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Memphis 2021 Offseason Discussion

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E S V L
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Re: Memphis 2021 Offseason Discussion 

Post#21 » by E S V L » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:52 pm

Whole Truth wrote:I was reading the Boston board concerning Brown & the chances of them moving him. The general consensus I got is they would move him for either Beal or Brown to make the best of having Tatum before he might becomes disgruntled. There's also some belief, Brown could potentially walk in 3yrs also to cash in now...

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2021/06/07/celtics-damian-lillard-trade-chris-mannix/?p1=hp_featurestack

Here's what I'm thinking, Both Washington & Portland are currently in no mans land with supposedly better franchise talent than Brown so there might be some interest in an overpaying, rebuilding package to divert Brown to Memphis.

The frame work.

Washington/Portland choose to blow it up - trade Dame or Beal for a rebuilding package with an overpayment of picks

Boston trade Brown to get what they feel is a better fit next to Tatum - Dame or Beal

Memphis trade - considerable rebuilding package/picks for Brown.

Trade suggestion.

Portland trade - (Dame) for (3J, Boston 21 #16, Memphis 21 #17, Utah 22 top 6, GS 2024 top 4)

Boston trade - (Brown, R, Williams, #16) for (Dame, Melton)

Memphis trade - (3J, Melton, Memphis #17, Utah 22 top 6, GS 2024 top 4) for (Brown, R. Williams).


It looks reasonable. I wonder what Boston and Portland fans think about it. I guess Boston will ask for removal of R.Wiilams and addition of Thompson. Do you expect they will be able to send Melton and Kemba to Detroit?
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Re: Memphis 2021 Offseason Discussion 

Post#22 » by Whole Truth » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:01 pm

E S V L wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:I was reading the Boston board concerning Brown & the chances of them moving him. The general consensus I got is they would move him for either Beal or Brown to make the best of having Tatum before he might becomes disgruntled. There's also some belief, Brown could potentially walk in 3yrs also to cash in now...

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2021/06/07/celtics-damian-lillard-trade-chris-mannix/?p1=hp_featurestack

Here's what I'm thinking, Both Washington & Portland are currently in no mans land with supposedly better franchise talent than Brown so there might be some interest in an overpaying, rebuilding package to divert Brown to Memphis.

The frame work.

Washington/Portland choose to blow it up - trade Dame or Beal for a rebuilding package with an overpayment of picks

Boston trade Brown to get what they feel is a better fit next to Tatum - Dame or Beal

Memphis trade - considerable rebuilding package/picks for Brown.

Trade suggestion.

Portland trade - (Dame) for (3J, Boston 21 #16, Memphis 21 #17, Utah 22 top 6, GS 2024 top 4)

Boston trade - (Brown, R, Williams, #16) for (Dame, Melton)

Memphis trade - (3J, Melton, Memphis #17, Utah 22 top 6, GS 2024 top 4) for (Brown, R. Williams).


It looks reasonable. I wonder what Boston and Portland fans think about it. I guess Boston will ask for removal of R.Wiilams and addition of Thompson. Do you expect they will be able to send Melton and Kemba to Detroit?


It's my assumption that in trading either Dame or Beal the best course of action for those teams is to bottom out with a player under more control than 3yrs like Brown, they're both headed in the wrong direction trading their franchise players even though Brown is a nice proven asset, if they struggle, would they be able to retain him with only 3 yrs remaining until he's a UFA, where with the rebuilding package, they'd have greater control over a younger potential talent like 3J who's still on his rookie deal + a plethora of picks to also not be in no mans land as they try to win in order to entice Brown to remain where Dame is also perceived the better overall talent though older.

Boston fans think it would take Brown + to land Dame but there's concern with his age but they came to the realization that they might also only have Brown for 3 more years also..

Melton/Williams was a late add to my trade suggestion, they can be taken out & Memphis can target another mid to late pick in a subsequent trade & draft your pick, Garuba..

I also put a feeler out on Ingram on the Boston board I have yet to check. If NO's is interested in 3J + for Ingram, if Boston has any interest in Ingram for Brown, flip Ingram, which might be better fits for both teams with what ever remaining value negotiated for either team. Expand the trade if need be..

I'll look to see if anyone responded.
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Re: Memphis 2021 Offseason Discussion 

Post#23 » by Whole Truth » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:21 pm

None responded to my suggestion of Ingram, there's only been talk of pairing Beal with Tatum since..

