82-89 Keeper League Playoffs (START JUDGING pg. 6)

[CellarDoor]

Since Miller wants to use random years for players that aren't their selected years for stats...here's Hakeems in 89 against Parish.

31.0, 14.0, 2.0, 2.0, 4.5. Taking your scope of Hakeem's early career isn't too indicative of 89 Hakeem. Some of Hakeem's personal bests in 89 (not counting years after):
Most points
Most blocks
Most steals
Most rebounds
Most Free throws
Highest DRB and TRB%
Highest block, steal%
Lowest DRTG
Most DWS
Most WS
Highest WS/48

This seems to be where there's the biggest disagreement, so I want to hammer this home. You're assuming Parish can step up and play more minutes against an elite C and a better defensive C than he was facing in his selected year (Kareem, Moses, 32 y.o. Gilmore) with a less balanced scoring team around him (bird only took 18 FG a game in Parish' selected season and McHale was 23). On a team where Jordan's going to be the first, second, and third option and you're being guarded by Hakeem, Nance and Rollins, a guy who's numbers went down in the playoffs more often than up aren't going to see improvements.

[Miller4ever]

To that I'd say there's a huge difference between 35-year-old Parish and 27-year-old Parish. There's an athletic difference which is why I tried to use a larger sample size to show the more overall tendencies of these two players to make it easier to imagine how a prime Parish would match up against prime Hakeem. He can keep up way better than '89 Parish, that's for sure.

There's also the argument that '81 Parish has a ring and '89 Hakeem does not. In fact, he bows out despite having Sleepy Floyd on his team. Maybe the absence of a certain ballhandling forward has something to do with it? Totally kidding on the last point.

As for shot distribution, I've already addressed it. I've shown that my team has a balanced offense without adjusting the shots taken by more than 1 for every player compared to what they actually did, unlike the massive scoring attempts you keep trying to heap upon Jordan. You know that Gervin attempted more shots than Jordan in the selected seasons? The more unbalanced offense is the one with Nate McMillan on the floor at all. He is by far the worst offensive player in this matchup and he's on the floor for almost a half of the game. You've got Gervin taking as many shots as Jordan and he's less efficient, two first options and a couple of nothing options taking time away valuable time. Rollins is on the floor 16 minutes, and he is a terrible shooter for a center of his size. Mo Lucas posted a .547 TS% which is below that of all my post players and all of my wings.

[MJallday59]

Mark Price
Danny Ainge
Detleff Schrempf
Charles Barkley
Charles Oakley

Key Reserves:
Ricky Pierce
Manute Bol


Game Plan vs Sambone: Barkley is so dominant that he could prob beat both teams 1 on 5.

[CellarDoor]

(lol at the McCray oversell)
Shot attempts adjusted to their minutes played on my team:

Gervin - 25.3
Hakeem - 18.8
Johnson - 12.8
Nance - 10.2
Pressey - 10
Lucas - 7.5
Floyd - 9.4
Rollins - 3.7
McMillan - 4.4
In other words, 102.7 shots per game. Considering both of us want our teams out of the break. The league average in 1985 (random year in the middle of the era) is 102.1 I think we'll be okay.

Jordan - 24.3
Parish - 18.3
McCray - 9.0
Lever - 16.0
Williams - 9.2
Thorpe - 10.7
Nixon - 5.04
Dantley -3.3
Banks - 3.4

(94.2)

Looking at the two teams, I'm okay with Gervin Hakeem and Johnson taking the most shots against Parish Jordan and Lever (16? I didn't realize he took that many in his prime). Especially in the POs where Parish general scores less less efficiently. Further, how do you envision your offense working when Lever/Jordan are out there so often together? Lever was a combo guard who scored on-ball, and Jordan is a freak of nature guard who scores on ball. With Williams unable to get Hakeem away from the lane too much and neither no long range shooters it seems like they're going to run into some walls when they get down low.

[Miller4ever]

Do your math again. League average was 7306 shots attempted over 82 games. 7306 / 82 = 89 attempts per game. And that includes the occasional overtime game so closer to 88. I posted in my writeup what the attempt counts were going to be. You've got some trimming to do on your team. If it's a 102 FGA-type game, Lever might just get a quadruple-double.

