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me v. Snake

Bring it.

I have to say, this is the lamest Finals since Spurs/Cavs. With that being said, I will be on hand next week to vote.

Snakebites Vs TMACFORMVP

Our Rotation:

Billups (30)/MRR (18)
Drexler (34)/Dandridge (14)
Dandridge (20)/English (28)
Pettit (35)/Wallace (13)
Robinson (36)/Wallace (12)

Looks like I'll need to beat yet another friend in order to take this title.

As the team has in the entire tournament up to this point, we will rely on our balanced attack on both ends of the floor to control the game.

Defense: One would be hard pressed to find a true weakness in our defensive system. Pettit is our weakest defensive starter, but we have a strong man defender in Rasheed Wallace playing the role of 6th man, and possibly the best defensive anchor in this game righht next to him. Though our opponent has a pair of front court players who have the ability to hit the jumpshot, we're fairly confident that our team has the ability up front to hang with them defensively, and neither of their players up front have the ability to take over the game with dominant scoring.

Indeed, our opponents have only one player with such an ability, and that is Rick Barry. Rick Barry had speed, passing, and, certainly at the selected peak, a frightful ability to take over the game. As far as epic scoring small forwards, however, this isn't team Snakebites' first time to the rodeo. Bob Dandridge was a strong defensive player with length and speed, and athleticism, and he found himself equal to the task of guarding the likes of Julius Erving and John Havlicek. Barry will be effective, but not efficient enough in this matchup (with both team defense and man defense to throw against him) to carry his team far enough against a balanced attack like the one we will put out on the court.

In the backcourt, we won't bore you with too many details. Williams is one of the greatest modern era point guards, but Billups is no slouch defensively and we'll use MRR to further disrupt his offensive game in certain situations. Artest in selected years is not a worrisome force offensively, and a combination of Drexler/Dandridge will do a solid enough job against the sharp shooting Dandridge.

Overall, we see nothing in the matchups to suggest our team can't hold our own defensively.

Offensively, the picture looks even more dire. Our team simply has too great a variety of ways to beat an opponent. When Artest isn't on the floor, perimeter defense becomes a serious problem. Even when he is, he can only impact the man he's guarding. Clyde Drexler and Alex English supply a relentless attack on the basket that few defenses would find themselves equal to the task of containing, and even when one of them is on the pine the effective midrange shooting Dandrige (who is a known playoff performer in selected years) is out there demanding attention defensively. Billups and Rasheed draw opposing defenders out of the perimeter. All in all, an extremely effective offensive attack.

Scary thing is, all of this goes without mentioning my most distinguished offensive weapon, the starting front court. David Robinson and Bob Pettit both demand a great deal of attention from under the basket all the way out to midrange. Robinson no longer has the pressure of being the undisputed number one option, and Pettit is a known playoff and clutch performer. This opponent is better equipped than most to deal with this particular challenge, with strong defenders at both positions.

It pains me deeply, however, to remind opponents that in a two year peak Bill Walton narrowly met the minimal criteria in terms of regular season games played, and while he was phenomenal in games played, he did not play in every playoff game, either. If he is limited in his abilities by injuries or, heaven forbid, actually misses games, that posses an even more serious problem for TMAC's defense.

I'll leave it up to the voters to decide whether or not to factor in Walton's injury issues, but regardless, I think my team is more balanced and far more efficient offensively, and the tools in our arsenal are simply too diverse for our opponent to handle. Our defense, on the other hand, should be equal to the task of limiting Barry and the rest of the offensive attack of our opponents.

Gonna just do something quick. Snakebites, probably my favorite person to talk to in these games. He's got terrific knowledge of the game, obviously knows the formula that wins these games, and has once again built a fantastic team that's likely been the favorite since the competition started. Always fun when you're facing a worthy competitor, especially a friend where can have a little competitive banter. I wish the best of luck to you in this series, and may the best team win. Which my team FULLY intends to do so.

