The Black Mamba Draft CHAMPIONSHIP - Snakebites vs. ardee**

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The Black Mamba Draft CHAMPIONSHIP - Snakebites vs. ardee** 

Post#1 » by Fadeaway_J » Sat Aug 1, 2020 12:17 am

Here is a quick list of what you need in your writeup.

1. Specific years for each player on your team
2. Rotations and minutes for each player
3. Reasoning as to why your team will win and/or why people should vote for you.

Do not vote in this thread until both managers have submitted their writeups.

If writeups aren't posted within 24 hours, we will vote solely based on the players they have drafted (and any rotations they have posted on their roster page).

**First to 4 votes wins the championship.**
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Re: The Black Mamba Draft CHAMPIONSHIP - Snakebites vs. ardee 

Post#2 » by ardee » Sat Aug 1, 2020 7:01 pm

2013 LeBron James: 17.3 FGA
1998 Reggie Miller: 13.3 FGA
2000 Dikembe Mutombo: 7.0 FGA
2015 Mike Conley: 12.6 FGA
2007 Tayshaun Prince: 12.2 FGA
1997 Kevin Johnson: 12.7 FGA
2010 Mike Miller: 8.0 FGA
2014 Chris Andersen: 3.8 FGA

Total: 86.9/88.0 FGA

Conley (36)/KJ (12)
Reggie (30)/KJ (18)
Prince (30)/Reggie (6)/Miller (12)
LeBron (40)/Prince (6)/Andersen (2)
Deke (40)/Andersen (8)

Offense

Snake has a nice creative and fun team but he has absolutely NO ONE who can even hope to guard LeBron. LeBron regularly turns Pierce into mincemeat whenever they're matched up. Young Ibaka has no chance either. Those are the only two options Snake can even consider. I'm going to assume he'll go with Pierce. LeBron probably has a '16 Finals type of series.

Ibaka is going to be a liability since he's going to have to guard a shooter: either Prince, Reggie or Conley. Assuming he's on Prince, the least threatening of the 3, he's still away from the rim meaning LeBron can get to the basket even easier. Reggie will school Klay and show him how an offball volume sniper two-guard should really operate. Meanwhile, Rose isn't known for his defense and in the minutes KJ is playing he will have serious problems.

I see zero problems scoring as Snake is really lacking in elite defenders.

Defense

Conley on Rose, Miller on Klay, Prince on Pierce, LeBron on Ibaka (who took 7.4 FGA and averaged 9 ppg in 2012, and had no real offensive game to speak of. LeBron actually outweighs him by 20-25 lbs), and Deke on Noah.

Outside of Klay we have an elite defender on each player. When Manu comes in and he goes small, LeBron will shift to Pierce and Prince to Manu.

We will likely win the rebounding battle as Deke + LeBron are just way tougher and more experienced rebounders than a fairly green Ibaka + Noah.

In certain situations we'll let LeBron guard Rose and give him PTSD of how the 2011 ECF went.

Overall

I think talent wise I come out ahead. Deke >> Noah and Prince is >= Ibaka. So my defensive role pieces are ahead. Then it comes down to the perimeter groups of Conley, Miller, KJ and LeBron vs Rose, Klay, Pierce and Manu. No doubt Rose is better than Conley but can you really not see the gap between the other 3?

Defense, talent, experience and fit should win me this.
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Re: The Black Mamba Draft CHAMPIONSHIP - Snakebites vs. ardee 

Post#3 » by Snakebites » Sat Aug 1, 2020 10:00 pm

PG: Derrick Rose 2010-11 19.7 FGA
SG: Klay Thompson 2014-15 16.9 FGA
SF: Paul Pierce 2007-08 13.7 FGA
PF: Serge Ibaka 2011-12 7.4 FGA
C: Joakim Noah 2010-11 8.4 FGA

B: Manu Ginobili 2004-05 10.5 FGA
B: Kyle Korver 2014-15 8.0 FGA
B: Nick Collison 2011-12 3.2 FGA

87.8/88 FGA

I have modified my rotation, see below:

Rose (37)/Ginobili (11)
Klay (36)/Ginobili (12)
Ginobili (9)/Korver (23)/Pierce (16)
Pierce (22)/Ibaka (26)
Noah (32)/Ibaka (8)/Collison (8)

Alrighty, lets do this.

We've obviously adjusted our lineup to combat our opponent's perimeter oriented attack. While we don't have sure fire lockdown defenders, we've got a pretty balanced defense that I think should do just fine. Derrick Noah still anchors the defense effectively and Serge still brings a ton of value off the bench.

