Tournament of Champions 2020 (Post-Merger) - Discussion Thread

[JimmyPlopper]

Depends on the context to the situation. Can you give more details?

If 2016 was available for Draymond for instance: are we assuming he hits threes actually at that rate?

Draymond attempted 258 3's in the regular season and 104 in the post-season. He was streaky with 10/23 post-season games hitting 0 3's (0/29 in those 10 games from deep).

I assume over the course of a series he will hit 3's at that clip.

So when we choose a season, it's not just regular season stats that are considered, but also post-season? For instance those who are prone to choking in high pressure situations? McGrady never advancing in playoffs as the lead player, despite being very clutch in the regular season. Etc.

Also when you say "at that clip" which clip do you mean? The clip he has demonstrated over the course of his career, in a greater variety of scenarios, that he is likely to contribute? Or the single year contribution, even if at odds with career?

[goober]

I just don’t know if there is a team that really jumps out.

[Jordan Syndrome]

If 2016 was available for Draymond for instance: are we assuming he hits threes actually at that rate?

Draymond attempted 258 3's in the regular season and 104 in the post-season. He was streaky with 10/23 post-season games hitting 0 3's (0/29 in those 10 games from deep).

I assume over the course of a series he will hit 3's at that clip.

So when we choose a season, it's not just regular season stats that are considered, but also post-season?

I primarily focus on what the player was capable of and what he accomplished and use both of those variables in assessing a team.

For instance those who are prone to choking in high pressure situations? McGrady never advancing in playoffs as the lead player, despite being very clutch in the regular season. Etc.

McGrady not advancing wasn't a product of him being un-clutch or bad. However, it takes a certain team built around McGrady's 2003 season to optimize his output.

Also when you say "at that clip" which clip do you mean? The clip he has demonstrated over the course of his career, in a greater variety of scenarios, that he is likely to contribute? Or the single year contribution, even if at odds with career?

I see no reason to assume 2016 Draymond wouldn't be a streaky shooter just as he was in 2016.

[JimmyPlopper]

Draymond attempted 258 3's in the regular season and 104 in the post-season. He was streaky with 10/23 post-season games hitting 0 3's (0/29 in those 10 games from deep).

I assume over the course of a series he will hit 3's at that clip.

So when we choose a season, it's not just regular season stats that are considered, but also post-season?

I primarily focus on what the player was capable of and what he accomplished and use both of those variables in assessing a team.

For instance those who are prone to choking in high pressure situations? McGrady never advancing in playoffs as the lead player, despite being very clutch in the regular season. Etc.

McGrady not advancing wasn't a product of him being un-clutch or bad. However, it takes a certain team built around McGrady's 2003 season to optimize his output.

Also when you say "at that clip" which clip do you mean? The clip he has demonstrated over the course of his career, in a greater variety of scenarios, that he is likely to contribute? Or the single year contribution, even if at odds with career?

I see no reason to assume 2016 Draymond wouldn't be a streaky shooter just as he was in 2016.

1) Interesting - I was under the impression that we were to ignore the post-season and focus only on the regular season. So a player being a Finals MVP is actually a pretty big deal in that case.
2) McGrady not advancing I supposed we will have to agree to disagree. Of course injuries were also a factor by the time he got to Houston where I felt he fit well with Yao.
3) Being streaky isn't binary though, so the question I'm asking isn't whether or not we would consider him to be streaky, but rather, would we expect those streaks to result in an aggregate level of 39% or 29% is the question.

[Jordan Syndrome]

1) Interesting - I was under the impression that we were to ignore the post-season and focus only on the regular season. So a player being a Finals MVP is actually a pretty big deal in that case.

If a player is exposed in the post-season like Russell Westbrook routinely has then I penalize him for that. Its clear when defenses game plan for him and focus their attention on him (notably because of his lack of jump shot) he regresses. To me this comes down to skill-set of a player and where write-ups/match-ups are crucial.

2) McGrady not advancing I supposed we will have to agree to disagree. Of course injuries were also a factor by the time he got to Houston where I felt he fit well with Yao.

I'm not a big Tracy McGrady fan but I'm not sure what you are holding against him? I don't find it productive to look at McGrady's failures when a 34-year old Darrell Armstrong is his 2nd option. I find it more productive to look at McGrady's skill-set and see who he would hypothetically fit with.

3) Being streaky isn't binary though, so the question I'm asking isn't whether or not we would consider him to be streaky, but rather, would we expect those streaks to result in an aggregate level of 39% or 29% is the question.

I would say Draymond has the ability to spread the floor and factor that in accordingly. I don't sit here with a calculator and input TSA and TS% for each team.

[Zion Wembanyama]

Go time

[JimmyPlopper]

1) Interesting - I was under the impression that we were to ignore the post-season and focus only on the regular season. So a player being a Finals MVP is actually a pretty big deal in that case.

If a player is exposed in the post-season like Russell Westbrook routinely has then I penalize him for that. Its clear when defenses game plan for him and focus their attention on him (notably because of his lack of jump shot) he regresses. To me this comes down to skill-set of a player and where write-ups/match-ups are crucial.

2) McGrady not advancing I supposed we will have to agree to disagree. Of course injuries were also a factor by the time he got to Houston where I felt he fit well with Yao.

