82-89 Keeper League Playoffs (START JUDGING pg. 6)

[TMACFORMVP]

MJallday59, SamBone, lukekarts
Snakebites, TMAC, Gremz

BlackIce, bryant08, Warspite
Miller4ever, CellarDoor, Keeslinator

[lukekarts]

Roster vs. SamBone

Derek Harper [34] / Byron Scott [14]
Rolando Blackman [24] / Byron Scott [24]
James Worthy [37] / Rolando Blackman [11]
Ralph Sampson [25] / Cliff Robinson [23]
Patrick Ewing [36] / Ralph Sampson [12]

If we go down to individual matchups, defensively, I'll be matching up position by position.

The first thing I must say is that I can't think of anyone more capable of matching up one on one with Moses than Ewing. Sadly, their peak's didn't overlap, but if they had done, I think it's fair to suggest Patrick woud've done a good job on him - he limited Hakeem to 20/11 (Hakeem limited Ewing to 18/10) over the course of his career; so it's not an exaggeration to say he'd have done the same to Moses. Patrick did twice lead in Defensive Rating, 3 times in Defensive Win Share and had 2nd and 3rd best defensive seasons by a Center, ever. This probably sums it up:

Ewing is a top 30 player. As far as ability and effectiveness hes right there with DRob and Hakeem. The differace for him is in accomplishments.

Karl Malone was an impressive player, but also a bit of a loser. I've always asked the question as to why, playing with a fellow Hall of Famer in Stockton, a multiple DPOY candidate in Eaton, and later a great shooter in Hornacek, he couldn't win a ring in his prime.. Well, quite simply, it's because he's a loser. People get wowed by the stats and longevity but looking back I can't see any difference between his situation in Utah and LeBron's situation in Miami right now. Only Malone played with a great player for years and years and years. Imagine if LeBron paired up with Wade for 10 years and all the hate he'd be getting for not winning a ring

If you take realgm's top 100 as pretty accurate (guys like TMAC, Penbeast etc. all contributed to a big project a while back and there's another one happening now), then Stockton/Malone are the least successful top 30 players to team up of all time. That's a pretty impressive feat. Suggests one was overrated, and I suggest that it's Malone. (Edit: SamBone got the year wrong so I've rewritten the next bit). It is worth pointing out that despite a good regular season record, when it counted, Malone's Jazz lost to the 7th seed Golden State Warriors. In 3 games. For what it's worth, Chirs Mullin totally dominate that series (and we move on to see how average he was later...). Karl Malone was guarded by Ron Higgins that series, who is known for his dominant 9 pts 3.6 rebound career average.

I look forward to SamBone's counter argument that Malone wasn't a loser in the post-season; as he went on to lose in the first round 6 more times, the second round 3 times, the WCF 3 times, and the Finals twice. He did meet Jordan twice of course, but the other dozen defeats were against other teams....

I think this may sum it up:

I think the problem is that those two always were bringin their A game. Night in and night out. They didn't really have another gear come playoff time.

Ralph Sampson's career was shortlived, but in his 3rd season and Hakeem's second, they made it to the Finals. Ralph Sampson wasn't quite the scorer Malone was, but he was as efficient, an equal rebounder and much better defender. At 7'4, Malone is going to have his work cut out scoring past Sampson and Ewing. Clearly, my front court is defensively superior.

At SF, SamBone sums up Worthy quite nicely:

Big Game James was one of the all-time great clutch performers. While his regular season numbers were never amazing, he reached a new level once he hit the postseason, averaging over 21 points per game for his career. Worthy was always able to hit the tough shots when needed.
A solid defender and a good shooter, Worthy was able to reach the hoop at will.

He was certainly able to step up his performances. It's worth pointing out, that in English's prime (age 30), Worthy's rookie season, in their first matchup, Worthy held English to 34.8% shooting. In their third game, Worthy dumped 37 points on 71% shooting on English. Alex was probably the Carmelo Anthony of his time, a very good offensive player but rarely capable - or demonstrated that he was capable - at the other end of the court. The 106+ paced Nuggets were an all out scoring team, and English was not renowned as a guy that had the extra level, that Worthy had.

I'll paraphrase Bill Simmons here - English was the type of player that scored 6-8 points per quarter and somehow ended up with 27 points and you weren't totally sure how because he never "took over the game."

Blackman vs. Mullin becomes interesting as both have similar numbers and played at the same time. It's worth pointing out that in the 5 matchups between Blackman and Mullin in Sambones selected 87-88 season, Blackman beat Mullin in 4 games, and limited him to 16.6 points and 3.2 assists - less than his season average. Blackman's 20.6 points was almost precisely his seaoson average.

Finally, Mo Cheeks vs,. Derek Harper. I love this matchup, as Mo Cheeks was Defensive 1st in 86 (selected year), yet when they faced:

Derek Harper: 15.5 points (82.3%!!!)
Mo Cheeks: 14.5 points (54%).

If you factor in their 14 career matchups, Cheeks was constantly limited by Harper's defence to an even greater extent than Harper was limited by Mo. More assists, greater efficiency, 8 more points is the advantage Harper holds over Mo. Both were of course good defensive players and their accolades support that, but the individual matchup has to go to Harper.

Rebounding

SamBone will probably throw in some sort of argument about rebounding, but let me just say this: Ewing played with Oakley and Sampson played with Hakeem, both well acknowledged as excellent rebounders, who hovered between 11-12 per game a the time. Comparatively, Phillies second rebounder in '83 was Erving with 6.8; and Sikma played with my very own Lonnie Shelton who averaged 6.3. I don't think TRB% has any weight in this comparison at all.

Defence

Defensively, I've already put forward the case that my front court should be better defensively. That's based on the following:

- Ewing is every bit Moses' equal in defensive stats, and with the simple eye test!
- Sampson was huge, and a great shot blocker (2.0 blocks per game) reached the finals with Hakeem and no backcourt; much more impactful help defender than Karl Malone.
- Worthy tried on defence. English didn't.
- Blackman and Harper were good defensive players, and as already highlighted in individual matchups, have the upper hand.
- On the bench, only Sikma really excels as a defender compared to my backups. Eaton was great no doubt, but there aren't enough minutes for him and his limited offense.

Summary

SamBone's team is very solid, and Moses will be a match for anyone. But this Moses can't part water, and when it comes to the final game, English fails to step up, Karl Malone chokes; and SamBone's backcourt still remains inferior, it will be Worthy who takes over.

[lukekarts]

I think MJ's lineup is:

PG: Price
SG: Ainge
SF: Schremf / R.Pierce
PF: Barkley / Oakley
C: Bol

But not entirely sure as he's posted nothing yet.

Lack of interior presence (Bol was a good blocker but only a bit-part player), I feel comfortable with having the advantage at every position except PF, and I don't think Barkley alone can make up the deficit.

I know it's a lacklustre writeup but I've no idea of mj's gameplan.

[BlackIce]

It's a pleasure to clash with Bryant once again. This time it is his team that is built for the future while mine is built to win now. Still I have to be careful against an opponent of his abilities.

vs bryant08

Rik Smits/Bob McAdoo
Horace Grant/Derrick McKey
Dan Majerle/Walter Davis
Reggie Miller/Walter Davis
John Stockton/Scott Skiles

We have the advantage at 4 of the 5 positions. Outside of of Grant, Skiles and maybe Stockton this is a weak defensive team that we are looking at. You need elite team defense to have a chance at slowing down my team. Miller isn't in his prime, in fact outside of Stockton no one on his team is.

Offense: Give the ball to my forwards, Bird in my chosen year put up 26/10/8 in the playoffs on 52%/41% with a Finals and Regular season MVP. Horace Grant isn't going to be able to handle him. We will have him run the pick and pop with Laimbeer to open up the paint for Erving to swoop in, with Richmond spacing the floor. DJ will get his points off open jumpers and broken plays. His powerful legs ("rocket launcher legs") will also allow him to take advantage of the open paint. Spacing is key in our offense.

Defense: Stockton is the key to Bryant's offense, so why not put one of the greatest defensive guards of all time on him. DJ at 6'4 will suffocate Stockton and disrupt his passing, thus disrupting their offense. Smits (12/6) wasn't a huge threat at this point in his career so we'll have Laimbeer playing a lot of help defense. Erving will make Majerles life difficult and Ritchmond (a strong defender) will check Miller. Bird will guard Grant, a job I think he can handle fairly easily.

