Franchise League HoF Restriction Semis (Votes Welcome)

[SabasRevenge!]

Looks like we've got all the votes we're gonna get, so round two is:

Bucks v. Bulls

Warriors v. Blazers

[SamBone]

since write ups do not matter should I just vote now?

[Snakebites]

since write ups do not matter should I just vote now?

What do you mean?

[CellarDoor]

He's being pissy about last round.

[SamBone]

lol, not pissy I just didn't know teams that did no writeup could advance! Good luck CD

[penbeast0]

When are writeups due so we don't get another situation where the votes are in before the writeups?

[SabasRevenge!]

When are writeups due so we don't get another situation where the votes are in before the writeups?

How about by Wednesday morning?

[CellarDoor]

Best of luck to the Bucks and the other remaining participants.

Sloan(20)/Van Lier(20)/Kirk(8)
Jordan(27)/Sloan(8)/Gordon(13)
Pippen(36)/Jordan(12)/Walker
Grant(32)/Woolridge(16)
Gilmore(36)/Chandler(12)

**note, I may add more about our benches once I see Milwaukee's minute distribution and I get some more time**

Big man match-ups.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 01&y4=1971

I'm going against, in my opinion, the best big man to play basketball. And next to him is a nice compliment and a terrific defender in Sikma. Even with Gilmore and Grant I can't expect to win this. I need to mitigate it, and I feel like I can. One thing I feel like always gave Kareem fits was big, physical Cs. Gilmore's a VERY big, VERY physical C. He's going to deny Kareem his spots, box out hard, and punish him on the offensive end. To add to that, Kareem's going to be tasked with trying to defend the basket from onslaughts from Jordan, Pippen and co since Sikma's not what you'd call an ace help defender. Kareem's going to get his to be sure, but his efficiency is going to suffer, and he's likely going to be in foul trouble a game or two depending on the era it's being officiated in. Neither Grant nor Sikma are going to have a good time of it this round due to the other's defense. I do feel like Sikma is mitigated here since he's tasked with defending my 5th option on the floor whereas Horace is a bit better helping on D, so his impact should remain high. It's worth noting the drastic difference in efficiency between our teams (see link)

Wings:
Now the tables are turned. He's facing an arguable Goat and a terrific facilitator, defender, and anything else you need in Scottie.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 01&y4=1974

When MJ is in a conversation, you generally start with offense. Not the case here. You're looking at three guys who are in the argument for best wing defender ever, and then Dandridge. That's going to hurt, especially when MJ moves to SF for a portion of the game. Moncrief hounded the hell out of everyone and is, imo, one of the 5 best guys to throw at Michael 1 on 1, but he's still going to get his. On the other side of the ball Squid is no joke either, but we expect Jordan to do a fine job limiting him. Pippen, on the other hand, we expect to wreck Dandridge in every way. Bob's going to have a difficult time scoring on Scottie, he won't have an advantage on the boards, and his his already limited passing game is going to suffer even more. Michael may have to work this series, and it wouldn't be the first time (see Pistons, Detroit), but he's going to do his thing here just like always. Again, note the efficiency advantage at both positions.

Point guards/bench

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 01&y4=1973

This is an interesting match-up to me. Sloan measures out pretty well compared to Oscar, and I feel like my three headed defensive monster at the 1-3 allows for me to play anyone on any of his three guys. At this stage in Oscar's career he was very much in "robin" mode: does he play third option behind Moncrief or second? No matter, he's going to have a difficult time posting up anyone. I'll likely go with Jordan on Oscar to start and Sloan on Moncrief. When the benches come in you'll see Van Lier going mostly against Cassell and Hinrich's time being against Oscar. I believe Hinrich has the tools to at least force Oscar to take more difficult shots (see Paul Pierce last season, Dwayne Wade in the chosen season). For the benches I simply chose who I assume will be getting the most minutes on both teams off the bench.

Offense: the offense will of course be run through Jordan. Between our rebounding edge and our ability to create turnovers (All our guards can force steals, Jordan and Pippen come at you with a lot of blocks, Gilmore and Grant with blocks, steals) we expect Jordan, Pippen and Sloan to get out on the break early and often and put pressure on the buck's transition defense. With Gilmore and Jordan's hyperefficiency, the same cannot be said.

