Middle America Semis - Fadeaway_J* vs. Snakebites

[Laimbeer]

Here is a quick list of what you need in your writeup.

1. Specific years for each player on your team
2. Rotations and minutes for each player
3. Reasoning as to why your team will win and/or why people should vote for you.

Do not vote in this thread until both managers have submitted their writeups.

If writeups aren't posted within 24 hours, we will vote solely based on their roster page.

**First to 4 votes advances**

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[Fadeaway_J]

Starters
C - Jack Sikma (1981-82)

Spoiler:

19.6 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.2 spg, 1.3 bpg, .479 FG%, .855 FT%, .559 TS%, 20.6 PER
- Led the NBA in DRB% (28.0), DWS (6.7)
- NBA All-Star
- All-Defensive Second Team

PF - Buck Williams (1991-92)

Spoiler:

11.3 ppg, 8.8 rpg, 1.4 apg, 0.8 spg, 0.5 bpg, .604 FG%, .754 FT%, .651 TS%, 15.0 PER
- Led the NBA in FG%, TS%
- All-Defensive Second Team

SF - Kevin Durant (2012-13)

Spoiler:

28.1 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.3 bpg, .510 FG%, .416 FT%, .905 FT%, 139 3P, .647 TS%, 28.3 PER
- Led the NBA in PTS (2,280), FT (679), FT%
- NBA All-Star
- All-NBA First Team

SG - Gordon Hayward (2016-17)

Spoiler:

21.9 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 3.5 apg, 1.0 spg, 0.3 bpg, .471 FG%, .398 3P%, .844 FT%, 149 3P, .595 TS%, 22.2 PER
- NBA All-Star

PG - Mike Conley (2012-13)

Spoiler:

14.6 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 6.1 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.3 bpg, .440 FG%, .362 3P%, .830 FT%, 106 3P, .549 TS%, 18.3 PER
- Led the NBA in steals (174)
- All-Defensive Second Team

Bench
C - DeSagana Diop (2005-06)

Spoiler:

2.3 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 0.3 apg, 0.5 spg, .487 FG%, .542 FT%, .512 TS%, 11.5 PER

F - Ron Artest (2008-09)

Spoiler:

17.1 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.3 bpg, .401 FG%, .399 3P%, .748 FT%, 153 3P, .512 TS%, 15.6 PER
- All-Defensive Second Team

G - Antonio Daniels (2003-04)

Spoiler:

8.0 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 4.2 apg, 0.6 spg, 0.1 bpg, .470 FG%, .362 3P%, .842 FT%, .596 TS%, 19.7 PER
- Led the NBA in ORtg (129)

Rotations
C - Sikma (38), Diop (8), Williams (2)
PF - Durant (26), Williams (22)
SF - Durant (14), Artest (30), Hayward (4)
SG - Hayward (34), Daniels (8), Artest (6)
PG - Conley (38), Daniels (10)

Strategy

Spoiler:

The key to our success will be the our wing talent which is probably the strongest in this game. Of course it all starts with KD who needs no introduction, but we've also got a perfect complement for him in Hayward, who is not only great at creating his own shot, but also excels at spotting up, curling off screens, cutting to the basket, and filling the lanes in transition - all of which should make him an ideal #2 guy on the perimeter. Supplementing them is our super sixth man Ron Artest, an elite defender who at this point in his career is a reliable 3-point shooter on high volume. He should have plenty of joy beating up on opposing second units (he actually played a few games off the bench in 2008-09 and his numbers were actually a little better on a per 36 basis) and he can also play alongside KD and Hayward in an alignment that will allow us to switch liberally on defense while being a nightmare for opponents to match up with.

We're not just relying on the wing guys of course. Up front we've got peak Sikma taking opposing centers out of their comfort zone with his ability to shoot and make plays from the high post. He'll be well complemented by the ultimate glue guy in Buck, who will score efficiently in simple ways - duck-ins, crashing the offensive glass, running the floor, and the occasional short jumper - without needing plays to be called for him. Conley is a smart and unselfish floor general who knows how to get his big guns the ball in the right spots, but can also take on a larger burden if the need arises. Rounding out the rotation are Daniels (who randomly posted some of the best advanced stats I've ever seen from a backup PG in 2003-04 ) and a solid defensive center in Diop.