If that's the case I think my belief could apply to Washington as well. I don't think they can turn it around in the 3yrs to keep Brown from walking..

Give them a rebuilding package & flip Beal for Brown.

Why I think the fact Brown only has 3yrs left is less of a factor for Memphis is where they sit currently in relation to either of those teams with young improving talent. Memphis are on the verge of being contenders & Brown possibly puts them there.

Just need to find another long term C/big man option/replacement for losing 3J, which is why I tried to include Williams as the defensive big compliment to having Jonas at C. I haven't checked to see if there's anyone available in free agency to potentially fill that void..
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Re: Memphis 2021 Offseason Discussion 

Post#24 » by Whole Truth » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:27 pm

Oh... & Clippers down 2-0 to a Conley less Jazz squad while getting a far better whistle.

That series could be so much better if everyone wasn't flopping all over the place but if you reward players for flopping, why wouldn't they.. Cousins flops are as bad as DM's, that one play where he had nowhere to go with defenders surrounding him, he just threw himself on the floor & got a whistle, lol.

How good has Ingles been? he's going to get paid.. Hopefully by someone other than the Jazz which will help the 22 pick..

Memphis have any interest in a player like Ingles?.

Poach him & improve the picks chances in one swing.
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Re: Memphis 2021 Offseason Discussion 

Post#25 » by Whole Truth » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:13 pm

Taken from the GB

"Jazz's interior defense has dropped the Clippers' paint scoring by 24 percentage points compared to the Mavs series.

Clippers are shooting 36% in the paint vs Jazz apposed to 60% vs Mavs.".
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Re: Memphis 2021 Offseason Discussion 

Post#26 » by Whole Truth » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:53 pm

Looks like Boston fans are zeroing on trading Brown for Beal.

If Washington will take a rebuilding package where they get value with better control for Brown who only has 3yrs control, Memphis could be in business.

For Vic trying to hold onto 3J

Clarke
Melton
Porter JR
Memphis #17
Utah 22 top 6 protected
Memphis FRP lightly protected.
GS 2024 top 4 to unprotected.
2 rights to swap

Jonas / Tillman - 3J
3J / Anderson - Tillie
Brown / Bane - Konchar
Brooks / Allen
Ja / Jones

Small ball defensive lineup

3J
Anderson
Brown
Brooks
Ja
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Re: Memphis 2021 Offseason Discussion 

Post#27 » by Whole Truth » Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:35 pm

NBA analysis Goodman suggested “Jaylen Brown and Robert Williams and a first-round pick for Bradley Beal — he’s tight with Tatum. That’s the one I would do.”

Chris Mannix suggests if Boston lands Kidd it could indicate Dame going to Boston with Brown as the centre piece in trade.

I think Memphis putting in an overpayment rebuilding package could derail Brown to Memphis. Where both Portland & Washington would be better off getting a package with more control than Browns 3 remaining yrs to being a UFA.

If both teams couldn't win with supposedly 2 superior players..., how do either appease Brown to stay with only 3yrs control ?.

Memphis on the other hand as the youngest team to make the playoffs since OKC have so far done a better job than the Clippers taking it to Utah considering they're also currently playing without Conley. I believe if Memphis had Brown to put on DM & Brooks to put on Conley .... Utah wouldn't have been able to punch the holes they did into Memphis defense with Brooks in foul trouble & spread thin being the most capable of guarding either or both Conley & DM.

In short I think Brown takes Memphis into contender status & if Memphis could build a good enough pick package with 2 nice young players like Melton & Clarke to possibly hold onto 3J... even better.
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Re: Memphis 2021 Offseason Discussion 

Post#28 » by Whole Truth » Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:03 am

LMAO, Utah starts out game 3 10-3 then proceed to get 7 fouls called against them including an offensive bump on Gobert. Clippers now lead 16-13, lol.
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Re: Memphis 2021 Offseason Discussion 

Post#29 » by Whole Truth » Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:38 am

If Memphis can't go all in on someone like Brown.

Alternative option for Memphis/Boston, moving Walkers contract.

Memphis trade - (Winslow, Melton, Jones)

- Creates a 28m trade exception for Boston, gives them a 22yo talent in Melton & sheds 25m in salary

Boston trade - (Walker, 21 #16, 24 unprotected pick) - The year after Brown becomes a UFA.
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Re: Memphis 2021 Offseason Discussion 

Post#30 » by E S V L » Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:35 pm

Whole Truth wrote:If Memphis can't go all in on someone like Brown.

