82-89 Keeper League Playoffs (START JUDGING pg. 6)

[Snakebites]

Sam Bone: 2-0
Luke: 1-1
MJ: 0-2

Well, this was a tough call. I had admittedly sold luke's team a bit short but he's got a fundamental team I could see giving Sam Bone's team some trouble. Ultimately I felt Sam Bone's team had a stronger veteran presence and enough depth to get them out of this round.

Miller: 2-0
Cellar: 1-1
Kees: 0-2

Kees is building for the future, and I think his team will be phenomenal in the next era with the right first round pick. Unfortunately, he's up against two strong current era teams. The matchup of Miller and Cellar is one that I waffled back and fourth on while reading the writeups, but ultimately I think I'm going with my initial instinct on this one. Cellar has the front court edge defensively but I like Miller's team more on the perimeter both offensively and defensively, and also like his depth. Looking at the matchups I'm not seeing any glaring issues for Miller's team that weren't sufficiently addressed.

Extremely tough call, but I give Miller the nod.

BI: 1-0,
War: 1-0
Bryant: 0-2

I need more time to evaluate the War/BI matchup.

[Miller4ever]

1. SamBone
2. lukekarts
3. MJallday59

1. Snakebites
2. RR9
3. TMAC (despite pulling out all the stops in his writeups...)

1. Warspite
2. BlackIce
3. bryant08

War/BlackIce was by far the hardest call for me.

[lukekarts]

1. Snake
2. RR9
3. TMac

1. Ice
2. Warspite
3. Bryant

1. Cellar
2. Miller
3. Kees

[CellarDoor]

Man, that Ice/Warspite match-up is crucial. Glad I got my vote out of the way before it decided anything

[Snakebites]

Yeah ****.

I'm still not sure about it.

[bryant08]

1. Snake
2. RR9
3. TMac

1. Cellar
2. Miller
3. Kees

[penbeast0]

Sent: Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:23 pm
From: TMACFORMVP
To: penbeast0

Actually, if it helps, almost every series is decided, except one.

The matchup between Warspite and BlackIce.

Era (81-82 to 88-89) - ONE YEAR PEAK.

PG - Magic / MRR
SG - Ellis / Birdsong
SF - King / Lewis
PF - T. Robinson / Willis
Cc - Daugherty / Chambers

v.

PG - DJ/ M.Jackson
SG - Ritchmond/World B. Free
SF: Dr. J/Aguirre
PF: Bird/C. Jones
Cc: Laimbeer/ Ruland

Wonderful offensive teams, not so wonderful defense.

Big man scoring -- Daugherty was very efficient and an excellent passer out of the post, Truck was athletic and at his peak was a nice scorer too. Willis was okay and Chambers very athletic, sort of like a slender Blake Griffin type. Plenty of good scoring here. Facing them is Larry Bird who has a big advantage over anyone. Laimbeer is adequate though not as much an offensive threat as his opponents and Ruland was outstanding except for his nasty turnover rates while Caldwell Jones by this time provided very little offense. Still, have to give it to Larry Bird's side especially with all the gunners from the outside in this game. Edge -- BlackIce

Wing/Point scoring -- Again, Warspite has a ton of offensive talent. Primary is of course Magic who can create, post, or score efficiently from the midrange and is the arguably greatest facilitator ever. Ellis gives great outside shooting while King gives the team another offensive threat. BlackIce has Erving who has both the inside and the outside game to match up with King, but can't match up at guard where Richmond is athletic and talented but DJ is neither particularly efficient nor particularly creative in this level of company. Edge -- Warspite

Playmaking -- Magic v. DJ is a huge advantage for Warspite; Bird v. Truck a huge swing back the other way. Daughterty has the edge at center, Erving on the wing, neither two guard is going to be more than a finisher. Both have more than enough playmaking and some to spare, a slight edge to Warspite.

Rebounding -- Pretty even, BlackIce's team's frontline rebounds more but is balanced by War's backline; again, a small edge at best to BlackIce.

Defense -- neither team is impressive at this level. War has zero good defenders starting though and BlackIce at least has Laimbeer and DJ with Erving being pretty decent at times. Clear edge BlackIce

Depth -- A bit odd to see Chambers listed at center (and Willis at forward). Richardson, if his nose is clean, is the biggest difference maker off the benches although there are about 4 guys with the talent to be a primary go to scorer. Slight edge Warspite.

Intangibles -- Magic was wonderful at pulling teams together, but a lot of me first gunners for him to work on. On the other hand, BlackIce has World B Free and Mark Aquirre but his blend of lesser scorers and defenders should pull together more as a team. Edge BlackIce

Although War has great offense, I just don't think his team is going to be able to pull it together at the other end unless there is a truly great Phil Jackson / Pat Riley / Larry Brown type coach whle BlackIce's team seems built to play well at both ends although they are missing the big post scorer/defender.

VOTE: BlackIce

[Snakebites]

I feel like I'm splitting hairs even trying to vote on this matchup.

I'm in agreement with Penbeast's general breakdown though there is still something that holds me back as far as voting. I think War's team has a sense of poetry and unique chemistry that might make it a slightly better overall team, but looking at the individual matchups I see a few things that work in BI's favor.

1) The defenders BI does have match up against the major cogs in the offense. DJ didn't always hurt Magic (who did?) but he certainly demonstrated an ability to do so which should prove useful. Erving won't be around to help but I anticipate him at least making King work hard for his points, and certainly giving him all he can handle on the other end of the court. I'm not seeing a counterpart on the opposite side to the Bird/Erving duo, and think they have huge series.

2) I see a little bit more physical toughness on BI's team. Laimbeer may not have been a great shot blocker or post player but he was certainly a player willing to tough it out when need be. And of course Ruland brought a muscular presence around the basket as well, and this is something I think, if War's team lacks anything, its that.

Overall, I see enough things in this individual matchup to sway it in the direction of BI. Thus, with GREAT difficulty, I think I need to vote that way. BI in 7 games, with the last few games all going right down to the wire.

One of the toughest calls I've had to make, and I feel like I'm making it with the absolute smallest of dividers.

[BlackIce]

Snakebites 2-0
RR9 1-1
TMac0-2

CD 2-0
Miller 1-1
Keys 0-2

SamBone 2-0
Luke 1-1
MJ 0-2

[TMACFORMVP]

BlackIce v. Warspite
Honestly, this is the main reason I haven't voted yet. It would be a Magic v. Bird series that is the toughest to judge. I'd like to say beforehand, I thought Warspite's writeup was fantastic - he understands his strengths and brings up a good point about negating Erving's weakside defense. I look at two primary offensive teams; and I think Warspite has the better offense. But what really concerns me is the complete lack of defense. Aside from Ray Richardson off the bench, everyone looks to me as an average to slightly below average defender at their position. I don't think DJ will do much to contain Magic, despite the "Tragic" nickname he acquired. His stats against DJ were gaudy - but DJ will certainly make him work far more than I believe Truck will make Bird work. And honestly, I don't know what other alternatives Warspite has as most of his bench players don't have the versatility to defend Bird adequately either.

