Build a Team 1995 Final 4: Poop/Snake and Sam/Pen

[Snakebites]

Myself, poodamoop, Sam Bone, and penbeast0 have advanced.

Deadline for writeups Thursday 11:59 PST.

[Miller4ever]

My bad on not getting the vote in. I read through a few writeups, but I have not had the time to articulate my decisions.

[penbeast0]

Thought Tmac had it ... cool. Head to head with Sambone then I assume.

[Snakebites]

^Sam and I voted for TMAC.

Poop, Cellar, Sabas voted for you. You're in.

Ideally, I'd prefer if those in the race didn't have to vote, so I hope that those who have been eliminated will step up and vote.

And yes, its you vs Sam Bone and me vs poop.

[CellarDoor]

^Sam and I voted for TMAC.

Poop, Cellar, Sabas voted for you. You're in.

Ideally, I'd prefer if those in the race didn't have to vote, so I hope that those who have been eliminated will step up and vote.

And yes, its you vs Sam Bone and me vs poop.

I'll be around. If only I'd paid attention and written a write-up against Sam, heh.

[SamBone]

I have a fealing pen will do a writeup and make up for all rebuttals in this round!

[SabasRevenge!]

^Sam and I voted for TMAC.

Poop, Cellar, Sabas voted for you. You're in.

Ideally, I'd prefer if those in the race didn't have to vote, so I hope that those who have been eliminated will step up and vote.

And yes, its you vs Sam Bone and me vs poop.

Wow, only five votes?

[CellarDoor]

My match-up only had 5 or 6 I believe.

[Snakebites]

^Sam and I voted for TMAC.

Poop, Cellar, Sabas voted for you. You're in.

Ideally, I'd prefer if those in the race didn't have to vote, so I hope that those who have been eliminated will step up and vote.

And yes, its you vs Sam Bone and me vs poop.

Wow, only five votes?

2 others voted as well, but obviously couldn't in this bracket. Not a great turnout, but we were past the point where I felt it was healthy or beneficial to wait for more.

[SamBone]

pen, when you can can you please post your mintes per position breakdown for our matchup?

mine most likely will be same as last series (couldn't find yours)

PG: M.Blaylock (33), E.Perry (15), S.Smith
SG: H.Hawkins (25), B.Phills (18), S.Smith (5)
SF: G.Hill (35), S.Smith (13)
PF: C.Laettner (25), O.Thorpe (23)
C: A.Mourning (35), Laettner (5), Muresan (8)

[penbeast0]

Code: Select all

AT FORWARD, 6-6 and 252 lbs ... SIR CHARLES BARKLEY
SEASON PER 36 -- 11.4reb, 4.2ast, 23.6pts @ .572ts% (3.3x3pa@.338)
PLAYOFFS -- 39.0mpg, 13.4reb, 3.2ast, 25.7pts @ .580ts%

AT GUARD, 6'7 and 185lbs. . . REGGIE MILLER
SEASON PER 36 -- 2.8reb, 3.3ast, 21.5pts @ .620ts%(6.3x3pa @.415)
PLAYOFFS -- 37.7mpg, 3.6reb, 2.1ast, 25.5pts @ .632ts%

AT CENTER, 7'4 and 250lbs . . . . RIK SMITS
SEASON PER 36 -- 9.1reb, 1.7ast, 23.6pts @ .572ts%
PLAYOFFS -- 32.1mpg, 7.0reb, 2.0ast, 20.0pts @ .611ts%

AT GUARD, 6'5 and 195lbs . . . NATE MCMILLAN
SEASON PER 36 -- 5.3reb, 7.3ast, 2.9st, 7.3pts @ .496ts%(2.7x3pa@.342)
PLAYOFFS -- 28.1mpg, 4.5reb, 7.3ast, 2.5st, 4.8pts @ .398ts%

AT FORWARD, 6'9 and 220 lbs . . . A.C. GREEN
SEASON PER 36 -- 9.0reb, 1.7ast, 12.3pts @.596ts% (1.7x3pa @ .339))
PLAYOFFS -- 36.8mpg, 12.0reb. 1.3ast. 12.8pts @.605ts%

At Guard, 6’3 and 185 lbs, KENNY “The Jet” SMITH
SEASON PER 36 – 2.7reb, 5.7ast, 14.9pts @ .640ts% (5.9x3pa @ .429)
PLAYOFF -- 29.6min, 2.2reb, 4.5ast, 10.8pts @ .605ts%

At Forward and Center, 6-8 and 215 lbs (in college anyway), BUCK WILLIAMS
SEASON PER 36 – 9.9reb, 1.2ast, 11.3pts @ .545 ts%
PLAYOFFS – 34.3min, 6.3reb, 0.3ast, 8.3pts @ .630 ts%