1. Deron Williams outplays Chaucney Billups.

12 Career Games:

*this even includes Deron Williams rookie season.

They even faced off in the playoffs last season (before we say Chauncey has declined, do keep in mind he averaged a career high in PPG last season, nearly 20 per game).



Deron will have a huge impact in this series.

2. David Robinson

I don't think anyone has truly addressed this issue. Robinson is a fantastic player, and one whom in his prime had as much impact on a game defensively and offensively as any player in NBA history. So, then why does he not get mentioned in the same breath as what is widely believed to be the top 5 centers in NBA history? It's because of unfortunately his poor play in the playoffs. These are the same two seasons in which Robinson got owned by two of his contemporaries in Hakeem Olajuwon and Karl Malone.

I think everyone knows about what Hakeem did to DRob (35-13-5 with 4 blocks, and outscoring him 81-41 in the final two deciding games), but people don't realize the effect Malone's defense had on Robinson. Check out their playoff series:



The bottom line is Robinson fails to play up to his peers. In this series, he's facing Bill Walton. I don't want to flat out say that Walton is better, but this is a guy that's not only on his level, but in fact a guy that went toe to toe with Kareem in the playoffs. Granted, Kareem in their playoff series still had a huge series, many who watched the entire series claims that Walton was the one that controlled the game for every possession.

I like this quote from Bill Simmons book of basketball:

Imagine you become GM of your favorite team and were given the power to pull any NBA center from a time machine, then stick that player on your team -- only his career would unfold exactly like it did when he played. Under these rules, would you rather have fourteen quality years of Robinson or two and a half transcendent years from Walton (one and half half as a starter, one as a sixth man)? I take Walton, and here's why: for that one transcendent year when we catch lightning in a bottle with him, I'm guaranteed a title as long I flank him with a good rebounder, a decent shooter and quick guards. How many players guaranteed you an NBA title? Jordan, Bird, Magic, Russell, Kareem, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Moses, Wilt (if his head was on straight), Mikan (as long it was early fifties) . . really, that's the whole list.

....

For about eleven months from March 29th, 1977 to March 1, 1978, including the '77 playoffs, Portland finished 70-15 in an especially competitive era. And everything -- everything -- ran through Walton. Maybe some centers were better in specific areas, but none was the best passer, rebounder, shot blocker, outlet passer, defensive anchor, crunch time scorer, emotional leader, and undisputed "guy we revolve our offense around" for their team at the same time. If you made a checklist of what you want from a center, he's the only player who gets check marks in every category.

I mean, if we put these two together in a playoff series, I'd question if Robinson would actually be able to outplay him. Walton was clutch, Robinson was not, Walton was everything for a championship team, Robinson was not. Walton held his own against the likes of Kareem, while Robinson could not against Hakeem (in a playoff setting). In their respective peaks, Walton was comparable offensively, if not an edge with his passing from the high post, and comprable defensively.

If Walton is truly an "injury risk" which is entirely fair (even though he meets game requirements, and ANYONE else that meets those same requirements but plays the same amount if not less than Walton in their respective two year peak doesn't receive that same double standard, i.e. Baylor or Yao in past series); then what does that make Robinson's playoff struggles?

If we don't trust Walton's health, nor should we Robinson's proven track record against comparable/superior centers. The same Bill Walton that also played an entire playoff run, averaged 19/19/5 with 4 blocks in the Finals, and a 20/23/8 and 7 block game in the deciding game to clinch the championship for the Blazers.

If this series is close, I trust Walton far more in the deciding game, than I do with Robinson.

3. Rest of the Perimeter

While we've already gone over the advantage of Deron over Billups, and the main matchup in the middle, we ask of what about the Artest/Drexler, and Dandridge/Barry matchup.