I think Dr. J's man defense is a little overstated, and won't do too much to stop King. I was watching a little bit of that playoff series against the Pistons in the year War chose, and King was absolutely ridiculous. I actually think the gap here is small, but Erving should have his way as well on the offensive end while contributing more in other facets of the game. Ellis and Richmond will go at it, and with Ellis being the better player - he likely gets the best of that matchup. I like BI's big men more, and I like War's perimeter play more.

I think what makes this matchup so tough is that some of the facets are clear. What I mean by this is, that BI has the better individual defenders on his team, while Warspite has the better offense. But when you dig into the matchup, the question becomes how much an impact will DJ have on Magic, and Erving have on King. When you're talking about that sort of caliber of players -- it's impossible to say one will shut down the other. In the case of Magic, and King, especially working together, I'd think they still have large impact on the series. So if BI's defenders won't do much, the answer would be in favor for Warspite, since he has the better offense. But when you think about it, team defense is probably one of the more underlooked, yet most important aspects of defense. I don't know how much they'll limit their counterparts, but it could be far worse than DJ/Erving, and the overall defensive scheme of Laimbeer/Ruland sort in the paint, along with DJ/Erving/Bird all being good team defenders - as a whole, the defensive unit should work rather well despite a legitimate shot blocker (aside from Caldwell, but he's not a large factor in this series).

So the true question becomes, can BI score enough points, and get just enough stops to win this series. Ultimately, I think that is the case, Bird and Erving should have large series, Richmond, DJ, while not nearly as good as their counterparts will have good series. Aguirre off the bench, and Ruland provide more offensive punch as well.

I think ultimately, both are offensive minded teams, but BI's team has the better balance in terms of incorporating a defense within an elite offense. Magic was the best offensive anchor there is, but Bird is arguably the second guy on that list in terms of overall offensive impact. I kind of "like" War's team a little more (over the recent past couple of days, but keep flip flopping), but I think BI's matchups are slightly better, and thus make him come out on top. Bird attempts the jump-shot, the ref blows his whistle with barely any contact (slight enough to change the shot a bit), thus reward Bird two FT's to win the game (tied), and sinks em both.

Vote: BlackIce

God damn, that was tough.


Miller4ever v. CellarDoor
This is a cray tough matchup. Initially on paper, I thought Cellar would have the advantage here, but Miller's writeup did a fantastic job of convincing me he has the better rebounding squad, with ridiculous efficiency, and no defensive holes in the starting lineup. Jordan is probably the best player in the series as well (pre championship Jordan is actually underrated, IMO). This is a younger Hakeem, but he's still very good and should dominate. But I think Parish in this comparison is slightly underrated (20/10 sort with good D on a championship level team is nothing to scoff at). I think upfront we have Cellar's team being better defensively, but on the perimeter, that's a clear edge towards Miller's. Offensively, I think the pieces are in favor of Cellar's, but I'm not sure about McMillian as a full fledged starter. Gervin/Hakeem are the higher scoring duo than Jordan/Parish (though not as much it would be in general), but I kind of like McCray more in this setting than Nate.. and Lever, Buck, and Dantley aren't too far off Marques, Nance, and Sleepy.

I think in building a team, my philosophy lines more within Cellar's thinking, with a slightly more attractive team on paper, but I'll give a vote to Miller, a very realistic sort team with terrific defense, efficiency, rebounding, and the best player in the series. Extremely tough.

Vote: Miller4ever

I agree with the rest of the consensus.

[TMACFORMVP]

Everyone has at least a two vote lead at this point; I think people are a bit anxious to move forward as well. We'll start the 2nd round, matchups are as follows:

CellarDoor v. BlackIce
Snakebites v. SamBone

[CellarDoor]

At least going to get my rotations out here...

Sleepy(32)/Smith(16)
Gervin(38)/Pressey(10)
Pressey(28)/Johnson(20)
Nance(32)/Lucas(16)
Olajuwon(40)/Lucas(8)

BI:
PG: Dennis Johnson/Mark Jackson
SG Mitch Ritchmond/World B. Free
SF: Julius Erving/Mark AguirreGerv
PF: Larry Bird/Caldwell Jones
Cc: Bill Laimbeer/Jeff Ruland

The thing about Laimbeer in the season BI chose, which is evident in the stats: he wasn’t the shooter/wasn’t as willing a shooter as he would become. In the selected season he took .2 3s a game. We also have an idea of how far from the basket he was by the number of rebounds he was getting. Laimbeer wasn’t a talented enough guy and didn’t have a good enough nose for the ball to pull 13 boards down while camping away from the basket. He and Hakeem match up statistically pretty similarly in the rebounding department , but I doubt BI will try to sell you on Laimbeer as being able to slow Hakeem. If Ruland manages to come in at all against Hakeem BI will be at an extreme disadvantage. You put the turnover happy Ruland up against Hakeem, one of the greatest at forcing turnovers at the pivot ever, and it’s a recipe for disaster.
At PG BI’s team has Dennis Johnson, one of my favorites to learn about, and Mark Jackson. To the degree that Jackson plays, he and Kenny are on a similar level in their early years while doing it in different ways. I have the advantage in penetration and efficiency along with speed and quickness at PG while he’s got the nod defensively. Normally I’d say that with the similar numbers everyone’s sporting BI’s team would have the advantage, but I the foot speed is going to be an issue for BI constantly. His PGs don’t have it while mine do. DJ is an amazing defender who’s most noted for defending Magic Johnson, but Sleepy’s speed and hesitation dribbles should keep him off balance and allow us to play this to a draw, and maybe even a slight win depending on how much time each guy spends with the ball.

At the wings BI has a rookie Richmond and past prime but by no means useless Dr J. Looking at the raw numbers, Mitch was basically in his prime his first season. When we move past them though we notice a few things: Richmond didn’t find himself behind the 3pt arc often (1.1/g) His offensive rebounding numbers support the fact that he spent more time on ball or cutting to the basket. Additionally, in the playoffs that year he, predictably for a rookie, saw a decline in his numbers. Tasked with guarding Gervin and having to watch for Hakeem/Nance I think he’ll find himself at a disadvantage clearly. Additionally, with the forwards taking so much time with the ball, he’s not going to see the output he sees now, and without that 3pt game being his comfort zone as it became later, he’ll be marginalized. Down at SF you’ve got Erving. There’s no way around it, he was an amazing player. I’ve got Pressey in specifically to guard him and to use his ballhandling to put pressure on Erving to not play as much help D. If Erving gets wandering eyes and begins moving off ball to double Hakeem or put extra pressure on Gervin/Sleepy, we can kick it back to Pressey and trust him to put BI’s defense on tilt. The only solace in this match-up is that I have a plus defender for him, and he isn’t in his prime to put up any completely ridiculous numbers.