Taking our team as a whole, we believe can defend all five positions at a high level and have the versatility to match up with more orthodox two-big lineups as well as smallball equally effectively. At the other end, we've got probably the best offensive weapon in this player pool in KD, and have surrounded him with plenty of shooting and playmaking. Our smaller lineup with Hayward-KD-Artest at the 2-3-4 spots is a trump card few teams if any will be able to counter.

Matchup
We're going with KD on Dirk to start. At this point in his career Dirk hadn't refined his post game to the degree he would later on, and could still be bothered by rangy, athletic wing players (which is exactly what happened in the chosen season where Stephen Jackson hounded him to probably the worst series of his career). KD is a clear step up from Jackson in the "rangy, athletic wing player" department, so we like his chances of slowing Dirk down some. Artest will also get some minutes on Dirk, but will be primarily used to try and make English's life miserable. Diop's minutes will be staggered to avoid matching with Dirk at the 5; instead, he'll be guarded by Sikma and Williams, both of him are top-notch individual defenders who move their feet well and should do a decent job. Conley's pestiferous defense should be effective against a non-peak version of Nash.

Offensively, we feel like we can have some joy against Snake's core lineups. Nash and English are both minus defenders in the context of this game, and Dirk is so-so for a big man. Assuming Posey is on KD, Hayward has a favourable matchup against English. Conley should be able to get into the lane at will against Nash, especially with the spacing around him here. Sikma's shooting ability will make it harder for Deke to lay in wait at the rim, which will be a problem given the lack of plus defenders elsewhere in the starting five. Roberson can mitigate the issue somewhat, but last season showed what a glaring minus he can be on offense in a playoff setting, so we'll happily take that trade-off.

Ultimately, we believe we match up nicely with Snake offensively (with the right personnel to attack his shaky perimeter defenders and a shooting big man to hamper Deke's rim protection somewhat) and defensively (rangy wings to throw at Dirk and an elite defender in Artest to check English), which should nudge us over the line although our teams are similar in quality in a vacuum.

Good luck Snake.

[Snakebites]

Nash 02-03 13.6 FGA All NBA Third Team, 11.6 WS, 57.6 TS%
Posey 03-04 9.4 FGA 10.0 WS, 61.4 TS%, 38.6% from three
English 81-82 18.9 FGA 25 PPG, All NBA Second, 59.6 TS%
Dirk 06-07 17.2 FGA MVP, 17.3 WS (lead NBA), 60.5 TS%
Mutombo 94-95 7.7 FGA DPOY, 12.5 RPG, 3.9 BPG

Bench:

Derek Harper 86-87 12.9 FGA 20.0 PER, All Defensive Second, 2.2 SPG,
Andre Roberson 16-17 5.9 FGA All Defensive Second
Boris Diaw 12-13 4.4 FGA 60.3 TS%

90/90 FGA

Rotation:

Steve Nash (36)/Derek Harper (12)
James Posey (24)/Derek Harper (18)/Andre Roberson (6)
Alex English (37)/Andre Roberson (11)
Dirk Nowizki (25)/Posey (10)/Boris Diaw (13)
Dikembe Mutombo (36)/Dirk Nowizki (12)

Sorry fade, you can't actually start Durant in two places at once.

Alrighty, lets roll.

Heck of a team Fade has. I voted for it to rank fairly highly myself, but I think we've got the horses to handle it here, with a firm and rock solid advantage up front and the ability to hold our own on the perimeter with our own two perimeter stars (Nash and English).

Defensively, look for us to put Mutombo on Buck when he's out there. I'm guessing he's not starting in this matchup but Fade's rotation is confusing and contradictory. In whatever time Sikma is out there with perimeter players we'll probably simply dare him to shoot out there. He was a solid shooter for his time, but not out to three point range. It'll hurt us some but not enough to sacrifice Mutombo's rim protection in order to do it. Dirk will guard whoever the weakest perimeter option is, which will likely be Artest, who was inefficient even in the best of circumstances in his Houston days, and was also past his peak defensively, too.