Rebounding: We have the rebounding edge here, everyone of my starters is an elite rebounder for their position. Meanwhile bryant doesn't have a 10rpg guy in his starting 5.

In summary we simply have too much firepower for this young team.

[BlackIce]

Warspite is a very knowledgeable poster that I had the pleasure of conversing with a little bit this game. He has built a heck of a team, but we think we can take him.

vs. Warspite

Magic/MRR
Ellis/Birdsong
King/Lewis
Robinson/Chambers
Daugherty/Willis

The main flaw in War's team is DEFENSE! Magic is notoriously bad at it, Ellis is a weak defender as is King. Robinson and Daughtery are no defensive anchors. MMR is a good defender but other then that, I see War having the same problem that Bryant will have.

Offense: Let King and Erving battle it out, and I'd like to see Bird take advantage of his match-up once again. He should go ape sh*t in this series, War has no one to check him at all and Bird is at his apex. We will also have this version of DJ (a great all around scorer) attack Magic and make his life difficult. You look at War's team and 1-3 it is magnificent offensively, but 1-4 so is I. Ritchmond is one of the most underrated players of all time and is very comparable to Ellis.

Defense: Choose one defender in the history of the league that you want guarding Magic Johnson..thats right you'd probably choose Dennis Johnson.

Johnson took credit for playing smothering defense on Hall of Fame Lakers playmaker Magic Johnson, limiting him to a sub-average 17 points in the last four games,[5] and being at least partly responsible for several of the Laker point guard's game-deciding errors in Games 2, 4 and 7. As a result, Magic Johnson was taunted as "Tragic Johnson" whenever the Lakers and Celtics played against each other

Now we aren't going to stop Magic by any means, but with Laimbeer waiting in the paint and DJ checking Magic with Erving and Bird as help defense we think we can limit him. We want to take away his passing lanes and turn him into a scorer if we can. Ritchmond will check Ellis a strong scorer, both SG's play a similar game with Ellis being more of a pure shooter and Ritchmond having a better all around game and defense. Dr. J he was the better defender, better ball handler, and better finisher by far over King, he can limit King on this end of the floor. Bird will check Robinson, he has the size to do so. Finally Laimbeer will guard Daugherty. Daugherty was a well rounded offense player, you'll see Ruland play more minutes in this series then usual we they he matchs up well with Daugherty and Willis.

Passing. My starting 1-4 doesn't have a player that averages less then 4 assists with Bird at 7 and DJ at 5. We are an elite passing team with elite spacing. Ritchmond and Bird are good 3 point shooters and DJ and Erving are excellent mid-range shooters.

Rebounding: Laimbeer led the league in rebounding my selcted year at 13, and did so while playing a perimeter based styles of play on offense. He was at 13rpg. Bird rebounded better then most big man at 10rpg and this allows me to play him at PF. Erving was one of the best rebounding forwards in the league at 7. Ritchmond same story, 6 rebounds and DJ at 5. We have the advantage here.

To conclude we both have powerful offenses but I have a better defense. We can check Magic better then War can check Bird and that is ignoring what Erving will do. Great matchup and best of luck.

[CellarDoor]

Fighting Gremzes v. Miller4ever

Rosters:

McMillan-20-(89), Floyd-28-(87) (Smith(89))
Gervin-32-(82), Pressey-16-(86) (Smith)
Johnson-32-(82), Pressey-16- (Gervin)
Nance-28-(89), Lucas-20-(82)
Olajuwon-32-(89), Rollins-16-(83)

v.

Lever, Nixon
Jordan, Lever
McCray, Dantley (Banks)
Williams, Thorpe
Parish, Williams (Cartwright)

Defensive match-ups
Obviously Jordan is the alpha and omega of Miller's team. You don't stop him, you just make him work. To that end, we're going to not give him any rest on the perimeter with either McMillan or Pressey on him at all times. Both guys are very good on ball defenders, and both guys averaged over 2 steals a game. 88 Jordan wasn't the jumpshooter the early 90s Jordan was, and if he gets around his guys to the baskets he'll have Nance, Olajuwon and Rollins waiting on him. With the lack of shooting exemplified on Miller's team we'll have people as far off and as ready to help as possible. Gervin will be on lever or Nixon when Nate's on Mike, and he'll be on McCray when Pressey's got the assignment. Since neither big is a huge scoring threat and all my bigs are good defenders, Rollins and Olajuwon will always find themselves on the worst offensive player on the floor roaming free to protect the basket from Jordan and Dantley. I feel very comfortable with my team's ability to limit anything Miller's team tries to implement.

Offensive Scheme
Similar to the last era, Gervin will be leading the way offensively. He's in terrific form in 82 leading the league in scoring for the 4th time (highest output per 36 of his career). The most impressive thing though is that he managed to shoot 50% with a very underwhelming supporting cast and defenses keyed in on him. On this team, if defenses key in they can be made to pay. When Gervin doesn't have the ball in his hands we'll utilize one of two other options: McMillan/Pressey running a standard offense with people cutting and using off-ball screens and Hakeem posting up, Sleepy floyd using his devastating handles and penetration to score or set-up teammates. We also expect a large portion of our offense to come on the break. Our team has a lot of components that force a LOT of turnovers (Hakeem, McMillan, Pressey, Rollins, etc). When Sleepy's on the floor he'll be out there with the most disruptive defenders on purpose to let him get out int he open floor where, frankly, he can't be stopped.

Rebounding
First, I'd like to point out that I'm thankful my team pretty much all shoots over 50% from the field, so there won't be a lot of offensive glass to clean up.

Dream- 19.5 --- Williams 19.6
Lucas- 19.3 --- Parish 19.3
Rollins- 16.0 --- Thorpe 15.1
Johnson- 13.5 --- Lever 12.4
Nance- 13.0 --- McCray 10.1
McMillan- 9.3 --- Jordan 7.8
Pressey- 8.2 --- Dantley 6.7
Gervin- 7.5

So while Miller's comments about Lever and Nance's similar rebounding numbers are true, the numbers over the teams don't bear out. Jordan and Gervin are a wash in all their minutes. Dream, Williams, Lucas, and Parish basically match one another. Rollins and Thorpe, but that's mitigated by Nance's time on the floor, and Johnson and McMillan along with Pressey outdo Lever, Mccray and Dantley. Perhaps the most devastating results of this though is that when Lever is out there trying to get rebounds, anytime they DON'T get their offensive board, Sleepy's gone, and it's two points while Lever tries to find his way out of his own paint.

This is getting long, so the tl ; dr is that Jordan and Gervin won't be stopped. The difference for my team is that Hakeem outpaces everything else Miller has, and my team will generate a huge number of turnovers.

[CellarDoor]

McMillan (20) | Floyd (28)
Gervin (32) | Pressey (16)
Johnson (32) | Pressey (16)
Nance (28) | Lucas (20)
Olajuwon (40) | Rollins (8)

PG: Michael Adams (32) | Rod Strickland (16)
SG: Alvin Robertson (36) | Purvis Short (12)
SF: Scottie Pippen (28) | Purvis Short (20)
PF: Dennis Rodman (32) | Jeff Ruland (16)
Cc: Joe Barry Carroll (38)| Danny Manning (10)

I’d like to start by saying I’m in love with Klees’ team. Those of you who have faced me in the past know I’m a big fan of defense. Between Klees and Miller 3 of my four favorite forwards are on their teams (B Jones being the only piece missing, damn you Sam!) That being said, we feel confident in our match-up here specifically because while you want to stop your opponent, you want to score too.

Point Guards:

Sleepy and Adams, the two primary 1s, are pretty similar. Both scoring at similar rates and accumulating assists in similar fashions (drive and dish). The biggest difference in them is volume 3pt shooting. Both shot in the 30s, but Adams had a much more liberal shot selection. This bears out in their shooting percentages (.433 to .488) and their true shooting numbers (.567 to .608). We believe Sleepy will be the better best man here. Also, these two won’t be facing each other all that much as we have McMillan in the game to start the halves and play with Gervin/Johnson. We feel like the gap widens her as second year Strickland should have little success facing Floyd and hoping to stop him. Adv Gremzes.