At power forward lies BI’s best player: Larry Legend. He’ll get his. He’ll help others get theirs. He’s the MVP. BI is doing exactly what I did in an earlier game rolling with Larry at PF on defense, but I think having him specifically at the 4 on offense will be a hindrance to him. He wasn’t particularly quick footed or known for penetration, and you’re enabling a bigger player to body him up when he tries to run offense through the post. Nance was also one of the better shot blockers you’ll ever find guarding Larry on defense, so his timing may disrupt/alter some shots. On offense Nance will continue to do his thing. Larry was a good team defender and known for making rotations and being in position. Considering that, I expect Larry will be trying to get in the way of the bigger threats allowing the very capable Nance to get free for some putbacks. He’s my 4thish option. That’s all I want from him.

At Center I’ve got Hakeem. A defensive terror with an offensive game BI is underrating. Laimbeer was a good physical defender, but he’s outmatched. Additionally, I noticed on BI’s roster page he’s trying to sell Laimbeer as a floor spacer. In the selected season, that’s erroneous. You can look at Laimbeer’s stats in both 3pt attempts, makes, and percentage as well as rebounds/rebound rates and tell that he wasn’t comfortable too far from the basket at this stage in his career, so while he will likely keep up with Hakeem on the boards (the two sported similar numbers in rebounds all around), he won’t find himself getting Hakeem too far from the paint. If Laimbeer wants to shoot elbow jumpers or 3s at his current percentage, we’ll consider that a win over not having Hakeem forcing TOs and doubling Bird/Erving on their penetration.

General points: BI’s team is great, but there’s a few key points:
help defense—Other than Erving, BI doesn’t have it anywhere, and he needs it, and Erving is slowing down and his help D isn’t at it’s apex here.
Foot speed- Again, BI doesn’t have it anywhere. DJ isn’t faster than Sleepy who can penetrate on about anyone, Richmond was underrated in athleticism, but (cheating and reading his write-up) will be at a speed disadvantage himself, and Bird and Laimbeer (and Ruland, Jackson, English) all were not quick. Nance was very quick at his position, Hakeem was a terror, and Gervin wasn’t a slouch. With the lack of help D and the number of ball-handlers I have capable of doing damage, he’s going to be on tilt more than he wants to be.
Jeff Ruland- the guy is a turnover machine facing Hakeem Olajuwon. He’s going to be a huge liability in there in this match-up.
Dennis Johnson- He chose the wrong season, IMO. This DJ was a high scoring combo guard averaging only 5 assists. Not the DJ who fit seamlessly in with the Celtics high scoring team as a near true PG. With Erving and Bird dominating the ball DJ is going to find himself at a loss for what to do at this stage in his career.
I’ll address BI’s write-up in a rebuttal tonight/tomorrow.

[SamBone]

THE BONED SAMUELS

DEFENSE
Moses Malone: All Defensive (1st team) ranked 2nd in Def win shares and
4th in Defensive rating
Bobby Jones: All Defensive (1st team)
Mo Cheeks: All Defensive (1st team)
Jack Sikma: All Defensive (2nd team) ranked 1st in Def win shares and
1st in Defensive rating (would have been DPOY if they had it then)
Mark Eaton: DPOY and All Defenive (1st team)
Quinn Buckner: All Defensive (2nd team)
Karl Malone: ranked 3rd in DEF rating and 2nd in DEF win shares

- REBOUNDING

When Riley was coach of the LA Lakers, he used to tell his players in the postseason, "No rebounds, no rings. His philosophy was simple: If you don't crash the boards and the opponent outrebounds you, you are not likely to go anywhere except home for an early vacation.

I could not agree with that more, and that is how this team is built! The center piece of my team is Moses Malone, who in his selected season, is the NBA Rebounding King (3rd straight season and 4th in 5 year span). Moses was a beast on the glass (15.3 per) and led the league in both offensive and defensive boards.

He is paired with another great rebounder in Karl Malone (10.7 per in selected season ranked 5th in NBA). Backing up both those guys will be Jack Sikma (12.7 per in selected season) who ranked 2nd in NBA in rebounds (behind only Moses) and 1st in defensive rebounds in his selected season.

Both of my SF’s, Bobby Jones (5.2 per) and Alex English (7.3 per) were great rebounders for their positions, as was Quinn Buckner (4.2)

Plus I have BIG Mark Eaton (11.3 per in selected season who also led league in defensive rebounds) that can be called on if needed.

This group may be the best rebounding team in the game, and we all know that teams that out rebound their opponent usually beat their opponent!

- SHOT BLOCKING
Another aspect of my defense is shot blocking. The great shot blocking that my team offers will really create problems for my opponents. Moses (2 per), Sikma (1.3), Eaton(5.6), Bobby Jones (1.5), English (1.5), and Karl Malone (.9) all will create problems for the person they are guarding or anyone that attempts to take the ball inside.

- STEALS
Playing the passing lanes is also something that is needed to be a good defensive team. My back court is led Mo Cheeks (2.5 per and was 2nd in NBA), Gus Williams (2.2 per and ranked 7th), and Quinn Buckner (2.9 per was 4th). Playing next to them will be Chris Mullin, who may not of been the best man defender, but he had some of the quickest hands in the game and always was good at getting steals (1.9), Bobby Jones (1.3), English (1.4), plus my BIGS like Karl Malone (1.8 ), Moses (1.1), and Sikma (1.2).

OFFENSE
Just like my Defense, my team is also led by Moses Malone (24.5 ppg, .501 FG%) on offense. My offense is build around two great post players in the Malone’s (Moses and Karl). Moses is simply a beast who looked like a man playing against boys in his prime. Moses was so unstoppable that people would often say he missed shots on purpose (.501 FG% in elected season) just to pad his offensive rebounding stats (led the league in selected season). That just shows how dominating the man was. Add to that that in his selected season he was 1st in EFF rating

His offensive side kick is his brother from a different mother, Karl Malone (29.1 ppg, .519 FG%). “The Mailman” may be the best power forward to ever play in the NBA. The man was simply a beast. His deadly mid range jumper and passing, paired next to Moses’ post game make this pair deadly. Karl was ranked 5th in EFF rating.

