TT '09 - DEAD Thread

[CellarDoor]

I directly copied Euchus' three posts and replaced my own explanations and numbers. Anyone he missed I did as well, so let me know if that happened!

[ecuhus1981]

I don't see Law as a 'more proven' commodity as Diener

He's not, but that's not why I like the other deal better. IMO, the Magic could really use a backup PG who is big enough to moonlight at SG, defends well, is responsible with the ball, can dribble-drive and hit the open 3. That description better suits Acie.

If you can give 0-10 points for effectiveness that's a huge margin between good and bad, you shouldn't need to use another 10 points' worth of another criterion when that other criterion is for judging a totally different view of the trade.

I have read through this paragraph a dozen times, and I cannot make heads or tails of it.

Just a note, you quote me for both the Korver and Butler to LAC deals. The Butler deal isn't mine, it was posted by someone else.

Thanks, duly noted and changed. Darn 3-letter usernames!

[ecuhus1981]

I directly copied Euchus' three posts and replaced my own explanations and numbers. Anyone he missed I did as well, so let me know if that happened!

Excellent work, CD.

[Trader_Joe]

J.Alexander, W.Sharpe*, 2011 #2 for TPE

Let's just use players who could be traded TODAY.

I know it was just a footnote in a very large thread, but Walter's involvement in this deal puts it on the edge for me. I don't think it's fair to disqualify you, as Sharpe's removal would only diminish the effectiveness for MIL, not totally destroy the foundation of the deal. I do need to dock points in the feasibility category, though. I will say that Joe would be a nice low-risk pickup at this cost.
ORIGINALITY - 6
FEASIBILITY - 1
EFFECTIVENESS - 4

.

I only referenced the rules on page 5:

PRELIMINARY ROUND: Trade a TPE

OK, I thought that the best way to test participants' trading aptitude (and thereby, determine seedings) was to judge everyone on their ability to make a proposal involving a traded player exception (TPE). As you know, there are not very many teams with a large TPE, and with the current economical climate, the value of these commodities has risen.

Here is a list of the teams with large TPEs:

Denver Nuggets - $9.7mil TPE, $2.1mil TPE
LA Clippers - $7.3mil TPE
Orlando Magic - $6.8mil TPE
Miami Heat - $4.2mil TPE
New Jersey Nets - $3.7mil TPE
LA Lakers - $2.5mil TPE
Milwaukee Bucks - $2.1mil TPE
Phoenix Suns - $2mil TPE

(These are NOT the only TPEs you may use, just the largest ones. Any TPE is allowed. ESPN's Trade Machine is a great reference tool, if you are looking for a smaller TPE.)

Feel free to go as conservative or as risky as you like, but I cannot stress this enough: MAKE SURE THAT YOUR TRADE WORKS! That means that, for example, you cannot trade a TPE for a player whose contract is greater than the size of the TPE. The 125% rule does NOT apply. Also, you cannot combine a player with a TPE from the same team in a single trade. E.G., the Clippers could not trade Ricky Davis AND their TPE for Corey Maggette.

Consider the needs of every team involved in your trade. Would the team giving the TPE seek expirings and youth in return, or a quality veteran on a long-term contract? Does the team accepting the TPE really need to shed salary badly enough to warrant this transaction? Have fun with it, and again, feel free to ask a judge for guidance if you're not sure whether your idea will work.

DEADLINE: SUNDAY, 8/9/09 AT MIDNIGHT ET

In which that rule is not listed among the main set of criteria. Nor did I realize I had to dig through 8 pages or posts looking for minor clauses.

Just out of curiosity could tell me why it was not listed in the main set of rules, and had that rule not been stated elsewhere, could you judge my trade if it were legal?

Also even the title even mentions the 1st scenario is on page 5.
And amendments to the rules IMO should have been posted directly in that post.

[CellarDoor]

In light of Joe's comments and an extreme desire not to be dragged into an argument for a trade I didn't like anyways, I'm going to amend my scores:

7, 5, 2 respectively instead.

[ecuhus1981]

What happened since the last time I ran one of these trade tournaments? Did someone put sawdust in everyone's corn flakes? The entire mood seems more vindictive and reactionary...

T_J, I could have done a better job of migrating clarifications to the rules to the post where they are originally located. I will redouble my effort in that regard, starting with this post. The last time I ran this, I don't recall so many questions.