At Guard and Forward, 6’5 and 210 lbs . . . . MARIO ELIE
SEASON per 36 – 3.7reb, 3.6ast, 13.5pts @ .631ts% (3.8x3pa @.398)
PLAYOFFS -- 28.1min, 2.8reb, 2.1ast, 9.1pts @ .643ts%

At Forward and Guard, 6’8 and 220 lbs . . . . BILLY OWENS
SEASON PER 36 – 7.9reb, 3.9ast, 15.7pts @ .523ts%

At Center and Forward, 6’9 and 240lbs . . . JAYSON WILLIAMS
SEASON PER 36 -- 15.6reb, 1.2ast, 13.3pts @ .482ts%


Our minutes rotation is based on three levels. First are our stars, they play their full share of playoff minutes they averaged with their respective teams (and we always try to have either Barkley or Smits or both on the floor since our other bigs are not prime scorers). Except for about the first 8 minutes of each half and in the final minutes when it's close and we aren't using matchups to control or take advantage of opposing players, usually 2 of our 3 stars are on the floor and one is resting with Smits taking an early break around the 8 minute mark unless he is dominating a matchup then Reggie or Charles taking a break when he comes back in and the other taking a break soon thereafter.

Barkley 39 mpg at both SF and PF (in our small lineup)
Reggie 38 mpg
Rik 32 mpg

Our next level are our 5 key roleplayers -- Nate McMillan who is our distributor and top perimeter defender, Kenny Smith who provide outstanding 3 point shooting and playmaking, Mario Elie who provides more outstanding 3 point shooting and very good defense, A.C.Green who is quick enough to cover small forwards and tough enough to defend centers and who provides outstanding defense and hustle, and Buck Williams who is another very good defender who is stronger and more physical, though not as quick as A.C. and who has a superior offensive post-up game if needed. These players rotate situatually and between them will play most of the remaining minutes. All probably average between 20 and 30 mpg for a total with the starters of about 235 minutes (if our key roleplayers average 25 each) out of the 240 minutes in a competitive playoff game. (rotation tightened)

Finally, Jayson Williams and Billy Owens are spot players. They each provide some outstanding skills -- Jayson is the NBA's best rebounder on a per minute basis and a very strong, physical, high energy player who can come in and push with anyone in the league or provide some nasty fouls if needed -- a bit raw offensively (think rookie DHoward) but athletic as hell. Billy Owens provides a do it all player who can play 3, 4, or 2 with (again) superb athleticism, very good ballhandling, and decent defense -- but limited shooting range or he would have become the star everyone thought he'd be. He comes in if we need more defensive size or an extra ballhandler at the 3 or to cover for anyone that is injured; As our 10th man, his versatility is his calling card.

[SamBone]

OK, I guess its game on, this should be fun!

The Boned Samuels

PG: M.Blaylock (33), E.Perry (15), S.Smith
SG: H.Hawkins (30), B.Phills (18), S.Smith
SF: G.Hill (35), S.Smith (13)
PF: C.Laettner (25), O.Thorpe (23)
C: A.Mourning (38), Laettner (5), Muresan (5)

Vs

PG: Nate McMillan, Kenny Smith
SG: Reggie Miller, Ellie
SF: Charles Barkley
PF: A.C. Green, Buck Williams, Jayson Williams, Billy Owens
C: Rick Smits

Offense
I personally think this is a team that fits in very well with each other. Zo was a BEAST in the post and Grant Hill (pre injuries) was looked at as a guy that could do it all. He was a point forward with great playmaking ability and offensive skills that could dominate games. Both my guards shot 3’s very well (Mookie 2nd most 3’s in the league and Hersey shot 44%) and Laettner had a very good jumper (and good passing BIG) and can draw his man away for the post allowing Zo more room to work.

I think this team would work very well in the triangle offense with Grant handling the ball a lot and using both Mookie and Hersey as 3 point shooters (plus S.Smith, Perry and even Phills all shot 3’s well). So Grant could either take his man, feed Zo in the post, hit Laettner for a mid range jumper or kick it to one of the 3 point shooters he will be surrounded by.

My bench is basically filled with solid guys that would also work well together. Elliot is a great energy spark plug off the bench the shot well and did a great job leading the Suns when KJ was out. S.Smith was a solid scorer who had a great handle (the season prior Miami used him at PG a lot) and passed very well for a wing. Phills, even though he was known as a defensive stopper, was solid on offense as well. Big Otis is my veteran presence who can teach my kids what winning is like. Otis played half the season as a starter for Houston then the 2nd half as a 6th man in Portland (was traded for Drexler). He was a great rebounder and defender who played great during the Championship season last year. Muresan had a good touch for a GIANT but despite his 56% shooting from the field, most of his damage will come on the offensive glass.

