3 degrees of frustration Redux - Bde Regt Wins!

[Laimbeer]

Further restriction on the player pool was brought up by Fade. I would like to see something a bit tighter than just the one MVP rule we used last time. Maybe one or two all-NBA/ABA and one or two all-stars as well.

I'd be a little concerned about something like a tight year or division pool with only two or three elite players on a clear top tier. In normal draft games people not getting the elite players can get some of that edge back with higher picks in the second or third round. But with the randomness of this thing, they really can't do that.

[Laimbeer]

Here is last time's rules and draft.

1. You can draft any player from the 1969-70 season to the 2016-17 season, choosing a NBA or ABA season.

2. You have to draft 8 players, maximum amount of 90.0 total FGA. There will be a .85 multiplier for any season before the NBA/ABA merger.

3. Each of your picks must have played for the same franchise in at least one regular season or playoff game as the pick immediately preceding yours.

4. You can use any season of your players from 1969-70 and forward to 2016-17.

5. You may only select one player who has ever won a ABA or NBA MVP award.

6. The randomized draft order and assigned windows are below.

7. Picks must be made within your window. You cannot pick early or late. If your window starts at 10:00, your post must be time stamped at 10:00 to 10:14. A post stamped 9:59 or 10:15 would be invalid. If you miss your window, you cannot make up your pick until the end of the draft. Posts outside of your window will be completely disregarded, even for franchise matching purposes. For the purposes of this game, they do not exist.

8. In the case of a missed window, the following coach will match the franchise of the previous pick. For example, if the coach picking 7th misses his window, the coach picking 8th will simply match a franchise with the 6th pick.

9. Never change a posted pick, even if you become aware it is not a valid pick. You will make up for this pick at the end of the draft. The coach immediately following you must match a franchise with your pick, even though it isn't a legal pick for you. EDIT TO ADD - Players picked illegally are still eligible to be picked later.

10. The draft will begin when I give Dame his player to match with his first pick just before 10am eastern Saturday morning. Likewise Timmay will be given a player to kick off Sunday.

Have fun! Please PM me with questions or post them in the discussion thread.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1j-hloeEctaztq4b1FjtCxrl7vI5pXyqvZTJVsT5x3vQ/edit?usp=sharing

Here are the starting times for your windows. For example, Dame has the first window Saturday morning from 10:00 am to 10:14 am, Dantley from 10:15 to 10:29, etc.

All times are Eastern

Sat, Apr 30

1. damecurry 10:00 - Chris Paul
2. dantley4prez 10:15 - Alonzo Mourning Ineligible pick
3. MadNESS 10:30 - Shaquille O'Neal
4. Hooplah 10:45 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. wackbone 11:00 - Giannis Antetokounmpo
6. Laimbeer 11:15 - Sidney Moncrief
7. Timmaytime 11:30 - Dwight Howard
8. Fadeaway_J 11:45 - Hakeem Olajuwon

1. MadNESS 12:00 - Tracy McGrady
2. wackbone 12:15 - James Harden
3. Hooplah 12:30 - Clyde Drexler
4. Laimbeer 12:45 - Scottie Pippen
5. Fadeaway_J 1:00 - Jimmy Butler
6. damecurry 1:15 - Michael Jordan
7. Timmaytime 1:30 - Dwayne Wade
8. dantley4prez 1:45 - LeBron James

1. wackbone 2:00 - Ben Wallace
2. MadNESS 2:15 - Chauncey Billups
3. dantley4prez 2:30 - Paul Pierce
4. Timmaytime 2:45 - Kevin Garnett
5. Fadeaway_J 3:00 - Jason Kidd
6. Hooplah 3:15 - Walt Frazier
7. damecurry 3:30 - Patrick Ewing
8. Laimbeer 3:45 - Ray Allen

1. damecurry 4:00 - Horace Grant
2. Fadeaway_J 4:15 - Jerry West
3. Hooplah 4:30 - Dennis Rodman
4. Laimbeer 4:45 - Wilt Chamberlain
5. Timmaytime 5:00 - Michael Cooper
6. wackbone 5:15 - Karl Malone
7. dantley4prez 5:30 - John Stockton
8. MadNESS 5:45 - Andrei Kirilenko


Sun, May 1

1. Timmaytime 10:00 - (Clock expired)
2. Hooplah 10:15 - Doug Christie
3. damecurry 10:30 - Eddie Jones
4. Laimbeer 10:45 - Anfernee Hardaway
5. dantley4prez 11:00 - Alonzo Mourning
6. MadNESS 11:15 - Bruce Bowen
7. Fadeaway_J 11:30 - Bobby Jones
8. wackbone 11:45 - Kyle Korver

