Non-Dynastic Vintage Champions - Discussion

[ReggiesKnicks]

Hmm. Given a certain player who is dropping, I'll ask:

How much does a bad current season weigh on your evaluaton of a player at his peak? Does it bias you at all?

Just sorta curious here.

Assuming it's who I'm thinking of, not at all. However, I've always had other questions about him and almost never draft him.

My opinion of him is he is uber-talented offensively and natural enough defensively where he was a high impact player for a few years. His Peak offense didn't overlap with his peak defense but he was still a Top 10-ish player early in his career and then became an MVP candidate. Always had health concerns, seemingly under-performed consistently which were tied to injuries (mostly) but is still better than Non-MVP Centers.

I like him better than the Knicks ATG Center.

[Laimbeer]

I probably like him as well as anyone. He's clearly better than Ewing, imo. He gets downgraded for narrative and the fact people just don't like him. I think I'd have him over everyone taken in the second round.

[Snakebites]

I probably like him as well as anyone. He's clearly better than Ewing, imo. He gets downgraded for narrative and the fact people just don't like him. I think I'd have him over everyone taken in the second round.

In fairness a lot of people opted for fit in round 2.

[JimmyPlopper]

This looks like a fun set of teams for a draft. I'm in, if I can team up with someone since I'm not sure if I can be active enough for the window between picks with my work schedule.

your turn dawg

[kdawg32086]

I probably like him as well as anyone. He's clearly better than Ewing, imo. He gets downgraded for narrative and the fact people just don't like him. I think I'd have him over everyone taken in the second round.

You're up!

[kdawg32086]

Was surprised that Isiah was still there...

[JimmyPlopper]

Was surprised that Isiah was still there...

You'll find that there are some examples of what I like to call "Group-Think Gone Wrong". Because we are only so many people (not a very large sample size), and we are humans with our own natural biases, you'll find many examples like Isiah where for some reason or another - this particular pool of drafters didn't appreciate the player as much as we might expect.

[Snakebites]

I probably like him as well as anyone. He's clearly better than Ewing, imo. He gets downgraded for narrative and the fact people just don't like him. I think I'd have him over everyone taken in the second round.

Up

[Snakebites]

Was surprised that Isiah was still there...

You'll find that there are some examples of what I like to call "Group-Think Gone Wrong". Because we are only so many people (not a very large sample size), and we are humans with our own natural biases, you'll find many examples like Isiah where for some reason or another - this particular pool of drafters didn't appreciate the player as much as we might expect.

Some players for various reasons (fit, FGA cost, etc) are just harder to build with than others.

Isiah is still a good pick there- no issues with it at all. But there are reasons for him not being selected higher that aren't arbitrary. You can disagree with those reasons but I think it's dismissive/reductive to frame it the way you are here.

[JimmyPlopper]

Was surprised that Isiah was still there...

You'll find that there are some examples of what I like to call "Group-Think Gone Wrong". Because we are only so many people (not a very large sample size), and we are humans with our own natural biases, you'll find many examples like Isiah where for some reason or another - this particular pool of drafters didn't appreciate the player as much as we might expect.

Some players for various reasons (fit, FGA cost, etc) are just harder to build with than others.

Isiah is still a good pick there- no issues with it at all. But there are reasons for him not being selected higher that aren't arbitrary. You can disagree with those reasons but I think it's dismissive/reductive to frame it the way you are here.

The reasons he was not selected higher were never claimed to be arbitrary - but they are certainly subject to the bias of the person making the prediction. That was my point in combination with having a small sample size of participants for which those individual biases do not become diversifed away.

[ReggiesKnicks]

I like Isiah as a shot creator in this pool, as it is relatively thin.

It's important to remember that those Bad Boy Pistons had abundant talent compared to the rest of the league. The 1988 Pistons went a legitimate eight players deep with their lowest minutes player at 23 MPG while the Lakers had seven players and the Celtics had five players.

Looking then at 1989, they swap out Dantley for Agguire but still are a legitimate eight-men deep. The Bulls weren't quite there yet (and had worse depth, but were clearly on the verge of breaking through) while the Lakers were aging out with Cooper/Kareem over the hill. In 1990 they stave off the Bulls and Blazers (Both 1 year away, all things considered).

The Pistons made some excellent moves leading up to this 3-year run and during it. Swapping out Dantley for Agguire, developing James Edwards as a big man who was an older player who bounced around the league but identifying him as a culture fit, then drafting both Salley and Rodman in the 1986 draft.

Isiah Thomas is also an interesting study because his best years were actually in the mid-1980s but he ended up winning once McCloskey put the right pieces in and around him. The team definitely fed off and mirrored Isiah's approach and demeanor though.

[JimmyPlopper]

K

you're up

[Fadeaway_J]

Hmm. Given a certain player who is dropping, I'll ask:

How much does a bad current season weigh on your evaluaton of a player at his peak? Does it bias you at all?

Just sorta curious here.

Assuming it's who I'm thinking of, not at all. However, I've always had other questions about him and almost never draft him.

My opinion of him is he is uber-talented offensively and natural enough defensively where he was a high impact player for a few years. His Peak offense didn't overlap with his peak defense but he was still a Top 10-ish player early in his career and then became an MVP candidate. Always had health concerns, seemingly under-performed consistently which were tied to injuries (mostly) but is still better than Non-MVP Centers.

I like him better than the Knicks ATG Center.

I prefer him to Ewing as an overall talent, but I prefer Ewing's defense and that's generally my primary consideration at that position. Although if he had more of a track record of replicating his regular season offensive dominance under playoff conditions, that would be a different matter entirely.

With that said, he's obviously absurd value at the start of the third round.

[MadNESS]

Alot of ballsy picks... i like it

[Fadeaway_J]

Sheed was the other guy I considered. Just couldn't pass up on Reed at 14.5 FGAs.

[wackbone]

Barkley was a super obvious pick for me in Round Two. Have no idea who I want in Round Three.

[JimmyPlopper]

Barkley was a super obvious pick for me in Round Two. Have no idea who I want in Round Three.

There is a guy that I'm targeting for my next pick, but if I were you I would give him a long hard look as well. I'll PM you in case you have interest

[Snakebites]

Not sure yet how well suited this pool is for a Giannis team. We'll see

UP

And there were two players who I didn't think Isiah would be an ideal fit with who I figured would be available in round 3. Drexler is one of them.

[Fadeaway_J]

.

Durantbird is up

[wackbone]

Alot of ballsy picks... i like it

Up