The League of Nations Draft V2 CHAMPIONSHIP - Snakebites vs. Fadeaway_J **FADEAWAY_J WINS**

[8on]

Because they are better overall players, particularly Manu, thanks to offense?

It isn't that hard bud.

First of all, chill with that bud stuff, especially if you're going to be disrespectful.

Second, he made the All-Defensive team once in his career, and it was 2nd team. I find this claim pretty dubious.

I wasn't being disrespectful, I just thought it's a clear distinction for player A to be better defensively, while player B is better overall and therefore drafted more often. My apologies if you were offended.

Ok, so Deng made one All-Defensive team. How many have Manu and Simmons made? Exactly. Deng was one of the key pieces on a defensive dynasty that finished 1st, 2nd, 6th and 2nd for 4 straight years. In fact, before Noah came into his prime, you can assert that Deng was actually the best defensive player on the team. He made 2 All-Star games without being a particularly great offensive player, on the back of his defense.

He's not Kawhi Leonard but he had a very solid defensive reputation in the first half of this decade and it wasn't unearned. He is at least better than Simmons or Manu.

I would never draft him outside of a highly limited pool but his ability on that end cannot be denied. He was the Bulls' main defender for elite wing stars when he was around.

Couple of things about the 2010-11 Bulls:
1. They were 23rd in pace.
2. They were 2nd in total rebounds.
3. They were 5th in blocked shots.
4. Eight guys on that team had better DBPM than Deng, including Carlos Boozer.
5. Derrick Rose somehow came out with 4.8 DWS.
6. Carlos Boozer somehow came out with 3.9 DWS.

Due to all of those factors, I feel pretty strongly that defensive stats were inflated for that team.

[Fadeaway_J]

How exactly does one "inflate" defensive stats?

[Dr Positivity]

I think Deng is a great defensive player. For example I would rate him as higher impact on defense as Butler has ever been. The reason he doesn't get taken is he costs too much FGA for a midrange shooter on offense

[8on]

How exactly does one "inflate" defensive stats?

Defensive schemes, slowing down the pace, defensive rebounding as opposed to actual man defense.

[Fadeaway_J]

Need at least one more vote.

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[ardee]

First of all, chill with that bud stuff, especially if you're going to be disrespectful.

Second, he made the All-Defensive team once in his career, and it was 2nd team. I find this claim pretty dubious.

I wasn't being disrespectful, I just thought it's a clear distinction for player A to be better defensively, while player B is better overall and therefore drafted more often. My apologies if you were offended.

Ok, so Deng made one All-Defensive team. How many have Manu and Simmons made? Exactly. Deng was one of the key pieces on a defensive dynasty that finished 1st, 2nd, 6th and 2nd for 4 straight years. In fact, before Noah came into his prime, you can assert that Deng was actually the best defensive player on the team. He made 2 All-Star games without being a particularly great offensive player, on the back of his defense.

He's not Kawhi Leonard but he had a very solid defensive reputation in the first half of this decade and it wasn't unearned. He is at least better than Simmons or Manu.

I would never draft him outside of a highly limited pool but his ability on that end cannot be denied. He was the Bulls' main defender for elite wing stars when he was around.

Couple of things about the 2010-11 Bulls:
1. They were 23rd in pace.
2. They were 2nd in total rebounds.
3. They were 5th in blocked shots.
4. Eight guys on that team had better DBPM than Deng, including Carlos Boozer.
5. Derrick Rose somehow came out with 4.8 DWS.
6. Carlos Boozer somehow came out with 3.9 DWS.

Due to all of those factors, I feel pretty strongly that defensive stats were inflated for that team.

How can you inflate defensive stats? Blocks are not like FGAs, you can't take them from other teammates. Their blocks and rebounds numbers were good, because they were a good defensive team. And a low pace will lower your box score numbers if anything, not raise them.

Simple question, if Deng wasn't the best defender on that 2011 Bulls team, who do you think was?

[ardee]

How exactly does one "inflate" defensive stats?

Defensive schemes, slowing down the pace, defensive rebounding as opposed to actual man defense.

But what do you mean by inflate? If your defensive scheme is good and it forces a turnover, that is a good thing for the team and that's what you want to be doing. Slowing down the pace will cause your box score numbers to dip, not rise. You need to get defensive rebounds to finish the play.