Oddly enough, it's quite similar, except we feel Barry has a greater ability to dominate a series than Drexler (again, 30/6/6 while leading his team to the champion? Give me that over advanced stats any day of the week), while Artest is a more superior defender to put against Drexler (that's subjective however), but Artest in his peak was considered to be in the class of Moncrief's sort defensively. He had the size, lateral quickness, and intensity/toughness defensively to guard the likes of ANY perimeter player. Again, as mentioned in previous series, Artest during his two year peak held Kobe Bryant, and Tracy McGrady to sub 40% shooting. Even if you were to include players like Pierce, Carter, Iverson, Allen, Redd, their overall shooting % would dip to under 40% from the field (this is a true fact, not stating this would happen, lol).

Artest and Dandridge have similar roles in the offense, subjugated to spotting up from superior players, and cleaning up couple of garbage possessions. In terms of volume, both output similar amounts. Neither of their offense will determine the outcome of the series.

Snake counters the "Barry effect" by going right at him with Alex English. That brings it's own matchup advantages, but it also brings defensive holes in Snake's team as well. Barry will go off against English. Alex wasn't a bad defender, but he wasn't great either, and that's enough for Barry to take over a series. I think that's the last thing Snake would want. English will score on Barry no doubt, but Barry is more dimensional in his game, he'll pick apart the game with his passing, AND scoring. I think this would be the same even if Drexler were to handle that responsibility.

He described English's game as "was a lanky forward who never seemed to get hot -- he'd score 7-8 points per quarter and end up around 30 every game, only you barely noticed him." English was sound, Barry was dominant. So if they do find themselves matching up against eachother, if Deron's rolling, Walton is playing standstill with Robinson, and add that with a dominating series by Barry, the offensive firepower is most definitely there.

4. Defensively

--> We're fine with Walton on Robinson.
--> We've gone over Artest's defensive prowess in the past, and there's not much better to put on Drexler. He'll have a good series, but it'll be tough, no mistake about that.
--> When English is in the game, we won't stop him, we admit that, but we counter that with what is likely to be superior production from Barry.
--> Deron on Billups, as noted, Deron has the size to defend Billups, and that's shown in his FG% when playing Deron (even his 3 pt% as well).
--> Pettit should have a nice series, but Cowens intensity defensively , and his knack for getting under players skin, we're completely fine with single coverage there as well. And when Cowens is out, we bring in another elite defender in Nance, who should have a more profound effect on the series than Sheed.

Also, it'll be interesting to see how Pettit/Robinson work as both share similar spots on the floor, from mid-range an in. That's quite similar to Drexler, and Dandridge's game as well. That brings up the spacing issue, as Billups in the starting lineup is the only one with elite shooting range. I understand the notion that since Robinson or Pettit weren't post players so there's no need for elite spacing, but spacing could also help avoid issues of players getting in each others way, with those that share similar spots on the floor. If MRR is in the game, we'll no doubt zone up, and force them to beat us from the perimeter.

Overall, I think why Snakebites has such a terrific team is because he has tremendous balance, with both offense/defense from the perimeter and post options. However in this series, Barry will be the most dominant offensive player (especially when English is in the game, which is expected to happen in a decent amount), Deron will outplay Billups, not only because of their head to head matchups, but because he's a better player. Drexler should have a nice series, but ultimately with Artest checking him, not enough of one to give Snakes team a perimeter edge. Upfront, Cowens/Pettit is an interesting matchup, they have similar roles, and similar games, and while Pettit should have the edge, as he's greater in volume, we feel confident Cowens can limit his averages.

Walton v. Robinson is the interesting one, and one that's been for the most part discussed. Similar players with weaknesses, Walton with his durability (while Robinson was durable), and Robinson's with his lack of "take over" in big games (which Walton was known for). I personally think with Walton still meeting the game requirement, as it is for any other player, deemed to be not much an issue. However voters can interpret that anyway they'd like, but from a rules perspective, Robinson's issue might be more pressing issue.

I'll leave it with this. In a close series, I trust Barry and Walton to close it out over the duo Snake has in Drexler and Robinson.

It's time for Walton to win one of these games. Best of luck Snake, and let the best team win.