Defense: I touched on it in the offense section, but we like the match-ups. We have the size to match the Buck's size, and with his two best options offensively being post oriented and Moncrief being a finisher, we feel like they're going to have some trouble scoring on us at all times.

Bottom line:
With an efficiency and rebounding advantage to go with the GOAT closer and top flight defenders everywhere, we feel like this round is ours. The Bucks are a very well put together team, but we just match-up too well with them.

[lorak]

For the Bucks' viewing pleasure:

Sloan(20)/Van Lier(20)/Kirk(8)
Jordan(27)/Sloan(8)/Gordon(13)
Pippen(36)/Jordan(12)/Walker
Grant(32)/Woolridge(16)
Gilmore(36)/Chandler(12)

Good decision with Sloan In starting five. Our matchup is very interesting. I’ll do writeup before regular season is over.

[Warspite]

'92 Terry Porter (34) / '79 Lionel Hollins (14)
'09 Brandon Roy (36) / Drexler (12)
'92 Clyde Drexler (24) / '95 Cliff Robinson (24) / '87 Kiki Vandeweghe
'91 Buck Williams (20) / '02 Rasheed Wallace (28)
'77 Bill Walton (34) / '96 Arvydas Sabonis (14)

C Wilt 42mpg/Carroll 6mpg
PF Smith 10mpg/Jamison 30mpg/Biedrens 8mpg
SF Barry 36mpg/Mullin 12mpg
SG Spree 28mpg/Mullin 20mpg
PG Hardaway 34mpg/Floyd 14mpg

An interesting matchup in that for the most part the Blazers go small and the Warriors have adv in the frontcourt. Im almost giddy at the fact I dont have to play Nellie ball exclusively and can actualy go big and be effective.

PG matchup is interesting with Timmy vs Porter. I like taht Timmy can get by Terry and that Timmy doesnt have a to play great defense because Porter isnt a huge scoring threat. Terry does like to spot up and let Roy/Drexler create and thats fine with me.

SG has Spree vs Roy. No doubt that Roy is the better off player but Spree is essentialy for defense and slashing. I see the 2 playing similar roles just that Sprees will be smaller as hes a lesser option. The thing is that if Spree plays up to Roys level or brings Roy down to him its very hard for the Blazers to win.

SF Im a huge Drexler fan and Ill bet I think Drexler will do better than 80% of the voters who IMHO under rate Drexler consistantly. Still I like my matchup with Rick Barry. The 2 have similar games with Drexler being the better passer and Barry more outside range. Barry also has more size and can be more effective in the post. A fun matchup though and Im sure Drexler will have a couple big nights.

PF Ah Buck Williams the MVP of the 1991 NBA Finals. Its his self destruction and lack of mental toughness that cost the Blazers in games 3 and 4. Smith will use his lesser mins to attempt to control the boards and then Jamison will try to draw Buck outside and frustrate him. Buck will have to choose between rebounding and defense. Bucks offense is limited and hes a garbage man who thrives on hustle Hes a bit past his prime and we will attempt to run him and cause fatigue.

C WIlt vs Walton is another classic matchup. I expect Walton to have similar stats as he did vs KAJ and for KAJ to have similar stats as KAJ. Both will have great def plays and both will be effective in the paint. I do think Wilt will have better stats but Im sure Walton isnt the #1 primo option that Wilt is. We will play off of Wilt early and then use Barry later much like the Kobe/Shaq Lakers.

Bench: Im useing Mullin in the super 6th man role. hes in his best 3pt shooting yr and his 2 spg, 4apg playmaking helps him to be the super glue guy. His mins fluctuate as needed and his ability to play off the ball makes him a valuable asset. The Blazers with Uncle Cliffy have a great 6th man that can play 3/4/ It will intersting to see a 2/3 match up with a 3/4 but Im confident because I have all NBA allstar player and he has Cliffy in a non allstar yr. Sheed will also be playing alot of PF vs Jamison. It will be an interesting matchup and i may have to go big with Biendrens.