I'm not a big Tracy McGrady fan but I'm not sure what you are holding against him? I don't find it productive to look at McGrady's failures when a 34-year old Darrell Armstrong is his 2nd option. I find it more productive to look at McGrady's skill-set and see who he would hypothetically fit with.

3) Being streaky isn't binary though, so the question I'm asking isn't whether or not we would consider him to be streaky, but rather, would we expect those streaks to result in an aggregate level of 39% or 29% is the question.

I would say Draymond has the ability to spread the floor and factor that in accordingly. I don't sit here with a calculator and input TSA and TS% for each team.

1) Cool I just didn't know if the scope of these competitions was intended to include post-season, but it's good to know.
2) I think McGrady had plenty of chances with the Rockets and Yao and underwhelmed. The Magic didn't put a whole lot around him, but one round isn't much to ask for. I hold it against him because as I watched those series closely, it felt like he wasn't playing up to his normal status. I downgrade players who don't play up to the moment personally.
3) We don't need to sit with a calculator (I use excel personally) but we should be able to appreciate the degrees of magnitude instead of treating like a tick box exercise in my opinion. Player characteristics are very rarely binary from what i can see.

[Jordan Syndrome]

3) We don't need to sit with a calculator (I use excel personally) but we should be able to appreciate the degrees of magnitude instead of treating like a tick box exercise in my opinion. Player characteristics are very rarely binary from what i can see.

At the end of the day my goal is to encompass what both teams strengths and weaknesses are and attempt to look for exploitable weaknesses in the match-ups. I factor in each players fit and take a few minutes envisioning how each player will play in the match-up. I know some people here like MJ (not trying to call him out but its clear what he values in these--best player/talent) nearly always pick the team with the better player but I try to avoid that approach as much as possible. I try to put as much time into my votes as each of us put into assembling the teams. None of us are perfect and while I try to be as transparent as possible when voting for teams I do have certain biases which will play a part in this.

[MadNESS]

Emailed and PM’d Blazer50

[JimmyPlopper]

3) We don't need to sit with a calculator (I use excel personally) but we should be able to appreciate the degrees of magnitude instead of treating like a tick box exercise in my opinion. Player characteristics are very rarely binary from what i can see.

At the end of the day my goal is to encompass what both teams strengths and weaknesses are and attempt to look for exploitable weaknesses in the match-ups. I factor in each players fit and take a few minutes envisioning how each player will play in the match-up. I know some people here like MJ nearly always pick the team with the better player but I try to avoid that approach as much as possible. I try to put as much time into my votes as each of us put into assembling the teams. None of us are perfect and while I try to be as transparent as possible when voting for teams I do have certain biases which will play a part in this.

For sure - and I wasn't trying to change your view points, only to understand them.

I guess the root of this question was: in the event of a Draymond season which is higher in PCT than others, do you award any points for choosing a 38% season vs a 29%? Is it as simple as, well, he's streaky and maybe it's somewhere in between there? I am just curious because if we aren't all interpreting the rules the same way, that would be a bit of a shame IMO. It's good to have a different opinion of how to build a team, but if the opinion of the rules is not consistent, that makes it pretty much a popularity contest instead of being basketball related.

[Jordan Syndrome]

Emailed and PM’d Blazer50

Will you be awake to draft in Round 5?

[MadNESS]

Emailed and PM’d Blazer50

Will you be awake to draft in Round 5?

Yeah if he picks soon I’m here

[LA Bird]

I will be up all night if anyone wants to PM me their list.

[Jordan Syndrome]

For sure - and I wasn't trying to change your view points, only to understand them.

I know, and just to be clear I figured as much--not all of us view players in the same light.

I guess the root of this question was: in the event of a Draymond season which is higher in PCT than others, do you award any points for choosing a 38% season vs a 29%? Is it as simple as, well, he's streaky and maybe it's somewhere in between there? I am just curious because if we aren't all interpreting the rules the same way, that would be a bit of a shame IMO. It's good to have a different opinion of how to build a team, but if the opinion of the rules is not consistent, that makes it pretty much a popularity contest instead of being basketball related.

Draymond is difficult but I do for the simple reason of "I remember watching him and in 2016 expected his shot to go in" and every other season of his career I have not expected his shot to go in.

In a similar vein, I am curious why 2013 LeBron is always chosen here. It is fairly obvious to me he is a much more resilient scorer later in his career (notably 2014, 2016/2017/2018/2020) as he has added wrinkles and facets to his game to make him truly unguardable in the post-season. I understand the intrigue of 2013 with the Lower-FGA but he is a player who has fascinated me in these games with the year chosen--but I guess it is a heavy emphasis on regular season as you have alluded to in your post.

[Zion Wembanyama]

Bosh was already selected.

[Jordan Syndrome]

Bosh was already selected.

Are you staying up watching XFL highlights of P.J. Sky-Walker?

[Zion Wembanyama]

Bosh was already selected.

Are you staying up watching XFL highlights of P.J. Sky-Walker?

Naw.

[Dr Positivity]

Yikes, I probably should have taken a center already

[MadNESS]

Emailed and PM’d Blazer50

Will you be awake to draft in Round 5?

Up

[Jon_3232]

Ben Wallace at 9.2 fga s kinda tough to swallow lol.