As for Lever and Jordan, Lever is a do-it-all player. If anything, he's like the PG version of Scottie Pippen. No one got mad when Pippen handled the ball, so I don't think it's going to be an issue.

And I kinda have to oversell McCray. He was a good player that no one knows about. You should probably do the same with Nate the Not-So-Great.

[RR9]

My team (Gremz' old one) should win against Tmac’s team because I have a dominant front court against him. Gilmore has a strong offensive game and McHale’s one of the best PFs to play the game. Green and Thompson are a strong 2nd string (particularly Thompson has proven so being on the Laker’s bench when he won a championship with them). My backcourt should match up nicely again TMac’s but clyde is also in his prime averaging 25/7/7, which is essential in being the glue of a team. Toney, Harper, and Hornacek’s outside game will definitely give my team an upperhand on offense, bucket after bucket.

[RR9]

My team should win against Snake’s team because I have a dominant front court against him. Gilmore has a strong offensive game and McHale’s one of the best PFs to play the game. Gilmore definitely has the size to guard against Kareem.

Green and Thompson are a strong 2nd string (particularly Thompson has proven so being on the Laker’s bench when he won a championship with them). My backcourt should match up nicely again Snake's with the exception of Isaiah. Porter should still put up a good game. Clyde is also in his prime averaging 25/7/7, which is essential in being the glue of a team. Toney, Harper, and Hornacek’s outside game will definitely give my team an upperhand on offense, bucket after bucket. I have the advantage at the 2 and 4 spots, and my defense just doesn't have any holes!

[CellarDoor]

Do your math again. League average was 7306 shots attempted over 82 games. 7306 / 82 = 89 attempts per game. And that includes the occasional overtime game so closer to 88. I posted in my writeup what the attempt counts were going to be. You've got some trimming to do on your team. If it's a 102 FGA-type game, Lever might just get a quadruple-double.

As for Lever and Jordan, Lever is a do-it-all player. If anything, he's like the PG version of Scottie Pippen. No one got mad when Pippen handled the ball, so I don't think it's going to be an issue.

And I kinda have to oversell McCray. He was a good player that no one knows about. You should probably do the same with Nate the Not-So-Great.

Whoops, went with the pace numbers. My point still holds though that my team won't exactly be in trouble with the number of shots. Especially since Gervin will actually have a competent scorer next to him to help decrease his shot attempts. In the late 70s next to Keenan Gervin took fewer shots and still scored 23-26 a game. With both Johnson and Olajuwon around I expect the same concessions to be made.

With Nate: he is what he is. An excellent table setter, competent scorer, tenacious-as-all-get out defender. Most of the people in this tournament know he's underrated. Just like most know you're overrating McCray (and Parish)

[Miller4ever]

Okay, I'm going to let the voters decide. There's not much more to say.

[bryant08]

vs. Warspite

Rik Smits (32) - Horace Grant (16)
Horace Grant (20) - Derrick McKey (10) - Bob McAdoo (8)
Derrick McKey (20) - Walter Davis (18) - Dan Majerle (10)
Reggie Miller (28) - Dan Majerle (20)
John Stockton (38) - Scott Skiles (10)

My gameplan will be pretty similar, although I'll likely shift Smits into a bigger role. My offensive gameplan is the exact same and I think we've got the scoring in Stockton/Miller/Davis to go h2h with Warspite. I think War's got an absolutely awesome offense so it's definitely going to be tough to stop them but I'm counting on guys like Stockton to play out of their minds for me to win this matchup.

This matchup obviously requires some scheming defensively so I think my options are pretty limited. I'll go with Majerle on Magic, McKey on Bernard King and Stockton on Dale Ellis. My reasoning is that Majerle has enough size to compete with Magic, Miller has the length to try and slow down King to some extent and I know Ellis should be able to shoot over the top of Stock, but I'll try and use him as best I can to get in the passing lanes and disrupt Ellis from getting clean shots off. I'm not going to act like I'm going to win those matchups, but I have faith my guys can make them work. Like I said, War's got some incredible offensive firepower 1-3, and with Daugherty at the 5 spot. I'll try to use Smits for his length on Daugherty.