As for the perimeter, the obvious play here is to put Posey on Durant. He's big and physical enough to be an appropriate choice here. English isn't the best defender, but then again, neither is Gordon Hayward. Durant at power forward shakes us up a little on paper, but outside of Hayward and Durant he really doesn't have that third perimeter player who's impressive enough offensively to block us from simply keeping Posey or Roberson on Durant the majority of the time, especially since we can switch Posey into the 4 spot as well.

Conley is a nice player who will get outplayed even by a pre-prime version of Steve Nash.

I think Fade is really overselling this version of Kevin Durant defensively. This isn't Warriors Durant, this is Thunder Durant, who in most respects was a pretty underwhelming player defensively. I think calling him a better version of Stephen Jackson in that regard is really asking people to forget that. Certainly, you can anectdotally find examples of smaller players giving Dirk some trouble, but it's not really something similar to anything this version of KD was ever asked to do, so I'm skeptical that he'll be able to prevent Dirk from having a hell of a series regardless.

While Fade does have solid man defenders, I think the lack of a conventional rim protector really hurts him in this matchup. Sikma was really more of a solid man defender, and that's going to be wasted in a matchup against my team, which lacks a Kareem-style conventional post up center and relies on a more modern offensive approach. We've not only got solid perimeter defenders in Posey, Harper, and Roberson, but we've really got the only weakside help to be found anywhere in this series in Mutombo.

Overall, I think we've got the edge here. Vote Snake!

[Dr Positivity]

I'm just going to assume Artest is starting SF and Durant starting PF based on those minutes

Snakebites has one of the most elite offensive teams but when ranking teams defensively I had concerns with the combination of Nash, English and Dirk. Fadeaway is a little better on defense but not as strong on offense. I don't love putting Durant on Dirk, Durant isn't used to that type of defensive matchup at this point in his career. I don't love the strategy of leaving Mutombo leaving Sikma open. It's one thing for obvious liabilities like Tony Allen or Andre Roberson, but players where skill is a strength like Sikma will hit open shots when you give it to them and he should hit enough to force Mutombo out onto the perimeter to at least slightly bother him. Posey is a solid defender but not an all-league type of one, and I think Durant should still have his way in that matchup. Defending Hayward will be difficult when the best wing defender is on Durant, English should have trouble with him. Fade has a great defender to put on English in Artest so English guarding Hayward isn't cancelled out by Hayward guarding English. Conley is a good defensive point for Nash. Even against an ok creator like Artest I'm not sure a big in Dirk guarding him will work the best. Buck and Derek Harper are both strong bench players. Overall I like the matchups for Fade here and think Snake's defense will cost him. His biggest advantage on defense is rim protection in Mutombo but in a series with Durant, Hayward, Sikma on one side and Nash, Dirk, English on the other, it's so perimeter orientated that the shotblocker isn't going to be as big a factor

Vote Fadeaway_J

[Fadeaway_J]

Defensively, look for us to put Mutombo on Buck when he's out there. I'm guessing he's not starting in this matchup but Fade's rotation is confusing and contradictory.

Sorry, I meant to say that Artest was starting with KD but didn't make it clear in the writeup.

I think Fade is really overselling this version of Kevin Durant defensively. This isn't Warriors Durant, this is Thunder Durant, who in most respects was a pretty underwhelming player defensively. I think calling him a better version of Stephen Jackson in that regard is really asking people to forget that. Certainly, you can anectdotally find examples of smaller players giving Dirk some trouble, but it's not really something similar to anything this version of KD was ever asked to do, so I'm skeptical that he'll be able to prevent Dirk from having a hell of a series regardless.

I'm not overselling him at all (although calling him "underwhelming" is an exaggeration to me, as is trying to imply that English and Hayward are at a similar level defensively). Stephen Jackson wasn't some kind of elite defender. Neither was T-Mac who also had a similar effect on Dirk in a series two years prior. In fact, for most of their careers you could argue they were worse than even Thunder KD. It's not about them being "great" defenders, it's about them having the right athletic makeup to give Dirk trouble.

