BaNT 1st round: BOTTOM BRACKET - 24hr extension to break tie

[dockingsched]

votes aren't due til monday night. u can go back and forth with your opponent til then if u wish. i'll be holding off my vote til then.

[bcortell]

OK thanks

[SamBone]

I have an idea what way I will be going here as well, any last minute rebutals will be heard.

Will post tomorrow after everyone has a chance to respond

DCA$H vs Denied

Poop vs BNess

Hoffa vs VC4Pres

[Miller4ever]

I will vote on the easiest matchup first.

vincecarter4pres gets my vote. bringbackhoffa has talent, but the construction of his team and his gameplan aren't sufficient. VC4P has the better frontcourt rotation, and he has great players off the bench.

Also, dcash I think wins his series against deNIEd. I think that deNIEd really took a bold step in his rotations and he has the ability to really cause some damage, but Jermaine O'Neal and Marcus Camby are both unable to lock down the paint anymore. This series is extremely close, and Melo is borderline up there with the 5 players disallowed from this game.

Gremz beats SamBone in 7, but this was a tough matchup. The truth is that Boned Samuels has a better starting 5, but barely, while Gremz holds what I feel is a significant edge off the bench. They both have great closers, but Gremz has the rebounding advantage over 48 minutes. I like that Bones rolled the dice on Hibbert, but even with that, I think that the Boned Samuels are not utilizing their players as well as they could.

[poopdamoop]

Offense:
We will pound the ball to our main guy, Bosh. He has the ability to score from the post, score with his jumpshot, and create for his teamates. We will also rely on our ability to penetrate and dish to open jump shooters. The Millers, Allen, Turk, and West all have the ability to beat there man off the dribble and hit the open shot. We will be able to move the ball around and get good shots since you can't double off any one player on this team. I can not describe to you at how many three's we will get a game. Think RL Orlando, but better. EVERYONE can shoot the three.

So you're essentially going to live/die by the 3? Nevermind that Miller isn't actually a 3pt shooter, but trying to play like Orlando without having Howard in the middle is not a recipe for success. Bosh and Okafor do not demand attention like Dwight does.

Defense:
Man to Man with help around the bucket. Andre Miller, Ray Allen, Boris Diaw Delonte West are all above average defenders who can hold there own on defense. Altough they are not defensive "stoppers" they can all get the job done. Bosh and Okafor are great shot blockers and rebounders, so we love what they can do together, scary front court. Also, West can gaurd the 1's and 2's as well as Diaw can gaurd the 3's and 4's. With our veristility we can handle just about anyform of offensive players.

Okafor and West are your only good defenders, and calling Ray Allen above average is a stretch.

Sure, "Raps in 4" can score, and score alot, but will they be able to stop anyone or anything? NO! All of my players are 2 dimensional players while his team is just score score score. Other than Jax and Chalmers i dont konw who he has to stop me. THis will become a shoot out in a hurry, i can sense that already. But i have the ability to slow this thing down, with players like Bosh and Meka to throw the ball into and have them score in the post. He's gonna want to run, and that will not work. Miller will be able to get by Nash. Hedo is to much for the young Thaddeus Young to handle.
Bosh although similar in offensive games with Amare is a MUCH better defender. Okafor's bread and butter is defense and rebounding. Overall i think this would be a good series again, but i feel due to Okafor's game altering defense is the difference here. Phantoms in 7.

I don't see how Ray Allen and Hedo Turkaglu are 2 dimensional, but Manu Ginobili and Thad Young aren't? My perimeter defense is better than yours. Jackson, Ginobili, and Young are a better defensive trio than West, Allen, and Turk, while being just as good offensively, if not better. And in terms of post offense, Amare is a better scorer than Bosh, especially with Nash feeding him the ball, and Bogut is a comparable scorer to Okafor. It's not like you have Shaq down low to throw the ball to. If the game slows down, I can abuse the Nash/Amare PnR, since neither Miller nor Bosh are good enough defensively to disrupt it, and I can free up Ginobili and Jackson to create as well, and I have shooters that are just as good as yours waiting to fire them up.