1) Granted, David Robinson isn't exactly a takeover guy in the playoffs. We'll own up to that. But lets be very clear here about what this actually means for our series.

For the Spurs in his prime, he second best player was Sean Elliot, and his supporting players were guys like Avery Johnson and Vinny Del Negro. Not a horrible supporting cast, but its pretty clear who the opposing defenses had to focus on. In this matchup? Well, we've got Clyde Drexler and Bob Pettit, two guys who most definitely were "take over" players. David Robinson is a supporting player in this offense, and this not only takes pressure off of him (which could make him more efficient) but it also reduces the effect of his "lack of step-upedness".

So what does my opponent's revelation about DRob's playoff reputation mean for the outcome of this series? The answer, it would seem, is not much. Walton's injury issues, on the other had, could be a serious problem for our opponents.

2) Barry can take games over, no doubt about that. Probably better than any individual player that I have. But my offense, simply put, is far more balanced. Barry's the only one in his starting lineup who scored more than 20 points per game, and certainly the only one who can take over a game. We've got Pettit, Drexler, Robinson, and English who provide a particularly potent offensive force, and our supporting cast is equal to our opponents.

Furthermore, what is the one thing you want to do with a teams' undisputed number one option? Turn him into a volume scorer. If you can do that, you'll more often than not win. Unfortunately, even in his peak year Barry boasted an uninspired TS% of 50%, and though I'm generally loathe to bring that stat up, I think its particularly applicable when one considers the extent to which TMAC's offense relies on Barry. We've also got the capable Dandridge guarding him a considerably large portion of the time and Barry doesn't exactly have strong spacing around him, either.

Best of luck to TMAC, may the best team win.

We can let voting begin. I'll just do a quick rebuttal.

As for the first point, I think we've addressed the points about Robinson in the playoffs. It's true he was the focal point of the offense, and lacked in supporting cast compared to other greats, but wouldn't the same logic apply in the regular season too? I think the bottom line is that when the pressure has increased, Robinson has crumbled, that being regardless of whomever his teammates were.

It's true Barry is the only "20 PPG" scorer in my starting lineup (even though Barry is more a 30 PPG scorer), we could argue that makes our team more balanced. Deron, Cowens, and Walton were all 18 PPG+ scorers, heck even Artest averaged over 18 PPG as well. We could flip that and say around a dominant player like Barry, it wouldn't have been wise to grab more "scorers." If we look at RAW point per game totals, our starting lineups still boasts roughly 100 PPG, then add two more "20 PPG" guys in Nance and Petrovic in our rotation, our offensive firewpower will not be a problem. All these players are capable of scoring 20 on any give night.

VOTING CAN BEGIN!

I am going with Snake on this one. I think that using Bill Simmons and having Ron Artest on your team is two knocks, and then the fact that we are using 2-year peaks and Walton's efficacy goes down a little bit, at least for me. Knock him all you want, but because of durability, Robinson is the best big left in the game. This is definitely one of the closer ATL Finals we've had. Good luck to the both of you in whoever decides to vote next.

Unfortunately for TMAC, my problems with Walton are still relevant . . . to me if not to anyone else. Without him, it's Cowens and Nance which is pretty damn good, especially with Sabonis taking some of the extra minutes however.

Robinson actually loses less in the playoffs than Pettit though Pettit did famously take over the 4th quarter of the game 7 v. Boston to an extent few players have ever matched. And Robinson isn't going to have huge problems defensively with Walton/Cowens (maybe with Sabonis) the way he did with Hakeem. Overall, it's pretty even inside though intangibles and cohesiveness favor Snake.

I think the Chauncey/Deron matchup is pretty much a draw.

That leaves the wing matchups. Artest/Barry is inefficient and while Drazen is, he's also an even worse defender than Barry. I favor Drexler/Dandridge/English quite easily here.

So, my vote goes to Snakebites.