Our other offensive weapon in our starting lineup is Chris Mullin (20.2 ppg, .508 FG%, .351 3pt%,) who’s range will offer spacing for our BIGS to work, and if he is left open, Mullin will kill you. Mullin was also a great passer (4.8 assts) so rotating the ball for reposts will really help keeping our offense running smooth.

Our floor general is Mo Cheeks (15.4 ppg, 9.2 asst, .537 FG%). Besides being a stud defensively, Mo was always able to keep “star player” happy by distributing the ball. Besides finishing 4th in the league in assists, Mo, who was not known for his offense, had the 10th best offensive rating and was ranked 8th in Offensive Win shares.

Filling out our starting unit, is Bobby Jones (14.4 ppg, .564 FG%,). Bobby will not see many touches, but when he does touch the ball, he is almost automatic (Ranked 8th in FG%, 6th in TS%)

We have the “NBA Scoring King” as our 6th man in Alex English (28.4 ppg, .516 FG%). He will be used as our instant offense who besides being very efficient (2nd in EFF) he also was a solid passer (4.8 assts)

The bench rotation is rounded out with Gus Williams (23.4 ppg) and a low post stud with range in Jack Sikma (19.6 ppg)

-FREE THROWS
Another strength that my team has, is that all my guys get to the line at a very high rate. Getting my opposition in foul trouble and getting free shots will be another added bonus

Moses: 1st in foul shots made (.761 FT%)
Mailman: 1st in foul shots made (.766 FT%)
English: 8th in foul shots made (.829 FT%)
Sikma: 8th in foul shots made (.855 FT%)
Mullin: (.885 FT%)
Bobby Jones: (.790 FT%)
Mo: (.842 FT%)

-OFFENSIVE REBOUNDS
As much as I stressed the importance of rebounding on defense, Offensive rebounds kill teams and make offense’s that much better. My team is filled with great offensive rebounders. These 2nd chance points will lead to many many easy buckets.

Moses: 1st in Offensive rebounds
English: 8th in offensive rebounds
Mailman: 13th in Offensive rebounds:
Sikma: 16th in Offensive rebounds

Individual Matchups

PG: Mo Cheeks '86 (28) / Gus Williams '82 (20)
SG: Chris Mullin '88 (28) / Quinn Buckner '82 (15) / Gus Williams (5)
SF: Bobby Jones '82 (24) / Alex English '83 (24)
PF: Karl Malone '89 (35) / Jack Sikma '82 (13)
C: Moses Malone '83 (36) / Jack Sikma '82 (12) / Mark Eaton '85
vs
PG: Isiah Thomas ‘85 / Michael Cooper ‘88
SG: Sidney Moncrief ‘83 / Michael Cooper ‘88
SF: Jamal Wilkes ‘ ? / Eddie Johnson ‘ ?
PF: Dan Roundfield ’82 / Roy Tarpley ’88
C: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar ’82 / Roy Tarpley ‘88

I gotta start by saying that Snake, as always, has built a great team. I just believe that I may be the worst team for him to play in this game simply because of matchups. In the selected seasons, Moses dominated KAJ. Isiah will be matched up with Cheeks who held his own guarding Isiah. Mo should continue to contain Zeke, just like he did in the 8 matchups during the selected seasons. Again, Snake has a great team, I just believe my team is the one team that he can not defend and exploit!

MOSES ’83 vs KAJ ‘82

Well before I even start to break this down, lets go back to the 1983 NBA Finals when these two guys matched up, and regular season MVP Moses Malone (who predicted a sweep) completely dominated Mr. Jabbar on his way to earning the FINALS MVP.

From an article I found about that season……

in the 1983 NBA Finals. Malone averaged 26.0 points and 15.8 rebounds in 13 postseason games and was named Most Valuable Player of the Finals.
Malone outplayed and outrebounded Abdul-Jabbar, 72-30, in the series. "Let's not make believe," 76ers Head Coach Billy Cunningham said. "The difference from last year was Moses."

When KAJ and the Lakers beat the Sixers in the ’82 Finals, Moses was in Houston winning another MVP award.

Prime Moses is simply is too much for the this KAJ to handle on either end of the court!

Isiah ‘85 vs Cheeks ‘86

They matched up 8 times during 1985 and 1986 (our 2 selected seaons)

Zeke averaged:
37 min, 19.6 ppg (.496 FG%), 11.25 asst, 2.75 reb, 2.75 steals, 71% from line (22-31), 3.4 to’s,, 4 PF’s (fouling out twice)

Mo averaged:
38 min, 16.8 ppg (.538 FG%), 9.13 asst, 3.13 reb, 2.25 steals, 81% from line (33-41), 3.13 to’s, 2 PF’s (never fouling out)

These 2 guys really got at eachother, Mo did hold Zeke slightly below his scoring averges while often getting him in foul trouble (25% of the time fouling him out of the game). This allowed Mo to get to the line 10 more times then Isiah did. Mo also did record 5 blocks against Isiah where Isiah had none! Simply said, Mo was able to contain Isiah, were Isiah had trouble defending Mo, who was never known for his offense. At worse this matchup is a wash, if not a slight advantage to myself considering Mo was always able to get Isiah in foul trouble and taken out of the game. Also consider Mo is like my 7th option on offense and Zeke is the #1 on his. I like how this is looking

“Mailman” vs Roundfield
Dan was a hard working defensive PF that rebounded very well. In ’82 as one of Atlanta’s main options he has a solid stat line of 18.6 ppg, (.466 FG% and .527 TS%), pulled in 11.8 reb, and had a defensive rating of 100.2 (10th in league) and offensive rating of 106. All those are impressive numbers, but he is simply not in the same category as Karl Malone, even a young Mailman. In his 4th season, Karl put up an impressive 29.1 ppg,(.519 FG% and .592 TS%) pulled in 10.7 reb and had a defensive rating of 98.8 (3rd in league) and offensive rating of 115

Again, Dan is a very good player (he did finish below my backup Jack Sikma in almost every category in the same selected season), Karl is just too much for him to handle

Moncrief vs Bobby Jones
Not only was Squid a great defensive player, but he was a very efficient offensive player in his short prime as well. This is the one area that I will be switching up a little and I will try to use Bobby Jones to guard the Squid. I believe that the multi talented Bobby Jones can hang with the Squid. Bobby has the height and length advantage on Squid that should be able to keep him working hard to get his. Quinn Buckner (2nd team All Defensive) will also get some time guarding Squid.

Wilkes vs Mullin/Buckner
With using Bobby on Squid, this will force Mullin to defend Wilkes. I have no proble using my weakest defender to guard my opponents 5th option. I really don’t see Isiah, KAJ, Squid or even Roundfield allowing Jamaal to get enough looks to really make that big of an impact on the series. Mullin may not be gifted defensively, but he is a hard worker and gives max effort at all times, which in my opinion, makes you competent on D. Wilkes may have the advantage, but I guarantee he will have to work for it, if he is able to get the ball.