Your team fits together really well, but your biggest strength (frontcourt) is negated by mine, and I'll take Nash/Ginobili/Jackson over Miller/Allen/West anyday.

[bcortell]

I'm not the head coach, but I might offer some advice to him such as "Let's put Delonte on Nash to stop the pick and roll and then let Jackson throw up those (Please Use More Appropriate Word) shots".

We might also just let Miller get right by Nash everyone. Defense starts with stopping penetration, and Nash can't. Then once everyone has to help him out, Ray and Hedo will be wide open for the three ball.

Oh and just for sihts and giggles, let's looks at the guards' and wings' defensive ratings from last year...

Nash 115
Jackson 114
Young 109
Ginobli 101

Miller 110
Allen 106
Turkoglu 104
West 104

And that's not even mentioning that you have Ginobli playing 17 minutes at SF, a position he does much worse at.

[poopdamoop]

I'm not the head coach, but I might offer some advice to him such as "Let's put Delonte on Nash to stop the pick and roll and then let Jackson throw up those (Please Use More Appropriate Word) shots".

We might also just let Miller get right by Nash everyone. Defense starts with stopping penetration, and Nash can't. Then once everyone has to help him out, Ray and Hedo will be wide open for the three ball.

Oh and just for sihts and giggles, let's looks at the guards' and wings' defensive ratings from last year...

Nash 115
Jackson 114
Young 109
Ginobli 101

Miller 110
Allen 106
Turkoglu 104
West 104

And that's not even mentioning that you have Ginobli playing 17 minutes at SF, a position he does much worse at.

So now Delonte is on Nash, but Miller is going to go right at Nash too? I assume Miller will be guarding Jackson or Ginobili then? I'm sure that will turn out well. Besides, you need a great big man defender to stop the PnR, and Bosh is not that. Jackson's "(Please Use More Appropriate Word) shots" came when he was creating everything himself, when there was no one to tell him to stop shooting. He was the first option on GS and had much more attention from defences. Now he has arguably the best offensive point guard in the game creating for him. You're telling me that isn't going to affect his percentages?

And ever since Nash has been in Phoenix, Miller has shot a grand total of 41.6% against him (82/197). I'm not sure relying on Andre Miller to win you a series is a good idea anymore.

As for your defensive stats:

- Nash and Jackson both played on terrible defensive teams with no real interior defensive schemes. I have one of the best big men defenders in the league in Bogut and another great one in Noah coming off the bench.

- Allen and Turkoglu played for two of the best defensive teams in the league, which skews their defensive ratings. They look much better since they had Kevin Garnett and Dwight Howard behind them cleaning up their messes. Okafor is a good defender, but he's not elite.

- Ginobili will be playing SF alongside Jackson. He will still be guarding the SG on defense, so what position I call him on offense really means nothing.

Anything else?

[dockingsched]

about 24 hrs to get your votes in.

[bcortell]

I'm not the head coach, but I might offer some advice to him such as "Let's put Delonte on Nash to stop the pick and roll and then let Jackson throw up those (Please Use More Appropriate Word) shots".

We might also just let Miller get right by Nash everyone. Defense starts with stopping penetration, and Nash can't. Then once everyone has to help him out, Ray and Hedo will be wide open for the three ball.

Oh and just for sihts and giggles, let's looks at the guards' and wings' defensive ratings from last year...

Nash 115
Jackson 114
Young 109
Ginobli 101

Miller 110
Allen 106
Turkoglu 104
West 104

And that's not even mentioning that you have Ginobli playing 17 minutes at SF, a position he does much worse at.

So now Delonte is on Nash, but Miller is going to go right at Nash too? I assume Miller will be guarding Jackson or Ginobili then? I'm sure that will turn out well. Besides, you need a great big man defender to stop the PnR, and Bosh is not that. Jackson's "(Please Use More Appropriate Word) shots" came when he was creating everything himself, when there was no one to tell him to stop shooting. He was the first option on GS and had much more attention from defences. Now he has arguably the best offensive point guard in the game creating for him. You're telling me that isn't going to affect his percentages?

