Franchise League HoF Restriction Round One

[Warspite]

Bulls vs Sixers: After furtehr looking I see both Moses and DrJ are in there MVP yrs and Cheeks/Toney is as good as your going to get. Jones is the best player off of the bench and a great defender. Ill take the 76ers especialy with no writeup.

Bucks vs Magic: I take the Bucks simply because of defense. That simply is one of the best def teams I have seen. i also think Sikma and KAJ work realy well. Now just imagine had DrJ not gone to the ABA. He would be a Buck.

To answer Bastillon: Your not going to ourrebound anyone if you cant stop the other team from scoring. Theres no rebounds off of made baskets.

[bastillon]

To answer Bastillon: Your not going to ourrebound anyone if you cant stop the other team from scoring. Theres no rebounds off of made baskets.

your players are inefficient scorers aside from Wilt (and would have to adjust his FG% by era to make him efficient anyway), who I can foul to make him shoot free throws anyway. I just don't see this great firepower. sure, there are a lot of talented scorers (don't get me wrong), but unless we're playing with 3-4 balls, my defense can sustain that damage. most importantly - your backcourt starters aren't efficient shooters and I can make them shoot. once Barry/Mullin are both in the game it becomes much harder to double on Wilt, but still there will be 1 legit 3pt threat from your side. somehow I'm not amazed. also, unless you're making 60% of your perimeter shots (which is flat out impossible - GOAT shooter Steve Nash is shooting 50% from the perimeter), I AM going to outrebound your team... as evidenced by the numbers.

again - numbers don't lie:

Rockets:
Moses - 60.4% TS, 117 ORtg
Hakeem - 57.7% TS, 114 ORtg
Rudy - 58.7 TS%, 10.8 OWS (though Win Shares aren't that reliable pre 1978), ranked 2nd in the league in both categories, played on 3rd best offense that year too, and was a perennial member of 1st ranked offenses of the 70s Rockets
Battier - 56.1% TS, 117 ORtg
Francis - 56.3% TS, 113 ORtg

Wilt - around 50% TS depending on what you think about his FTs
L.Smith - 55.3% TS, 112 ORtg, efficient in extremely limited volumes, homeless Rodman in general
Barry - career ~50% TS

Sprewell - 52.7% TS, 108 ORtg, inefficient scorer with decent playmaking skills
Hardaway - 55% TS, 112 ORtg, efficient player with good playmaking
but remember, both enjoyed the benefits of shortened line

so it's not like I've made this all up. this is all supported by the numbers - Rockets are very efficient, Warriors not so much. is it my fault ?

I summed up adjusted TRB% from every position and the results were as I posted: 56% Rockets, 44% Warriors. can't argue with the numbers.

I think the Warriors win the matchup by a little bit. I think bastillon's writeup is way off base, but I've said crazier things, so that's not why I am not voting for him. I just think that when you have Wilt Chamberlain and Rick Barry in prime years backed up by Run TMC, the firepower alone is overwhelming. It isn't inefficient or one-dimensional, it's good, healthy, balanced scoring. I think Battier is one of the worst starting players in this competition, even though I personally like him a lot. Francis will contribute greatly to the Warrior's fastbreak effort with his turnovers.

during the given year (2001), Francis averaged 3.3 TOV playing as creator/initiator. as I said, his job is to get the ball to Hakeem as he's being guarded by Jamison. I don't see how that would affect his turnovers. that is unless Jamison plays inspired Garnett-like defense on Hakeem, which I don't think could happen.

as for Battier, individually probably yes. here he's used as entry passer, spot-up shooter and defender. I mean it's not like Battier's gonna play 1on1 vs Spree when Hakeem is being guarded by Jamison, you know what I mean ?

I knew it would end like that, I'm known as Wilt-hater and I think Barry's overrated as well so I guess I should've sticked with the numbers alone. mostly I did, but still.

[Miller4ever]

The whole point of rebound rate is so that you don't adjust it to numbers. It's already a measure of what % of rebounds a player gets WHEN THEY ARE ON THE FLOOR. Hence, if I play 12 minutes and grab 10% of the rebounds, I don't get 30% of the rebounds if I play 36 minutes. I still grab 12% of the rebounds.

Of course, it doesn't change what the numbers show, but if you're going to tout your numbers, at least know what they mean.

[SamBone]

My votes are for Worriors, Blazers and Bucks

[lorak]

Indiana – Portland
I think it’s closer than people think, because ABA McGinnis was almost as good as Dr J. However Blazers frontcourt is too deep, too good: prime Walton with Sabonis as his backup alongside Wallace and Buck Williams at PF – WOW. So Blazers.