Alternative option for Memphis/Boston, moving Walkers contract.

Memphis trade - (Winslow, Melton, Jones)

- Creates a 28m trade exception for Boston, gives them a 22yo talent in Melton & sheds 25m in salary

Boston trade - (Walker, 21 #16, 24 unprotected pick) - The year after Brown becomes a UFA.


This doesn`t make sense to me, bro. We have to focus on bringing a true star and, as such, should be ready for an opportunity once it comes. In this sense, it would be better to just sit on 20m cap space holding our 6 1st round picks:

And wait...
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Re: Memphis 2021 Offseason Discussion 

Post#31 » by E S V L » Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:39 pm

Whole Truth wrote:LMAO, Utah starts out game 3 10-3 then proceed to get 7 fouls called against them including an offensive bump on Gobert. Clippers now lead 16-13, lol.


Look also what the Bucks were allowed to do on the defensive end in their home games. If we got even 50% of this freedom from officials, we would crush Utah 4-0.
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Re: Memphis 2021 Offseason Discussion 

Post#32 » by Whole Truth » Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:26 pm

E S V L wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:If Memphis can't go all in on someone like Brown.

Alternative option for Memphis/Boston, moving Walkers contract.

Memphis trade - (Winslow, Melton, Jones)

- Creates a 28m trade exception for Boston, gives them a 22yo talent in Melton & sheds 25m in salary

Boston trade - (Walker, 21 #16, 24 unprotected pick) - The year after Brown becomes a UFA.


This doesn`t make sense to me, bro. We have to focus on bringing a true star and, as such, should be ready for an opportunity once it comes. In this sense, it would be better to just sit on 20m cap space holding our 6 1st round picks:

And wait...


Kay?

How does this not accomplish that? It's opportunity to maximize Melton's value with expiring value for Boston's 16th & unprotected FRP.

Boston #16
Memphis #17
Utah 22 top 6
GS 24 top 4
Boston 24 unprotected

Would those acquired pick assets not go a long way in potentially acquiring a star or in trading up ?.

If Melton being included is the issue, replace his value & adjust the trade.
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Re: Memphis 2021 Offseason Discussion 

Post#33 » by Whole Truth » Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:48 pm

E S V L wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:LMAO, Utah starts out game 3 10-3 then proceed to get 7 fouls called against them including an offensive bump on Gobert. Clippers now lead 16-13, lol.


Look also what the Bucks were allowed to do on the defensive end in their home games. If we got even 50% of this freedom from officials, we would crush Utah 4-0.


Didn't catch the Bucks match but Memphis could at the very least stole one more from Utah if officials didn't call the series the way they did. Gobert was allowed to be physical in order to take the paint advantage away from Memphis, while Brooks was castrated in defending DM/Conley. They call the games as though they have scouting reports.

Clippers needed the help. They were struggling to beat the Jazz without Conley & it was a home LA game to boot..

After I made that original post I didn't bother watch the rest of the game, I already knew the outcome in the first half of the first Q... 7 fouls straight ... dug the Clippers out of an early deficit & tipped momentum where this could have got away early in the road, silenced the crowd. It showed intent. Only one team was supposedly committing fouls.

.
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Re: Memphis 2021 Offseason Discussion 

Post#34 » by MemphisX » Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:05 am

I am not taking any build with Jonas at the 5 as a serious attempt at title contention. Defense is to terrible and not dynamic enough on offense to make up for it. Plus he occupies the space on offense that the Grizzlies best player operates.

It is time to sink or swim with Jaren at the 5 full-time.
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Re: Memphis 2021 Offseason Discussion 

Post#35 » by boogiesdad » Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:35 pm

Here is my two cents on the matter:

Release Justice and save $13 million- this reduces the cap down to $87 million.
Preserve the rest of the base as is and let them grow together.
If the cap is at $112 million, as projected next year, that gives us $25 million to play with. However, preserving that would be huge for when its really needed. Jonas needs an extension, Ja is going to want the max, others on the team have extensions coming up soon.

We need a back up C. Jonas really stepped up this year, but when he is off the court, it creates a huge whole.