Game Seven. Series Tied 3-3

Score 87-87

00:29 - [TMAC] Deron Williams Bad Pass - Turnover (4 TOV)
00:17 - [SNAKE] David Robinson Layup: Blocked (Walton 4 Blocks)
00:16 - [TMAC] Dave Cowens Rebound (8 RBS)
00:03 - [TMAC] Rick Barry Driving Layup: Missed (23 PTS)
00:03 - [SNAKE] David Robinson Rebound (11 RBS)
00:01 - [SNAKE] Bob Pettit Jump Shot: Missed (14 PTS)
00:00 End of Q4

....

OT1

00:45 - [TMAC] - Ron Artest Foul: Personal (6 PF)
00:45 - [TMAC] - Ron Artest Ejected
00:45 - [SNAKE 96-95] - Clyde Drexler Free Throw 1 of 2 (17 PTS)
00:45 - [SNAKE 97-95] - Clyde Drexler Free Throw 2 of 2 (18 PTS)
00:33 - [TMAC 97-97] - Bill Walton Hook Shot: Made (24 PTS)
00:19 - [SNAKE] - Rasheed Wallace Deep 3: Missed (6 PTS)
00:19 [TMAC] - Timeout - 20 seconds
00:14 - [TMAC] - Drazen Petrovic Bad Pass - Turnover (1 TO) (Dandridge 1 STL)
00:09 - [SNAKE 100-97] - Chauncey Billups 3 Point Attempt: Made (18 PTS)
00:09 - [TMAC] Timeout - 20 seconds
00:06 - [TMAC 99-100] - Deron Williams Jump Shot: Made (14 PTS)
00:06 - [SNAKE] Timeout - 20 seconds
00:06 - [SNAKE] Rasheed Wallace replaced by Bob Pettit
00:04 - [TMAC] Dave Cowens Foul: Personal (3 PF)
00:04 - [SNAKE] Bob Pettit Free Throw 1 of 2: Missed
00:04 - [SNAKE 101-99] Bob Pettit Free Throw 2 of 2 (15 PTS)
00:00 - [TMAC 101-101] Bill Walton Hook Shot: Made (26 PTS) (Deron Williams - 13 AST)
00:00 [SNAKE] David Robinson Foul: Personal (4 PF)
00:00 [TMAC 102-101] Bill Walton Free Throw 1 of 1 (27 PTS)

00:00 End Period

Snakebites in a 7 game thriller, i guess...

Gotta vote Snake here.

lukekarts wrote:Game Seven. Series Tied 3-3

Score 87-87

00:29 - [TMAC] Deron Williams Bad Pass - Turnover (4 TOV)
00:17 - [SNAKE] David Robinson Layup: Blocked (Walton 4 Blocks)
00:16 - [TMAC] Dave Cowens Rebound (8 RBS)
00:03 - [TMAC] Rick Barry Driving Layup: Missed (23 PTS)
00:03 - [SNAKE] David Robinson Rebound (11 RBS)
00:01 - [SNAKE] Bob Pettit Jump Shot: Missed (14 PTS)
00:00 End of Q4

....

OT1

00:45 - [TMAC] - Ron Artest Foul: Personal (6 PF)
00:45 - [TMAC] - Ron Artest Ejected
00:45 - [SNAKE 96-95] - Clyde Drexler Free Throw 1 of 2 (17 PTS)
00:45 - [SNAKE 97-95] - Clyde Drexler Free Throw 2 of 2 (18 PTS)
00:33 - [TMAC 97-97] - Bill Walton Hook Shot: Made (24 PTS)
00:19 - [SNAKE] - Rasheed Wallace Deep 3: Missed (6 PTS)
00:19 [TMAC] - Timeout - 20 seconds
00:14 - [TMAC] - Drazen Petrovic Bad Pass - Turnover (1 TO) (Dandridge 1 STL)
00:09 - [SNAKE 100-97] - Chauncey Billups 3 Point Attempt: Made (18 PTS)
00:09 - [TMAC] Timeout - 20 seconds
00:06 - [TMAC 99-100] - Deron Williams Jump Shot: Made (14 PTS)
00:06 - [SNAKE] Timeout - 20 seconds
00:06 - [SNAKE] Rasheed Wallace replaced by Bob Pettit
00:04 - [TMAC] Dave Cowens Foul: Personal (3 PF)
00:04 - [SNAKE] Bob Pettit Free Throw 1 of 2: Missed
00:04 - [SNAKE 101-99] Bob Pettit Free Throw 2 of 2 (15 PTS)
00:00 - [TMAC 101-101] Bill Walton Hook Shot: Made (26 PTS) (Deron Williams - 13 AST)
00:00 [SNAKE] David Robinson Foul: Personal (4 PF)
00:00 [TMAC 102-101] Bill Walton Free Throw 1 of 1 (27 PTS)