Defense

Zo, Grant and Mookie were all great defenders, plus Hawkins was above average. Our team will take a lot of pride in defense and should do pretty well limiting the opposition. Phills, our stopper, will play important minutes and always be guarding the other team’s best wing player. I do not think many wings will have a great series against my wing defenders (Hill, Phills, Hawkins, and Smith could all D up). Both of our PG’s were great defenders (Mookie was 1st team all defensive and Elliot was 6th in the league in steals while only logging 24 mpg). Laettner is really my only weaker defender (very good team defender) but Thorpe was excellent so no worries there either. Zo was still a pup and was still a few season away from his back to back DPOY awards, but he was a top notch defensive center his entire career (5th in blocks and 9th in defensive reb in 95) and BIG Gheorghe will not be pushed around by anyone. I personally think this team is the top defensive team in this game.

Position breakdown
PG’s: Nate/JET against Mookie/Socks:
Well my opposition is deciding to start a backup player at the PG spot to run his team. Nate was a solid combo guard off the bench and a great defensive guard, but as a ATL starting PG (who started 4.4% of his teams game in the given season) is a tad of a stretch in my opion. Also don’t be tricked by him using his per 36 stats when he only played a tad under 26 (15min per in playoffs no were near the fake numbers posted by pen). So his real stats were 5.2 ppg (.418 % shooting) with 5.3 asst, 3.8 reb and an impressive 2.1 steals. JET as a backup, is another thing I don’t understand, I wonder how that would fly with his ego? Considering he started for back to back championship teams and now has to take the back seat to a guy who didn’t start on his own team

Mookie on the other hand is playing his real life role as a 1st team all defensive PG who was 3rd in the NBA is 3 pointers and steals. As my 4th option he will get many open looks from 3. He gives me great spacing on offense and is a true leader. He was a great distributer, but mainly will be used for his 3 point shooting to stretch the floor and open things up for Zo and Hill

SG’s: Reggie/Ellie against HH/ Phills
Reggie was a great shooter. He was a great 3 point shooter (finished 5th in NBA behind my PG of course). But Reggie on D was a huge liability. He was long but pencil thin and got pushed around by almost everyone he guarded. Unlike his real life Pacers team, pen does not have the defenders around Reggie to help hide his inabilities.

My duo of Hersey and Phills will be able to do a decent job defending Reggie. Hersey was an underrated defender, and Phills was a stopper who

“Michael Jordan once said the 6-foot-5 Phills was one of the best defenders he ever faced.”

I also found this quote in a Sports Illustrated issue talking about Phills,

“His Airness has praised Phills's defense. So has Indiana guard Reggie Miller, whom Phills has muffled more than once. "I've done well against Reggie," Phills says. "He's so thin, I try to beat him up—not to hurt him; I lay on him, post him up on offense and try to tire him out so he's not as energized on offense."

Offensively Hersey was one of the most efficient scorers in the league in 1995. He had an astounding .623 true shooting percentage (.44% from3 which was 6th in NBA) With Reggie not able to get any help Hersey should be able to really do some damage.

SF’s: Chuck/Billy Owens against GHill/Smitty
The 31 year old “Round Mound of Rebound” playing SF is very odd to me. I am not knocking the player because being a Philly guy, watching Charles become a superstar was a big part of my youth, and he is one of my all time favorite players. I just think he is being misused and played out of position, and simply not able to play the SF position. A young Chuck couldn’t play the 3 so I am not sure how an older slower Chuck will do so. I really don’t know how I can compare the position matchup here because obviously the heavier Chuck will back down the leaner Hill (or Smitty) but on the other end of the court it will be even more comical with Chuck trying to guard these much quickers more agile great scorers. And playing Charles away from the rim, really isn’t his strenghth at all. The funny thing in this matchup is both my guys have the height advantage (Grant is 6’8 and Smith is 6’7) over the round 6’6 frame of Sir Charles who always played bigger then his size, but can he play smaller (actually skinnier)? And my guys are both actually wing players unlike Big Chuck so that in its own rite should win me the position matchup