Conclusion: I like my chances because for the Blazers to exploit the Warriors weaknesses they have to change there style. The Blazers dont want to slow the game down and they want to play a finesse game and not be overly physical. When the Blazers are at there best the Warriros are not at the worst and in fact they just have to speed things up a little form the Blazers pace to be at there own. The Blazers go just a little to fast and they fall into the trap and Blazers are out of sync. The Blazers are not a killer rebounding team nor are they huge in size. They run a 3 guard offense and that takes alot of pressure of of Warriors defenders and adds to the singular dominance of Wilt Chamberlain as he doesnt deal with huge forwards.

[SabasRevenge!]

War - I was pleased to be squaring off with you in this round. One of the best parts of these is learning new things from experienced posters and war's write up this round is no different.

Here are some key points before I get going to work:

1. Porter v. Hardaway

Key match up and I think my opponent underestimates Porter as a scorer, defender, and athlete. TP was an excellent athlete who played very good on ball defense. Hardaway was super quick, but TP is a good enough athlete to stay with him. On the other end, Porter is a better shooter than Hardaway, great at running the break, and a more efficient scorer.

Hardaway's ORTG/DRTG differential was -2 in his chosen season, Porter's was +13 with a 119 ORTG. Porter shot .461, Hardaway shot .427. In a league like this, I'll take the efficient, do it all guy who plays good defense.

2. The Warriors don't have an answer for Drexler. Barry will be seriously overmatched as will Mullin. Barry and Mullin are two guys who (like Drexler) will score against even the best defenders, but Clyde is simply too freakish an athlete and too complete a player for either of them to even slow down.

When Mullin is on Roy they will have similar problems. Uncle Cliffy is a very long, versatile defender who was a potent offensive player as well. Robinson is seeing significant time as our third wing and I believe that he can do a nice defensive job against either Barry or Mullin. When looking at the wings, I will take Drexler, Roy, Cliffy over Barry, Mullin, Spree.

3. Wilt is a huge piece for any team, but the Warriors FC falls apart after that. Mr. Mean is a good role player, but IMO he shouldn't be starting in this league. Jamison is an okay volume scorer (22p on 18shots, 19PER), but he is a non-factor on defense (0.3 DWS in his year). Jamison's shot selection and volume will end up hurting his team, especially with his lack of defense. Joe Barely Cares and Beans are non-factors as well.

We counter with a tight rotation of '77 Walton (nuff said) and '95 Sabonis (almost 25PER on INCREDIBLE efficiency, perfect as a backup), arguably the two GOAT passers at C. Then we have Buck in his defensive prime and Sheed in his prime at 27. It's also worth noting that Walton and Williams, my starters, are fantastic rebounders.

4. Bench Play.

The Warriors have some nice firepower off of their bench, but we have serious firepower to counter in Robinson/Wallace, as well as great defense from every player. Hollins is a perfect guy to be a bench G in a league like this because of his stellar D, team play, passing ability, and ability to play off the ball. The Warriors lack the same all-around depth that we have off of our bench, resorting to playing Carrol and Biedrins with Jamison getting big minutes. We have a nine player rotation with excellent pieces all around.

5. Wilt is the Warriors best player. He's an amazing player. Fortunately, we have a stellar defensive front court in Walton, Buck, Sheed, Sabonis with great size and man defense. Wilt is a player who will get his, but he will have to work for it.

We've also got great guys for controlling the tempo, so much of the time we will be able to prevent the Warriors from running. When they do, we have some amazing open court players of our own including one of the best all-time in Drexler. Porter and Drexler were a very potent running duo, so it will take more than Spree getting back to stop them.

Overall, the Warriors have the best player in this series in Wilt. He's going against a fantastic C in his absolute championship prime in Walton. After Wilt, they bigs are inferior. The G/F match ups are interesting, but I believe that Porter is a better PG for this sort of game due to his superior defense and shooting and the Warriors are lacking when it comes to perimeter defense with the exception of Spree. I believe that this lack of perimeter D with very comparable offensive wings gives me the edge on the perimeter. Ultimately, the team edge at most positions and superior depth will be enough to overcome Wilt's edge over a great C in Walton.