Shooting Guards:
I love Robertson. I feel he’s slightly overrated by his DPOY, but he’s an incredibly gifted defender and one of the best three or four at his position in this era. Gervin himself said Robertson was the toughest defender he faced. (Gervin’s quote noted that he scored 30 still. It was just a tough 30). That said, I don’t see this match-up as close. I don’t often link these pages, but look at my guys v. his in their selected seasons—especially the advanced stats: Comparison. Looking at the four players in any category you come away with the feeling that Klees will get destroyed. Purvis isn’t going to be able to do much of anything against Pressey, who will be able to do, well, anything on Purvis. Meanwhile Gervin will get his even with the extra work, and Robertson, while a good scorer, has to contend with my bigs when he gets to the basket.

Small Forwards:
Another player I love, especially as a Bulls fan. Unfortunately there’s a similar dominance at this level. Pippen isn’t as seasoned as he would become, and Purvis again is doing more harm than good, especially if he’s coming in against Pressey again. This version of Pippen is actually similar to Pressey with the exception of the fact that he’s still a poor shooter and hasn’t become the distributor he later would yet. Pippen’s length advantage is non-existent on Marques who, like Gervin, will be made to work, but he’ll get some of his still and likely get the better of this Pippen.

Power Forwards:
Another case of my opponent ramping up a players minutes by a large number: Rodman’s playing 32 here compared to 27 w. Detroit. What’s more, in the playoffs Detroit ramped him down further to 24 minutes a game. I’m not going to bother harping on Rodman’s per going down in the POs as per simply isn’t a good way to measure a player like him. The only thing that changed for the worse in the POs for him was his scoring got less efficient. I’m assuming he’s the 7th or so option in this team though, so that’s inconsequential. What is consequential is that Rodman will allow Nance to play a lot of help defense protecting the paint while Hakeem forces turnovers around the elbow while covering Carroll. As far as Williams goes…he scored a lot inefficiently on an atrocious team. He and his 97 ORTG can go at it all day with Lucas. We’re winning that battle.

Centers: Um..yeah. Carroll’s solid, but not talented. Sort of a better scoring Mark Blount. Nance will be covering him mostly. Rookie Manning was inefficient, a bad rebounder, and turnover prone. Putting him in will be doing me a favor frankly.

What it comes down to is that while a strong defensive team, there’s not enough ways for Klees’ team to get the ball in the basket enough to outpace my team, and his biggest offensive hole is my second biggest offensive threat.

[Snakebites]

Coming soon!

[Miller4ever]

Lineup against Cellar:

PG: Fat Lever '89 (36)/Norm Nixon '82 (12)
SG: Michael Jordan '88 (40)/Adrian Dantley '87 (8)
SF: Rodney McCray '87 (36)/Gene Banks '84 (12)
PF: Buck Williams '83 (18)/Otis Thorpe '87 (30)
C: Robert Parish '81 (36)/Buck Williams '83 (12)

The Formula:

BETTER DEFENSE + BETTER REBOUNDING = MORE POSSESSIONS
BETTER PLAYMAKING + BETTER SHOOTING = MORE EFFICIENCY
MORE POSSESSIONS + MORE EFFICIENCY = WINNING

BETTER DEFENSE

My team has the better defense in this matchup. Fat Lever was a great defender who was overshadowed by being on an offensively-minded team. He had a 2nd-team selection, which is a difficult achievement when Mo Cheeks, Sidney Moncrief, and Dennis Johnson are always occupying the other spots. He posted 2.7 steals per game and really put the pressure on opposing point guards. He's actually faster than butterfingers Floyd (3.3 TO's per 36 minutes) and butterfingers McMillan (3.1 TO's per 36 minutes with little scoring) is going to have a tough time at point. Norm Nixon also has the ability to play the passing lanes and pester Floyd enough to continue the pressure Lever places on the point. Nate McMillan and Floyd are both going to have tough times catching up to Lever and if you added their defensive win shares together, it wouldn't match up to Lever's.

Then there's the biggest name on the defense. Michael Jordan is the defensive player of the year and the MVP of the league. His ability to be everywhere on the court and stick to the toughest assignments makes him the best man to take on an aging George Gervin, while Gervin, who never had good defense to begin with. Pressey, meanwhile, seemed like a better defender with Moncrief on the wing and Sikma in the middle. Against the full force of Michael Jordan, he can't make a dent where Moncrief and Cooper could barely slow him down.

Rodney McCray is an extremely underrated defender. Although he was selected to the 1st and 2nd team, his name isn't well known. He was the quiet anchor of the Rockets' perimeter defense. In fact, in head-to-head matchups against a comparable Marques Johnson in '86 (who averaged 20 points on 51% shooting) he held Johnson to 36.4% shooting while posting 65.8% himself. There is not enough information between him and Pressey, but it's safe to say McCray's defense will be best utilized against Marques Johnson. Gene Banks is also a solid defender who is unheard of. He played alongside Gervin and Mitchell in San Antonio, providing basically all of the wing defense.

Then there's Buck Williams. He dominated defensive metrics like defensive rating and defensive win shares, and his play was equal. He was a great defender, although he didn't get recognition for it playing on fast-paced Nets teams. He had the best +/- on the Nets team, leading in offensive rating and was second on the team in defensive rating. Otis Thorpe backs it up with his solid defense, something he didn't receive hardware for, but he kept Hakeem out of foul trouble as a teammate taking on guys like Barkley, Kemp, and Malone. He's the enforcer big man that will power out Nance and clamp down on Lucas.

Finally, up top, is the 7'0" Robert Parish, who is yet another underrated defender. Since Hakeem has been in the league, he has played 15 regular season games against Parish in a Celtics jersey. Parish, aged 32-40, posted 55.5% shooting. Hakeem, aged 23-31, posted only .465 against Parish's defense. Parish averaged over 30 minutes a game throughout these matchups. In case you're wondering, in watching the videos it looks like McHale guards Sampson and Thorpe while Parish and his big body check Hakeem.

So, in a nutshell, not only is my team equipped for defense, it it surprisingly effective, which has been the MO of anyone on the team not named Michael Jordan.

BETTER REBOUNDING

What you want out of a team rebounding effort is balance. You want a balanced effort coming from the guys who play the most minutes. So here's what Cellar had to say, and he found some of my team's rebounding numbers for me, so I appreciate that legwork.

First, I'd like to point out that I'm thankful my team pretty much all shoots over 50% from the field, so there won't be a lot of offensive glass to clean up.

I'll get to this under the "better shooting" section of the writeup, but just know that my team is even better in this regard.

Dream- 19.5 --- Williams 19.6
Lucas- 19.3 --- Parish 19.3
Rollins- 16.0 --- Thorpe 15.1
Johnson- 13.5 --- Lever 12.4
Nance- 13.0 --- Banks 11.9
McMillan- 9.3 --- McCray 10.1
Pressey- 8.2 --- Jordan 7.8
Gervin- 7.5 --- Dantley 6.7
Floyd- 4.8 --- Nixon 3.2

So just going down the list it seems like Cellar has the advantage. That's an erroneous analysis of the statistics, because the best rebounders aren't on the floor in equal amounts. Let's add minutes played.

Dream- 19.5 (32) --- Williams 19.6 (30)
Lucas- 19.3 (20) --- Parish 19.3 (36)
Rollins- 16.0 (16)--- Thorpe 15.1 (30)
Johnson- 13.5 (32)--- Lever 12.4 (36)
Nance- 13.0 (28)--- Banks 11.9 (18)
McMillan- 9.3 (20)--- McCray 10.1 (30)
Pressey- 8.2 (32)--- Jordan 7.8 (40)
Gervin- 7.5 (32)--- Dantley 6.7 (8)
Floyd- 4.8 (28)--- Nixon 3.2 (12)

Since rebound rate is percentage of available rebounds grabbed while on the floor, we can just multiply that by minutes to get a number that adjusts for minutes played and shows the actual rebounding power of both teams.

So these numbers are kind of weird, but the total rebounding output of Cellar's team is 2884.8 and mine is 3103.4, which means I get 64.65 rebounds per 100 possessions and Cellar gets 60.1. All that means is that although Cellar boasts better rebounding matched head-to-head, he hasn't given his best player starters minutes. Rollins can out-rebound Thorpe, but Thorpe is playing more minutes so he's grab more rebounds. Same goes for Johnson and Lever, McCray and McMillan, Jordan and Pressey. And the biggest difference was Lucas playing 20 minutes while Parish plays 36 at equal rebounding. In my system, I have more able rebounders out at a time than Cellar.