I don't get what you're trying to say here. The Bulls were the best defensive team in the league by DRtg and Deng was the best on that end on the team. What is the point you're trying to make?

Funny thing is Deng's traditional box score stats on defense aren't even great. He was getting 1 steal and half a block a game. Nothing was "inflated". He was playing elite man to man defense which doesn't show up in the box score.

[8on]

How exactly does one "inflate" defensive stats?

Defensive schemes, slowing down the pace, defensive rebounding as opposed to actual man defense.

But what do you mean by inflate? If your defensive scheme is good and it forces a turnover, that is a good thing for the team and that's what you want to be doing. Slowing down the pace will cause your box score numbers to dip, not rise. You need to get defensive rebounds to finish the play.

I don't get what you're trying to say here. The Bulls were the best defensive team in the league by DRtg and Deng was the best on that end on the team. What is the point you're trying to make?

Funny thing is Deng's traditional box score stats on defense aren't even great. He was getting 1 steal and half a block a game. Nothing was "inflated". He was playing elite man to man defense which doesn't show up in the box score.

What I mean by inflate is make individual defenders look better than they are. In the case of slower pace, I guess you could say deflate, but I was trying to say that Deng's individual defensive numbers look better than his actual man defense. If the opposing team puts up a low FG% for reasons like great defensive rebounding, slower pace, and great rim protection, those things can make it look like the Bulls are better on defense than they are. Essentially, those things can "count" as man defense if the opposing team misses a shot. Theoretically, a guy taking and missing an open shot can count as man defense. Metrics don't measure how far a defender is from the player they're supposed to be guarding, or defense after a switch, so it's impossible for everything to be exact.

Good teams make individual players look better. Bad teams make individual players look worse. If the team is playing good defense, you could suddenly see Devin Booker with a neutral DBPM one day. Assuming that not all teams score the same number of points per game and per season, not all offensive and defensive stats are created equal. If everyone is letting the other team score, the team gave up more points, which means Devin Booker gave up more points. Even if he tries on defense at some point in the future, he won't get much credit if the team gives up a lot of points. A team like the Jazz, on the other hand, makes everyone look great on defense. For example, I'm not super impressed with Donovan Mitchell's man defense, but the defensive numbers are, especially for a guard.

[8on]

The individual DWS and DBPM numbers can be inflated, in the sense that any other number would be inflated.

Essentially, anything that forces that opposing team to miss a shot counts as defense. The missed shot won't necessarily be attributed to the actual defender. The consistency of a player's defense shows in the consistency of their defensive numbers over the years, and/or any All-Defensive honors. One or two seasons, especially in defensive schemes that make Rose and Boozer look like excellent defenders, make it seem as though coaching, especially by an assistant from the '08 Celtics, had something to do with it.

[euroleague]

Deng defended lebron well. Not sure why he would fail against Simmons with Gobert at the rim

[ardee]

The individual DWS and DBPM numbers can be inflated, in the sense that any other number would be inflated.

Essentially, anything that forces that opposing team to miss a shot counts as defense. The missed shot won't necessarily be attributed to the actual defender. The consistency of a player's defense shows in the consistency of their defensive numbers over the years, and/or any All-Defensive honors. One or two seasons, especially in defensive schemes that make Rose and Boozer look like excellent defenders, make it seem as though coaching, especially by an assistant from the '08 Celtics, had something to do with it.

Ah the old coaching argument.

Even the GOAT coach needs good players to execute a scheme. Sure you can make a few ok defenders look good or bad ones look ok but there need to be at least some good ones out there forming the spine of the defense. If Rose and Boozer were looking good, who do you think was making them look good? Thibs to an extent but also Deng.

Holy mackarel I cannot believe we just went back and forth for ten posts about Luol Deng of all players

Sent from my SM-G615F using RealGM mobile app

[Fadeaway_J]

Come on people.

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[Tony Snell]

Lou is a great defender. I have a ton of faith in his ability to cover Simmons. Horford/Gobert is going going to be hard on Embiid. I think Nash will be exposed defensively, but I dont think Simmons/Mills/Manu are well equipped to slow him down either. I do think snakes' size will create issues for fade, but I dont think it will be enough. Vote: fade

[Snakebites]

GG Fade

[Fadeaway_J]

GG Snake.

Nice to finally get my first win of this year.