Golden state – Houston
It’s not wise to use Battier on Barry because it leaves Rudy T with Spree, who at his time was great finisher and no way Tomjanovich could stop him – first step and Spree is gone and wide open. But Rockets have two all time great centers and I think it’s too much for Warriors frontcourt. Obviously Wilt was great, but Larry Smith is different story… Jamison also can’t do much against Moses or Hakeem and alone Chamberlain can’t cover them both. Rockets.

Philadelphia – Chicago
Jordan and Pippen are the worst possible matchup for Dr J. On the other hand 76ers haven’t answer to Bulls perimeter players. The only Philadelphia advantage is Moses, but his offensive rebounding would be limited with Gilmore in the paint (Artis was one of the best defensive rebounders in history). Bulls.

[bastillon]

The whole point of rebound rate is so that you don't adjust it to numbers. It's already a measure of what % of rebounds a player gets WHEN THEY ARE ON THE FLOOR. Hence, if I play 12 minutes and grab 10% of the rebounds, I don't get 30% of the rebounds if I play 36 minutes. I still grab 12% of the rebounds.

Of course, it doesn't change what the numbers show, but if you're going to tout your numbers, at least know what they mean.

that's why I included mins in my formula.
example: Jamison has 10% rebound rate, Larry Smith has 20% rebound rate. if both are playing the same amount of mins (24/24), team's rebounding rate for their PFs is at 15%.

I considered the mins of all, rebound rates and my team has massive advantage on the boards.

It’s not wise to use Battier on Barry because it leaves Rudy T with Spree, who at his time was great finisher and no way Tomjanovich could stop him – first step and Spree is gone and wide open.

interesting approach but I wondered about this and came up with that explanation: when Spree is in the game with Tomjanovich on him, Larry Smith is also in the game. Hakeem can sag off and protect the paint and Spree isn't efficient enough to punish me with his midrange jumpshot. Tomjanovich will also play him for his J, as I'd love to see him shooting 2pt jumpers or even better, out-of-his-range 3s.

Spree will be guarded by Tomjanovich very few mins, because Warspite is playing with 3 man rotation at SF-SG and unless he can invent a way to insert Mullin at both positions at the same time, he won't be able to find enough mins for Barry-Spree duo to exploit that matchup. vast majority of the time Tomjanovich will guard Mullin, who's a spot-up shooter in ATL competitions.

I think most of the voters were deceived by Warriors having much better names in their line-up. Francis is known as slashing/scoring PG who doesn't play the PG role very well. Battier based on individual talent is one of the worst players here. Tomjanovich wasn't known for his dominance despite his 74 season being very comparable to Barry's 75 (if not better - considerably more efficient).

when you analyse those specific years, you'd find out that Francis was 40% 3P shooter on many attempts that year and I'm using him in Derek Fisher role - to bring the ball up the floor and only that. he's not even my primary PEP. Battier, despite his limitations, will play off the ball 99% of the game, only shooting open 3s and making entry passes on offense, while guarding the best opposing player on defense. same as Tomjanovich.

I guess what you might have thought is that Francis will go into hot-head mode and try to create... but make no mistake, I'd consequently pound the ball inside to exploit the ridiculous advantage at either PF/C (whomever is being guarded by Jamison).

Penbeast0 called it poor coaching, but didn't provide any explanation. I guess I'll have to live with it and remember that low profile names aren't noticed as much as flashy players like Spree, even when their team doesn't fit at all.

[SamBone]

dude give up! Nobody believes what you are selling! You do this every game, and nobody cares about your rediculous reasonings or views.

At least the guy you are losing to did a writeup, I am about to be the 1st team in the history of these games to lose to a team with no writeup

[Miller4ever]

Latrell Sprewell...flashy?

His rims, maybe.

[CellarDoor]

dude give up! Nobody believes what you are selling! You do this every game, and nobody cares about your rediculous reasonings or views.

At least the guy you are losing to did a writeup, I am about to be the 1st team in the history of these games to lose to a team with no writeup

Not true. I've done so once before in a contemporary league .

[bastillon]

I'm not trying to convince anybody at this point. I acknowledge that this series is lost. I'm simply defending my case as some of you argued against me. I tried to convince you by doing my write-up, but I failed. I should've sticked to raw numbers and popular beliefs, that way I'd be less intriguing (or some might say ridiculous ).

Latrell Sprewell...flashy?