Cellar's best rebounders can't board if they're sitting on the bench for more than half the game.

BETTER PLAYMAKING

Using the same principle as above (without showing you all the boring math unless someone requests it) which adjusts for pace and minutes played, my team turns it over 13.9 times per 100 possessions and Cellar's turns it over 14.6 times per 100 possessions. A negligible difference to some, but when you're talking about two squads with fastbreak capabilities, turnovers are magnified.

Now would also be a good time to compare systems. Paul Pressey is the main initiator of Cellar's offense, doing it against the defense of Michael Jordan and Rodney McCray. Michael Jordan is my main initiator going up against the defense of George Gervin and Paul Pressey. In my starting lineup I have three distributors. Lever, Jordan, and McCray have all earned their share of triple-doubles. Lever is #6 all-time. Jordan is #10 all-time, and McCray amassed 5 over his short career. With Jordan being the only ball-dominant one out of the bunch, I truly have a well-oiled machine when it comes to passing. Parish plays the high post where he is most effective and an excellent compliment to the driving Michael Jordan. Buck Williams plays that enforcer PF role similar to Horace Grant and, in a different way, Rodman.

Jordan, Nixon, McCray and Lever boast turnover rates of 9.6, 17.9 and 10.3 respectively. Fellow initiators McMillan, Sleepy, Gervin and Pressey roll with 27.1, 18.1, 8.5 and 19.1 respectively. So although the earlier turnover numbers suggest a close turnover contest, Cellar has placed the ball in the hands of the most turnover-prone ballhandlers (with the exception of Gervin) on the floor.

BETTER SHOOTING

As nice as the other advantages are, you still need to score the ball, and here's where the floodgates open. Cellar has tried to downplay the viability of all my players whose names are not "Jordan". This is a mistake and all I need are the per-36 minutes numbers:

Fat Lever: 18.5 pp36
Rodney McCray: 13.4 pp36
Buck Williams: 17 pp36
Robert Parish: 24.3 pp36

I was very interested in Parish's per-36 minute output. I compared it side-by-side with Hakeem's:

RP: 24.3p 12.2r 2.3a 1.3s 3.4b
HO: 24.2p 13.2r 1.8a 2.5s 3.4b

This matchup is getting closer all the time. I'm not saying Parish is an equal center to Hakeem. I'm just saying that Parish has been underrated across his career in being the ultimate team player.

So you can see my team has the volume to back up the efficiency. The league average of field goal attempts per game in 1981 was around 89 and in 1988 it was around 88. So let's just say that there are 90 shots a game to go around. Here's how my team breaks down.

Fat Lever: 10 attempts at .513 TS%
Norm Nixon: 3 attempts at .525 TS%
Michael Jordan: 25 attempts at .603 TS%
Adrian Dantley: 3 attempts at .614 TS%
Rodney McCray: 9 attempts at .612 TS%
Gene Banks: 5 attempts at .606 TS%
Buck Williams: 9 attempts at .611 TS%
Otis Thorpe: 8 attempts at .617 TS%
Robert Parish: 18 attempts at .579 TS%

That actually worked out to exactly 90 when I was winging it. That's attempts generally adjusted for minutes and while I would be able to exhibit some control over shots taken as a coach, this is how it would naturally occur in the minutes played. With all but three players at over 60% true shooting, this is a balanced attack. Better yet, Cellar only has one player over 60% TS and that's Sleepy Floyd, who is only playing 28 minutes in this matchup, and Nate McMillan's abysmal 46% TS for 20 minutes somewhat mitigates Floyd's offensive output. His point guard rotation is still more efficient than mine, but up and down, I have the better-equipped team.

And in case you didn't know:

McCray was the second-best player for the Rockets in '86 after Hakeem. In the Finals against the Celtics he scored at a 58% clip, good for 15 points a game against the defense of Larry Bird. His career would have turned out differently had his daughter not fallen ill and had he himself not succumbed to a blood disorder. His super-consistent jumper cannot be factored out at any point.

Parish was called by Bill Walton the "greatest shooting big man" of all time. If Cellar is going to treat him like a 4th-option, he'll start dropping 1st-option numbers from the high post. He and McHale actually share the same career-high.

CLOSING NOTES

As a team, I have fewer holes than Cellar's. There's no offensive liability like Nate McMillan or defensive liability like Gervin and Sleepy. I also have the greatest player to ever play the game, Michael Jordan. In this season he is a one-man fastbreak and a one-man fastbreak stopper. The team around him has the speed to keep up and the hard-nosed, unselfish style to compliment Jordan perfectly. the only slightly potential problem, Dantley, only spells Michael Jordan. If you look up my players, you won't find a lot, but what you will see is that they are consummate team players and the type of championship material that GM's dream about. There are no specialists. Everyone can contribute in all three phases of the game: offense, defense, and rebounding. There is no gameplan that can consistently penetrate any part of this airtight defense. This is the most balanced team I've ever put together and I have sacrificed no talent.

[Miller4ever]

Lineup against Kees:

PG: Fat Lever '89 (36)/Norm Nixon '82 (12)
SG: Michael Jordan '88 (40)/Adrian Dantley '87 (8)
SF: Rodney McCray '87 (36)/Adrian Dantley '87 (12)
PF: Buck Williams '83 (18)/Otis Thorpe '87 (30)
C: Robert Parish '81 (36)/Buck Williams '83 (12)

I'm just going to go down the roster list because I feel I've elaborated enough about how my team works in the above writeup and the individual advantages in this matchup are more obvious.

Fat Lever vs. Michael Adams

Fat Lever was the better player on the Denver Nuggets team Adams was on. In addition to being way less efficient, a worse defender, shorter, and not faster than Lever (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgDPFlbd3no) he had a weird release that was easily blocked. In every facet of the game Lever was a superior player.

Norm Nixon vs. Rod Strickland

Strickland is a rookie here averaging 9 and 4 while Nixon is an integral part of winning Lakers teams. Not much of a contest.

Michael Jordan vs. Alvin Robertson

Alvin Robertson is a DPOY, but so in Jordan. Additionally, Jordan is the outright MVP. While he doesn't have a quadruple-double to his name, Jordan should take this one pretty easily.

Rodney McCray vs. Scottie Pippen

Pippen didn't really blossom until his third and fourth years. This particular iteration is about equal to McCray except at less efficiency and experience.

Adrian Dantley vs. Purvis Short

Purvis Short is a scoring wing. Dantley is a scoring wing. Dantley is a much better scoring wing, with better efficiency and more output.

Buck Williams vs. Dennis Rodman

Both are young, rebounding heavy players. Buck is a little more complete and as a viable offensive option, he takes it against a young Rodman.

Otis Thorpe vs. Jeff Ruland

Ruland has an impressive 20-10 season, but it's also a 4.6 TO per game season. He's got muscle but so does Thorpe. Thorpe also has a defensive game to his name and doesn't turn the ball over.

Robert Parish vs Joe Barry Carroll

Carroll is another turnover-prone big man for Kees, and with a weak rebounding game a lack of efficiency, Parish's championship and invincible jump shot should take this matchup handily.

There are more facets to this, but I'll wait for rebuttals, given the long-winded nature of my other matchup.

[SamBone]

THE BONED SAMUELS
(80’s edition)

DEFENSE

Moses Malone: All Defensive (1st team) ranked 2nd in Def win shares and
4th in Defensive rating
Bobby Jones: All Defensive (1st team)
Mo Cheeks: All Defensive (1st team)
Jack Sikma: All Defensive (2nd team) ranked 1st in Def win shares and
1st in Defensive rating (would have been DPOY if they had it then)
Mark Eaton: DPOY and All Defenive (1st team)
Quinn Buckner: All Defensive (2nd team)
Karl Malone: ranked 3rd in DEF rating and 2nd in DEF win shares


- REBOUNDING

When Riley was coach of the LA Lakers, he used to tell his players in the postseason, "No rebounds, no rings. His philosophy was simple: If you don't crash the boards and the opponent outrebounds you, you are not likely to go anywhere except home for an early vacation.

I could not agree with that more, and that is how this team is built! The center piece of my team is Moses Malone, who in his selected season, is the NBA Rebounding King (3rd straight season and 4th in 5 year span). Moses was a beast on the glass (15.3 per) and led the league in both offensive and defensive boards.