English vs Eddie Johnson
Scoring vs Scoring. I will admit that Eddie Johnson is very underrated in has career. The guy could score. I believe that he was the best NBA player to never make an All Star team. Eddie has some nice range, but on the other end of the court, he will struggle when matched against English. And since English will play a bigger role for me then Eddie will play for snake, I am ok with this

Sikma vs Tarpley
As a 3rd BIG, you can’t get much better then Tarpley who was a great rebounder off the bench in his short prime. That is unless you have BIG JACK SIKMA! I do believe that Jack will be a major factor when these guys are on the court together. Everything that Tarp does well, Jack did better (on the court that is  )

Gus Williams vs Cooper
These 2 combo guards are also going to get at eachother when they are on the court. Gus was a great offensive force and Coop was the defensive force.

[Snakebites]

I'm posting the early part of my writeup which includes my rotation, the rest will come. Please note the one small change in my rotation from the previous round at the small forward position.

Great and talented team I’m faced against here created by Sam Bone. As we will see, I firmly believe my team has all of the tools to exploit the limitations of Sam Bone’s team and come out of this series with a victory. First, the rotation:

C: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 36 (81-82)/Roy Tarpley 12 (87-88)
PF: Dan Roundfield 34 (81-82)/Roy Tarpley 14 (87-88)
SF: Eddie Johnson 24 (88-89)/Jamal Wilkes (81-82) 24
SG: Sidney Moncrief 36 (82-83)/Michael Cooper 12 (86-87)
PG: Isiah Thomas 38 (84-85)/Michael Cooper 10 (86-87)

If it ain’t broke don’t fix it. The one notable change here is the swapping of Eddie Johnson and Jamal Wilkes as starter and bench player. As we will see, this lineup does an exemplary job addressing the issues that will come up as facing Sam Bone’s team.

FRONT COURT DEFENSE:
Firstly, when looking at a matchup, I look at what stands out about an opponent and how I might best counteract the issues it represents. In this case, the starting front court is what stands out in particular. Karl and Moses Malone are certainly an imposingly talented duo, but I posit here that their fit will create problems for Sam Bone in this matchup. The issue here is as follows:

1) Karl Malone became known later in his career for an amazing mid range game that so nicely complemented his low post moves, and it is this that made him considered among the best power forwards of all time. This game, however, did not develop until after the 80s. The Karl Malone in this era did most of his work in the paint. Moses Malone, of course, also works in the paint nearly exclusively. Thus, we have a situation where the two primary offensive threats who will want the lion’s share of shots in this offense both want the ball in roughly the same place, making for a less dynamic overall offense and poor spacing. This is helped some by the presence of Jack Sikma, but the issue remains serious in the roughly half of the game in which he is not playing. This is further made worse by another issue:

2) Karl Malone’s much respected passing game had not developed yet either. This is made worse by the fact that Moses Malone averaged fewer than 2 assists per game and was known, despite his other assets, as one of the worst passers in the entire league. All in all, in selected years, these players combined to average 4.2 assists per game while also averaging just over 7 turnovers. Thus, when they are on the floor together, the ball will go down to them a lot, and will rarely move once it gets there, except, on occasion, to the other team.

3) Weakside defense. While Sam Bone will happily point to the defensive accolades of Sikma and the Malones, they all gained their accolades as MAN defenders, not weakside ones. Given the potency of my perimeter attack (described later), this relative lack of weakside help will become severely problematic.

So what does all of this mean? Well, it means that Karl Malone and Moses Malone are a far less than optimal fit in this era. Taken together they bring a lack of midrange shooting and passing. Though Sikma does help with this somewhat, the fundamental lack of fit both offensively and defensively from our opponents’ two best players is a fundamental issue. Add to that the fact that Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Dan Roundfield are both elite defenders in their own right (and bring something to the table as weakside helpers as well) and you have a dynamic where I feel my bigs match up quite well with those of my opponent despite my opponent having more individual talent in that regard. We will be able to sufficiently limit this most critical part of our opponents offensive attack by using our own defenders coupled with some fundamental flaws in how these two players play together.

Now, on to PERIMETER DEFENSE:

In addition to an elite front court defense, our perimeter defense features a pair of defensive players of the year. Given our opponents most impactful players have already been addressed in the front court matchup, we feel our perimeter defense will be more than adequate. Moncrief had the length to easily match up against this version of Chris Mullin and be a rough matchup for him. This version of Mullin hadn’t quite developed the outside shooting he is most often noted for, and was a supporting player in the Warriors offense. I see no reason to believe he will be a major worry. Neither Cheeks nor Bobby Jones are extremely dangerous on offense, but nonetheless Cheeks will be checked by Isiah Thomas, who will be able to generate turnovers with his well noted steals abilities. Alex English’s role in this offense really hasn’t been made particularly clear, as he was mainly a scorer and will be playing next to a pair of very high scoring front court players, but he will have a rock solid defender in Jamal Wilkes on him during his entire time.

Defensive player Michael Cooper will help out on any perimeter player that is giving us trouble, and he can guard anyone from Gus Williams all the way up to Alex English if need be. He was a versatile defender who will be instrumental in disrupting the perimeter offense.

Overall, our simply exceptional perimeter defense and great help defense up front will disrupt the starting point of Sam Bone’s attack and limit his scorers, who are already not terribly intimidating.

OFFENSE: We feel our offense boasts a balance and versatility that is somewhat lacking in our opponents. Though Mo Cheeks was a rock solid defender at point guard, looking at the rather substantial matchup history here, there simply is nothing to support the notion that he actually limited Isiah much at all. Isiah still averages 20 points and nearly 10 assists against Mo Cheeks, with roughly similar efficiency numbers.

We should also bear in mind that Isiah averaged roughly 22/14 in the selected season on actually rather impressive efficiency, and in the playoffs he proved he could take command of an offense as a scorer when needed, shooting an amazing 50% from the field in 9 games. Our offense begins with our point guard, and he easily outstrips our opponent.

Sidney Moncrief was nothing to sniff at either. Togther with Isiah, this is a backcourt that could pass, shoot from the mid range, and slash to the basket with devastating effect. Simply put, they grossly overmatch Cheeks and Mullin in just about every conceivable way. In this case, the relative lack of weakside defense from Sam Bone’s front court, coupled with the spacing provided by the mid range game of Dan Rounfield and 3 point shooting of Cooper and Johnson, will mean both Isiah and Moncrief will have the opportunity to break down the perimeter defense and slash into the paint for fast points.