PF’s: A.C./Buck/ Jayson Williams vs Laettner/Thorpe
This is the muck and grid position. My opponent seems to have a lot of bodies to toss out at this position (can’t get a true breakdown of min played). None of which, IMO, should have much of an impact on the series. Once again, Laettner gets an advantage. He is a better offensive player, a solid shot that will drawl out his defender, and he was a decent passer as a BIG. He has a 2 inch height advantage over AC, a 3 inch advantage over the 34 year old Buck Williams, and 2 inches over the raw yet to develop Jayson Williams who did basically nothing in 1995 playing the same role he will here. Again somehow my weakest position has turned into a huge advantage since I personally think Otis Thorpe is a better player then anyone my opponent is running at me

C’s: Smits vs Zo/Laettner/My Giant
Let me start this by saying I think Rick was under rated during his playing days. He is a solid BIG that could score. He was a decent defender (even though I though he should have been a better shot blocker since he was so big). He will have his hands full with Zo.
Zo was a beast in the paint, and usually excelled against bigger slower centers because of his quickness. And also take not that in the 95 playoffs when Rick had to guard offensive C’s he had a lot of trouble staying out of foul trouble (averaged over 4.5 fouls a game.

When he isn’t on the court, pen will try too run a few under sized guys and my much bigger guys. Which simply will not work!

Summary
My opponent has some really nice players, but I think has not done the greatest of jobs building a real working team. He has his best player playing out of position, and is forcing a guy who never was know for defense to be forced to guard wing players instead of banging in the post were he made his name. He then took another great player (but not a HOFer but should be IMO) and didn’t surround him with a defensive wing to help take the pressure off of him. He also is making a huge mistake and deciding to start a bench player who has never really stated regularly in the NBA (very good 3rd guard but far from a starter especially in an ATL) and benching a PG that was in the middle of leading his team to back to back championships. This is kind of like the Lakers deciding to not start Derek Fisher so they can use Jason Terry as their starting PG.

I have the better TEAM and mix of players that actually fit and work together.

[penbeast0]

Smits played 32.1 mpg during the playoffs if you want to fix that part of your writeup Sam.

I do, of course, use per 36 minute stats when comparing players head to head because what matters is what they do when on the floor; just like you have to adjust Wilt Chamberlain's 48.5 mpg down to comparable minutes to see how dominant he is. Otherwise it's just about minutes.

[SamBone]

Smits played 32.1 mpg during the playoffs if you want to fix that part of your writeup Sam.

guess basketball reference had some incorrect calculations. I will delete that line

[penbeast0]

SOBE (penbeast) v. BONED (Sambone)

SOBE’s strengths. Sobe has an awesome offensive team with good defensive role players around them. Our offensive stars are extremely efficient; in addition to the always dominating Charles Barkley, we also have Reggie Miller, Kenny Smith, and Mario Elie who all rank among the 10 most efficient scorers in the entire league due to their superlative 3 point shooting. Our defensive stoppers are also quite impressive with Nate McMillan earning all-Defense for the second year in a row, A.C Green and Buck Williams being perennial All-D candidates (5 awards between them) and Mario Elie being the top perimeter defender on the champion Rockets. Barkley is our defensive weakness (Larry Brown actually had Reggie and Rik playing good defense in Indiana -- 6th in the league!) but he is playing exactly where he played for Phoenix, at SF next to the same PF (A.C. Green), who is quick enough to cover Hill if Barkley is having trouble.

Our rebounding is brutal with Barkley dominating despite playing the season at the SF spot for Phoenix and McMillan, Green, Williams, and Smits all being above average (to say nothing of league per minute leader Jayson Williams). Our playmaking is excellent with McMillan being a 3 time top 10 assist leader in the NBA splitting time with champion PG Kenny Smith and every one of our rotation except Smits and Buck Williams having positive assist/turnover ratios (one of the things I focused on).

We are a veteran team with playoff tested stars who took their teams deep into the playoffs and our biggest stars, Charles Barkley and Reggie Miller, have well deserved reputations for super clutch playoff performances which this year translate into the best playoff numbers in the league with the sole exception of Hakeem and possibly Shaq. Barkley and Green’s Phoenix team took the champion Rockets to 7 games, Miller and Smits’s Pacers took the other finalist Magic to 7, and Smith and Elie’s Rockets won it all. That’s a ton of winning playoff moxie.