Offensively my gameplan is the same, bigs setting hard screens/getting on the offensive glass while my guard play revolves around Stockton's ability to create and Miller/Davis scoring the ball.

Overall, War's got a very dynamic offensive team. I'll need a mammoth defensive series to win this one.

[Snakebites]

Snakebites vs. TMAC

ROTATION AND SELECTED SEASONS

C: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 36 (81-82)/Roy Tarpley 12 (87-88)
PF: Dan Roundfield 34 (81-82)/Roy Tarpley 14 (87-88)
SF: Jamal Wilkes (24)/Eddie Johnson (24)
SG: Sidney Moncrief 36 (82-83)/Michael Cooper 12 (87-88)
PG: Isiah Thomas 38 (84-85)/Michael Cooper 10 (87-88)


This matchup in this particular case is very straightforward. TMAC is hands down one of the best at these sorts of games and is the defending champion from the previous era. Though he has a team that is actually fairly sound in its construction it’s a team that is lacking in a few key areas which will allow our team to carry the day in what we feel will be a relatively short series.

Backcourt: Isiah by this stage in his career was leading the league in assists at nearly 14 per game and was also scoring a pretty rock solid and efficient 20 points per game while leading one of the league’s best offenses. He was also very clutch, increasing his scoring output in the playoffs up to 24 ppg on an amazing 50% shooting over 9 games. This pretty much sums up how I’ve always felt about Isiah’s game. The guy was an immensely talented player and he, quite simply, took whatever the opposing defense gave him and found ways to get the job done. Kevin Johnson is an impressive and rising star at this stage in his career, but Isiah is simply better.
Dumars is one of my all time favorite players for reasons that should be obvious. Again, however, I think this issue is pretty straightforward. Dumars is a great defensive guard with a nice mid range shot and killer instincts, but this Joe Dumars is a bit before his peak, and Sidney Moncrief at his peak was simply a much better defensive player and a better offensive force overall as well.

Front Court: First, the small forward position. Wilkins was a monster. I’ve gained a lot of respect for his scoring ability in recent years, but this version of Wilkins was almost exclusively a volume scorer. We have a staunch defensive player in Wilkes who will match up against him for the majority of the minutes he is playing, and Wilkes packs an offensive punch of his own. When he’s not out there, Eddie Johnson will be, and EJ provides valuable spacing to our team. We feel with have a complementary pair of terrific small forwards to match up with our opponent’s best player.
At the big spots, TMAC plans on getting an elite big for next era. Right now, unfortunately, he’s got two complementary pieces who are just that- complements. Perkins and Cummings both look nice next to an elite big but aren’t forceful enough defensively to defend against the likes of one of the best big men in this entire game: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

Overall picture: We have the 3 best players in this series. Our team possesses both a potent offense and an absolutely elite defense (we didn’t even mention Michael Cooper or Dan Rounfield, both All-NBA defensive players in their selected levels). TMAC’s team is built to win in the next era, and in this one it doesn’t yet stack up to the elite 80’s talent this team possesses.

[Snakebites]

Snakebites vs. RR9

ROTATION AND SELECTED SEASONS

C: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 36 (81-82)/Roy Tarpley 12 (87-88)
PF: Dan Roundfield 34 (81-82)/Roy Tarpley 14 (87-88)
SF: Jamal Wilkes (24)/Eddie Johnson (24)
SG: Sidney Moncrief 36 (82-83)/Michael Cooper 12 (87-88)
PG: Isiah Thomas 38 (84-85)/Michael Cooper 10 (87-88)

First off, thank you to RR9 for stepping in and agreeing to play with us. Hope he enjoys finishing out this game with us.