[Fadeaway_J]

Bump. Need votes.

[Fadeaway_J]

Don't all rush in at once.

[poopdamoop]

I'd rank Snake higher in a vacuum, but think this is a bad matchup for him. Lots of lanky wings to throw at Dirk and a shooting C to pull Deke out of the paint. I do think English is similar to Hayward defensively and that he'll outplay him offensively and I think Derek Harper off the bench is fantastic, but I don't see Nash/Dirk having good enough games to take this series over.

Vote: Fadeaway_J

[BdeRegt]

I think Snake takes this one and don't think it would be that close of a series. Dikembe is basically the perfect center to pair with Dirk. He can erase a lot defensively. I think Dirk will be fine guarding Artest also. KD will get his offensively but don't think it will be enough to overcome Nash/English/Dirk

Vote: Snake

[Snakebites]

Defensively, look for us to put Mutombo on Buck when he's out there. I'm guessing he's not starting in this matchup but Fade's rotation is confusing and contradictory.

Sorry, I meant to say that Artest was starting with KD but didn't make it clear in the writeup.

I think Fade is really overselling this version of Kevin Durant defensively. This isn't Warriors Durant, this is Thunder Durant, who in most respects was a pretty underwhelming player defensively. I think calling him a better version of Stephen Jackson in that regard is really asking people to forget that. Certainly, you can anectdotally find examples of smaller players giving Dirk some trouble, but it's not really something similar to anything this version of KD was ever asked to do, so I'm skeptical that he'll be able to prevent Dirk from having a hell of a series regardless.

I'm not overselling him at all (although calling him "underwhelming" is an exaggeration to me, as is trying to imply that English and Hayward are at a similar level defensively). Stephen Jackson wasn't some kind of elite defender. Neither was T-Mac who also had a similar effect on Dirk in a series two years prior. In fact, for most of their careers you could argue they were worse than even Thunder KD. It's not about them being "great" defenders, it's about them having the right athletic makeup to give Dirk trouble.

If you genuinely believe any halfway decent long armed wing can negate Dirk than its time to drop Dirk into 3rd round pick territory. He certainly shouldn't be a first rounder or anything close to it if stopping him is as simple as that.

I'll ask people to use the smell test here. That just doesn't make sense.

[Fadeaway_J]

Defensively, look for us to put Mutombo on Buck when he's out there. I'm guessing he's not starting in this matchup but Fade's rotation is confusing and contradictory.

Sorry, I meant to say that Artest was starting with KD but didn't make it clear in the writeup.

I think Fade is really overselling this version of Kevin Durant defensively. This isn't Warriors Durant, this is Thunder Durant, who in most respects was a pretty underwhelming player defensively. I think calling him a better version of Stephen Jackson in that regard is really asking people to forget that. Certainly, you can anectdotally find examples of smaller players giving Dirk some trouble, but it's not really something similar to anything this version of KD was ever asked to do, so I'm skeptical that he'll be able to prevent Dirk from having a hell of a series regardless.

I'm not overselling him at all (although calling him "underwhelming" is an exaggeration to me, as is trying to imply that English and Hayward are at a similar level defensively). Stephen Jackson wasn't some kind of elite defender. Neither was T-Mac who also had a similar effect on Dirk in a series two years prior. In fact, for most of their careers you could argue they were worse than even Thunder KD. It's not about them being "great" defenders, it's about them having the right athletic makeup to give Dirk trouble.

If you genuinely believe any halfway decent long armed wing can negate Dirk than its time to drop Dirk into 3rd round pick territory. He certainly shouldn't be a first rounder or anything close to it if stopping him is as simple as that.

I'll ask people to use the smell test here. That just doesn't make sense.

It's funny how the words "bother" or "cause trouble" become "negate" or "stop" when you want to prove a point.

Of course, what Jackson and T-Mac (who were no better than "halfway decent" defensively) did to Dirk in real life was a lot worse than my wording would suggest. It's not like I'm revealing some kind of secret here.