With that said, let’s look at our opponents using the same criteria. The Bones also feature 3 players that get star minutes and basically an 8 man rotation. Their stars are Zo, rookie Grant Hill, and Mookie Blaylock. Zo is a terrific player scoring 20ppg though an average rebounder (just under 10 a game). Of course, Smits scores more frequently (21.2/36 v. 20.1), rebounds about the same (9.1/36 v. 9.3) and turns the ball over less; Zo is more efficient (.593ts% to .572). Zo I also a much better defender although still very young (3rd season). Grant Hill is also very good offensively and (as a rookie) average defensively but can’t compare to Barkley on the offensive end (Barkley is still below average defensively of course). Barkley scores more (23.6/36 to 18.7), dominates the boards v. either Boned forward (11.4/36 to 6.0 or 8.0 for Laettner – A.C. Green is also clearly superior at 9.0/36), and Barkley even has a better A/T ratio (4.2ast, 2.3to v. 4.7ast, 2.7to) and of course Charles is more efficient too (.572 v. .541) with Charles also having much better shooting from outside (3.3x3@.338 v. 0.4@.148). As for comparing Mookie (the Boned’s 3rd leading shot taker) v. Reggie, it comes out equally badly for the Boned although Mookie is of course, again, the better defender. (Reggie 21.5pt/36 @ .620ts% v. Mookie 16.1@.531). Our offensive stars just plain dominate their main shooters though their shooters are better defenders. Still the defensive difference would have to be monstrous to overcome this huge disparity.

Looking at the role players, our secondary shooters are still better than their secondary shooters – Kenny Smith and Mario Elie are in the middle of several years of consistent top 10 efficiency ratings and score 14.9/36@.640ts% and 13.5@.631ts% v.Hersey Hawkins and Steve Smith 15.4@.622 and 17.6@.559 and Kenny and Mario are at least equal defensively. Our rotation bigs, A.C. Green and Buck Williams are better rebounders and defenders than Laettner and Thorpe, though Thorpe at least is a good scorer (9.0 and 9.9reb/36 v. 8.0 and 9.6) with Thorpe being unable to take Buck’s starting job in Portland despite the pressure on his coach of playing the guy they traded Drexler for – it’s especially key to note that Thorpe’s minutes decreased to 22/g in the playoffs. Finally, our defensive stopper, Nate McMillan, is a longer, quicker and better defender than Bobby Phills – fortunately neither play much of an offensive role as both shot under .500 ts% (Nate .496 v. Phills .477 – mainly due to Nate being able to shoot the 3 @ 2.7x3ps@.342 v. Phills’s 0.8x3@.345 with no year making over 0.5/36 to this point in his career ). And Nate McMillan, while his minutes were more limited with Gary Payton having a career year in Seattle, is still a player who is in his prime (30 with his second straight All-Defense team) and who, pre-Payton, was in the top 7 in the league in assists 3 straight years. And while Sam calls us small, his only real size behind Mourning is Muresan, a wonderful story and decent scorer but probably the single worst defensive player in the history of the NBA – he just couldn’t move well enough) – Laettner is slim and soft defensively. Thus, we not only have our primary scorers being far superior scorers, but our role players are better at their roles too.

Now for the subject that Sam most wishes we can avoid. PLAYOFFS. While Barkley, Miller, Smits, Green, K.Smith, and Elie were all key members of strong playoff teams with Barkley and Miller putting their teams on their backs and carrying them; the Boned Samuels were, well, boned in the playoffs. Looking at their entire 8 man rotation, they managed a total of . . . wait for it . . . 2 playoff victories as Charlotte and Cleveland lost their opening rounds 1-3, Atlanta and Portland were swept 0-3 (by the Suns), and Detroit and Minnesota failed to even make the playoffs. Nor did any of their players step it up in playoff time compared to their regular season numbers except maybe Bobby Phills who did bring his shooting up from tragic (.414fg%) to average (.442). Compare to Barkley and Reggie who raised both their scoring and their efficiency while carrying their teams down the stretch (Smits raised his efficiency but his average stayed about the same). THIS IS A PLAYOFF SERIES; SOBE HAS BEEN THERE AND PLAYED STRONGLY, the Boned team hasn’t.

So, in conclusion, while his stars play good defense, ours play much better offense, our roleplayers play their roles better, and most importantly, SOBE is a team built to win in the playoffs while rookie Grant Hill and his teammates are still a few years away.

[SamBone]

Looking at the role players, our secondary shooters are still better than their secondary shooters – Kenny Smith and Mario Elie are in the middle of several years of consistent top 10 efficiency ratings and score 14.9/36@.640ts% and 13.5@.631ts% v.Hersey Hawkins and Steve Smith 15.4@.622 and 17.6@.559 and Kenny and Mario are at least equal defensively.

I love you you flip flop your numbers to work in your behalf here. Hersey is my starting SG and if you are matching Miller up with Mookie, you must compare Heresy Hawkins (14.3 ppg @.640ts% ) with your other starting guard Nate McMillan (5.2 ppg @.496ts%)

Yes Mario and Kenny are efficient but are backups and not going to see many minutes considering Reggie will be playing his “playoff minutes” of 38 min so how much damage can Mario do only getting 10 minutes of action?