I notice my opponent, as I suspected he might, is opting to put Bobby Jones on Sidney Moncrief rather than risking Moncrief tearing apart Chris Mullin. While an interesting move, it may prove to do more harm than good. Jones will probably do a better job than Mullin would as a versatile defender, but this takes so much away from Jones’ game as a whole. He was a guy who got involved in the general defense as a help defender and disrupted the general flow of the offense. By putting him on a dangerous opposing guard (he mostly guarded opposing forwards and centers), you are taking away from his role as a team defender, leaving a team already in need of weakside defense without its best contributor in that regard (or at the very least marginalized in that respect). It’s a lose lose situation for Sam Bone whoever he puts on Moncrief, and Moncrief could still well have a great series. There isn’t any evidence I’ve found that Jones ever guarded Moncrief in their actual matchups together, though I’d be inclined to believe the speedy Moncrief would be great challenge for the scrappy defender.

Isiah and Moncrief were also exceptional at getting to the free throw line, and this adds another dimension to our offense. Both of these players made All NBA first teams in their chosen seasons. NONE of Sam Bone’s perimeter players will come anywhere near matching the devastating impact my dynamic backcourt duo will have, and it simply won’t be close to be perfectly honest.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. The man needs no introduction. I would posit that he is a more talented post scorer than the face-to-the-basket Moses Malone, and also had more range to his game as well. Though Sam Bone will surely point to Moses’s invidual triumph (though not team triumph) over Kareem as a rebounder, left out of that discussion is the reality that Kareem also got pretty much whatever he wanted offensively in that series and despite rebounding difficulties was still a MAJOR player in that series. He is also the superior defender and shotblocker and will have a comparable impact on the series.

Dan Rounfield is a role player in this offense, and was noted for a terrific 18 foot jump shot. His presence will give both Kareem and our guards more room to operate down low while taking Malone away from the paint for rebounds. Roy Tarpley was a do-it-all athletic type big man who was often noted for playing like a guard. His versatile and quick offensive game should give Sikma all he can handle.

Our small forwards fill valuable roles in our offense as well. Eddie Johnson is a 41% three point shooter who averaged over 1 make per game and 22 points per game in the selected year. He is a shooter will, much like Cooper when in the game, will require a defender to check him on the perimeter at all times and help open up the offense for everyone else. Wilkes is an efficient opportunistic scorer proven to be able to play in a high powered offense with a variety of tools including a nice post game and a quirky but nonetheless effective midrange jumpshot. He was also a player known to step up big in the playoffs. He’s got a role similar to English’s in this game but is better adapted to playing that role.

BIG PICTURE: Sam Bone’s team reminds me of the Sixer teams of the 1980s. Cheeks, Jones, and of course Moses will make that comparision inevitable. They also have a high scoring forward to round out the nucleus of the team. The difference? Malone provides neither the weakside defense nor the ability to play off the ball that Erving does, and, as harped on earlier, gets the ball in the same place that Moses does. The Malone’s will produce, but they will do so somewhat less than optimally because of their similar shot location and poor passing/turnover ratio. This, coupled with strong front court defense from my team will limit his front court much more than vice versa. Thus, Malone is a somewhat weaker fit than Erving was, and even those teams, many argue, underachieved in their day.

On top of that, looking at the perimeter matchups I see absolutely no other conclusion other than that my perimeter will devastate in this game. Isiah and Moncrief will take whatever the opponent’s defense gives them, because that is their reputation, and once they get past their men (Isiah has a proven track record against Cheeks and there is no evidence to suggest the Sixers ever tried to put Jones on the speedy Moncrief) they should be able to devastate in paint or mid range. The passing/playmaking from my backcourt trio is also clearly superior to our opponents.

I look at Sam Bone’s team and also I see weak spacing overall. Mullin hadn’t yet developed a consistent 3 point shot (nor had anyone on their team), and the Malones clog up the paint on offense. My team, on the other hand, has two great 3 point shooters to help spread the floor and a nice complementary pairing in the front court that should enhance spacing. Certainly a guy like Sikma helps, but at 25 mpg, only to a point. Overall, Sam Bone’s defense, though strong in individual talent, will not be able to operate as effectively as my team will defensively due to the contrast in spacing.

Overall, I think my team is more balanced with great strength both on the perimeter and up front, and I think my defense matches up extremely well with Sam Bone’s overall attack. I furthermore think the roles on my team are simply much more clearly defined and organized. I think we will be able to exploit the holes of his team and our balance and versatility on both ends of the floor will serve as well as we carry home the victory.

[BlackIce]

Here is my rotation.

PG: Dennis Johnson(38)/Mark Jackson (10)
SG Mitch Ritchmond(36)/Mark Aguirre(12)
SF: Julius Erving(38)/Mark Aguirre(10)
PF: Larry Bird(40)/Jeff Ruland(8)
Cc: Bill Laimbeer(36)/Jeff Ruland(12)


vs.

Sleepy(32)/Smith(16)
Gervin(38)/Pressey(10)
Pressey(28)/Johnson(20)
Nance(32)/Lucas(16)
Olajuwon(40)/Lucas(8)

First off it's been a long time since I've faced Cellar, a worthy opponent and one that I will enjoy trying to beat!


Lets starting with an overview. We have a huge passing advantage that I will get into in more detail and we have the team defense to contain Gervin and shutdown the offense surrounding Hakeem. Can he do it himself? I don't think so, not against Bird who is the superior player this era. Pressey nor Nance can do anything to hold Bird (stats to back that fact coming up). We have a comfortable rebounding advantage (remember Laimbeer is 13rpg, led the league in rebounding that year) and our forwards and guards are monster rebounders.

Defense: Like I said positional defense, cutting off angles, rotating to the correct spot, this is where my team thrives. We will have DJ covering Gervin.

Here is a quote I found:

Magic and George Gervin both said that he played them the toughest. If that’s not enough, Larry Bird said DJ was the best player he ever played with. “I still got 30 but it was a tough 30.” The Iceman once said.

DJ have great size for a guard and very often guarded SG's, his elite D gave Gervin a lot of trouble as you can see. Also on the other end Gervin has to guard someone, likely Ritchmond who like I've said time and time again is very underrated.

This leaves Ritchmond on Sleepy who is a good, not great PG in a game like this. More suited as a backup if anything, anyways none the less 19/10 is nothing to sneeze at. Still Ritchmond is a solid defender with the length and athleticism to keep up with Sleepy and contain his shots. Sleepy won't be the difference in this series. Moving to the small forward matchup Erving is my primary shot blocker and though I won't make the mistake of underrating a good defensive player and playmaker in Pressey however he simply isn't on the same tier as Erving. He isn't a huge threat offensively allowing Erving to help a bit. He also gives up 2-3 inchs to Erving. Bird will take Nance. Nance isn't a big offensive threat as well, and Bird has 15 pounds on the guy according to BBR.com

This leaves Laimbeer on Hakeem who I concede will get his. Let us remember though, this is NOT the unstoppable animal that is 90's Hakeem. Laimbeer in the playoffs in my selected season put up 23/14 on 1 3 pointer made so he wll make Hakeem work. Still Hakeem is an elite player at this level though but I don't see the offense around him to really support him. Laimbeer was a good defensive player in his own right btw and will take Hakeem out of the post on offense, but more on that later.

