NBA/ABA Decades League Discussion Thread

[Baller 24]

'09 Wade can guard point guards perfectly fine IMO, and obviously yeah he's not as good as Payton defensively. Just stating he can work at the point guard spot.

On that note, I'd like to switch my choice from '06 Wade to '09 Wade. I feel he's better overall defensively, and he's a lot more clutch when you add in the range, and he's actually a lot better three point shooter than '06 Wade.

[CellarDoor]

Again, if you think Wade =/= Payton as a defender (especially on PGs), then I'm not sure we can resolve this discussion

[lorak]

Bolded: problem is that's past prime kidd. He's still good, but nowhere near the defender that Payton was. At their defensive peaks there's not a discussion on who the better shooter is.

Yeah, and it’s clearly Kidd.

1996 Payton (DPOTY): .748 FT% and .328 3P% - and that’s with shortened line! With normal distance he shot .278 % (1993-94 season).

2002 and 2003 Kidd (Nets in finals): .814 and .841 FT%, .321 and .341 3P% (and he had more FTA and 3PA than Payton).

So it’s really no contest. However case could be made that Payton was better scorer. Well, maybe not better, but higher volume scorer and for sure he was better at slashing the basket.

[CellarDoor]

defensive peaks was the wrong word...and 96 wasn't necessarily his defensive peak (see Camby, Marcus for other examples). I currently have him listed as the 98/9 season I believe.

[Warspite]

Wow, I was thinking Warspite was a huge Thurmond fan. Must've been someone else.

I like Thurmond's positional defense more I think, but in reference to help D, it's hard to beat Mutombo.

I am a huge Thurmond fan and how he/Lucas/DrJ and Jerry West lost in the 1st rd still baffles me.

Depending on your judges knowledge Deke being the more modern player just has several adv


Just a quick note of the Wade discussion. Theres no way he could play PG and guard the GOAT PGs here. Isiah would score 50 on him and foul out the entire frontcourt.

Gary Payton has always been a 2nd rd pick in every 16team ATL. Taking him over Isiah might be odd but I have np with where hes taken. If he was there in my 2nd pick he would be on my team.

[CellarDoor]

Isaiah is better than him in terms of peaks. I have Bird which restricts me from using his 80s seasons, and I like my defenders.

[lorak]

defensive peaks was the wrong word...and 96 wasn't necessarily his defensive peak (see Camby, Marcus for other examples). I currently have him listed as the 98/9 season I believe.

1998 .338 3P%, .744 FT%
1999 .295 3P%, .721 FT%
2000 .340 3P%, .735 FT%
So still much worse FT shooter (in fact he never had season above .800 FT%!) than Kidd, but comparable three point shooter (however not during ’99 season).

[bastillon]

Payton was actually a pretty bad scorer in the playoffs. his TS% was quite terrible for a guy who's supposed to lead his ballclub.

[CellarDoor]

Payton was actually a pretty bad scorer in the playoffs. his TS% was quite terrible for a guy who's supposed to lead his ballclub.

Good thing he's not "leading" my ball club, and there's not really a feasible way to double him. And the two most likely seasons I'd use (97/8, 95/6) sport more than adequate TS's for a point guard at 57% and 58.5%. He also shot 41% and 38% from 3 those years with 3-5 attempts a game. Compared to Kidd's two finals' years not getting over 52% either year, under 50% one year and below average 3p% (putting it nicely for one of those years). Nevermind the fact that there's not a debate on Payton being the better defender and on a team with Bird, I don't want/need an elite playmaker when a very good one will do.

[CellarDoor]

Anyways, I know Bastillion, and I've got a pretty good read on Stern. I don't think this debate's going to end regardless what is said, and I don't feel like breaking my player down in the discussion thread anymore, so i'm done. Address it if you meet me.

[lorak]

And the two most likely seasons I'd use (97/8, 95/6) sport more than adequate TS's for a point guard at 57% and 58.5%. He also shot 41% and 38% from 3 those years with 3-5 attempts a game.

He never shot better than .375 from three (and that was only one season, in the rest he ALWAYS was below .340), and during seasons with SHORTENED line (1994/95-1996/97) he had .302, .328 and .313. That’s worse than prime Kidd!
And Payton also always was worst FT shooter than Kidd. So every evidence suggest that prime Kidd was better shooter than prime Payton.