In any case, I hope we don't have to make Hammurabi's Code of Trading. Just stick to the basics; if TradeChecker and/or ESPN Trade Machine won't allow it TODAY, don't use it! I will say though that Walter can be re-traded IF he is the only player in the outgoing section, and since your deal would technically be two trades, it actually should have been listed as OK. A separate feasibility problem though, which I meant to mention in my eval, is that MIA has 14 players on their roster right now. They can't add two without cutting at least one.

ECUHUS1981's amended grade for Trader_Joe: 6-3-4

I sincerely hope the other participants understand that the judges are not trying to tilt the scales in Trader-Joe's favor. I should have caught this wrinkle last night, and didn't, but I don't want to open a Pandora's box of re-grading.

[CellarDoor]

^^That was the only rule clarification, so I won't be readjusting anything at this point.

[dockingsched]

you gotta start changing the title ecuhus1981, i had no idea judging already started.

[Trader_Joe]

Thanks guys, I appreciate that.
In the future I'll be sure to pay better attention too. I was kind of rushing to get the post in by midnight since I was away all weekend.

Also, CD, I noticed your original comments based upon my error, but I'm just curious as to why you don't like the trade.

I think it benefits both sides (esp. Milwuakee), but Miami is also getting a low risk/medium reward 3 with potential and a 2nd round pick..

Euch, also, I indictaed Sharpe would be waived also, I know he couldn't fit on the roster, as he probably does not belong on any roster in the league.

[ws26]

Tell people to stop arguing about scoring, that will help to keep the board clean and the tempers cool. Don't let everyone freak out when they don't get scored the best. If you want to explain your trade, do it in the original post.

[sammydavis]

Travis Diener (1.74M) to ORL for 1.74M of Turkoglu TPE and a heavily protected future 2nd round pick.

Unless i'm missing something, who becomes Indy's back-up point after this? Jack signed with Toronto.
ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 5
EFFECTIVENESS - 3

Now Indy can get that sweetener from Boston in the Daniels S&T whatever it is. EDIT: And since they got Earl Watson this offseason they don't need Diener anyway.

[Finger Roll]

Your deal was not ONE deal, it was two separate transactions that would not be allowed under the CBA if you tried to "combine" them. As I have stated several times in this thread, a TPE cannot be combined with another player. You cannot send out Farmar and AMMO in the same transaction in which you send out the TPE. IT CANNOT HAPPEN. Understand?

Yes, I understand. But then what's with this?

First of all, thanks for kicking this off with a trade that works! This is really two transactions; it's not "combined into one" at all, even if TradeChecker gives it one Trade ID#.

You had no problem grading legacyinthemakin89c's trade as a whole (even though it was really two deals), so why didn't you do the same for mine?

Also...

since your deal would technically be two trades, it actually should have been listed as OK.

[sammydavis]

I don't see Law as a 'more proven' commodity as Diener

He's not, but that's not why I like the other deal better. IMO, the Magic could really use a backup PG who is big enough to moonlight at SG, defends well, is responsible with the ball, can dribble-drive and hit the open 3. That description better suits Acie.

Fair enough, no problem.

If you can give 0-10 points for effectiveness that's a huge margin between good and bad, you shouldn't need to use another 10 points' worth of another criterion when that other criterion is for judging a totally different view of the trade.

I have read through this paragraph a dozen times, and I cannot make heads or tails of it.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. What I meant is the effectiveness score should be enough to reflect the effectiveness, there's no need for the feasibility score to follow the effectiveness score as well. A trade either works under the CBA or not. IMO.

Just my 2 cents.

[ecuhus1981]

you gotta start changing the title ecuhus1981, i had no idea judging already started.

Got it. Sorry, SORRY, SORRY!!!! (BTW, that's not directed at you, dc, just at this whole process.)

...

Bear in mind that I didn't actually deduct points from you or anyone with a "dual" trade. I may have worded things differently, but no one was graded less or more because they had extraneous stuff going on in this proposals. I just had to narrow the focus of my attention to the transaction that actually fit the criteria of the assignment.

...

OK, I'm picking up what you're putting down now. Eh, I see effectiveness as the real-world application of the trade, whereas feasibility is more the logical and mechanical parts of the deal. There is some overlap, sure, but I do believe they each merit 1/3 of the weight of your entire score. If you'll notice, certain trades that teams would NOT do for feasibility concerns can still score decently with me in effectiveness, and vice versa.

[dockingsched]

PRELIMINARY ROUND EVALUATIONS

how i'm going to judge:

originality: 7 if its something new, 5 if its been seen. sometimes the trade that we've all seen is the one that makes the most sense, i don't want to punish people that go that route.

feasiblity: 10 if it works, 5 if it works but its not realistic either cause of number of teams/players or some other circumstance, 0 if it doesn't work. that simple

effectiveness: this is where i'll be changing up a bit, so if i'm inconsistent, its not on purpose.