1. Fadeaway_J 12:00 - Rasheed Wallace
2. MadNESS 12:15 - Al Horford
3. dantley4prez 12:30 - Paul Millsap
4. wackbone 12:45 - Rudy Gobert
5. damecurry 1:00 - Richard Jefferson
6. Hooplah 1:15 - Andre Iguodala
7. Laimbeer 1:30 - Draymond Green
8. Timmaytime 1:45 - Chris Mullin

1. Laimbeer 2:00 - Paul George
2. dantley4prez 2:15 Detlef Schrempf
3. MadNESS 2:30 - George Hill
4. damecurry 2:45 - Boris Diaw
5. Hooplah 3:00 - Kawhi Leonard
6. wackbone 3:15 - Manu Ginobili
7. Timmaytime 3:30 - Terry Porter
8. Fadeaway_J 3:45 - James Posey

1. Laimbeer 4:00 - Bo Outlaw
2. Timmaytime 4:15 - Robert Horry
3. Hooplah 4:30 - Tyson Chandler
4. Fadeaway_J 4:45 - Steve Kerr
5. wackbone 5:00 - Kirk Hinrich
6. dantley4prez 5:15 - Tree Rollins
7. MadNESS 5:30 - (Clock expired)
8. damecurry 5:45 - (Clock expired)

Make up picks
1. dantley4prez 6:00 - Brent Barry
2. Timmaytime 6:15 - George Johnson
3. MadNESS 6:30 - (Declines pick)
4. damecurry 6:45 - (Declines pick)

[Laimbeer]

Is it me or is it Mike, LeBron, and then a gulf to guys who are normally low first or second rounders?

[BdeRegt]

I don't like limiting the draft by how much talent are allowed to accumulate. If someone gets 3 MVPs and someone else gets none, that is poor drafting by the people in the game. I like restrictions to stop everyone from having a team full of MVPs and 1st team all-nba guys. In this manner, I like restricting the overall talent pool not trying to make sure talent is evenly distributed. Distributing the talent should be left to the people drafting not the rules of the game.

[Fadeaway_J]

I don't like limiting the draft by how much talent are allowed to accumulate. If someone gets 3 MVPs and someone else gets none, that is poor drafting by the people in the game. I like restrictions to stop everyone from having a team full of MVPs and 1st team all-nba guys. In this manner, I like restricting the overall talent pool not trying to make sure talent is evenly distributed. Distributing the talent should be left to the people drafting not the rules of the game.

Same here. I was more hoping for the time span to be reduced to 90s and forward.

[Laimbeer]

I don't like limiting the draft by how much talent are allowed to accumulate. If someone gets 3 MVPs and someone else gets none, that is poor drafting by the people in the game. I like restrictions to stop everyone from having a team full of MVPs and 1st team all-nba guys. In this manner, I like restricting the overall talent pool not trying to make sure talent is evenly distributed. Distributing the talent should be left to the people drafting not the rules of the game.

Normally I would agree but with the randomness of this it wouldn't necessarily require bad drafting. Someone could have the opportunity to draft three MVPs while someone else never gets the same opportunity.

[Laimbeer]

I don't like limiting the draft by how much talent are allowed to accumulate. If someone gets 3 MVPs and someone else gets none, that is poor drafting by the people in the game. I like restrictions to stop everyone from having a team full of MVPs and 1st team all-nba guys. In this manner, I like restricting the overall talent pool not trying to make sure talent is evenly distributed. Distributing the talent should be left to the people drafting not the rules of the game.

Same here. I was more hoping for the time span to be reduced to 90s and forward.

I'd be open to this since there would be enough top tier players to go around to 7 or 8 teams.

[BdeRegt]

I don't like limiting the draft by how much talent are allowed to accumulate. If someone gets 3 MVPs and someone else gets none, that is poor drafting by the people in the game. I like restrictions to stop everyone from having a team full of MVPs and 1st team all-nba guys. In this manner, I like restricting the overall talent pool not trying to make sure talent is evenly distributed. Distributing the talent should be left to the people drafting not the rules of the game.

Normally I would agree but with the randomness of this it wouldn't necessarily require bad drafting. Someone could have the opportunity to draft three MVPs while someone else never gets the same opportunity.