3 point shooting, or the lack there of is killing us. Ja was the top shot maker on 3's averaging 2.0 per game, but he ranking #38 in the league. That weakness was exploited by Utah. There are some free agents that could help us in this area, Conley, Smart, Barton (player option). Of course that doesn't mean that everyone is a perfect or a realistic option.

Personally, I'd like to see a trade of:

K. Anderson
D. Melton

to DEN for

W. Barton
Bol Bol

Neither Barton or Bol are the fix, but "slo mo" might be a jack of all trades, but Ja needs the ball. "slo mo" is getting better at shooting, but is not going to be the person to look to for 3's. Barton is and has been improving for years in Denver and can jump right into the SF position and bring an upgrade to shooting.

Bol seemed to have all of the tools in college, albeit a brief stint, He will be stuck on the bench forever in Denver, but brings length and shooting from the 5, that in brief stints, could reduce the drop off when Jonas is out of the game.

We have a 1st and 2nd round pick this year, but we really don't need these picks as more youth is not what we need. We need veteran leadership. However, these could be great picks to invest in overseas talent that may be a year or two away from coming over, or players that could go to the D-league for a season or so.

Biggest thing this team needs is some rest, get everyone healthy, and a solid off season of conditioning. Practice shooting 3's and build on the team chenistry.
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Re: Memphis 2021 Offseason Discussion 

Post#36 » by Whole Truth » Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:24 pm

I see some false information being spread about Jonas not being able to perform in the playoffs. He was 4 for 4 starting in the East with 2 losses coming to the Lebron led Cavs.

3 of the 5 series lost by the Raptors have come at the hands of Lebron's Cavs, 1 of which Jonas was out with injury. The Cavs, a team who in their 3 finals appearances, beat a prime GS Warriors for a tittle. So it's not as though Jonas/Raptors continually lost to a scrub team either.

Of the 6 other teams faced in the playoffs by Jonas/Raptors, if not for a last possession loss in game 7 by Garnett/Paul Nets, they would have won 5 of 6 series against the rest of the East. With wins over PG/Pacers, Wade/Miami, Giannis/Bucks, Beal,Wall/Washington (retribution for their earlier series sweep in whic Jonas averaged under 25mins) as the only other instance of a team outside of the Cavs beating the Raptors with Jonas starting but I'm hearing Memphis can't win in the playoffs with Jonas, lol.

A conclusion drawn by the fact the #1 seed, a bad matchup & a finals contender beat the youngest team since OKC in 5 games.

Here's another fact. Jonas being a big reason Raptors beat both PG/Pacers & Wade/Miami on road to an ECF's appearance vs Cavs. He got hurt in the Miami series & didn't play vs the Cavs that year.. funny that, they didn't win without Jonas either, with neither Bizz or Ibaka at C. Just like Memphis would have been swept by Utah, if Jonas wasn't a +15 in game 1. A 1 possession win, with Jaren being a team high -19 followed by Tillman -10. Where If the other Memphis big men/small ball defenders were viable options, Jenkins would have went to them. Not only were they not able to handle Gobert & Favors size/strength/length, Memphis lost the offensive rebounds/2nd chance points with anyone other than Jonas on court.

Matchup wise, Utah are Cavs with better post defense & like the Cavs, they are good enough to win it all. So go ahead & jump to conclusions based on this series. Memphis don't make the playoffs next season without Jonas unless Jaren takes a big leap in his game.

While I acknowledge the defensive flaws in Jonas game, he IS matchup dominant. The idea is that he & Jaren share the 5 spot accordingly.... Memphis will find themselves in a playoff situations where Jonas will be the better option at C.

For me it comes down to his extension & Jarne being ready. IMO you don't trade Jonas until Jaren shows he's ready to steal all his minutes, unless of course, you think Ja will be happy with a considerable set back?. If Jaren is ready, the transition should be seamless. He proves himself first, then you look to potentially trade Jonas if that is decided the best course of action.
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Re: Memphis 2021 Offseason Discussion 

Post#37 » by Whole Truth » Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:34 pm

boogiesdad wrote:
K. Anderson
D. Melton

to DEN for

W. Barton
Bol Bol



IMO you're trading out the teams 2 best intangible players in Anderson & Melton for overlapping talent at a deep position.