And ever since Nash has been in Phoenix, Miller has shot a grand total of 41.6% against him (82/197). I'm not sure relying on Andre Miller to win you a series is a good idea anymore.

As for your defensive stats:

- Nash and Jackson both played on terrible defensive teams with no real interior defensive schemes. I have one of the best big men defenders in the league in Bogut and another great one in Noah coming off the bench.

- Allen and Turkoglu played for two of the best defensive teams in the league, which skews their defensive ratings. They look much better since they had Kevin Garnett and Dwight Howard behind them cleaning up their messes. Okafor is a good defender, but he's not elite.

- Ginobili will be playing SF alongside Jackson. He will still be guarding the SG on defense, so what position I call him on offense really means nothing.

Anything else?

Didn't say Miller would be on Nash too.. Who said we were really on Andre Miller to win us the series? No one, but if you can't stop him, why would we need to rely on anyone else? Also, Bogut isn't that great of a defender, and whatever you want to say about Bogut protecting the paint against our PG can be applied to Okafor, except he does it better. (Not that it matters, as Bogut and Ginobli will probably be out with injuries. )You take guys who developed bad habits on offense and defense and then "hope" and assume they'll get better for your team.. right.

[SamBone]

I'm not the head coach, but I might offer some advice to him such as "Let's put Delonte on Nash to stop the pick and roll and then let Jackson throw up those (Please Use More Appropriate Word) shots".

We might also just let Miller get right by Nash everyone. Defense starts with stopping penetration, and Nash can't. Then once everyone has to help him out, Ray and Hedo will be wide open for the three ball.

Oh and just for sihts and giggles, let's looks at the guards' and wings' defensive ratings from last year...

Nash 115
Jackson 114
Young 109
Ginobli 101

Miller 110
Allen 106
Turkoglu 104
West 104

And that's not even mentioning that you have Ginobli playing 17 minutes at SF, a position he does much worse at.

So now Delonte is on Nash, but Miller is going to go right at Nash too? I assume Miller will be guarding Jackson or Ginobili then? I'm sure that will turn out well. Besides, you need a great big man defender to stop the PnR, and Bosh is not that. Jackson's "(Please Use More Appropriate Word) shots" came when he was creating everything himself, when there was no one to tell him to stop shooting. He was the first option on GS and had much more attention from defences. Now he has arguably the best offensive point guard in the game creating for him. You're telling me that isn't going to affect his percentages?

And ever since Nash has been in Phoenix, Miller has shot a grand total of 41.6% against him (82/197). I'm not sure relying on Andre Miller to win you a series is a good idea anymore.

As for your defensive stats:

- Nash and Jackson both played on terrible defensive teams with no real interior defensive schemes. I have one of the best big men defenders in the league in Bogut and another great one in Noah coming off the bench.

- Allen and Turkoglu played for two of the best defensive teams in the league, which skews their defensive ratings. They look much better since they had Kevin Garnett and Dwight Howard behind them cleaning up their messes. Okafor is a good defender, but he's not elite.

- Ginobili will be playing SF alongside Jackson. He will still be guarding the SG on defense, so what position I call him on offense really means nothing.

Anything else?

Didn't say Miller would be on Nash too.. Who said we were really on Andre Miller to win us the series? No one, but if you can't stop him, why would we need to rely on anyone else? Also, Bogut isn't that great of a defender, and whatever you want to say about Bogut protecting the paint against our PG can be applied to Okafor, except he does it better. (Not that it matters, as Bogut and Ginobli will probably be out with injuries. )You take guys who developed bad habits on offense and defense and then "hope" and assume they'll get better for your team.. right.

good arguements on both sides, this matchup has gone to game 7, please continue. Cortell great points doing a fine job as assistant, would love the head GM to chime in.