Our rotation bigs, A.C. Green and Buck Williams are better rebounders and defenders than Laettner and Thorpe, though Thorpe at least is a good scorer (9.0 and 9.9reb/36 v. 8.0 and 9.6) with Thorpe being unable to take Buck’s starting job in Portland despite the pressure on his coach of playing the guy they traded Drexler for– it’s especially key to note that Thorpe’s minutes decreased to 22/g in the playoffs..

So you are forgetting the scoring that Laettner brings? (17.2/36) add in Thorpe (16.1/36) vs AC (12.3/36) and Buck (11.3/36) I think the combined 9.7/36 advantage makes up for the 1.3/36 rebounding advantage you have. I don’t know about you, but I prefer the extra 10 points and 1 less rebound, but that is me. Not sure why you think me having Thorpe playing backup minutes like he did in real life is negative because you have the guy that started over him playing backup minutes for you? If anything I put players in the position they played in that season and you use a guy that got starters minutes and try to get him to adjust his game and play a role that he didn’t play. And considering I have Thorpe playing 23 minutes, I will take his 22 minutes in the playoffs were he scored 10.3 ppg @ .571 fg%. Basically the exact role he will be playing for me.

Finally, our defensive stopper, Nate McMillan, is a longer, quicker and better defender than Bobby Phills.

Not really sure how this is relevant at all considering your “stopper” is your starting PG and mine is used in his real role at guarding the opponents top scorer so he will be defending Reggie a role that he did very well in real life.

And Nate McMillan, while his minutes were more limited with Gary Payton having a career year in Seattle, is still a player who is in his prime (30 with his second straight All-Defense team) and who, pre-Payton, was in the top 7 in the league in assists 3 straight years.

Nate was 2nd team All Defensive in 1995(and in 1994), lucky for me the guy that was 1st team all defensive PG is the guy he is matched up against (Mookie Blaylock was 1st team in both seasons). And FYI those 3 straight seasons that Nate was “top 7” in assists were 7, 8 and 9 year before 1995, My guy was ranked 8th in the current season, 2nd last season and 6th 3 years ago. And also don’t forget the HUGE role Otis Thorpe played in the 1994 Championship season (playoff stats 11.3 ppg, 9.9 reb, .567 fg%)

Now for the subject that Sam most wishes we can avoid. PLAYOFFS. While Barkley, Miller, Smits, Green, K.Smith, and Elie were all key members of strong playoff teams with Barkley and Miller putting their teams on their backs and carrying them; the Boned Samuels were, well, boned in the playoffs.

You do realize that you are bragging about your “winner” when you have the 2 best players in NBA history that never won a Champioship! You do have 2 guys on your bench that have rings, but again Kenny is playing a role that he never played and Ellie isn’t getting the minutes he did when he was successful. Green did win 2 rings 8 and 9 years ago. Yes my team is young and I can not use their future success because it has not happened, but your main guys have not won a title either (Green’s was a long time ago with HOFers all around him)

Our defensive stoppers are also quite impressive with Nate McMillan earning all-Defense for the second year in a row, A.C Green and Buck Williams being perennial All-D candidates (5 awards between them)

We already stated how Mookie’s 1st team awards trump Nate’s 2nd team awards in both the previous 2 seasons.

Not sure how much weight should be put on the old awards that were received when both A.C. (2nd team back in 1989) and Buck (2nd team back in 1988, 1st team in 90 and 91, then 2nd team in 1992) were much much younger then they are in the current season. Not sure how well they were able to keep up with the 25 year old Laettner or the 24 year old Zo (since they would need to play C when Smits is out of the game)

[penbeast0]

Sam is using a debate tactic called "diversion" or "distraction" -- you pull out small points from an opponent's argument and debate them rather than directly answering his strongest arguments. I looked at player's roles and compared defensive stoppers to defensive stoppers and shooters to shooters trying to be more accurate rather than compare strictly by position. I felt this was reasonable since both teams use their top 3 bench players for 20+ minutes a game according to our writeups (not 10 minutes a game for Mario Elie any more then is was 22 minutes a game for Rik Smits); nearly the same minutes as the 4th and 5th starters. But I don't want to argue the distraction so instead let me say this:

(1) Our entire lineup 1-10 as a lineup scores more points than their lineup (calculating minutes as listed using averages of 25 minutes for my 4-8 guys and the less than 10 leftover minutes for Jayson at center since we don't use a rigid rotation)

(2) Our entire lineup is A LOT more efficient scoring those points

(3) Our entire lineup outrebounds Sam's lineup

(4)Our entire lineup is a better passing lineup with similar assist number while committing less turnovers

There. Now we don't have to worry about whether your 4th option outscores my 4th option while ignoring the 1st, second, and 3rd option. Sam's lineup is better defensively mainly because of Zo who is terrific but our offensive edge is bigger than their defensive edge.