Once again, I actually think we have a decent edge in terms of perimeter talent, despite Lebron. Conley and Tay are role players in the chosen years (this isn't 2017 Conley, please note) and KJ is solid but past his prime. I actually think KJ is a bit of a matchup problem here in the minutes he plays at shooting guard because my wings are all big and can shoot effectively right over the older 6-0 KJ- I think trying to use him as a Manu in this matchup is very much a double edged sword.

Meanwhile I think our group of 4 stars more or less speaks for itself. This is basically the 62 Win 2011 Chicago Bulls core (Rose/Noah) with THREE perimeter stars that fit extremely well with Derrick Rose replacing the supporting pieces that team had.

Even with Reggie, we've still got better overall shooting than our opponent. There are certainly far worse options on Lebron than 2008 Paul Pierce, and I think we match up just fine with the rest. I like the longer Klay on Reggie and the rest of the team is a minor threat.

We trade a bit of our bench power for a more stellar offensive starting group here, but we're still going to have an effective group of scorers on the floor at all times.

As for Rose PTSD- Rose won't have nearly the pressure he had on himself in 2011- he was one MVP guy asked to take on two, and the offensive help and spacing he had wasn't that great. Here he'll be able to lean on his teammates more. The Heat were able to get away with that strategy because of the makeup of the rest of the Bulls roster- here they'll be punished for pulling their best wing defender off of one of our guys.

Overall I think we match up well here.

Vote Snake!
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Re: The Black Mamba Draft CHAMPIONSHIP - Snakebites vs. ardee 

Post#4 » by Fadeaway_J » Sun Aug 2, 2020 2:20 am

While LeBron and Reggie is a great duo, Snake's overall offensive group is just more potent. Rose isn't LeBron obviously but he is an elite PG who will thrive with this kind of spacing, and all of Snake's wing stars are at least on the same level as Reggie. Agree that LeBron guarding Rose is a completely different proposition with Pierce, Klay, Manu, and Korver added to the equation.

Vote: Snakebites
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Re: The Black Mamba Draft CHAMPIONSHIP - Snakebites vs. ardee 

Post#5 » by DerrickNoah » Sun Aug 2, 2020 2:51 am

Snake just has too many options on both end.

DN votes = team snake
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Re: The Black Mamba Draft CHAMPIONSHIP - Snakebites vs. ardee 

Post#6 » by Fadeaway_J » Sun Aug 2, 2020 1:04 pm

2-0 Snake

89Hornetsfan90 wrote:.

Goober wrote:.

O_6 wrote:.

Laimbeer wrote:.

MadNESS wrote:.

poopdamoop wrote:.

Blazer50 wrote:.

BarbaGrizz wrote:.

MO12msu wrote:.

Dutchball97 wrote:.

wackbone wrote:.

parsnips33 wrote:.
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Re: The Black Mamba Draft CHAMPIONSHIP - Snakebites vs. ardee 

Post#7 » by ardee » Sun Aug 2, 2020 2:31 pm

Fadeaway_J wrote:While LeBron and Reggie is a great duo, Snake's overall offensive group is just more potent. Rose isn't LeBron obviously but he is an elite PG who will thrive with this kind of spacing, and all of Snake's wing stars are at least on the same level as Reggie. Agree that LeBron guarding Rose is a completely different proposition with Pierce, Klay, Manu, and Korver added to the equation.

Vote: Snakebites


This is very wrong. Miller is the most consistent Playoff wing scorer of the 90s after only Jordan. None of Klay, Manu or Pierce can do the volume + efficiency combo he can. Klay is and always will be a middle class man's Miller.

Also, I specified we're only using LeBron on Rose in specific situations. Most of the time it'll be Conley who is a fine defender himself.
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Re: The Black Mamba Draft CHAMPIONSHIP - Snakebites vs. ardee 

Post#8 » by ardee » Sun Aug 2, 2020 2:32 pm

DerrickNoah wrote:Snake just has too many options on both end.

DN votes = team snake


Both ends? What are his defensive options on LeBron? He just has to use Pierce and pray.
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Re: The Black Mamba Draft CHAMPIONSHIP - Snakebites vs. ardee 

Post#9 » by Fadeaway_J » Sun Aug 2, 2020 2:51 pm

ardee wrote:
Fadeaway_J wrote:While LeBron and Reggie is a great duo, Snake's overall offensive group is just more potent. Rose isn't LeBron obviously but he is an elite PG who will thrive with this kind of spacing, and all of Snake's wing stars are at least on the same level as Reggie. Agree that LeBron guarding Rose is a completely different proposition with Pierce, Klay, Manu, and Korver added to the equation.

Vote: Snakebites


This is very wrong. Miller is the most consistent Playoff wing scorer of the 90s after only Jordan. None of Klay, Manu or Pierce can do the volume + efficiency combo he can. Klay is and always will be a middle class man's Miller.