He is paired with another great rebounder in Karl Malone (10.7 per in selected season ranked 5th in NBA). Backing up both those guys will be Jack Sikma (12.7 per in selected season) who ranked 2nd in NBA in rebounds (behind only Moses) and 1st in defensive rebounds in his selected season.

Both of my SF’s, Bobby Jones (5.2 per) and Alex English (7.3 per) were great rebounders for their positions, as was Quinn Buckner (4.2)

Plus I have BIG Mark Eaton (11.3 per in selected season who also led league in defensive rebounds) that can be called on if needed.

This group may be the best rebounding team in the game, and we all know that teams that out rebound their opponent usually beat their opponent!

- SHOT BLOCKING
Another aspect of my defense is shot blocking. The great shot blocking that my team offers will really create problems for my opponents. Moses (2 per), Sikma (1.3), Eaton(5.6), Bobby Jones (1.5), English (1.5), and Karl Malone (.9) all will create problems for the person they are guarding and anyone that attempts to take the ball inside.

- STEALS
Playing the passing lanes is also something that is needed to be a good defensive team. My back court is led Mo Cheeks (2.5 per and was 2nd in the NBA) , Gus Williams (2.2 per and ranked 7th in league), and Quinn Buckner (2.9 per was 4th). Playing next to them will be Chris Mullins, who may not of been the best man defender, but he had some of the quickest hands in the game and always was good at getting steals (1.9), Bobby Jones (1.3), English (1.4), plus my BIGS like Karl Malone (1.8 ), Moses Malone (1.1), and Sikma (1.2).

OFFENSE

Just like my Defense, my team is also led by Moses Malone (24.5 ppg, .501 FG%) on offense. My offense is build around two great post players in the Malone’s (Moses and Karl). Moses is simply a beast who looked like a man playing against boys in his prime. Moses was so unstoppable that people would often say he missed shots on purpose (.501 FG% in elected season) just to pad his offensive rebounding stats (led the league in selected season). That just shows how dominating the man was. Add to that that in his selected season he was 1st in EFF rating

His offensive side kick is his brother from a different mother, Karl Malone (29.1 ppg, .519 FG%). “The Mailman” may be the best power forward to ever play in the NBA. The man was simply a beast. His deadly mid range jumper, paired next to Moses’ post game make this pair deadly. Karl was ranked 5th in EFF rating.

Our other offensive weapon in our starting lineup is Chris Mullin (20.2 ppg, .508 FG%, .351 3pt%,) who’s range will offer spacing for our BIGS to work, and if he is left open, Mullin will kill you. Mullin was also a great passer (4.8 assts) so rotating the ball for reposts will really help keeping our offense running smooth.

Our floor general is Mo Cheeks (15.4 ppg, 9.2 asst, .537 FG%). Besides being a stud defensively, Mo was always able to keep “star player” happy by distributing the ball. Besides finishing 4th in the league in assists in his selected season, Mo, who was not known for his offense, had the 10th best offensive rating and was ranked 8th in Offensive Win shares.

Filling out our starting unit, is Bobby Jones (14.4 ppg, .564 FG%,). Bobby will not see many touches, but when he does touch the ball, he is almost automatic (Ranked 8th in FG%, 6th in TS%)

We have the “NBA Scoring King” as our 6th man in Alex English (28.4 ppg, .516 FG%). He will be used as our instant offense who besides being very efficient (2nd in EFF) he also was a solid passer (4.8 assts)

He is joined by a great scoring PG in Gus Williams (23.4 ppg) and a low post stud with range in Jack Sikma (19.6 ppg)

-FREE THROWS
Another strength that my team has, is that all my guys get to the line at a very high rate. Getting my opposition in foul trouble and getting free shots will be another added bonus

Moses: 1st in foul shots made (.761 FT%)
Mailman: 1st in foul shots made (.766 FT%)
English: 8th in foul shots made (.829 FT%)
Sikma: 8th in foul shots made (.855 FT%)
Mullin: (.885 FT%)
Bobby Jones: (.790 FT%)
Mo: (.842 FT%)

-OFFENSIVE REBOUNDS
As much as I stressed the importance of rebounding on defense, Offensive rebounds kill teams and make offense’s that much better. My team is filled with great offensive rebounders. These 2nd chance points will lead to many many easy buckets.

Moses: 1st in Offensive rebounds
English: 8th in offensive rebounds
Mailman: 13th in Offensive rebounds:
Sikma: 16th in Offensive rebounds



Matchup

Boned Samuels
PG: Mo Cheeks '86 (28) / Gus Williams '82 (20)
SG: Chris Mullin '88 (28) / Quinn Buckner '82 (15) / Gus Williams (5)
SF: Bobby Jones '82 (24) / Alex English '83 (24)
PF: Karl Malone '89 (35) / Jack Sikma '82 (13)
C: Moses Malone '83 (36) / Jack Sikma '82 (12) / Mark Eaton '85

vs lukekarts

PG: Derek Harper ’87 [34] / Byron Scott ‘88 [14]
SG: Rolando Blackman ’86 [24] / Byron Scott ’88 [24]
SF: James Worthy ‘88 [37] / Rolando Blackman ‘86 [11]
PF: Ralph Sampson ’85 [25] / Cliff Robinson ‘83 [23]
C : Patrick Ewing ‘89 [36] / Ralph Sampson ’85 [12]

This is going to be fun. My opponent was the first to post a writeup, so it is hard to write something up that is not a pure rebuttal, but I will try my best.

Before I even start, I think it is hilarious that the person who has Patrick Ewing on his team, has the balls to call Karl Malone a “loser”, really dude? Do you realize that Karl Malone is one of the few players to play in the playoffs every season of his career?

Karl and Pat entered the league the same year, Karl went to 3 Finals compared to 1 from Pat, Karl played in 193 playoff games (24.7 ppg and 10.7 reb) Pat played in 139 (20.2ppg, 10.3 reb). Yes in my selected season the Jazz were swept by GS but I really don’t think Karl’s 30.7 ppg (on 50% shooting) and 16.3 reb was him being a “loser” and coming up small. (sub note, one of the defenders that unsuccessfully guarded Karl was your boy Ralph Samson, and Rod Higgins was not starting at all for that team)

The first thing I must say is that I can't think of anyone more capable of matching up one on one with Moses than Ewing. Sadly, their peak's didn't overlap, but if they had done, I think it's fair to suggest Patrick woud've done a good job on him - he limited Hakeem to 20/11 (Hakeem limited Ewing to 18/10) over the course of his career; so it's not an exaggeration to say he'd have done the same to Moses. Patrick did twice lead in Defensive Rating, 3 times in Defensive Win Share

Moses was as unstoppable player as there ever was in the NBA. No body in 1983 could control this beast, who just won his 3rd MVP award, and his 1st Finals MVP award. Pat was a good defensive center, but there is no way that a young Ewing can stop ’83 Moses. And my opponent seems to try to list Ewing’s entire resume and sell that as ’89 Ewing, Moses accomplished more awards in his selected season, then Ewing did his entire career

Also since luke wants to boast about the 3 seasons later in Pat’s career that he had a good defensive rating, he forgets to point out that 1989 Ewing had a Defensive Rating of 103 (15th in NBA) (that means his opponent would score 103 points in 100 possessions against him). For the record Moses’ Defensive rating was 96.6

And I don’t even have to mention what he did vs the GOAT, KAJ in the 83 Finals

Comparing a powerful BEAST like Moses to a finesse C like Hakeem is really irrelevant, if you want to know how Pat would do against Moses, look up his stats against SHAQ who had a career (28.7 ppg, 12 reb, 3.1 blk, .542 FG% against Ewing)

If you take realgm's top 100 as pretty accurate (guys like TMAC, Penbeast etc. all contributed to a big project a while back and there's another one happening now), then Stockton/Malone are the least successful top 30 players to team up of all time. That's a pretty impressive feat. Suggests one was overrated, and I suggest that it's Malone

Well since you have pointed out this list, why didn’t you note that these great basketball minds voted the “loser” Karl Malone as the 12th best player to ever play the game, which I think is damn impressive considering that he does not have any rings. Also note that Moses was ranked 16th and Ewing has yet to make the list!

Ralph Sampson wasn't quite the scorer Malone was, but he was as efficient, an equal rebounder and much better defender.