His rims, maybe.

in comparison to Shane Battier, hell yeah. the bottomline was that I think you were deceived by big names that Warriors have produced over their time in the NBA. most of them weren't as productive as it's believed. I've already shown in PC Board how Wilt impacted his teams. I also believe that Spree, Barry and some other Warriors are overrated, because they get away with being poor-efficiency players. so the point I was making is that Warriors had some great players in their history... but they weren't necessarily helping this franchise as much as you would guess.

[SamBone]

It is really hard to take losing to a team with no writeup, but PLEASE look at the seasons that the players had

Gordon (09)/Van Lier(73)/Kirk(07)
Jordan(91)/Sloan(71)/Kirk(07)
Pippen(91)/Jordan(91)/Walker(72)
Grant(92)/Woolridge(85)/Chandler(05)
Gilmore(82)/Wallace(07)/Chandler(05)

PG: Mo Cheeks (84), Eric Snow (03), Aaron McKie(01)
SG: Andrew Toney (85), Chet Walker (69), Doug Collins (75), Hersey Hawkins
SF: Doc J (81), Andre Iguadala (07), Clarence Weatherspoon (94)
PF: Caldwell Jones (81), Bobby Jones (83), Steve Mix (74)
C: MOSES (83), Sammy Dalembert (08), Daryl Dawkins (80)

PG: Cheeks (30), ESnow (18) McKie
SG: Toney (23), Chet (10), Collins (10), iggy (5), Hawkins
SF: Doc (35), Iggy (13), Spoon
PF: C.Jones (24), B.Jones (24), Mix
C: MOSES (37), Sammy (11), Dawkins

REBOUNDING, Shooting, Chemistry, balance, Defense : I got it ALL!

It is hard to take getting NO votes against a team that had No write up (Yes mine was small like the rules said, and late) but I did one.

PG’s
Ben Gordon: 20.7 ppg (on 16 shots a game which he will never see)
45.5 FG%, 41% from 3, 3.4 asst, 3.5 reb, .9 steals,
no league awards and not in any league leaders lists for any category

Mo Cheeks: 12.7 ppg (9.4 shots so realistic),
55% FG% and 40% from 3, 6.4 assts, 2.7 reb, 2.3 steals
1st Team All defensive, 5th in steals,

bench
Van Lier: 13.9 ppg, 44.5 FG%, 78.7 FT%, 7.1 asst, 5.5 reb
2nd team All Defensive, 5th in assists,

E,Snow: 12.9 ppg, 45.2 FG%, 85.8 FT%, 6.6 asst, 3.7 reb, 1.6 steals
2nd team All defensive, 9th in assists

SG’s
MJ: Great no argument so no stats are needed. Will be guarded most of the time by Bobby Jones (1st team All defensive and 6th Man of the Year), when Bobby is in the game. But MJ will lite up Andrew Toney, Chet Walker, and and co

bench
Sloan: (not sure how much time he will get behind MJ or if he gets his 17 FG attempts)
18.3 ppg, 44.1 FG%, 71.5 FT%, 8.8 reb, 3.5 assts
2nd team All Defensive,

Doug Collins (can the so so coach compete with a great coach?)
17.9 ppg (14.2 shots) 48.8 FG%, 84.4 FT%, 3.9 reb, 2.6 assts, 1.3 steals

SF
Pippen: 17.8 ppg, 52 FG%, 70.6 FT%, 7.3 reb, 6.2 asst, 2.4 steals, 1.1 blocks
2nd team all defensive, 5th in league in steals, 6th in Defensive win shares

Doc J: 24.6 ppg, 52.1 FG%, 78.7 FT%, 8 reb, 4.4 assts, 2.1 steals, 1.8 blocks
MVP, All NBA 1st team, All Star, 10th in FT’s, 9th in offensive rebounds, 6th in steals,
5th in scoring, 4th in EFF, 4th in defensive rating, 7th in offensive win shares, 2nd in defensive win shares, 2nd in overall win shares, 1st in win shares per 48(?)

bench
Chet Walker (he is playing for both teams)
22 ppg, 50.5 fg%, 84.7 FT%, 6.1 reb, 2.3 asst
4th in FT%

Iggy: 18.2 ppg, 44.7 FG%, 82 FG%, 5.7 reb, 5.7 assts, 2 steals
2nd in steals,

PF:
Grant: 14.2 ppg, 57.8 FG%, 74.1 FT%, 10 reb, 2.7 asst, 1.2 steals, 1.6 blocks
7th defensive rating, 5th Offensive reb %,