Also, I specified we're only using LeBron on Rose in specific situations. Most of the time it'll be Conley who is a fine defender himself.

Just narrowing it down to scoring obviously gives Reggie a boost. As all-round players I have Pierce and Manu ahead. Not going to argue on Klay although I think his individual defence takes on more value in this setting. If you want to put Reggie a level above him fine, but the overaching point stands. You've got the best player in the series and a great second option, but I prefer Snake's overall offensive talent.

As for LeBron on Rose, this was your comment:
In certain situations we'll let LeBron guard Rose and give him PTSD of how the 2011 ECF went.

I just don't see that strategy going the same way as the ECF at all, whatever those "certain situations" are. That Bulls team had atrocious spacing and Rose was the only guy who could create off the bounce. At no point is Snake going to roll out a lineup that allows you to key in on Rose to the same extent without being punished.
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Re: The Black Mamba Draft CHAMPIONSHIP - Snakebites vs. ardee 

Post#10 » by Dr Positivity » Sun Aug 2, 2020 3:23 pm

Lebron being by far the best player with good defense and stars like Miller and KJ is enough for me. Vote ardee
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Re: The Black Mamba Draft CHAMPIONSHIP - Snakebites vs. ardee 

Post#11 » by wackbone » Sun Aug 2, 2020 3:38 pm

I agree that Snake has the better defensive group as a whole, but I am weary of young Ibaka+Noah as your main frontcourt. KJ is older here but still had a phenomenal season. Mt Mutombo down low should have a big impact on Rose's drives. However, Rose surrounded by defense and shooting is going to be very effective as well. I slightly prefer Snake's supporting cast, although that could be my recency bias. The talent math and the respective fits are pretty even. So in the end I guesssssss I will go with LeBron to find a way to overcome Rose.

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Re: The Black Mamba Draft CHAMPIONSHIP - Snakebites vs. ardee 

Post#12 » by MO12msu » Sun Aug 2, 2020 4:26 pm

This one is tough. While generally both offenses will be successful, I think ardee has the defensive edge here. Prince and Bron on the wings and Deke manning the middle is a strong front line of resistance, especially against a penetrator like Rose. But I'm a little weary of the KJ/Conley backcourt defensively. The good thing is that Bron and Deke should provide adequate rim protection for those guys.

I'm pretty high on Reggie. Agree with ardee that he's one of the best playoff performers of the 90s and here he is with peak Lebron, basically a perfect fit. I like the rim protection of an Ibaka/Noah frontline against Lebron, but Snake is going small to maximize offense here. So while Snake has good offensive and solid defensive lineups, I think he's giving away too much on the other when he picks one or the other. I like the balance of ardee's lineups more.

Vote for ardee.
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Re: The Black Mamba Draft CHAMPIONSHIP - Snakebites vs. ardee 

Post#13 » by Laimbeer » Sun Aug 2, 2020 4:55 pm

Rose will have more help this time around, but LeBron would make life pretty difficult. Spacing aside, he'd have difficulty scoring even in taking LeBron in isolation. He's got Pierce and maybe others to take over, but it's still a case of your best offensive weapon getting a major ding in crunch time.

I like the depth of scoring in Snakebite's Klay-Manu-Pierce trio but when it comes to captaining the ship LeBron has just enough of an edge over Rose.

I'd add a general comment that it is good to see Rose put to use in these, get respect, and have a good run.

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Re: The Black Mamba Draft CHAMPIONSHIP - Snakebites vs. ardee 

Post#14 » by Fadeaway_J » Sun Aug 2, 2020 5:11 pm

Ardee wins
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Re: The Black Mamba Draft CHAMPIONSHIP - Snakebites vs. ardee 

Post#15 » by Snakebites » Sun Aug 2, 2020 5:26 pm

Laimbeer wrote:I'd add a general comment that it is good to see Rose put to use in these, get respect, and have a good run.


Funnily enough, I've actually won a game with Derrick Rose before- but that team also had Dirk and Grant Hill in it, so it could hardly be called a team built around Rose, which is absolutely how I'd characterize this team.

I figured this one was my Waterloo. The player pool in the second round was really flat, as evidenced by the fact that I actually considered Reggie Miller with one of my first 2 picks. Tough to compete with it when he ends up paired with Lebron.

Which is certainly not a slight to ardee- he did a great job, and lord knows I've won games with an advantageous draft position before. Luck plays a role in every victory in these.

This was an experiment- to see where the possibilities lie if you forgo the BPA in a weak draft position and simply aim for depth and flexibility with 2 cheap star wings who are good shooters and not bad defensively- I wouldn't have been able to pull off a contender with Rose without the wing talent I accumulated in the first 3 picks.