Denver Nuggets Trade: Allen Iverson TPE for 5.2 million, Chucky Atkins TPE for 1.7 million
Denver Nuggets Receive: Kyle Korver, Francisco Elson

haven't seen this, works just fine with the cba, denver would never take on that salary in their current financial situation.

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 10
EFFECTIVENESS - 1

LA Lakers Outgoing: $2.22 mil TPE from Chris Mihm
Incoming: Acie Law

haven't seen it before, works just fine, lakers would never take on a 4th pg at the cost of 4.5 mil.

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 10
EFFECTIVENESS - 1

MIA gets: Brandan Wright
MIA trades: 2.7 mil TPE, MIA 2010 1st rounder, Cash

haven't seen it before, works just fine, why does miami want wright with beasley on the team?
ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 10
EFFECTIVENESS - 1

New Orleans out / New Jersey in: Julian Wright $2.00M
New Jersey out / New Orleans in: $2.00M TPE, using a part of NJ's larger TE, 2010 NJ 2nd round pick

haven't seen it, works just fine, so so for either team

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 10
EFFECTIVENESS - 5

New York trades: $1.1M TE, protected 2010 2nd round pick
New York receives: Devin Brown

haven't seen it, works fine, i'd think just taking brown's small salary would be enough
ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 10
EFFECTIVENESS - 4

Denver trades Renaldo Balkman (1 year/$2.1 million) for Phoenix TPE $2 million.

DISQUALIFIED

[dockingsched]

Travis Diener (1.74M) to ORL for 1.74M of Turkoglu TPE and a heavily protected future 2nd round pick.

i think i'm going to give everyone a 7 for ORIG, works just fine, diener isn't dump material
ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 10
EFFECTIVENESS - 3

Denver Sends: Most of the $2.1 Million TPE
Denver Receives: Jarvis Hayes

coulda got rid of him earlier

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 10
EFFECTIVENESS - 1

LAC Sends: 5.2 Million TPE, heavily protected future 2nd Rounder
LAC Gets: Kyle Korver

heavily protected 2nd? go look at their 2nd rnd pick situation and decide whether it was worth including that.

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 5
EFFECTIVENESS 6

Clippers trade: 3.945 Trade Exception
for: 1) Rasual Butler

not as good a fit as korver

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 10
EFFECTIVENESS - 3

LA Clippers Trade: 7.5 TPE
Sacramento Kings Trade: Andres Nocioni

noc fits a good role, clips have shown a willingness to add some annual salary, probably not this much though.

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 10
EFFECTIVENESS - 6

To acquire Elson, the Lakers must use a TPE.

lakers aren't taking on salary like this

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 10
EFFECTIVENESS - 1

Sacramento gets: $6 million TPE
Orlando gets: Beno Udrih

u don't pay a backup to an all-star that much money

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 10
EFFECTIVENESS - 1

[dockingsched]

Miami sends: TPE, 2nd round pick
Milwaukee sends: Kurt Thomas

milwaukee cuts salary, miami adds some veteran help, looks good.

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 10
EFFECTIVENESS - 7

Golden State trades: PG: Acie Law
Orlando trades: 2.2 million TPE

looks good

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 10
EFFECTIVENESS - 6

Clippers Receive: Charlie Bell, J. Alexander
Bucks Receive: TPE, 2nd

are the bucks prepared to dump JA like that? the clips haven't shown any interest in bell.

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 10
EFFECTIVENESS - 5

J.Alexander, W.Sharpe*, 2011 #2 for TPE

disqualified

[Trader_Joe]

J.Alexander, W.Sharpe*, 2011 #2 for TPE

disqualified

Please see Euches and CD's responses.
They scored my trade and technically the trade can work as 2 seperate trades.

[deviljets7]

Before anyone asks....
Originality: self explanatory
Feasibility: the likelihood of both teams accepting the deal.
Effectiveness: does the trade do a good job of filling needs/priorities.

Miami sends: TPE, 2nd round pick
Milwaukee sends: Kurt Thomas

The Bucks still seem to be in salary dump mode (still have to sign Sessions). Thomas may not have the ideal size Miami is looking for, but provides toughness and a strong veteran presence.