00:00 End Period

That ref is blind.

Miller4ever wrote:

lukekarts wrote:Game Seven. Series Tied 3-3

Score 87-87

00:29 - [TMAC] Deron Williams Bad Pass - Turnover (4 TOV)
00:17 - [SNAKE] David Robinson Layup: Blocked (Walton 4 Blocks)
00:16 - [TMAC] Dave Cowens Rebound (8 RBS)
00:03 - [TMAC] Rick Barry Driving Layup: Missed (23 PTS)
00:03 - [SNAKE] David Robinson Rebound (11 RBS)
00:01 - [SNAKE] Bob Pettit Jump Shot: Missed (14 PTS)
00:00 End of Q4

....

OT1

00:45 - [TMAC] - Ron Artest Foul: Personal (6 PF)
00:45 - [TMAC] - Ron Artest Ejected
00:45 - [SNAKE 96-95] - Clyde Drexler Free Throw 1 of 2 (17 PTS)
00:45 - [SNAKE 97-95] - Clyde Drexler Free Throw 2 of 2 (18 PTS)
00:33 - [TMAC 97-97] - Bill Walton Hook Shot: Made (24 PTS)
00:19 - [SNAKE] - Rasheed Wallace Deep 3: Missed (6 PTS)
00:19 [TMAC] - Timeout - 20 seconds
00:14 - [TMAC] - Drazen Petrovic Bad Pass - Turnover (1 TO) (Dandridge 1 STL)
00:09 - [SNAKE 100-97] - Chauncey Billups 3 Point Attempt: Made (18 PTS)
00:09 - [TMAC] Timeout - 20 seconds
00:06 - [TMAC 99-100] - Deron Williams Jump Shot: Made (14 PTS)
00:06 - [SNAKE] Timeout - 20 seconds
00:06 - [SNAKE] Rasheed Wallace replaced by Bob Pettit
00:04 - [TMAC] Dave Cowens Foul: Personal (3 PF)
00:04 - [SNAKE] Bob Pettit Free Throw 1 of 2: Missed
00:04 - [SNAKE 101-99] Bob Pettit Free Throw 2 of 2 (15 PTS)
00:00 - [TMAC 101-101] Bill Walton Hook Shot: Made (26 PTS) (Deron Williams - 13 AST)
00:00 [SNAKE] David Robinson Foul: Personal (4 PF)
00:00 [TMAC 102-101] Bill Walton Free Throw 1 of 1 (27 PTS)

00:00 End Period

That ref is blind.

Yeah I thought Snakebites deserved to win too but sometimes it doesn't pan out

Thanks for voting so quick guys!

I honestly had no doubt Snake would win this series, Walton's problems were too much to overcome. Congrats Snake! I'll get you next time.

The real Finals was in round 1. I think I gave Snake the hardest time.

Miller4ever wrote:The real Finals was in round 1. I think I gave Snake the hardest time.

That's the key word.

I definitely gave him a harder time than you. You only got 1 vote.

lol, I was only joking, but to be fair, you only got one vote as well. . .out of seven.

It was so long ago...who can remember?

wow, voting ended quick

sorry I did not get to vote on time

Congrats Snake!