Ralph ‘85: 22.1 ppg, 10.4 reb, .533 TS%, 104 defensive rating
Karl ‘89: 29.1 ppg, 10.7 reb, .592 TS%, 99 defensive rating

So you are batting .500,
- Correct that Ralph isn’t the scorere and is equal rebounder
- Incorrect on efficency and defense

Worthy being guarded by the great Bobby Jones will not be much of an issue. Bobby is one of the best defensive forwards to ever play the game. I highly doubt James will be much of a factor in this series at all.

Chris Mullin vs Rolando Blackman is another matchup I am really not concerned with,
But I do need to point out this statement from Luke’s writeup whe talking about the 1989 playoffs

Chirs Mullin totally dominate that series (and we move on to see how average he was later...).

really? a guy that was an NBA Hall of Famer and one of the best shooters to ever play the game became an “average “ player? If that is the case, what was Ralondo Blackman considered? or Byron Scott?


Gus Williams (All NBA 1st team) will have no issues against B.Scott
Big Jack Sikma has no issues at all against Cliff Robinson

Finally, Mo Cheeks vs,. Derek Harper. I love this matchup, as Mo Cheeks was Defensive 1st in 86 (selected year), yet when they faced:

Derek Harper: 15.5 points (82.3%!!!)
Mo Cheeks: 14.5 points (54%).

If you factor in their 14 career matchups, Cheeks was constantly limited by Harper's defence to an even greater extent than Harper was limited by Mo. More assists, greater efficiency, 8 more points is the advantage Harper holds over Mo. Both were of course good defensive players and their accolades support that, but the individual matchup has to go to Harper.

So in those 2 games
Harper had 15.5 ppg ( 82.3 FG%), 9 assts, 3 steals, 0 reb, 7 to’s
Mo had 14.5ppg (.542 FG%), 23 assts, 4 steals, 3 reb, 2 to’s

I have no problem with those stats happening in this matchup. Mo is one of the greatest leaders and floor generals to ever play the game. Mo’s role is to feed the big guys, and I am pretty sure that as the real life matchup shows, he will continue to do that in this series.
---------
Boned Samuels
PG: Mo Cheeks '86 (28) / Gus Williams '82 (20)
SG: Chris Mullin '88 (28) / Quinn Buckner '82 (15) / Gus Williams (5)
SF: Bobby Jones '82 (24) / Alex English '83 (24)
PF: Karl Malone '89 (35) / Jack Sikma '82 (13)
C: Moses Malone '83 (36) / Jack Sikma '82 (12) / Mark Eaton '85

vs MJ

PG: Price
SG: Ainge
SF: Schremf / R.Pierce
PF: Barkley
C: Bol

Well I am unsure of MJ's actual team or who his keepers were from the previous era. While drafting some solid players, I am not sure this team can compete with the guys I have in the current. Moses will have a field day against Bol. As will Mullin and English against the defenders they will be facing. I see nothing here that will prevent my offense from doing basically whatever they wish. Chuck vs Mailman should be fun matchup, but not sure the pieces are surrounding Chuck to help him out.

I will add more once a lineup is posted

[Warspite]

Bone crushers

On offense the Bonecrushers are essentialy useing the Lakers offense of 80s with a slight differance in useing King (Worthy) more and Daughtery (KAJ) less. That and we have maybe the greatest pure shooter of this era in his carreer yr. This team is built to run with mobile bigmen and great finishers and it has the best half court player in this league as its #1 option.

On Defense the Bone Crushers rely on there length and size and control the boards with great rebounders. Magic in his selected yr had 2spg and was just removed from leading the league in steals. MRR avgs 3spg and is the shut down guard of this series.

Matchup Black Ice

Backcourt: DJ might be able to guard Magic but the fact that hes limited on offense to 15ft and slow footed means that theres realy no worry about Magic on defense. DJ is the 5th option and not a scoring threat. RIchmond is a 22yr old rookie still making rookie mistakes and still learning the NBA game. He has nice stats but its Nellies Warriors so take them with a grain of salt. You also know he hasnt been coached to play a lick of defense. Still hes a spot up shooter in there offense playing the Danny Ainge roll. At my opponets best and my players worst Magic/Ellis still smoke DJ/Richmond

SF: Its not often that DRJ still in his prime steps on the court and has no chance. This is one of those series. DrJ is not going to able to leave King and thus will provide no help defense. What that means is that BlackIce has no shotblocking on his team and relies on positional def and blocking out. Its a very unathletic frontcourt that cant recover or double team.


C/PF Daugherty, Willis, Robinson are the athletic group that can take adv of the slow footed Bird/Laimbeer. We also have Chambers who has the ability to come off the bench and score at will on BlackIces frontcourt.

Im looking Blackices team and notice something. No low post offense and a ton of midrange jump shooters. DrJ wants the ball on the wing, Bird wants the ball coming off screen or curl, Laimbeer is a pick and pop 20ft shooter, DJ is a elbow jump shooter. The teams best low post player is there rookie SG. How do you run an offense none of your players in the paint? The spacing is realy bad and I feel that many of these players will be playing outside there comfort zone and this will lead to a lower FG%.

In Closing: The Bonecrushers run a very Eff offense with awsome FG% and superior spacing. Very good passing and great finishers. I believe we can up the tempo and blow them off the court when at home and will be forced to win on the road in a half court set in which we will be relying on Bernard King who had this playoff stat line of 34.8ppg on 58% shooting.

Bryant

The bonecrushers are now the team with the experience who have been together and are ready to play the rebuilding Bryants. the Bryants are going to put up a scrappy game plan and will cause some issues but we will use our talent adv and try to speed up the game and cause Bryants young players into TOs.

[lukekarts]

vs. SamBone - Rebuttal

Before I even start, I think it is hilarious that the person who has Patrick Ewing on his team, has the balls to call Karl Malone a “loser”, really dude? Do you realize that Karl Malone is one of the few players to play in the playoffs every season of his career?

Yeah. Ewing's best team-mate was who, John Starks? Not John Stockton... When it mattered, Malone was a loser. Ewing really didn't have any help.

(sub note, one of the defenders that unsuccessfully guarded Karl was your boy Ralph Samson, and Rod Higgins was not starting at all for that team)

Sampson was a shadow of his former self a that time, everyone acknowledges that.

he forgets to point out that 1989 Ewing had a Defensive Rating of 103

And yet still Defensive 2nd team...Sometimes these advanced stats don't truly reflect what we see on the court.

Well since you have pointed out this list, why didn’t you note that these great basketball minds voted the “loser” Karl Malone as the 12th best player to ever play the game, which I think is damn impressive considering that he does not have any rings. Also note that Moses was ranked 16th and Ewing has yet to make the list!

So like I said, horribly overrated. He's the second biggest playoff failure on the list so far (behind Barkley). No way he was better than Moses who like I acknowledged, actually won stuff when he had a good team-mate. The key to winning in the playoffs was being able to elevate the game beyond that of your peers. Everyone looks at Michael Jordan as a great finals performer and for good reason, in the playoffs he was even better than the lofty expectations he set for himself in the regular season. Malone showed none of that, ever.

Worthy being guarded by the great Bobby Jones will not be much of an issue. Bobby is one of the best defensive forwards to ever play the game. I highly doubt James will be much of a factor in this series at all.

They only faced once, at the end of Jones' career, so I'll spare the direct comparison. What I can say, is that arguably the greatest defender of the era - Scottie, matched up with Worthy on a number of occasions later in his career, and 'held' him to 20.7 points on 48.5% shooting over 13 games. James Worthy will be a far bigger factor in this series than you give him credit for; I should probably steer you in the direction of your previous quote in my OP Need I mention some examples of Worthy stepping up? 36 points 16 rebounds 10 assists in game 7. The Pistons, for what it's worth, only had Dennis Rodman, Joe Dumars and Rick Mahorn (Defensive 2nd) guarding the perimeter.

really? a guy that was an NBA Hall of Famer and one of the best shooters to ever play the game became an “average “ player? If that is the case, what was Ralondo Blackman considered? or Byron Scott?

Blackman was better than Mullin in individual matchups. Scott too if you want to look it up. Sure Mullin has the accolades but he's not playing everyone else, he's playing these guys.

Gus Williams (All NBA 1st team) will have no issues against B.Scott

Again, we can't really directly compare. But Scott had no issues against Dumars - multiple All Defensive 1sts - during his selected season and career, shooting 49.3% from the field against him. He's not the kind of player who gets limited easily.

There is of course a lot of Philly bias in your post, which is not surprising. Basically you've taken the 83 76ers, swapped Forward scoring options and added depth. I like a lot of the team, with the exception of Malone and English.