Now for his other nitpicking. Some of our awards are in the past for our 30 year old players. But those players are still in their primes; only Buck might be considered to have slipped a little and no one has suggested he has slipped defensively. It's important that he beat out Thorpe for the starting job in Portland and increased his minutes at Thorpe's expense in the playoffs because Thorpe's offensive numbers are better which means that it must be because of Buck's defensive edge an leadership. Sam has some very good defenders, Zo and Mookie may be the two best on the court though Mookie is better against small quick guards, but the next 4 best defenders on the court are Nate, AC, Buck, and Mario as Grant Hill as a rookie was inconsistent defensively though he showed promise. Nor is there a problem with size in the center matchup since Zo is strong but not particularly tall and Thorpe played a lot less center than Buck or A.C. did. In fact, the real matchup issues is the 7-4 Smits.

We have several very good defensive players who can cover for our offensive stars as needed and who help maintain a team focus on defense with their effort and leadership.

Third, he says that our stars, who he doesn't deny have great clutch and playoff reps, didn't win any titles. Admittedly, with Michael Jordan taking 6 and Hakeem the other 2 during their peaks, there weren't a lot of titles to go around but our stars did lead their teams deep into the playoffs consistently. His stars didn't. Again, our lineup shows consistent playoff winners 1-8 with two titlists, four other players who led their teams past the first round and only lost to the eventual finalists taking them both to 7 games, plus two other players who were key features on playoff teams. Sam's team features a totle of TWO WINS in the playoffs, one by 8th man Bobby Phill's Cavs.

Our team has strong playoff players who raised their games and led their teams deep into the playoffs. Sam's team doesn't have that. That will be the biggest key!

Finally, he suggests that the fact that he has reserves coming off the bench makes them better bench players than our starters coming off the bench. This is just a bit silly. College stars become role players in the NBA; an ATL has a higher level of talent with less than 1/2 as many teams sharing a full league's talent. Thus many starters should be coming off the bench. The question is whether the personality of the starter shows he is a "me" guy or a "team" guy. I think Buck Williams, who willigly sacrificed scoring and stardom on coming to Portland; and Kenny Smith, who changed his game to become an off the ball shooter to space for Hakeem, both have shown they are willing to sacrific personal numbers and roles for the team. There should be no problems ther; and Nate was an outstanding starter for many years before sharing time with Gary Payton as both a starter and a 6th man. There should be no problem with him returning to the starting role since his defensive ability to cover either backcourt player is what the team needs.

[Snakebites]

Apologies for the late writeup. Trying to set a weekday deadline was bad judgement on my part. I would like voting to begin tomorrow night at 10 EST. poop, if you are reading this and do not feel you can complete a writeup by then, feel free to come on here and plead your case for more time.

Snakebites

PG: Tim Hardaway (36 minutes)/John Starks (12 minutes)
SG: Nick Anderson (30 minutes)/John Starks (18 minutes)
SF: Toni Kukoc (32 minutes)/ Robert Horry (16 minutes)
PF: Tyrone Hill (35 minutes)/ Robert Horry (10 minutes)/ Roy Tarpley (3 minutes)
C: David Robinson (38 minutes)/Roy Tarpley (10 minutes)

vs.

poodamoop

Shaq(36)/Miller(12)
Robinson(31)/Mason(17)
Ceballos(34)/Mason(14)
Sprewell(36)/Davis(12)
Skiles(32)/Murdock(16)

Obviously in a matchup like this its difficult not to look at the two Hall of Fame centers involved here. They both jump of the page and their resumes speak for themselves. There is, however, one primary difference. The David Robinson of this year is at the absolute pinnacle of his career, while Shaq, though already a dominant force in his own right was not fully mature as a basketball player. Though his blocked shot stats are impressive, this is well before Shaquille O’Neal hooked up with Phil Jackson and became one of the better defensive centers in the game. His weaknesses defensively, particularly in guarding offensive centers with range, overall mobility, and (gulp) pick and roll defense were more readily apparent at this stage in his career. In spite of his presence and the able help of a staunch defender like Horace Grant, the Magic were a mediocre defensive team in the selected year, though the help of the brilliant Penny Hardaway and an able bodied supporting cast enabled them to build a terrific offense. When looking at the head to head matchups between these two players in this year and the two flanking it, it reveals that the jumpshooting David Robinson who thrived in the high post had no difficulty putting together numerous terrific 30+ point performances against the young Shaquille O’Neal. Shaq had some nice performances of his own but from an offensive perspective its tough to say that he had a larger impact than David Robinson in games of the selected years. Throw in David Robinson’s top level help defense and I think it becomes fairly straightforward to determine who will have the larger impact on the series. David Robinson is every bit the offensive threat Shaq is and Shaq is poorly suited to guard him. We project an offensively productive series for Shaq, but he loses this matchup.