[Warspite]

I didnt see a ton of the Blazers in the regular season but saw several playoff games every yr. It seemed to me that Drexler and Porter played alot like Isiah and Dumars in that each took turns running teh offense and each got to play a good 20mpg off the ball. Is that correct? Ill never forget Porter destroying the Jazz with those epic shooting nights. I liked him and his game. I still think he could be a good coach in the NBA and hope he gets another shot. He was always very classy to me when I was with the Suns. I realy think they are a underrated alltime backcourt.

I would like to see this Blazer team run a 3 guard offense with all 3 guys able to run a team and all three good size. I think they could be very effective. I also like Walton being able to move around and compliment the others. Its a very unselfish team that throwbacks and purest would love to watch.

Its too bad teh min yrs wasnt 3. I think it would change this whole matchup with Lucas on the Blazers and Mitch Richmond on the Warriors. Again I like this format with some further tinkering but I would not allow any GMs to choose the teams that they are fans of. Its the homerism that can doom a ATL like this because everyone thinks there players are better than they realy are. Maybe I would something like letting Sabas build the Blazers team but then he has to trade the team and another GM has to do the writeups and he gets someone elses team and he has to do the writeups for that team. Having to look up The Warriors and go through 50 yrs of rosters to find these 12 guys was no doubt a learning experience.

No matter the outcome I had fun and thankyou to Sabas for this idea...

[lorak]

It's always hard to play against team with Michael Jordan, but I’ll try

Sloan(20)/Van Lier(20)/Kirk(8)
Jordan(27)/Sloan(8)/Gordon(13)
Pippen(36)/Jordan(12)/Walker
Grant(32)/Woolridge(16)
Gilmore(36)/Chandler(12)

vs Bucks
STARTING FIVE
Abdul-Jabbar (1971) C
Sikma (1989) PF/C
Dandridge (1974) SF/SG
Moncrief (1984) G
Robertson (1971) G

BENCH
Bogut (2010) C
Baker (1994) PF/C
Cummings (1987) PF
Marques (1984) F/G
Pressey (1986) F/G
Redd (2003) SG
Cassell (2003) PG

No doubt that both teams are great defensively but also on offensive end built around arguably two GOAT. You can’t stop Jordan, but also you can’t stop KAJ. The only thing both teams could do is try to slow down opposite GOAT, make him work very hard on every possession. And I think that Bucks have better players to challenge MJ than Bulls to challenge KAJ.

1. Bucks perimeter players: Roberston, Moncrief, Dandridge, Pressey, Marques, Cassell, Redd.
Of course Cassell or even Big O wouldn’t guard Jordan. But the rest of these players (maybe expect Redd who’s 11th man in rotation) are capable of doing so. Especially Moncrief, who would be on Jordan most of the time. IF he would have problems with fouls (what's doubtful because in season I'm using he was back to back DPOTY and averaged only 2.6 PF in 39 MPG) Bucks have very good defender Pressey (All D 1st Team), above average (in some seasons he made All D Teams) Dandridge and at least solid Marques. So Bucks have men power to put on Jordan. Of course – I’ll repeat this – Jordan can’t be stopped, but I think my Bucks will make him work as hard as possible in Franchise ATL (even in normal ATL Moncrief is probably the best possible defender we could put on Jordan).


2. On the other hand Bulls main concern is Bucks GOAT – Abdul-Jabbar. And Bulls frontcourt isn’t as impressive as Bucks perimeter players: Gilmore, Grant, Chandler and Woolridge.

First, Woolridge is rather SF (6-9, 220, very thin player, in 1985 he played at SF – Bulls PFs that year were Johnson and Greenwood) and he never was known as good defensive player.