[CellarDoor]

DCash v. Denied

Interesting match-up in a few ways. I appreciate Denied's attempts to throw curveballs at his opponent, and I appreciate DCash's attempt to replicate Orlando somewhat. I feel like Denied covered more bases in his write-up/rebuttal, and I'm a little disappointed Cash didn't catch a few glaring issues (most notably the fact that when Rip was "torching" Salmons, he was actually torching a shooting guard since this is the first year he's playing the 2 that isn't next to KMart or Ben Gordon). And the 5 points average includes many years that Denied knows good and well as a Kings fan Salmons wasn't starting. That's like taking JON's first few years' numbers and saying Dale Davis could lock him down anytime anywhere. I will give Cash credit for correctly calling Denied out on the Camby being a good defender thing. His DPOY was a joke and while he's an excellent help defender, to call him anything more than average on-ball is a flat out lie.

Ultimately, Denied had the better write-up/rebuttals. Though I feel Cash's team should have won, I've got to go Denied here.

[CellarDoor]

BBHoffa v. VC4P

I'd really have liked to see some rebuttals here. Since there are none, I'm simply going with my gut of VC4P.

[CellarDoor]

Bness/BCortell v. Poopdamoop
First, Bness is losing points with me for insulting my intelligence by calling Ray Allen a 2 dimensional player, but imply SJax can't play a lick of defense. :p

Not sure where Bness is, but Cortell's been doing a nice job in his stead. To be completely honest, I'm going to let this series go until I see if my vote is needed because frankly, I haven't seen enough of Bogut recently to know wether to call BS on Poop's claims about his defense or not. And the series is close.

[CellarDoor]

Sambone v. Gremz

I'm frankly shocked to see someone boasting of Gay's defense. Especially when Pierce is a solid enough defender that you could use him if you're looking at your wing players. (Also, if Rondo's a top defensive player in the league-- as in top 5-- I'll eat my shoe. On Gremz' side..I'm not a fan of the Horford pick so soon, but it's not hurting him here. Kaman has noticeably declined with or without injuries in the recent past. To the point where he's absolutely not better than Horford at anything imo. Boozer's got the edge on AJ, but it's a mutually assured destruction sort of thing except in rebounding where, for all AJ's prowess, Boozer has him beat. If there's one thing Sam's rebuttal proved it's that neither Gay nor Howard are going to be primary factors here. Which is fine as they're both at best third options.

I also tend to agree with Gremz about the Roy/Pierce debate, and I think that with him correctly sagging Bibby off of Rondo that will be enough to swing it his way. Just barely though.

To Sam, as I recall, this is your first time doing this. You weren't talking to me, so I don't know if you had help with your write-up, but it was a very good one. Good job.

[poopdamoop]

Didn't say Miller would be on Nash too.. Who said we were really on Andre Miller to win us the series? No one, but if you can't stop him, why would we need to rely on anyone else? Also, Bogut isn't that great of a defender, and whatever you want to say about Bogut protecting the paint against our PG can be applied to Okafor, except he does it better. (Not that it matters, as Bogut and Ginobli will probably be out with injuries. )You take guys who developed bad habits on offense and defense and then "hope" and assume they'll get better for your team.. right.

"Let's put Delonte on Nash to stop the pick and roll and then let Jackson throw up those (Please Use More Appropriate Word) shots".

We might also just let Miller get right by Nash everyone.

Which is it? If you want to do both, that means Miller and West are both going to be on the floor and if West is "shutting down Nash" then Miller will have to guard Ginobili or Jackson. Besides, Andre Miller has historically "torched" Nash to the tune of 14 points on 42% shooting, and I am fine with those numbers.

btw, Nash vs Delonte? Nash puts up 15/10 on 48% shooting. Can't see him stopping the pick and roll very effectively. Besides, with everything that's going on with him right now I'm not sure if he'd be a help or a detriment to the team.

As for Bogut, http://www.82games.com/0809/08MIL17.HTM

It's a decently big sample size to show that his -10.8 defensive point differential is not just a fluke. The guy makes a huge impact when he is out there defensively, and takes charges as well as any big man in the game. I have nothing against Okafor, I think he's a great defender as well, but there is not a big difference defensively between him and Bogut.

And the bad habits thing? I'm not "hoping" or "assuming" they will get better, I know they will get better because

A. Jackson is playing under Nash, one of the best leaders in the game. In GS he had no real coaching and no boundries. Here if he gets too trigger happy, Ginobili comes in to replace him until he gets his head on straight.

