall into the lottery. The projected value is different.

Of all the picks that OKC or NO's got for their star players, which holds the most value?. How many have the potential to be lottery worthy?.


I see your point, but some might argue that George and A.Davis can stretch, unlike Simmons. Offensively, Simmons couldn’t add as much value comparing to the alleged price as George and Davis.
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Re: Memphis Grizzlies 2020-21 Preseason Games 

Post#38 » by Whole Truth » Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:09 pm

E S V L wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:
E S V L wrote:
That package is closer to Otto Porter than Simmons.

Clarke + Winslow + Dieng and 3 1sts is more realistic.


Lakers & Clippers gave up large pick deals because they were expected to be championship level squads, where those picks are more quantity than quality.

Memphis are a young team that could still fall into the lottery. The projected value is different.

Of all the picks that OKC or NO's got for their star players, which holds the most value?. How many have the potential to be lottery worthy?.


I see your point, but some might argue that George and A.Davis can stretch, unlike Simmons. Offensively, Simmons couldn’t add as much value comparing to the alleged price as George and Davis.


Value is relative to perception, want & need. A team that's in need of shooting won't value Simmons the same. If you have reservations about Simmons shooting ability ... so do others, which drags down his value. Your reservation, is testament to the value being fair.

I believe Memphis can effectively house him at the 4/5. I also believe in this development team.

Simmons is still only 24, proven & elite at everything except spacing. Which will help Memphis fast track unlocking the teams potential. Keeping in mind that the value given up is still retained in the player traded for, where the potential to flip him in trade exists as a possibility.
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Re: Memphis Grizzlies 2020-21 Preseason Games 

Post#39 » by Whole Truth » Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:54 pm

Hollinger said a Minnesota package would be (DLo, Culver, Ed Davis and first round pick) for (Harden)

Am I alone in thinking that's a weak package ?. Am I under-rating DLo's value or is Hollinger over-rating him ?.

If you look at DLo's value it's Wiggins negative contract & Minnesota's 2021 top 4 protected pick

DLo = Dieng, Winslow > Wiggins negative salary + Memphis 2021 pick top 4 protected.

Culver was a top 10 pick but put up a subpar rookie campaign.

Culver < Clarke's value, outside of preference & projections.

A trade for Simmons, not Harden - (Dieng, Winslow, Clarke, Memphis FRP 21 top 4 protected) for (SImmons).
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Re: Memphis Grizzlies 2020-21 Preseason Games 

Post#40 » by Whole Truth » Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:29 pm

ESVL - a Philly fan posted this.

"Simmons/Embiid/any other 3 was a 99th percentile lineup prior to inexplicably wedging Al Horford in".

Memphis would have 3J/Simmons/ " " / " "/Ja. Where Philly could only wish to have Ja running point for Embiid & Simmons. So how does 3J stack up to Embiid in this scenario ?.

Embiid is a good defender but I think 3J & Simmons would be more dynamic defensively because to probably preserve Embiid's healthy, Philly chose to have him sag defensively, where 3J is capable perimeter to post.

Offensively 3J is one of the best shooting young big men in the league on volume & he doesn't occupy clog the paint like Embiid. Which allows Memphis to play Simmons in the post as a playmaker, minimalizing his weakness with positioning.

Memphis would have some combo of Winslow/Brooks/Melton/Allen to fill out the wing with varying skillsets & Jonas to handle the big centre's in the league, where if they play big & slow Memphis would have a big lineup with Simmons at the 3, that can still get out in transition..

Jonas/Anderson/Winslow/Allen/Tyus is a starting quality bench, depth.

My main reservation for wanting to deal for Simmons, would be his health status coming off a recent injury.

This means Memphis can trade Dieng's expiring, Clarke, Potentially Winslow/Allen, in a pick package without affecting the quality of this teams depth..

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