Gilmore, Grant and Chandler are of course very good defenders. Especially Gilmore may be big concern for Bucks, because KAJ have problems with strong players – Lanier is the best example. But this whole thing is little overblown. I can’t’ check how KAJ was doing against Gilmore but I know how he was doing against similar player (big and strong) only better – Lakers Wilt Chamberlain. There’s no complete data but for example in 1972 season they meet five times and KAJ averaged 40.4 PPG (to be fair – during their first 11 games KAJ had 26 ppg and 16 RPG, but you know, that include KAJ’s rookie year ). One of this games is a famous game, when Jabbar's 39 points and 20 rebounds led the Bucks to a 120-104 victory on Jan 9, 1972...this ended the Lakers' record 33-game winning streak. That game is available on the Internet (I think even on youtube) so everybody could watch it and that would give some impression how 1971 KAJ vs 1982 Gilmore matchup would look like.

It’s also worth to mention that 1982 Gilmore averaged 3.5 PF in 34 MPG, so if he would have foul trouble against KAJ it would be devastating for Bulls because skinny Chandler (3.4 PF in 27.4 MPG) is no match for KAJ. Grant was very good defender but his 1992 version was definitely too small to defend centers, especially GOAT center.

So my point is – Bucks have men firepower to make Jordan work hard on his points. On the other hand Bulls are weaker in frontcourt and except of foul prone Gilmore they don’t have anybody who could make KAJ work hard.

Well, it’s worth to elaborate. Bulls defensive greatness is built around perimeter players – Jordan and Pippen are two of the very best perimeters defenders ever and also Sloan, Van Lier and Kirk are very good. But Bucks offense is built around KAJ and in the frontcourt Bulls aren’t so good as on the perimeter. Even if Bulls want to press, deny entry passes Bucks have good or very good passers and ballhandlers on every perimeter position. Besides, if you want press Big O he would dribble with back on the defender, just like Magic against quicker guards, so unless you double team him, pressing wouldn’t do much damage to Bucks.


You also can’t double team KAJ. Sikma with his range if obvious reason, but – as I said in my first round writeup – Bucks have very good midrange shooters (look at FT%), so even if Bulls will use Pippen (GREAT help defender) or Jordan to double team KAJ, Bucks have players who will punish Bulls

On the other hand Bulls starting players aren’t good shooters – Jordan is only exception (however in 1991 his three point range was still average at best), but Pippen or Sloan weren’t shooters:
1971 Sloan .715 FT%
1991 Pippen .706 FT% and .309 3P% (but only total 21 3PM and 68 3PA)

1991 Jordan had range (he was very good midrange shooter) but that was still younger and more slashing to the basket version of MJ. So Bulls spacing isn’t too good and for example Bucks player who will guard Sloan would be able to sometimes double team Jordan. Well, in fact Jordan, Pippen and Sloan attacking the basket with Gilmore in the middle – that gives Bucks more defensive opportunities to defend MJ than Bulls have on defending KAJ.

So in short – both our teams are very good defensively, but Bucks are better suited to defend against perimeter players (so against main offensive Bulls options) than Bulls against frontcourt (so Bucks main offensive options). That’s why I think Bucks would win that very interesting matchup.


At the end I want to comment on one thing CellarDoor said

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 01&y4=1973

I don’t know why you put Baker here who is Bucks 12th man in rotation

BTW, If we want compare our benches:

G and SF
Van Lier, Kirk, Gordon, Walker
vs
Marques, Pressey, Cassell, Redd

PF and C
Woolridge, Chandler
vs
Cummings, Bogut, Baker

So I don’t think Bulls have advantage here. In Bulls best case scenario perimeter bench players are even (however even Chet Walker wasn’t as good as Marques) but Bucks frontcourt is better (I wrote about it above).

[CellarDoor]

^Note, put baker in there because I haven't noticed any minute's rotations for you, and I had to take a guess to do any bench comparisons.

Rebuttal may or may not come later. I'm buried in every manner of work possible.

[SabasRevenge!]

^Note, put baker in there because I haven't noticed any minute's rotations for you, and I had to take a guess to do any bench comparisons.

Rebuttal may or may not come later. I'm buried in every manner of work possible.

Wow, I'm loving that Bulls/Bucks match up.