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 10
EFFECTIVENESS - 8

Golden State trades: PG: Acie Law
Orlando trades: 2.2 million TPE

Law has some potential, but is he really going to help the Magic? I have to wonder if they can sign a veteran more likely to help them now at a cheaper salary.

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 8
EFFECTIVENESS - 5

Clippers Receive: Charlie Bell, J. Alexander
Bucks Receive: TPE, 2nd

Would the Bucks really pull the plug on Alexander this early? Bell's contract is dicey, but it's not this bad IMO.

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 6
EFFECTIVENESS - 6

J.Alexander, W.Sharpe*, 2011 #2 for TPE

Including a draft pick and a youngster just to get rid of Alexander? Plus as previously stated, this isn't a trade that can be done now.

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 0
EFFECTIVENESS - 1

Travis Diener (1.74M) to ORL for 1.74M of Turkoglu TPE and a heavily protected future 2nd round pick.

Really the perfect scenario for Orlando. I know Indy isn't in a great financial position, but can they afford to move Diener?

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 5
EFFECTIVENESS - 10

Denver Sends: Most of the $2.1 Million TPE
Denver Receives: Jarvis Hayes

I think some Net fans overrate Hayes a tad and they do have a lot of bodies at the wings. But as others have said, if NJ didn't want him they could have just declined his option in June.

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 4
EFFECTIVENESS - 10

LAC Sends: 5.2 Million TPE, heavily protected future 2nd Rounder
LAC Gets: Kyle Korver

This trade makes a lot of sense for both sides. Unfortunately I have to deduct a little bit since it was on the forum less than a week ago.

ORIGINALITY - 5
FEASIBILITY - 8
EFFECTIVENESS - 9

Clippers trade: 3.945 Trade Exception
for: 1) Rasual Butler

Butler isn't as good as Korver, but considering we are talking about the Donald here, the fact that he's a cheaper alternative to Korver makes this viable IMO.

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 8
EFFECTIVENESS - 6

LA Clippers Trade: 7.5 TPE
Sacramento Kings Trade: Andres Nocioni

Nocioni would give the Clips some much needed help at the 3 spot and would bring some much-needed toughness. However, that's a long contract and if LA holds tight, they can have around $10 million in cap space in 2010.

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 2
EFFECTIVENESS - 8

To acquire Elson, the Lakers must use a TPE.

The Lakers take on a lot of salary for little purpose it seems.

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 3
EFFECTIVENESS - 5

Sacramento gets: $6 million TPE
Orlando gets: Beno Udrih

Not a chance Orlando (or any team) would take Beno's contract. He is also also a questionable fit in a SVG system.

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 0
EFFECTIVENESS - 5

Denver Nuggets Trade: Allen Iverson TPE for 5.2 million, Chucky Atkins TPE for 1.7 million
Denver Nuggets Receive: Kyle Korver, Francisco Elson

A double-entry here. I don't know if Denver can take on quite this much salary, but Korver would be a big addition, especially in light of Kleiza's defection.

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 6
EFFECTIVENESS - 9

New Orleans out / New Jersey in: Julian Wright $2.00M
New Jersey out / New Orleans in: $2.00M TPE, using a part of NJ's larger TE, 2010 NJ 2nd round pick

Interesting deal and the value is probably pretty fair on this one, but I don't think either team pulls the trigger on this one.

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 5
EFFECTIVENESS - 8

New York trades: $1.1M TE, protected 2010 2nd round pick
New York receives: Devin Brown

The Knicks might be a bit thin at PG, but with NOH's desire to trim payroll and Daniels/Collison as backups, there's no reason for the Knicks to deal a pick here.

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 3
EFFECTIVENESS - 7

Denver trades Renaldo Balkman (1 year/$2.1 million) for Phoenix TPE $2 million.

According to Larry Coon's FAQ (rule 69), you can trade a TPE for a player making up to $100K more than the the TPE. So this trade does work and has been unfairly DQ'd.

Balkman would be a good fit on a fast-paced team like PHX. Can the Suns pay him though and can Denver afford to lose him with Kleiza gone?

ORIGINALITY - 7
FEASIBILITY - 5
EFFECTIVENESS - 7

[ecuhus1981]

According to Larry Coon's FAQ (rule 69), you can trade a TPE for a player making up to $100K more than the the TPE. So this trade does work and has been unfairly DQ'd.

I'll admit up front, I did not know this little bylaw. Thank you for elucidating it.

However, in bigjabroni's case, Renaldo Balkman makes $2,112,417 this season, leaving PHX's TPE ever so slightly out of reach. Sorry, bj, I have to stand by my DQ.