Alrighty, lets take a look at the scenario here:

Front Court: Both teams have elite talent in their front courts, so this seems a viable place to start. First off, Artis Gilmore is an imposing force and efficient scorer, but he isn't a player who really proved he could step up his game against other unique centers. Everything I've heard about his matchups with Kareem indicate that Kareem absolutely dominated the matchup. He was a better volume scorer with more diversity in his offensive arsenal than the relatively limited Gilmore, who was extremely efficient in large part because he took only those shots he felt he could make- very close ones. He has a bit of a rebounding edge, but no larger than the one Roundfield has on McHale.
We'll happily concede the power forward matchup. McHale is certainly better than Roundfield as a scorer, though Roundfield was superior as a rebounder and at the absolute least his equal as a defensive player. This defense will prevent McHale from having an overpowering impact on the matchup.

Overall, we feel that we have the biggest impact big man on either team and enough defense up front to allow us to take the bigs matchup, as Roundfield's midrange game limits McHale's weakside defensive impact and complements Kareem's mixture of post up moves and mid range shots perfectly. Roy Tarpley is an elite 6th man in this game who brings phenomenal rebounding and a diverse offensive game

Out on the perimeter, there is one thing that should be noted first. Isiah Thomas (a version of him who wasn't quite as good as the version RR9 is faced with here) won the Finals MVP against this exact back court. So while Porter is a nice defender, its clear Isiah can still be the most impactful guard in this matchup.
That may ultimately be debateable, however. While we won't assert that Moncrief is as good as Drexler offensively, we do believe he is clearly more efficient and is a vastly superior defender. Moncrief is one of the best defensive perimeter players in the history of the game, and had arms long enough to handle a taller guard like Drexler. Drexler is in for a rough series, and though he still might put up a big game or two being the talented hall of famer that he is, the shooting guard matchup is hardly a no brainer.

The remaining perimeter minutes on our team are given to a trio of what I like to call "ultimate role players" in Wilkes, Cooper, and Johnson. Both Cooper and Johnson give our team the spacing it needs, giving room to operate to our slashers and playmakers, and Cooper was a well noted playoff performer in selected years as well, making more threes than anyone else in the playoffs in the selected season. Wilkes is a 20 ppg efficient scorer who knew how to share the ball and also played terrific defense, making for an exemplarary supporting player. Thus, we feel the roles for the remainder of our rotation are much more clearly defined than our counterparts' players.

Overall: Simply put, while I really like the team our opponent has put together, I simply think our team is 20% better in every aspect. They don't have anyone who can guard Kareem (or Isiah, as data would indicate) effectively and their two best players (McHale and Drexler) are matched by two of our absolutely elite defenders. Kareem and Isiah are the two best players in this series and also the two players I think RR9 isn't quite equipped to defend against. Couple with that the sound construction of our teams' supporting cast, complete with scoring, defense, and spacing, and I think our team presents a sufficiently compelling case to seize this matchup.

[TMACFORMVP]

v. Snakebites

At this stage of Kareem's career, he's a 24/9 center that gets 3 blocks on 58% leading his team with Magic to an NBA championship. So CLEARLY he isn't in his prime. And if Moncrief was so great, why didn't he win three straight DPOY's? Yeah, that's right. And Isiah instead of scoring 16 points in the final 94 seconds to send the game to OT, he should have scored 18 in those 94 seconds to win the game. Then add role players that shoot only 40% from three, or a mid-range All-Defensive double double PF, with versatile defenders that can defend any perimeter position in Cooper, and Wilkes for the forward positions, I don't know if Snake's team has enough.

I think I've done a good job of giving my reasons for why Snake's team should lose, and for those reasons, I believe my team is superior. A vote for TMAC is indeed a right one.

v. RR9

Look at Perkins, and Cummings. Then look at Gilmore and McHale. I think it's obvious who has the edge here. I do. I think Johnny High, and Bill Garnett on the perimeter will create too many matchup problems, enough so that my team will come out on top.

[CellarDoor]

Klees- you didn't address Pressey, who will be the one guarding Purvis and is my point forward. Also, Sleepy, who plays more minutes than Nate was a very good distributor as well. I've got plenty of passing around there. I'll let the voters decide whether or not Gervin will be held to 15ppg, and how bad a defender Nate is.