So an overview of my defense; DJ, Erving, and Laimbeer are good to great man defenders. In addition to those 3, Bird is was a great team defender and always made the rotation. So you see even without a big shot blocking C in the middle I have a good defensive team.

Passing: My starting 1-4 doesn't have a player that averages less then 4 assists with Bird at 7 and DJ at 5. We are an elite passing team with elite spacing. Ritchmond and Bird are good 3 point shooters and DJ and Erving are excellent mid-range shooters.

Rebounding: Laimbeer led the league in rebounding my selected year at 13, and did so while playing a perimeter based styles of play on offense. He was at 13rpg. Bird rebounded better then most big man at 10rpg and this allows me to play him at PF. Erving was one of the best rebounding forwards in the league at 7. Ritchmond same story, 6 rebounds and DJ at 5. We have the advantage here.

Offense: I'll start in the backcourt. DJ is a 20ppg guy, compare that to Sleepy's 19. So if DJ is an afterthought in my offense, surely Sleepy should be comparable on the other end. I have a feeling Cellar is going to play up Sleepy.

Here is a quote I found:

But there’s a reason they called him “Sleepy” — he had a reputation of drifting in games and only intermittently giving a crap. He always left you with the nagging feeling that he should have been better.

Anyways, at 6'4 with "rocket propelled legs" he should be able to score quite easily on Sleepy. Perhaps McMillian would have been the better fit here? Ritchmond will have his way with Gervin. A rock solid SG, Ritchmond was 22/6/4 and the rail thin Gervin will have trouble with the built Ritchmond.

Now I'm not sure who guards Bird (leaving aside Erving for a second).

Bird on Pressey in 20 games put up 23/9/5/1/1 on 49%

Bird on Nance in 20 games put up 26/8/8/2/1 on 53%

So either way Bird is going to do an unbelievable amount of damage in this series. I assume Pressey will guard Bird leaving Nance on Erving. Erving should dominant that matchup with his quickness advantage and put Nance in foul trouble early.

Laimbeer's job will be to space the floor. Get Hakeem out of the post and make it hard for him to play help defense. If he wants to sit in the paint, fine. Laimbeer will sink jumper after jumper. With the paint open I see Erving having a big series. Ruland off the bench will bang bodies with Hakeem and make him work.

You'll see a lot of pick and pop with Bird and Laimbeer and Erving and Bird with the ball in their hands creating plays with DJ playing off ball making Sleepy work.

To conclude, Cellar has built a great team but we are comparable defensively (I have a better defensive backcourt, he has a better defensive frontcourt), you could even say he has the advantage defensively. On offense though I'm on another planet imo. We have the perfect defender to contain Gervin, and outside of that Hakeem has no help. We have way more offensive weapons, and enough defensive smarts to pull it out in 7.

[SamBone]

REBUTTAL

1)Karl Malone became known later in his career for an amazing mid range game that so nicely complemented his low post moves, and it is this that made him considered among the best power forwards of all time. This game, however, did not develop until after the 80s. The Karl Malone in this era did most of his work in the paint. Moses Malone, of course, also works in the paint nearly exclusively. Thus, we have a situation where the two primary offensive threats who will want the lion’s share of shots in this offense both want the ball in roughly the same place, making for a less dynamic overall offense and poor spacing. This is helped some by the presence of Jack Sikma, but the issue remains serious in the roughly half of the game in which he is not playing. This is further made worse by another issue:

2)Karl Malone’s much respected passing game had not developed yet either. This is made worse by the fact that Moses Malone averaged fewer than 2 assists per game and was known, despite his other assets, as one of the worst passers in the entire league. All in all, in selected years, these players combined to average 4.2 assists per game while also averaging just over 7 turnovers. Thus, when they are on the floor together, the ball will go down to them a lot, and will rarely move once it gets there, except, on occasion, to the other team.

That’s pretty interesting, because when I looked up older footage of Mailman besides all the power dunks and fastbreak dunks, there were a ton of baseline jumpers. So then I decided to look for some college footage and found some from the 1985 draft and if you look at 1:16 point of this video, it lists his strengths from college as “excellent passer & shooter, consistent rebounder.”

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaxJc7jdp5g&feature=related[/youtube]

I would think that if he was a shooter in college, he would not have forgotten that in his 4th season in NBA only to “find” it later. It did take Mailman a few seasons to add 3 point range to his jumper, but he could always shoot that deadly midrange jumper.

And if you watch the tapes of the ’89 All Star game (my selected season) when Karl was the MVP, almost every one of Karl’s highlight was either Mailman on a break or Mailman from the top of the key or a foul line jumper

This clip is a lot shorter, and its from a 1989 game vs Boston Celtics, you will see a few jumpers as well as a 3 at the end.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuz350SWwl4[/youtube]

This version of Mullin hadn’t quite developed the outside shooting he is most often noted for, and was a supporting player in the Warriors offense.

I honestly never saw a supporting player that was also led his playoff team in scoring. Mullin also in his selected season shot over 35% from 3, an again every single highlight that can be found of Mullin back then was him shooting a jumper. He was used as a spot up shooter by his real team, I am a pretty sure that he will be OK in that role on my team with post talent that he never played with softening up the defense. And if you want to argue that shooting 35% on only 1.5 attempts a game is not have range, you can not argue that at worst he was a great shooter from inside the arc (.580 TS% and .526 eFG%) and can offer spacing simply being on the court.

Also he notes how my team is build similar to the great ’83 Sixers, who were a team that made a total of 25, 3 pointers the entire season, and is known as one of the greatest teams ever. Does that mean that Andrew Toney did not stretch the floor?

Neither Cheeks nor Bobby Jones are extremely dangerous on offense, but nonetheless Cheeks will be checked by Isiah Thomas, who will be able to generate turnovers with his well noted steals abilities.

Remember the FACT that in the selected seasons, Isiah had more turnovers and less steals and always got in foul trouble (fouling out of 25% of games they played during those 2 selected seaosons) when guarding the non dangerous Cheeks.

Both players may not be #1 option scorers, but please remember that when guarded my Isiah, Mo Cheeks averaged 16.8 ppg on 53.8% shooting and Bobby Jones always was super efficient and always had a very high shooting % (.564 in selected season), I would consider both of them very dangerous.