Candwell Jones: 7.2 ppg, 45.9 FG%, 76.7 FT%, 10 reb, 1.5 assts, 1.7 blocks
1st team All defensive, 30th in MVP shares (lol, but he got a vote), 6h in Def rebounds, 9th in total rebounds, 3rd in defensive win shares, 5th def rating

my 6th man
Bobby Jones: 9 ppg, 54.3 FG%, 79.3 FT%, 4.6 reb, 1.9 asst, 1.1 steal, 1.2 blk
6th Man of the Year, 1st team All Defensive

bench
Woolridge: 22.9 ppg, 55.4 FG%, 78.5 FT%, 5.6 reb, 1.8 assts, .8 steal
10th FG%, 9th off win shares

Mix: 14.9 ppg, 47.5 FG%, 79.2 FT%, 10.5 reb, 1.9 assts, 2.6 steals
2nd in steals, 5th in Offensive rebounds

C:
Gilmore:18.5 ppg, 65.2 FG%(WOW), 76.8 FT%, 10.2 reb (7.5 d /2.7 o), 1.7 ast, 2.7 blk
AS, 1st FG%, 9th in FT’s, 7th in def rebounds, 8th in total rebounds, 3rd in blocks,
10th in EFF, 8th in off win shares, 8th in total win shares,

MOSES: 24.5 ppg, 50.1 FG%, 76.1 FT%, 15.3 reb (9.6 d/ 5.7 o), 1.3 asst, 1.1 steals, 2 blk
MVP, Finals MVP, All NBA 1st team, 1st team All Defensive, AS, 1st in FT’s,
1st in Offensive Reb, 1st in defensive rebounds, 1st in total rebounds, 10th in blocks,
5th in ppg, 1st in EFF, 10th off rating, 4th defensive rating, 3rd off win shares, 2nd defensive win shares, 1st in total win shares

bench:
Ben Wallace is not eligible
T.Chandler: 8 ppg, 49.4 FG%, 67.3 FT%, 9.7 reb, 1.8 blocks
7th off rebound, 7th total rebounds, 10th reb per,

Sammy D: 10.5 ppg, 51.3 FG%, 70.7 FG%, 10.4 reb, 2.3 blocks
3rd off rebound, 7th in total reb, 3rd blocks, 9th reb per, 4th in blocks per,

[penbeast0]

Sorry Sam, you didn't have one posted either when some of us voted otherwise I probably would have given it to you. Maybe it's too much whining at work but I'm voting as much for writeups (which I use as a substitute for coaching and front office competence) as for player talent (which is at a high level on every team).

[Miller4ever]

^^Call me Mike Dunleavy.

[Warspite]

I'm not trying to convince anybody at this point. I acknowledge that this series is lost. I'm simply defending my case as some of you argued against me. I tried to convince you by doing my write-up, but I failed. I should've sticked to raw numbers and popular beliefs, that way I'd be less intriguing (or some might say ridiculous ).

Latrell Sprewell...flashy?

His rims, maybe.

in comparison to Shane Battier, hell yeah. the bottomline was that I think you were deceived by big names that Warriors have produced over their time in the NBA. most of them weren't as productive as it's believed. I've already shown in PC Board how Wilt impacted his teams. I also believe that Spree, Barry and some other Warriors are overrated, because they get away with being poor-efficiency players. so the point I was making is that Warriors had some great players in their history... but they weren't necessarily helping this franchise as much as you would guess.

My writeup if I was the Houston Rockets:

C: Im putting Hakeem on Wilt and letting my best def play Wilt. I believe Hakeem can lower Wilts EfF and with Hakeems offense he will make Wilt work hard on defense. Hakeem will also force Wilt to stay with him and thus lower his weakside help.

PF: Having Hakeem on WIlt will let Moses crash the boards and he can help double team Wilt in the post. Hes also only 24 yrs old and very agile and can attempt to play with the quicker more mobile 4s of the Warriors. Moses will try to draw fouls on Wilt after overprowering his defender and try to get off rebounds of Hakeem or kickout shooters misses.
SF: Rudy is a great mid range shooter and hes going to try to be effective coming off of screens set by Moses. I fully admit that udy is a def liability vs any Wariror but we should have better help def and I prefer to be beaten by jumpshooters.
SG Battier is my SG and hes going to matched up with Barry and Mullin and trying to not let either guy go off. hHis long range shooting will be valuable as we expect to draw double teams in teh post.
PG Steve Fancis is going to have his hands full with Hardaway but since he doesnt have to outplay him he only needs to fill his role and try to keep TOs down. His def game is to funnel his man into Hakeem or Moses.