Lets set a deadline of tonight for write ups and we'll get to voting tomorrow. I'm leaving for a week on Tuesday, so hopefully we can have the finals wrapped up by then. All four of these teams are so interesting to me. I think War built a Warriors team that compliments Wilt very well and IMO he's a tricky player to build around. Of course MJ has been a tough one to build around as well, but Cellar has his trusty Bulls teammates to choose from. And then there is that Bucks team with prime KAJ and one of my all-time favorite players in Squid. I look forward to thinking about that match up more because it's going to take some time to decide. I'm also really interested to see how people think my match would play out. I did my best to write a persuasive argument, but it's just so freaking close. I feel like both of these are flip a coin type match ups.

[CellarDoor]

I flipped a coin.


It said I won.

[SabasRevenge!]

Looks like we've got some nice perspectives to go off of from all semifinalists, so lets get the judging - or coin flipping - going!

I'm gonna get deeper into the match up I can judge tomorrow, but MVP/Finals MVP KAJ v. MVP/Finals MVP MJ is just unreal.

[Warspite]

Im going with the Bucks because

1. Bucks are superior reboudning team
2. KAJ is more eff than MJ
3. This Bucks team quite possibly is one of best def ATL I have seen.

I like the size and overall length of the Bucks to frustrate and deal with the triangle.

[CellarDoor]

I'm having trouble on this match-up, but I'll get my vote in by the end of the day today before I go out of town. If Chicago wins, I'd ask the next write-up not be due til Monday or Tuesday if possible too. Just a heads up.

[SabasRevenge!]

Bucks v. Bulls

Both of these teams are fantastic.

The Bucks front court is simply better and IMO they also have superior depth. As a fan I would hope to see plenty of Marques Johnson and Paul Pressey. I'd also look for Sikma to play big minutes over Baker/Cummings. The Bucks have incredible playmaking and passing all over the floor. Literally at every position except for when Baker/Cummings are in. It's actually kind of ridiculous. One reason I would hope to see more Marques in the game is to have a great shooter on the floor. As it is, the Bucks have good shooters from mid-range in, but are lacking from distance. I think of Moncrief's range as similar to Wade's. IMO their lack of true outside shooting hurts them a bit, even with good overall shooters in the game. I like that both Jabbar and Sikma sink shots away from the rim, allowing Oscar and Sid to penetrate. This team is just fantastic defensively. They may be a bit weak on defense at PG, but they're loaded at the wing and their starting big men are nice. I think they will play very good team defense. Jordan won't be stopped, but I think they'll at least make him work and do a pretty good job on everyone else.

The Bulls have an advantage at G/F with Jordan/Pippen. I also love that Horace Grant was selected to start on this team. I think that was a great move. Chicago Artis is still a top center and he and Horace are ridiculously efficient. I actually believe that the Bulls win the starting rebounding battle inside with Ho and Artis. They won't score as much, but they'll score efficiently. Where they get hurt is when they have to go to their bench. I don't see Chandler and Woolridge faring too well. I would look for Ho to play big minutes because IMO Orlando isn't the right kind of PF for this squad and Ho is the perfect PF for this squad. Like the Bucks, the Bulls don't have deadly outside shooters playing big minutes. Defensively, the Bulls are also a very, very good team. Jordan and Pippen are obviously a scary tandem (Sloan and Van Lier are no slouches) and I believe that they will limit the Bucks perimeter players. Grant and Gilmore provide them with fantastic interior defense even though Kareem will still get his.

These may be the top two defensive teams in this game. Both also happen to be great offensive squads as well. I would actually give the Bulls a slight defensive advantage and the Bucks a slight offensive advantage. This is a really tough one to call because IMO the Bucks will get more from their big men but both teams will score well in the paint. The Bulls will get more from their perimeter players, especially Jordan. Jordan is a huge clutch advantage, but it's a hell of a luxury to go to Kareem at the end of the game.

Ultimately, I give this one to the Bulls by a razor thin margin because I believe that they will have a slight defensive and rebounding advantage. The defensive clincher for me was that I believe that the Bulls players will limit the Bucks players more on the perimeter and I think that Jordan/Pippen will frustrate Oscar. I expect Kareem and Michael to carry the load offensively, but this one comes down to the slight edges that the Bulls hold.

Bulls in one of the greatest seven game series of all time.