3) Weakside defense. While Sam Bone will happily point to the defensive accolades of Sikma and the Malones, they all gained their accolades as MAN defenders, not weakside ones. Given the potency of my perimeter attack (described later), this relative lack of weakside help will become severely problematic.

This is very simple. If everyone stops the man they are defending, no one needs to help. Considering that every one of my BIGS are exceptional defenders, I am not sure why you would think they would need weakside help. But do you forget that I have one of the greatest weakside defenders in the history of the NBA in Bobby Jones (1.5 blocks per as a SF) on my team? And the fact that my other SF, Alex English (who is not know to be a defender by any means) averaged 1.5 blocks per game, I would say that both my SF are great weakside defenders and could offer tons of weakside shot blocking. You claim that I have no weakside help then later talk about how Bobby Jones was a weakside defender but would not be able to help out because he would be guarding Squid. Considering Squid has ZERO range, and was a scorer that got his points taking the ball to the hole and was never a jump shooter, I have no clue why you would think this would prevent Bobby from offering weakside help defense, not that I think it would be needed, but its sort of funny the petty things that you chose to pick on from my squad.

In summary, it is pretty clear that I have the most dominate player in the series, and arguably the 2nd most unstoppable player as well. I have the better rebounding team, the team that gets to the FT line more, the more EFF team, the team that creates more turnovers, and the team that blocks more shots. I have 2 of the best “team players” of all time playing next to 2 of the most dominate players during their selected seasons. I have tons of mid range shooting. And Snake mentions that my team is designed like the ’83 World Champion Sixers who were lad by the MVP and FINALS MVP Moses Malone, who swept away the KAJ led Lakers team. Mo puts up very similar numbers to the great Isiah Thomas during their selected seasons head to head. Mailman will own the less physical Dan Roundfield. I have the superior bench players (Sikma, English, and Gus Williams) and believe I am just too much for snake to handle, no matter how he trys to spin the little things.

[Snakebites]

^A few clips showing anecdotal examples aren't going to convince anyone yet. Heck, you may even have entire games that show what you are saying. But they are just that- individual games. Everything I've heard suggests his game gradually moved outward as his career moved on, and his mid range jumper gained true efficiency after he was in the league for a while. His bread and butter offense was in the post, and to be a good fit with Moses Malone he needs to be a primarily mid range shooter. At this point, he's not that guy yet. I won't assert he was entirely devoid of any kind of mid range game, just that it wasn't as effective or as central a part to his game in the 80s.

It doesn't surprise me that he came in advertised as a good passer. But any fan of the game knows skills possessed in college don't always immediately transfer over to the NBA right away. Sometimes they take time.

The data simply doesn't support those passing skills transfering into the NBA, at least not at first. He averaged more turnovers than assists in the 80s, so I think that point stands up pretty nicely. Plenty of players are advertised as having skills coming into the NBA that don't transfer at the NBA level until they have more experience. We Pistons fans are still waiting for Greg Monroe's passing game to show up.

RE: Weakside defense. You need weak side defense when you're getting beaten on the perimeter by slashers like Isiah and Moncrief. Your best help defender is out on the perimeter guarding Moncrief. The notion that Cheeks will significantly hamper Isiah is not substantiated, nor is the notion that Moncrief won't be able to do damage. Heck, even Wilkes can cause damage inside the paint. And all you've got up front is man defense.

Isiah/Cheeks: I guess we see two different things when we look at those numbers. I see that, sure, Cheeks played well against Isiah. But I also see that Isiah managed 20/11 against an elite defensive point guard and actually scored more efficiently than he normally does in those matchups. I certainly don't see any evidence from that information that suggests that Isiah won't have a big series, particularly not when he will be driving regularly and your defenders lack the ability to help on the weakside when he slashes into the paint.

RE: Mullin. In the context of this offense, he is a minor supporting player. And its difficult to point to his 3 point shooting when he barely averaged over half a make per game, which was good for only 34 makes for the entire season. My point about your spacing with the Malones and the lack of 3pt shooting remains valid. My defense has an easier job than yours and is equally capable.

Moses/Kareem: I've got no issues conceding rebounding to Moses. Roundfield is a better rebounder than Karl in the selected year, and Roy Tarpley (amazingly enough) rebounds considerably better than Sikma. This should greatly help close the rebounding gap that may be created by that matchup. Kareem had a huge offensive finals vs Moses as well though. He's got a height and skill advantage over his counterpart and fits better with my team than Moses does with his.

[SamBone]

Everything I've heard suggests his game gradually moved outward as his career moved on

Yes, his deeper range was developed in the 90's, but his mid range jumper from the fouline and baseline was something that he had in college, as a rookie and in 1989

It doesn't surprise me that he came in advertised as a good passer. But any fan of the game knows skills possessed in college don't always immediately transfer over to the NBA right away. Sometimes they take time.

The data simply doesn't support those passing skills transfering into the NBA, at least not at first. He averaged more turnovers than assists in the 80s, so I think that point stands up pretty nicely. Plenty of players are advertised as having skills coming into the NBA that don't transfer at the NBA level until they have more experience. We Pistons fans are still waiting for Greg Monroe's passing game to show up.

OK, well then how about stats, You claim that my BIGS are turnover machines. forget the raw stats since both my guys were focal points of their offense and touched the ball the most (hence had greater turnover numbers)

but when you look at TOV% (turnovers per 100 plays)
Snake's BIGS in selected seaons
KAJ in '82: 13.3 TOV%
Tarpley in '89: 13.7 TOV%
Roundfield in '82: 14.5 TOV%

My BIGS in selected seasons
Karl Malone in "89 12.7 TOV%
Sikma in '82: 12.9 TOV%
Moses in '83: 13.8 TOV%

Does this data traslate that Karl had his passing skills that he was known for in college that you think he developed in the 90's?

[Snakebites]

^Its not just about turnovers, but the fact that they have more turnovers than assists.

That strongly indicates their passing ability. The Malones together average only 4 assists while averaging 7 turnovers. No need to make this more complex than it needs to be.

[SamBone]

OK, well then again, when you are so EFF and dominant, why would you need to pass if your not being stopped?

So now that I showed you that the TOV% all favor my BIGS, I guess you want me to now shoe AST%?

AST%= Assist percentage is an estimate of the percentage of teammate field goals a player assisted while he was on on the floor.

so your BIGS
Tarpley: 4.8 AST%
Rounds: 11.9 AST%
KAJ: 11.9 AST%

my BIGS
Moses: 5.1 AST%
Mailman: 12.8 AST%
Sikma: 13.1 AST%

so you still think Mailman forgot how to pass in 1989?