When looking at the rest of the team, what jumps out about poopdamoop’s team is an impressive collection of high volume scorers. Clifford Robinson’s range and decent defensive abilities make him a nice complement to a young Shaquille O’Neal, but this comes at a price that can at times be difficult to swallow. His efficiency is poor at the power forward position, and perhaps more damningly, his rebounding is horrible. Matched up against the more conventional and defensively apt Tyrone Hill (who is one of the league’s better rebounders, with a whopping 5 rebound advantage over his counterpart) and this becomes a particularly difficult pill to swallow. Cedric Ceballos is a more extreme example of such a trade off, as he was always known as a score first, pass/defend second (if indeed, at all) type player. As a result he was traded away from the Lakers for the more balanced Robert Horry AS SOON as they aquired Shaq and desired a more balanced team around him. They felt that Ceballos’s style did not fit with the Shaq-centric offensive scheme they were hoping to build. For all of his ball handling Ceballos couldn’t even manage 2 assists per game, and his defense was always worse than suspect. Lastly, we come to Latrell Sprewell, our opponent’s second best player. I question the fit of Sprewell with Cedric Ceballos and also wonder if his efficiency will be a factor here. Their best perimeter scorer is Scott Skiles. Their terrific tandem up front is covered by our two most effective defensive players and David Robinson will be ideally suited to impact their slashing offensive players as well. Overall, I see a team with some very interesting offensive capabilities but also some flaws which may make it difficult for them to perform optimally as a unit. There is only 1 ball, as cliché as that sounds.

In addition to the unhindered abilities of David Robinson, we believe that our team, while perhaps not having the raw firepower of our opponent’s, has more balance and will be more effective as a unit. A major reason for this is the matchup between Tim Hardaway and Scott Skiles, IMO the largest mismatch of the series. Hardaway will be able to get whatever he wants offensively against Skiles, both for himself and for others. This enhances his partnership with David Robinson and further enables him find outside shots for Nick Anderson and opportunities for others as well. Indeed, he could prove to be the key in this series. Our offense also features terrific role players who have proven their ability to be supporting pieces on winning teams, notably Toni Kukoc, John Starks, and Robert Horry. Our team has a healthy amount of defense, outside shooting, passing, and overall balance that should make it a more cohesive unit than poopdamoop’s team.

It should also be noted that we outrebound poopdamoop’s team at every position except small forward (and center, but let us not forget D Rob played with Rodman that entire season, you will note that the next season without Dennis DRob outrebounded Shaq), though with Hill’s huge advantage over Cliffy means our forwards will still outrebound his, even with Mason helping out off the bench.

Overall, it’s a question of the individual scoring ability of poopdamoop’s team vs. the defensive ability, passing, shooting, and overall balance of Team Snakebites. Vote with your instincts here.

[SamBone]

Sam is using a debate tactic called "diversion" or "distraction" -- you pull out small points from an opponent's argument and debate them rather than directly answering his strongest arguments. I looked at player's roles and compared defensive stoppers to defensive stoppers and shooters to shooters trying to be more accurate rather than compare strictly by position. I felt this was reasonable since both teams use their top 3 bench players for 20+ minutes a game according to our writeups (not 10 minutes a game for Mario Elie any more then is was 22 minutes a game for Rik Smits); nearly the same minutes as the 4th and 5th starters. But I don't want to argue the distraction so instead let me say this

No I am simply pointing out the invalid points you are making. You are compairing your starting PG to my defensive wing off the bench. You are averaging out that same “starting” pg’s stats to what they would be if he really played the minutes you think he can play, not the actual minutes he did. You say your starting SG will be playing 38 minutes, and his backup will be playing 20 min (not sure how the hell that can happen). That is why every team except yours posted minutes breakdown.

The bottom line is I built a TEAM the FITS together and plays the same roles in real life that they will play on my team. Sure I could have drafted starters that put up better numbers and have them playing as reserves, but that does not work in real life or these games. I built a TEAM, not a group of guys that can adjust to the role I make up for them. I have guys playing real roles which they played in real life.

[penbeast0]

explained yet again later