That isn't really random though. The opportunity is given by the person selecting before you. It adds another layer of strategy when making a pick. For instance, in the previous version, you took Scottie Pippen in Round 2 then Fade couldn't take MJ after him because he already had Hakeem. I think it makes for more interesting draft if you have to decide if you still want Scottie knowing you are giving Fade MJ and Hakeem which will be very difficult to beat or do you go a different direction. The only random selections are the first ones each day. Every other pick is controlled by who picks before you. I feel like limiting talent per team just punishes better drafters. That is just my opinion. I'll play either way.

[Laimbeer]

I don't like limiting the draft by how much talent are allowed to accumulate. If someone gets 3 MVPs and someone else gets none, that is poor drafting by the people in the game. I like restrictions to stop everyone from having a team full of MVPs and 1st team all-nba guys. In this manner, I like restricting the overall talent pool not trying to make sure talent is evenly distributed. Distributing the talent should be left to the people drafting not the rules of the game.

Normally I would agree but with the randomness of this it wouldn't necessarily require bad drafting. Someone could have the opportunity to draft three MVPs while someone else never gets the same opportunity.

That isn't really random though. The opportunity is given by the person selecting before you. It adds another layer of strategy when making a pick. For instance, in the previous version, you took Scottie Pippen in Round 2 then Fade couldn't take MJ after him because he already had Hakeem. I think it makes for more interesting draft if you have to decide if you still want Scottie knowing you are giving Fade MJ and Hakeem which will be very difficult to beat or do you go a different direction. The only random selections are the first ones each day. Every other pick is controlled by who picks before you. I feel like limiting talent per team just punishes better drafters. That is just my opinion. I'll play either way.

That's a very interesting point. We could end up with few MVPs (none?) if folks are diligent about what they leave to the next guy.

But there's still the possibility whoever drafts first on Day One or Day Two is handed a gift while everyone else diligently blocks the next guy. How might we prevent that? Put restrictions on the first pick each day?

[BdeRegt]

Normally I would agree but with the randomness of this it wouldn't necessarily require bad drafting. Someone could have the opportunity to draft three MVPs while someone else never gets the same opportunity.

That isn't really random though. The opportunity is given by the person selecting before you. It adds another layer of strategy when making a pick. For instance, in the previous version, you took Scottie Pippen in Round 2 then Fade couldn't take MJ after him because he already had Hakeem. I think it makes for more interesting draft if you have to decide if you still want Scottie knowing you are giving Fade MJ and Hakeem which will be very difficult to beat or do you go a different direction. The only random selections are the first ones each day. Every other pick is controlled by who picks before you. I feel like limiting talent per team just punishes better drafters. That is just my opinion. I'll play either way.

That's a very interesting point. We could end up with few MVPs (none?) if folks are diligent about what they leave to the next guy.

But there's still the possibility whoever drafts first on Day One or Day Two is handed a gift while everyone else diligently blocks the next guy. How might we prevent that? Put restrictions on the first pick each day?

I wouldn't worry about 2 picks. I don't think those 2 picks will decide everything.

[Laimbeer]

So as of now, how does this sound?

90 FGA limit

1990 and forward

No accolade restriction, exception or limit

First pick of draft cannot be a all-NBA player

First pick of second day will be based off last pick of first day, but that last pick will not be revealed to person making next pick until just before they make theirs

[Fadeaway_J]

I would take out the restriction on the first pick. Seems to be shifting the bad luck towards the person who picks first.

[8on]

I would take out the restriction on the first pick. Seems to be shifting the bad luck towards the person who picks first.

Last time you generated a random player on which the first pick would be based. I liked that.

[Laimbeer]

I would take out the restriction on the first pick. Seems to be shifting the bad luck towards the person who picks first.

Last time you generated a random player on which the first pick would be based. I liked that.

I did and intend to again. But if we are going no MVP limit, this game will be largely about preventing opponents from getting big gifts. A random player might well hand someone LeBron, etc.

But if there's consensus against restricting that first pick, I won't.

[Fadeaway_J]

I would take out the restriction on the first pick. Seems to be shifting the bad luck towards the person who picks first.

Last time you generated a random player on which the first pick would be based. I liked that.

I did and intend to again. But if we are going no MVP limit, this game will be largely about preventing opponents from getting big gifts. A random player might well hand someone LeBron, etc.

But if there's consensus against restricting that first pick, I won't.

I don't see how you can legislate the randomness out of a game like this. Over one weekend with just eight players and no playoffs involved, I'm not that bothered about it. The title is "3 degrees of frustration" after all.