As I've already demonstrated, my backcourt was superior in head to head matchups, that you cannot detract from; and that Worthy should easily outplay Bobby Jones; and my front court should have a fighting chance against yours. You also acknowledged Moses offensive rebounding stat was padded by all his 'deliberate' tip ins; I also pointed out his rebounding advantage was clouded somewhat by the fact that he didn't play with any truly great rebounders like my bigs did. In any case, I'm sure it will be a closer series than you give credit for.

No hard feelings :p

[bryant08]

vs. BlackIce

Horace Grant (20) - Rik Smits (28)
Derrick McKey (25) - Horace Grant (13) - Bob McAdoo (10)
Dan Majerle (30) - Walter Davis (18)
Reggie Miller (36) - Walter Davis (12)
John Stockton (38) - Scott Skiles (10)

PG: Dennis Johnson/Mark Jackson
SG Mitch Ritchmond/World B. Free
SF: Julius Erving/Mark Aguirre
PF: Larry Bird/Caldwell Jones
Cc: Bill Laimbeer/Jeff Ruland

Want to start by saying BlackIce has likely the most dynamic duo in this era in Dr. J and Bird. He'll be a tough team to beat but I definitely see holes in his gameplan.

Defensively
With a team like BI's, adjustments need to be made even to my starting lineup for me to have a chance at taking him down.

Outside of of Grant, Skiles and maybe Stockton this is a weak defensive team that we are looking

Had to rip on this because it's just plain wrong. Derrick McKey (two time All Defensive 2nd team) and Dan Majerle (2 time All Defensive 2nd team) were regarded as exceptional defenders and for me, those two with Grant/Stockton provide me with very solid defense.

I decided to go small in this lineup because I'm not overly worried about Bill Laimbeer dominating on the offensive end. He had some nice range on his jumper and could clean up the scraps down low, but he's certainly not going to be getting a lot of touches offensively. I decided to go with Derrick McKey on Bird because he's one of the few guys that has the size and the quickness to defend Bird. It's obviously not possible to stop Bird, but I think McKey is my best bet at limiting him. With Majerle on Erving as well, I hope to achieve a similar result. Rik Smits/McAdoo provide some excellent size off the bench and will be used for matchup purposes.

Offensively
It's no secret my team was built with an eye on the future, but my team is definitely ready to play now. Stockton is doing 15/14/3 shooting a blistering 57%, Miller 16/4/3 shooting 48% (40% from 3), Walter Davis 24/5/3 shooting 51%, and McKey 16/6/3 shooting 50%. The one chance I really have here is to go all out with exceptional guard/wing scoring and try to steal this one. Put the ball in Stockton's hands, have my bigs set hard screens, and let Stock find seams/create. He should be able to utilize Miller's off the ball talents, as well as get Walter Davis the ball where he needs it. What I love about my bigs in this era is that they don't require the ball or any touches offensively and what I'll need of them is exceptional defense as well as to clean up the garbage offensively.

All in all it's going to be an extremely tough matchup, but certainly an exciting one and a chance for my young team to build some character going up against some of the best in Dr. J/Bird and the rest of BI's squad.

[CellarDoor]

Some quick reference points for Miller. Still trying to get some time to write Klees' up. (Sorry man!)

Rebuttal:

Robert Parish:

First there’s the issue of his minutes. He’s going from averaging 31.6 to 36 minutes. This is a pretty substantial increase for him, and I’d question how well his stats are going to transfer over “per 36” as Miller noted. And before we get the minutes increase for playoffs argument…he averaged fewer minutes that year in the POs. Secondly, there’s the issue of his playoff offense. On his career he sho 53.7% from the field in the regular season and averaged 18.4 a game. Pretty nice. His playoff career numbers dip in both categories to 50.6% and 15.3 (his rebounds and assists both go down as well). Explain it however you like, but when you throw a guy, in the playoffs, against 89 Hakeem with the track record, there’s not much argument for the gap closing.

Rodney McCray:

I’ve seen you throwing him around as a defensive stud a few times now, so let’s tackle him next. When he left his twin towers (offensively and defensively) in Houston his DRTG got higher, DWS went down, and from all accounts I’ve found he was exposed as a worse defender than thought. He’s been touted as Houston’s second best player when Hakeem and Sampson took the Rockets on deep playoffs runs. I don’t agree with that at all, and I think Olajuwon and Sampson were the catalyst for a lot of his success defensively. Good a defender as Buck Williams and Parish are, their held D isn’t near the level of the Rockets’ duo. McCray is good, but he isn’t better than his SF counterparts. Advanced stats tell us Johnson’s 86 season Miller has been using was universally inferior to my selected 82 season.

Fat Lever:

Something I haven’t mentioned myself yet that needs to be put out there is that Lever’s stats are absurdly inflated for a number of reasons. The Nuggets played at a frenetic pace, and it beared out if Fat’s stats. Additionally, in Lever’s chosen season the rebounding on his team breaks down to a lot of mediocre to sub par rebounders. Unfortunately there aren’t really any years to see a comparison of him without the pace/bad rebounders for comparison. He had 4 seasons where his TRB% was substantially higher than any of his other seasons though, so I’ll let you decide how much of that is him figuring it out for those seasons and how much is other factors mitigated on a team he’s playing with Buck will alter. And to add, if he’s trying to rebound, who’s stopping the fast break by Floyd? This guy for all his faults can school everyone all the way up to Michael Cooper, and presumably Jordan will be on his man, wherever he may have been on the court.

Michael Jordan:

Remember this version of Mike is an athlete that’s just unfair in comparison, but not the shooter he would become later. He had one gear at this point: get to the basket. My team has the best help defense you’re going to find.

No real points of contention for anyone else on his team. They are what they are. And Buck’s one of my favorite glue guys.

George Gervin:

I’ve seen Miller referring to Gervin in passing a few times, and he’s not getting the respect he deserves. The man took teams with as many scoring problems as some of Jordan’s to nearly identical outputs on slightly less efficiency, and I’ve got the better talent surrounding him to open the floor up. Additionally, he’s going to be tasked with playing McCray/Lever/Nixon on defense. While not an outstanding defender, he’s active in terms of help defense and will be effective we believe.

Leaving work, will finish later.


lol...skimming some old bball articles. 1989 SI best and Worst NBA edition:

Most Overrated: Rodney McCray - Good but not all-star caliber. He was exposed defensively after Sampson was traded & he no longer had the TwinTowers to correct his mistakes

[Miller4ever]

Jordan scored at a 60TS% clip while Gervin did his scoring on 56TS%. And your biggest mistake is severely underrating the offensive prowess of my "4th options". If you want to bring up the '86 finals, how about Rodney McCray going at 58% from the field as a second scoring option to Hakeem, who shot 47%? In fact, I'd rather have 4th scoring options who go for 15 points a game at 58% while being guarded by Bird than 4th scoring options that score 20 points a game at less than 40%, something Marques Johnson seems to do against McCray.

As for Parish/Hakeem, I already gave a larger sample size in that matchup. If you include that playoffs, you're still looking at 51% from Parish and 47% from Hakeem. Had Parish been in his prime in any of his recorded matchups against Hakeem, the gap might even be larger.

And here's a quote about Sleepy Floyd:

There's a reason they called him "Sleepy" -- he had a reputation of drifting in games and only intermittently giving a crap. He always left you with the nagging feeling that he should have been better.

You keep referring to his fastbreak ability. He was great, and many would say unstoppable, but as Jordan, McCray and Lever have proven, if any of them are running with you on a fastbreak, nothing is unstoppable.

I'll put the rest in my writeup.

[Miller4ever]

Oh, yeah....Go for it. Kees, what years are you using?