[SamBone]

I will start off I guess

First and foremost on a serious note, I would like to let gremz know that my thoughts and prayers are with him and his family. It really sucks when you hear bad life events happening to people that you have known from fun games like these. Gremz, I really hope things get better for you and that you can return to "fun" activities soon, hopefully you can get an expansion team!

RR9 vs Tmac:
RR welcome to the game! my vote goes to RR
RR9 vs Snake:
Snake wins
Snake vs TMac:
Snake wins

Ice vs Bryant:
Bryant sprisingly, matches up well, just can't score enough to win, ICE wins
Bryant vs WAR:
Bryant basically says so in his writeup, War is too good, WAR wins
WAR vs ICE:
close series for sure. King and Doc battle eachother to a tie. I really like WAR's backcourt and think ICE is under estimating his opponent and overconfident with his guys. Bird goes wild here, and as talented as WAR's bigs are (I love Chambers and Willis off the bench), I just don't think they can hurt ICE's weakness enough. the Bird andvantge is greater then the Magic/Ellis anvantage, and I would think ICE wins a very very close series even though I really like WAR's team alot

Miller vs Kees:
Miller will win

CD vs Kees:
CD will win

CD vs Miller:
WOW, you guys need your own thread. All the adjusted/estimated/projected/toss things against the wall numbers that are being put out there is a tad confusing. I really appreciate all the info that you 2 legends are tossing out there. At the end of the day, I gotta use my thoughts since after reading all the posts and rebuttals twice, I am sort of confused who actually has who, lol

I agree that MJ even though he still is not the well rounded "greatest of all time" player he becomes is still damn good and almost unstoppable, and I do really like Buck! Gervin will still get his, even being guarded by the DPOY (and he will work on the other end guarding the MVP) to me Nance and Hakeem are just too much for Buck and Parish to handle.

In summary, my vote goes with whover has Gervin/Hakeem/Nance! I think that is CD, but not sure, lol

[CellarDoor]

Just makin sure no one's confused and thinks Gervin is guarding MJ. Nate and Pressey will always be on Michael. Gervin's on Fat mostly and will see time on McCray as well.

[CellarDoor]

I'm going to do some of these quickly because I have it in my head pretty absolutely. Will get to the rest later:

RR over TMAC

Snake over TMAC

Snake over RR

Ice over Bryant

War over Bryant

Luke over MJ

Sam over MJ

The War/Ice match-up and Sam/Luke match-up need some more time. I need to read over it again and check some stuff.

[Warspite]

Heading to Vegas for the weekend so Ill do this very quick and my apology for not going into detail.

Snakebites 2-0
RR-9 1-1 (I think this goes 7 games vs Snake)
TMac0-2

CD 2-0 (goes 7 games vs both opponets)
Miller 1-1
Keys 0-2 (I realy like this team its just in a tough division but it has a bright future)

Luke 2-0 (Might be the only team that can matchup down low with SamBone)
SamBone 1-1
MJ 0-2

[lukekarts]

My votes will come later tonight

[CellarDoor]

Heading to Vegas for the weekend so Ill do this very quick and my apology for not going into detail.

Snakebites 2-0
RR-9 1-1 (I think this goes 7 games vs Snake)
TMac0-2

CD 2-0 (goes 7 games vs both opponets)
Miller 1-1
Keys 0-2 (I realy like this team its just in a tough division but it has a bright future)

Luke 2-0 (Might be the only team that can matchup down low with SamBone)
SamBone 1-1
MJ 0-2

Have fun man!

I think I'm going against War's grain on the Luke/Sam match-up. I feel like there's not a good enough table setter for Worthy while he's going againts B Jones to get off in the way he'd need to to overcome this team.

Okay...finally going to make a decision on War/BI. I've gone back and forth on this a dozen times, but I'm going to go Warspite on the basis of experience, and I like the team's build and Magic's fit.

I'll edit my last judgement into here as well when I'm done.

So to make it easier for TMAC to count, here's all my final votes:

Warspite- 2-0
Sambone- 2-0
Snake- 2-0
RR- 1-1
BI- 1-1
Luke- 1-1
MJ- 0-2
Bryant- 0-2
TMAC- 300-0