Is it a prelude to trading either Jonas or Jaren, potentially both ?.
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Re: Memphis 2021 Offseason Discussion 

Post#38 » by MemphisX » Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:01 am

Whole Truth wrote:[b]I see some false information being spread about Jonas not being able to perform in the playoffs. He was 4 for 4 starting in the East with 2 losses coming to the Lebron led Cavs.[/b]


Jonas is horrendous defensively if game planned against. Any team with an able pick and roll combination will ALWAYS be able to generate efficient shots against him. And he is not good enough on offense to make it a worthwhile trade off.
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Re: Memphis 2021 Offseason Discussion 

Post#39 » by VCfor3 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:55 am

MemphisX wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:[b]I see some false information being spread about Jonas not being able to perform in the playoffs. He was 4 for 4 starting in the East with 2 losses coming to the Lebron led Cavs.[/b]


Jonas is horrendous defensively if game planned against. Any team with an able pick and roll combination will ALWAYS be able to generate efficient shots against him. And he is not good enough on offense to make it a worthwhile trade off.

I think that it is a positive trade off (unless the refs take him out of the game). That said, if we want to contend we need a lot of upgrades and center is usually the position that really elevates your defense. An equal overall talent with more of a defensive edge could ultimately fit the team's final form more than Jonas though it depends on who we add to the team.

Also I don't hate lineups with JJJ as a long term PF depending on who is the C. Myles Turner would be interesting to me as a 3&D type center next to JJJ. You can still have large stretches with JJJ at center, but Turner as a defensive anchor who can still provide some spacing would be a good fit. We'd have to make up for Jonas's offense elsewhere in the lineup though and rebounding could be a big problem for us.

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Re: Memphis 2021 Offseason Discussion 

Post#40 » by Whole Truth » Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:38 am

MemphisX wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:[b]I see some false information being spread about Jonas not being able to perform in the playoffs. He was 4 for 4 starting in the East with 2 losses coming to the Lebron led Cavs.[/b]


Jonas is horrendous defensively if game planned against. Any team with an able pick and roll combination will ALWAYS be able to generate efficient shots against him. And he is not good enough on offense to make it a worthwhile trade off.


True teams can & will attack Jonas in the PNR, it is a weakness in his game. Raptors fans said that when Casey reduced his minutes in the first Washington sweep, everyone said he was the problem despite playing under 25 mins a game, fans need a scape goat in losses ... Wall & Gortat were a very good PNR combo especially with refs allowing Gortat to set moving screens as Gobert was allowed to help open Jazz shooters .. A couple years later, Jonas was reason Raptors beat that same Wizards PNR duo (4-2). As I was trying to point out above, It's only the Cavs Jonas/Raptors really struggled with. Cavs being Utah, with no post defense but Love got a favorable whistle with his arm bars & flops. As all Lebron teams get that favor.

Jonas in all his Raptors playoff showings was playing with an equally poor perimeter defender in Derozan. People might not want to admit it but Jenkins also had to hide Ja in the post where he was continually & successfully posted up by a lesser offensive threat, which made Utah even more dangerous. What I'm saying is they were punching more holes into Memphis defense than just Jonas in the PNR considering Memphis lost 3 close games against a top seed, potential champion. I can only imagine what would have been said if they got swept with no close games as was expected by other fans.

For a long time I've been talking about how easy it is to point out the obvious.

Here's another point of view.. how did Memphis manage to win game 1 with Jaren -19 & Tillman -10 ?, Someone had to offset the fact Gobert & Jazz were having their way in the post & second chance opportunity. Jonas was +15 in that game because Brooks was able to contain just Conley, it wasn't just a poor shooting night. With just Conley playing, Ja was also easier to hide off guard. DM's addition gave Utah 2 attack points in the PNR which spread Brooks thin & reduced Morant to being successfully posted by a lesser threat. Reason I've been advocating for adding Brown. I think if Memphis had one more dog to help DIllon pressure the ball, it would have been a different series, considering Memphis played 3 close games with Utah having both Conley & DM.

Clippers with Kawhi, PG, Jackson + have the perimeter defenders plural to help pressure the ball, which has made Cousins, who is also slow footed & bad PNR defender be effective, funny that. Mitchell is the scorer & Conley is the PNR quarter back. Utah has yet to play Conley, so Clippers figured out all they have to do is shut down & double DM. They couldn't do that with Conley in the fold. Series tied 2-2 with Conley out. I'd argue Memphis could have gone up 2-0 in Utah if DM didn't play game 2.

Youngest team since OKC to make the playoffs lost to the top seed, blow it up.

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