[-Kees-]

Keeslinator VS Miller


PG: Michael Adams (32) | Rod Strickland (16)
SG: Alvin Robertson (36) | Purvis Short (12)
SF: Scottie Pippen (28) | Purvis Short (20)
PF: Dennis Rodman (32) | Jeff Ruland (16)
Cc: Joe Barry Carroll (38)| Danny Manning (10)


VS

QB Fat Lever '89 (22)/Norm Nixon '82 (26)
Wing Michael Jordan '88 (40)/Fat Lever '89 (8)
Wing Rodney McCray '87 (30)/Adrian Dantley '87 (18)/Gene Banks '84
Big Buck Williams '83 (18)/Otis Thorpe '87 (30)
Big Robert Parish '81 (36)/Buck Williams '83 (12)/Bill Cartwright '83


This is going to be a hard matchup as Miller has the best player that ever played...but I'll give it a try

PG:
Lever is very good, and could stay in front of the likes of Jordan and Dumars, but could he stay against the much quicker Adams? I don't think so. Adams was an extremely explosive scorer. He could, and would, beat you by blowing past you or shooting over you. He shot the 3 at a 35% clip, and led the NBA in 3PT FGs made. He can shoot with or without the ball, and he would make them. Lever couldn't block shots well, and that was basically the only way to completely slow down Adams. On defense, yes Lever and Nixon will have their way, but with so many other great defensive players on my team, I will have lots of help. Between Robertson, Pippen, Rodman and JBC, I should be able to slow down just about anyone going to the hoop. Adams is quick and sneaky enough to steal a couple a game, so those extra possessions should help us score even more.

Wings:
It will be hard to slow down Jordan when he was at his best scoring numbers. But I do have the DPOY at SG, so I would think if anyone could slow down Jordan, it would be Alvin Robertson. His quick hands, fast feet and strength will be the difference in slowing down Jordan. Robertson also is not bad offensively. He could score with a mid range game, pass well for a SG and also drive it to the hoop. He might have some trouble against MJ scoring, but at least making him work will limit MJ offensively because he won't have as much energy.

Say what you want about Pippen, but even at the beginning of his career he was a very fundamental defender. Both him and Rodney McCray were great defenders at their selected year, so at the SF position, I don't expect many point to be scored by either McCray or Pippen. However, off the bench I have Purvis Short, who in the selected year averaged 28.0 PPG. Sure he wasn't the most efficient player (46% FG%, 31% 3PT%, 53% TS%) but a 28 PPG scorer in the 80's isn't something to ignore. He will put tons of pressure on Jordan and McCray on offense, even if he doesn't score TONS.

Bigs:
Although JBC is viewed as a big bust, and to an extent he was, but he could score from the post. He will be our main option on offense for bigs. Parish was in his prime, but we believe that Carroll will be able to score anyways. Rodman was just one year removed from 2 consecutive DPOY awards, and he will anchor our D. He is also, arguably, the greatest rebounder ever and that will help us a lot, because it is one of JBC's weaknesses. Rodman will be able to shut down Williams, as he isn't a great offensive player, and Rodman's amazing D will shut him down.

Overall:
Between all of our amazing defenders, we believe we will be able to slow down the very strong offensive attack that Miller brings. Also, between JBC, Short and Adams, we will score just enough to win games to beat Miller in this series.

[-Kees-]

PG: Michael Adams (32) | Rod Strickland (16)
SG: Alvin Robertson (36) | Purvis Short (12)
SF: Scottie Pippen (28) | Purvis Short (20)
PF: Dennis Rodman (32) | Herb Williams (16)
Cc: Joe Barry Carroll (38)| Danny Manning (10)

VS

McMillan/Floyd/Smith
Gervin/Pressey
Johnson/Pressey
Nance/Lucas
Olajuwon/Rollins

Wow it really sucks to be in a division with Hakeem and Jordan, and I don't have either. Well, here it goes...

PG:
I think this is the one advantage I have over Cellar. Adams will be able to blow past McMillan and score buckets like mad. McMillan only had a DRTG of 107 in the chosen year, and that won't be enough to slow down Adams and Strickland. McMillan wasn't great at D, but he was worse on O. 7/9 isn't much to brag about, and not putting pressure on Adams on D will leave him with more energy for the offensive end.

Wings:
Iceman was a great scorer, we all know that, but Robertson was a great defender as well. With Gervin being about a 25 PPG scorer, I think that Robertson can hold him to 15 a game. Being the DPOY in the year I selected him, he was the best defender in the league that year, and one of the best perimeter defenders of the 80's. His fundamentals were great and his quick hands created a lot more offensive possessions for my team, and Gervin isn't the one to stop him. Robertson himself was 17/6/6, and will put a lot of pressure on Gervin, which should wear him out even more. Between Robertson's great D and complete, but not stellar offense, he will keep Gervin to 15 PPG in this series and maybe score more against his bad D.

From what I've seen, read and researched about Johnson, he was a solid 20/6/3 guy in his career. Solid performer, but nothing special. A young, very athletic Pippen should have no trouble slowing him down. Johnson also isn't great on D, he doesn't have a great DRTG, and he wasn't extremely quick either. Purvis Short will attack him, and a talented scorer like Short should be able to score at his will against a mediocre defender like Johnson.

Overall on your perimeter, I see a lack of great passers. Usually the PG does most of the distrubiting, but McMillan isn't a spectacular playmaker. Gervin, who you claim to be the main ball handler, has never had great vision, or wanted to give up the ball. Between the 2 wings, they average about 6.5 APG, with Gervin having about 3.5. For your main ball handler having only 3.5 APG, I can see your offense slowing down a lot, ESPECIALLY since my team is one of the best defensive teams there is.

Bigs:
Rodman should slow down Nance enough to keep him a bit below his averages. I'm not even going to argue that Hakeem is going to obliterate JBC, but at least JBC can put a bit of pressure on him by posting up a lot and TRYING to score. We will double team him as much as possible and hope he has a bad series.

[Miller4ever]

He’s going from averaging 31.6 to 36 minutes. This is a pretty substantial increase for him, and I’d question how well his stats are going to transfer over “per 36” as Miller noted.

Well, when he went up to 36 minutes a game he was past his prime but still putting in 17 and 10 on 55% shooting. Robert Parish is one of those players whose prime was not utilized to the max because it didn't need to be. Had he been "the guy" on an inferior team, he would probably have more individual awards and more impressive stats. I just know that he's a knockdown shooter for a big, and at 27 years of age, he's in his physical prime. If he can handle more minutes as a 33-year-old and comparable minutes as a 40-year-old, he can squeeze 5 more minutes a game during a series.

Rodney McCray:

I’ve seen you throwing him around as a defensive stud a few times now, so let’s tackle him next. When he left his twin towers (offensively and defensively) in Houston his DRTG got higher, DWS went down, and from all accounts I’ve found he was exposed as a worse defender than thought.

He had a blood disease that cut his career short, and apparently his daughter's illness took him away from basketball a good deal. I don't know when this stuff happened, but almost every wing defender is going to look terrible when you move from a good defensive team like Hakeem's Rockets to the Kings, especially if you go by stats like DRTG and DWS, which tell about 20% of the story their offensive counterparts do and are more reliant on the teams they are on. I could make the exact same argument about Paul Pressey.

Fat Lever:

Something I haven’t mentioned myself yet that needs to be put out there is that Lever’s stats are absurdly inflated for a number of reasons. The Nuggets played at a frenetic pace, and it beared out if Fat’s stats. Additionally, in Lever’s chosen season the rebounding on his team breaks down to a lot of mediocre to sub par rebounders. Unfortunately there aren’t really any years to see a comparison of him without the pace/bad rebounders for comparison. He had 4 seasons where his TRB% was substantially higher than any of his other seasons though, so I’ll let you decide how much of that is him figuring it out for those seasons and how much is other factors mitigated on a team he’s playing with Buck will alter. And to add, if he’s trying to rebound, who’s stopping the fast break by Floyd? This guy for all his faults can school everyone all the way up to Michael Cooper, and presumably Jordan will be on his man, wherever he may have been on the court.

And i factored as much of that into my writeup as I could and I still came out with a substantial advantage. I find the whole "surrounded by mediocre rebounders" doesn't tell the whole story because there's 5 more guys on the opposite team to contend with.

Michael Jordan:

Remember this version of Mike is an athlete that’s just unfair in comparison, but not the shooter he would become later. He had one gear at this point: get to the basket. My team has the best help defense you’re going to find.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiBQ05cXt04
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66gXIo9Z ... re=related

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Jordan's always been pretty good at jumpshooting. You can see him utilizing screens and stepping pretty far out. Obviously, he can cut a defense in half, and that's preferred, because if you can score at will against 3 or more frontcourt defenders like Sampson, Hakeem, Parish, McHale, Bird, McCray, you don't need to space for yourself. But he can. And if you clog the paint you make Parish and McCray the instant #2 and #3 options. I also totally forgot to mention that he's the best closer the game has ever seen, in almost any year.