[euroleague]

I don't like limiting the draft by how much talent are allowed to accumulate. If someone gets 3 MVPs and someone else gets none, that is poor drafting by the people in the game. I like restrictions to stop everyone from having a team full of MVPs and 1st team all-nba guys. In this manner, I like restricting the overall talent pool not trying to make sure talent is evenly distributed. Distributing the talent should be left to the people drafting not the rules of the game.

Normally I would agree but with the randomness of this it wouldn't necessarily require bad drafting. Someone could have the opportunity to draft three MVPs while someone else never gets the same opportunity.

That isn't really random though. The opportunity is given by the person selecting before you. It adds another layer of strategy when making a pick. For instance, in the previous version, you took Scottie Pippen in Round 2 then Fade couldn't take MJ after him because he already had Hakeem. I think it makes for more interesting draft if you have to decide if you still want Scottie knowing you are giving Fade MJ and Hakeem which will be very difficult to beat or do you go a different direction. The only random selections are the first ones each day. Every other pick is controlled by who picks before you. I feel like limiting talent per team just punishes better drafters. That is just my opinion. I'll play either way.

That would be a good argument, but if the choice is hurting yourself vs 7 players or helping 1 other player and yourself vs 6 players, every drafter will pick the one that helps them-self.

Thus, they will always choose Pippen and Fade will always get MJ/Hakeem and he will win.

The interesting part of these drafts is always trying to find the best fit, and winning without the best players a la DET 2004. That isn't as much of an option in this type of limited draft.

[BdeRegt]

Normally I would agree but with the randomness of this it wouldn't necessarily require bad drafting. Someone could have the opportunity to draft three MVPs while someone else never gets the same opportunity.

That isn't really random though. The opportunity is given by the person selecting before you. It adds another layer of strategy when making a pick. For instance, in the previous version, you took Scottie Pippen in Round 2 then Fade couldn't take MJ after him because he already had Hakeem. I think it makes for more interesting draft if you have to decide if you still want Scottie knowing you are giving Fade MJ and Hakeem which will be very difficult to beat or do you go a different direction. The only random selections are the first ones each day. Every other pick is controlled by who picks before you. I feel like limiting talent per team just punishes better drafters. That is just my opinion. I'll play either way.

That would be a good argument, but if the choice is hurting yourself vs 7 players or helping 1 other player and yourself vs 6 players, every drafter will pick the one that helps them-self.

Thus, they will always choose Pippen and Fade will always get MJ/Hakeem and he will win.

The interesting part of these drafts is always trying to find the best fit, and winning without the best players a la DET 2004. That isn't as much of an option in this type of limited draft.

In that scenario, Fade would deserve to win if he can draft MJ/Hakeem and put good fit around them. I don't like punishing drafters by saying you can only have a certain amount of talent. Even DET 2004 had multiple players who made All-NBA teams in their career.

[Laimbeer]

That isn't really random though. The opportunity is given by the person selecting before you. It adds another layer of strategy when making a pick. For instance, in the previous version, you took Scottie Pippen in Round 2 then Fade couldn't take MJ after him because he already had Hakeem. I think it makes for more interesting draft if you have to decide if you still want Scottie knowing you are giving Fade MJ and Hakeem which will be very difficult to beat or do you go a different direction. The only random selections are the first ones each day. Every other pick is controlled by who picks before you. I feel like limiting talent per team just punishes better drafters. That is just my opinion. I'll play either way.

That would be a good argument, but if the choice is hurting yourself vs 7 players or helping 1 other player and yourself vs 6 players, every drafter will pick the one that helps them-self.

Thus, they will always choose Pippen and Fade will always get MJ/Hakeem and he will win.

The interesting part of these drafts is always trying to find the best fit, and winning without the best players a la DET 2004. That isn't as much of an option in this type of limited draft.

In that scenario, Fade would deserve to win if he can draft MJ/Hakeem and put good fit around them. I don't like punishing drafters by saying you can only have a certain amount of talent. Even DET 2004 had multiple players who made All-NBA teams in their career.

But in that case it wouldn't be skill but simply luck. I guess you'd have to do adequate job on the rest of your roster but it's a huge leg up. It just depends how conscious people are of how they're setting someone up versus getting a somewhat better player for themselves.

[Laimbeer]

Any other thoughts before I finalize draft rules and post the draft thread tonight (with draft order)?

Hopefully we can firm up if Blazers or Dario will be our eighth. Ultimately it won't matter a lot since rankings will probably be used.

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[Timmaytime]

Don't like the restriction on the first pick

Other than that sounds good