Suffice to say it's an experiment that had a lot more success than I thought it would. When I got skipped in round 1and declined even to take the best players available at my weakened position, I figured I'd have fun building a team but would likely be headed for a round 1 exit.

Definitely one of my favorite teams I've ever made, and probably my favorite not to win.
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Re: The Black Mamba Draft CHAMPIONSHIP - Snakebites vs. ardee 

Post#16 » by Fadeaway_J » Sun Aug 2, 2020 7:17 pm

Snakebites wrote:
Laimbeer wrote:I'd add a general comment that it is good to see Rose put to use in these, get respect, and have a good run.


Funnily enough, I've actually won a game with Derrick Rose before- but that team also had Dirk and Grant Hill in it, so it could hardly be called a team built around Rose, which is absolutely how I'd characterize this team.

I figured this one was my Waterloo. The player pool in the second round was really flat, as evidenced by the fact that I actually considered Reggie Miller with one of my first 2 picks. Tough to compete with it when he ends up paired with Lebron.

Which is certainly not a slight to ardee- he did a great job, and lord knows I've won games with an advantageous draft position before. Luck plays a role in every victory in these.

This was an experiment- to see where the possibilities lie if you forgo the BPA in a weak draft position and simply aim for depth and flexibility with 2 cheap star wings who are good shooters and not bad defensively- I wouldn't have been able to pull off a contender with Rose without the wing talent I accumulated in the first 3 picks.

Suffice to say it's an experiment that had a lot more success than I thought it would. When I got skipped in round 1and declined even to take the best players available at my weakened position, I figured I'd have fun building a team but would likely be headed for a round 1 exit.

Definitely one of my favorite teams I've ever made, and probably my favorite not to win.

I wasn't sure how that strategy was going to work out for you, but getting D-Rose completely changed the equation.
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Re: The Black Mamba Draft CHAMPIONSHIP - Snakebites vs. ardee 

Post#17 » by Snakebites » Sun Aug 2, 2020 7:35 pm

Fadeaway_J wrote:
Snakebites wrote:
Laimbeer wrote:I'd add a general comment that it is good to see Rose put to use in these, get respect, and have a good run.


Funnily enough, I've actually won a game with Derrick Rose before- but that team also had Dirk and Grant Hill in it, so it could hardly be called a team built around Rose, which is absolutely how I'd characterize this team.

I figured this one was my Waterloo. The player pool in the second round was really flat, as evidenced by the fact that I actually considered Reggie Miller with one of my first 2 picks. Tough to compete with it when he ends up paired with Lebron.

Which is certainly not a slight to ardee- he did a great job, and lord knows I've won games with an advantageous draft position before. Luck plays a role in every victory in these.

This was an experiment- to see where the possibilities lie if you forgo the BPA in a weak draft position and simply aim for depth and flexibility with 2 cheap star wings who are good shooters and not bad defensively- I wouldn't have been able to pull off a contender with Rose without the wing talent I accumulated in the first 3 picks.

Suffice to say it's an experiment that had a lot more success than I thought it would. When I got skipped in round 1and declined even to take the best players available at my weakened position, I figured I'd have fun building a team but would likely be headed for a round 1 exit.

Definitely one of my favorite teams I've ever made, and probably my favorite not to win.

I wasn't sure how that strategy was going to work out for you, but getting D-Rose completely changed the equation.

I was fairly confident I’d be able to get him or something similar. Westbrook was considered. As was Damian Lillard- would have gone for a sorta Warrior-esque look there. I even considered Iverson as a possibility before realizing Rose brings what he does but cheaper. He was the name I kept coming back to, and in the end he was the choice.

There’s always a high FGA point guard available if you’ve got the FGA saved- there’re harder to build around so usually not picked early, if they’re picked at all. Rose worked better than those others would have.

If nothing else I think I’ve proven the viability of the strategy- not that it would work in every draft.
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Re: The Black Mamba Draft CHAMPIONSHIP - Snakebites vs. ardee** 

Post#18 » by ardee » Sun Aug 2, 2020 9:24 pm

GG Snakebites.

Nice to finally get another win under my belt. That brings me to 4-12 in Finals haha.
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Re: The Black Mamba Draft CHAMPIONSHIP - Snakebites vs. ardee** 

Post#19 » by wackbone » Sun Aug 2, 2020 10:01 pm

No one mentioned this, but Snakebites, look at your writeup and who you said is anchoring your defense.
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Re: The Black Mamba Draft CHAMPIONSHIP - Snakebites vs. ardee** 

Post#20 » by Snakebites » Sun Aug 2, 2020 10:15 pm

wackbone wrote:No one mentioned this, but Snakebites, look at your writeup and who you said is anchoring your defense.

Ive almost made that mistake half a dozen times in the game. Had to happen sometime.

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