B. Even with all of Jackson's (Please Use More Appropriate Word) shots, he still shoots about as well as Hedo from the field. So what does that make Turk?

[deNIEd]

DCash v. Denied
he was actually torching a shooting guard since this is the first year he's playing the 2 that isn't next to KMart or Ben Gordon). And the 5 points average includes many years that Denied knows good and well as a Kings fan Salmons wasn't starting. T

Camby being a good defender thing. His DPOY was a joke and while he's an excellent help defender, to call him anything more than average on-ball is a flat out lie.

Salmons still averaged 23 minutes during those "5" points. Take out his first year, and the one game he played 6 minutes in, and Salmons is averaging 27 minutes while still only putting up 6.833 points. I know from watching the King's games, is that often times Salmons would guard Hamilton, mainly because he's a better defender than Martin, and Prince not being an incredible offensive threat.


Lol, I should have been more clear about Camby. What you said is correct, he's not an amazing on-ball defender, but he is however a great help defender and still one of the best shot blockers in the league. I recognized the fact that Jefferson would have a clear advantage over Camby in the paint, which is why I put O'Neal on him. O'Neal has the size and skillset to defend Jefferson properly.


Ultimately I feel that my gameplan beats out Homers. My defensive strategy greatly weakens the Homer's ability to score, and my offensive gameplan creates mismatches at essentially every position of the court. Add in the fact that my team has one of the clutchest, best and most complete offensive players in the game.

[CellarDoor]

Salmons still averaged 23 minutes during those "5" points. Take out his first year, and the one game he played 6 minutes in, and Salmons is averaging 27 minutes while still only putting up 6.833 points. I know from watching the King's games, is that often times Salmons would guard Hamilton, mainly because he's a better defender than Martin, and Prince not being an incredible offensive threat.

You're not playing the Kings' Salmons, you're playing this years' Salmons. The one who's greatly improved over his first seasons. The one who's turned into a very good iso player, a competent creator, and a good enough defender to both Paul Pierce for an entire series with an injured groin. I simply think you're discounting the Salmons he has the same way I'll probably discount Jamal Crawford (if he's improved) because I know what I saw when he was with Chicago.

[deNIEd]

Salmons still averaged 23 minutes during those "5" points. Take out his first year, and the one game he played 6 minutes in, and Salmons is averaging 27 minutes while still only putting up 6.833 points. I know from watching the King's games, is that often times Salmons would guard Hamilton, mainly because he's a better defender than Martin, and Prince not being an incredible offensive threat.

The one who's turned into a very good iso player, a competent creator, and a good enough defender to both Paul Pierce for an entire series with an injured groin.

This is also something I forgot to mention. One of the reasons Salmons was essentially dumped for garbage (Nocioni is a bum), was the fact that he relied so much on his iso-game. Yes is a good iso player, but he always turns into an iso-player, completely stopping the entire flow of the game (Something that happened every single game while he was in Sacramento...aka the time he got "good" up until about 6 months ago.)

[CellarDoor]

Salmons still averaged 23 minutes during those "5" points. Take out his first year, and the one game he played 6 minutes in, and Salmons is averaging 27 minutes while still only putting up 6.833 points. I know from watching the King's games, is that often times Salmons would guard Hamilton, mainly because he's a better defender than Martin, and Prince not being an incredible offensive threat.

The one who's turned into a very good iso player, a competent creator, and a good enough defender to both Paul Pierce for an entire series with an injured groin.

This is also something I forgot to mention. One of the reasons Salmons was essentially dumped for garbage (Nocioni is a bum), was the fact that he relied so much on his iso-game. Yes is a good iso player, but he always turns into an iso-player, completely stopping the entire flow of the game (Something that happened every single game while he was in Sacramento...aka the time he got "good" up until about 6 months ago.)

It's also something that changed in Chi town.

[deNIEd]

It's also something that changed in Chi town.

Fair enough.


Homers still can't beat Off Constantly though