However I think as a scorer Gary have advantage at slashing the basket and maybe post up play (however Kidd also was good at that)

[bastillon]

but the thing is Payton wasn't any better in those years than he was usually. contextual thing. you can't simply look at Shawn Marion 2006, take his 22/12 and treat him as if he was a legit MVP contender. Payton didn't suddenly improve, he had a nice run in the playoffs but it doesn't change who he really was - vs good teams Payton was no scoring threat and that's not very surprising considering his terrible style of scoring (damn poor at getting to the line and doesn't make them when he gets there, doesn't have 3pt range).

also the thing with Kidd is that he is a very good spot-up 3pt shooter and always has been. when he has his feet set, he's on the money with his shot (look at FT%!). what Kidd absolutely failed to do is creating off-the-dribble. as the first option on that team Kidd was forced to shoot jumpers off-the-dribble and that's why his TS% was terrible. Kidd is great (and better than Payton) off-the-ball, in a spot-up shooter role, not only bc of his superior range but also much better court vision and ability to find the open man. offensively Payton was a scoring point who regressed whenever he faced better competition.

I don't really see point in arguing he could be better for that team. as a role player Kidd is as great as you can be, bc he doesn't need the ball to be effective and his strengths are mainly non-scoring-related anyway. I won't agree with the notion that Payton was on the other planet defensively. Kidd achieved more team success defensively actually and his rebounding alone clearly seperates them, obviously GP has his advantages on that end, but I don't think they can make up for the rest of this.

Kidd is the best role player you can get in these competitions.

[CellarDoor]

Not adding to anything, just clarifying: Stern, I was addressing Bastillion's talk about playoff Glove, not regular season.

[lorak]

Not adding to anything, just clarifying: Stern, I was addressing Bastillion's talk about playoff Glove, not regular season.

Ok, my bad.

[SamBone]

I was wondering what you guys thought of me using 1979 Robert Parish (GSW) rather then Parish on the Celtics. 1979 was his best season for blocks (2.9 per) plus he also averaged 17.2 ppg, 12.1 reb, 1.3 steals. His % was lower but since he will not be needed as a top option, I am not sure that matters for my team, considering Jordan, Pettit and Nash will carry most of the scoring on my squad.

He will be asked to do his best to try and control the great C's in the history of the game and block some shots

[CellarDoor]

I was wondering what you guys thought of me using 1979 Robert Parisg (GSW) rather then Parish on the Celtics. 1979 was his best season for blocks (2.9 per) plus he also averaged 17.2 ppg, 12.1 reb, 1.3 steals. His % was lower but since he will not be needed as a top option, I am not sure that matters for my team, considering Jordan, Pettit and Nash will carry most of the scoring on my squad.

He will be asked to do his best to try and control the great C's in the history of the game and block some shots

I'd say I can't think of a single 1970s SF that's worth it at this point, so you might consider that since there's frankly a ton of 80s SFs worth mentioning.

[bastillon]

too bad I'm replaced. I'd choose Cowens now. perfect fit for that team. if anything, I'm still interested

[All In The Name]

Bastillon, you're back in. From now on though, I'd urge you and anyone else to e-mail me a list of players if you think you might be gone when your pick comes.

allinthename2@yahoo.com

[Snakebites]

Yeah, I'm sorry I missed the email.

Its not my regular email, its an account I set up for Realgm specifically so I could post it publicly without fear. I'd appreciate it if someone would post here if they are sending me a list.

[pancakes3]

I was wondering what you guys thought of me using 1979 Robert Parish (GSW) rather then Parish on the Celtics. 1979 was his best season for blocks (2.9 per) plus he also averaged 17.2 ppg, 12.1 reb, 1.3 steals. His % was lower but since he will not be needed as a top option, I am not sure that matters for my team, considering Jordan, Pettit and Nash will carry most of the scoring on my squad.

He will be asked to do his best to try and control the great C's in the history of the game and block some shots

well considering it's down to the wire, and you already picked parish i guess i'll spoil it. i think both you and bastillon should have gone elvin hayes at the C spot. Hayes is a better defender, rebounder, and scorer than both Parish and Cowens.

had i known that hayes would have dropped to the 5th round, i probably would have stuck with the Magic pick in the 1st round and drafted rodman/ben wallace instead of mcadoo.