In the end I believe the Rockets with there reb adv and by playing inside out instead of outside in will in 7 games where them down. It wont be easy and it wont pretty at times and the Warriors have great players who will singlhandedly win a game or 2 and there talent is truely impressive.

Key points of your writeup

1. Your off/def system and game plan.
2. Your strengths
3. How you minimise your weaknesses.
4. Being believable by useing modesty, not making outragious claims and not rubbing your oppents nose in it and moreimportantly giving credit and being a good sport.

Oh and know who your audience is: Im not going to be able to convince Penbeast that Bill Russell or Wes Unseld were liabilities or chokers. Im also not going to be able to convince Miller4ever that Reggie couldnt score because he had no left hand. Im also never going to convince Jordan23forever that Mj couldnt guard PGs.
The simple truth is that all those claims are true to some extant but the conclusions that are drawn from those claims are just hard to swallow because we have evidence that those shortcomings have been overcome.

[lorak]

Oh and know who your audience is: Im not going to be able to convince Penbeast that Bill Russell or Wes Unseld were liabilities or chokers. Im also not going to be able to convince Miller4ever that Reggie couldnt score because he had no left hand. Im also never going to convince Jordan23forever that Mj couldnt guard PGs.
The simple truth is that all those claims are true to some extant but the conclusions that are drawn from those claims are just hard to swallow because we have evidence that those shortcomings have been overcome.

Everybody who want to play in ATL leagues should read and memorize this

[Miller4ever]

Latrell Sprewell...flashy?

His rims, maybe.

in comparison to Shane Battier, hell yeah.

Dude...EVERYONE is flashy compared to Shane Battier.

[CellarDoor]

Latrell Sprewell...flashy?

His rims, maybe.

in comparison to Shane Battier, hell yeah.

Dude...EVERYONE is flashy compared to Shane Battier.

Ryan Bowen says hello.

[Miller4ever]

You know I shouldn't be taken literally.

[bastillon]

good post warspite.

if you look closely, I did mention all of those things except that Wilt is being guarded by Moses. I believe Hakeem is too aggressive on defense to play him, because he can foul out pretty quickly. Moses always was low foul player and his physical presence will prevent Wilt from getting deep post position and I'm not necessarily worried about him shooting fadeaway shots. Hakeem is also far better help defender than Moses, can disrupt the offense more as well as double down on Wilt and still recover to his man. not to mention weak side blocks on those finger rolls. that was a no-brainer to me. also, Hakeem's help D would be limited guarding Wilt.

1) fouls
2) Hakeem's help D
3) Moses and his physicality

as for the "Rudy shooting off screens", I don't see him getting any touches with Jamison on 30 PPG scorers in Hakeem/Moses. it's like (hypothetically) Kobe Bryant shooting fadeaway 3s in the 2000 finals when he has Rick Smits guarding freaking Shaq. you're looking for the most favorable matchup and it doesn't go any better than Jamison on Dream.

[Warspite]

good post warspite.

if you look closely, I did mention all of those things except that Wilt is being guarded by Moses. I believe Hakeem is too aggressive on defense to play him, because he can foul out pretty quickly. Moses always was low foul player and his physical presence will prevent Wilt from getting deep post position and I'm not necessarily worried about him shooting fadeaway shots. Hakeem is also far better help defender than Moses, can disrupt the offense more as well as double down on Wilt and still recover to his man. not to mention weak side blocks on those finger rolls. that was a no-brainer to me. also, Hakeem's help D would be limited guarding Wilt.

1) fouls
2) Hakeem's help D
3) Moses and his physicality

as for the "Rudy shooting off screens", I don't see him getting any touches with Jamison on 30 PPG scorers in Hakeem/Moses. it's like (hypothetically) Kobe Bryant shooting fadeaway 3s in the 2000 finals when he has Rick Smits guarding freaking Shaq. you're looking for the most favorable matchup and it doesn't go any better than Jamison on Dream.

So your saying that if Wilt has a great game you lose? the team that gets fancy and uses gimmicks is the one that is the underdog. Why not just go mano a mona and let chips fall where they may. Your running the risk of giving up all your advs on the boards by gaurding Wilt with the smaller Moses. Worse your taking Moses rebounding away and forceing Hakeem to be your primary reboudner and his reb rate is only 15 which is smaller than my PF and not much better than any bench player i have. It just makes more sense to put your best defender on WIlt and let your best rebounder be free to get rebounds. Hakeems biggest weakness is rebounding and Moses biggest weakness is def and you have Hakeem competing for rebounds and Moses having to play def on WIlt. I
I understand your theory but it just shouts either overconfidence or weakness that your trying to hide Hakeem becuase of a weakness.