[8on]

Finally. #dirkfor3rdround #dantleyisbetter #dantleyforpresident

[Snakebites]

Sorry, I meant to say that Artest was starting with KD but didn't make it clear in the writeup.


I'm not overselling him at all (although calling him "underwhelming" is an exaggeration to me, as is trying to imply that English and Hayward are at a similar level defensively). Stephen Jackson wasn't some kind of elite defender. Neither was T-Mac who also had a similar effect on Dirk in a series two years prior. In fact, for most of their careers you could argue they were worse than even Thunder KD. It's not about them being "great" defenders, it's about them having the right athletic makeup to give Dirk trouble.

If you genuinely believe any halfway decent long armed wing can negate Dirk than its time to drop Dirk into 3rd round pick territory. He certainly shouldn't be a first rounder or anything close to it if stopping him is as simple as that.

I'll ask people to use the smell test here. That just doesn't make sense.

It's funny how the words "bother" or "cause trouble" become "negate" or "stop" when you want to prove a point.

Of course, what Jackson and T-Mac (who were no better than "halfway decent" defensively) did to Dirk in real life was a lot worse than my wording would suggest. It's not like I'm revealing some kind of secret here.

Yeah, your invocation of those examples really undermines your "oh, I was only saying it would bother him" argument. Take the "stop" argument away. That's fine. Remove that wording entirely, and I still stand by what I said.

You're essentially arguing that guys that can hinder Dirk practically grow on trees (since yes, wing defenders on the lanky side that are as effective as Durant was in OKC more or less do that), and I simply don't find that justifiable and don't like the precedent it sets if this tactic works on voters.

[Fadeaway_J]

If you genuinely believe any halfway decent long armed wing can negate Dirk than its time to drop Dirk into 3rd round pick territory. He certainly shouldn't be a first rounder or anything close to it if stopping him is as simple as that.

I'll ask people to use the smell test here. That just doesn't make sense.

It's funny how the words "bother" or "cause trouble" become "negate" or "stop" when you want to prove a point.

Of course, what Jackson and T-Mac (who were no better than "halfway decent" defensively) did to Dirk in real life was a lot worse than my wording would suggest. It's not like I'm revealing some kind of secret here.

Yeah, your invocation of those examples really undermines your "oh, I was only saying it would bother him" argument. Take the "stop" argument away. That's fine. Remove that wording entirely, and I still stand by what I said.

You're essentially arguing that guys that can hinder Dirk practically grow on trees (since yes, wing defenders on the lanky side that are as effective as Durant was in OKC more or less do that), and I simply don't find that justifiable and don't like the precedent it sets if this tactic works on voters.

What I'm "essentially" saying is that arguably the two worst playoff series of Dirk's career came when he was defended by players who fit the KD profile athletically (going as far as to explain why I thought Dirk was more susceptible to that kind of defender at that point in his career), so I therefore think KD can do a good job of guarding him. In other words, making an argument as to why I think I can win the matchup. Your righteous indignation at this underhanded tactic is inspirational, but I'm not going to apologise for trying to "hoodwink" the voters by pointing out something that isn't exactly a new or original idea.

The funny thing is, if the shoe were on the other foot this is exactly the kind of argument that you would be beating into the ground (as you are doing now on my behalf) in order to sway voters, but now you want to act like it's some kind of war crime. Cry me a river. If my nefarious scheme works for me then so be it. I've said all I need to say, and I'll let the poor unsuspecting voters fend for themselves now.

[euroleague]

I see a pretty big talent differential with KD/Hayward/Sickma vs 03Nash/Dirk/English. Conley, if this was his best season, would tip the balance in favor of fadeaway - but Dirk/Nash with Mutombo on the inside is a nice combination.

Conley wasn't the superstar he was in his later years, and won't be able to handle Nash. Harper and Roberson coming off the bench are great defensive pieces, who can guard any wing players who get too hot. But, nobody in this match-up can guard Dirk/English.

Vote Snakebites

[Laimbeer]

Two of my top four teams here, Snake's D is quite suspect and that's a lot Deke is trying to cover while occupied with a solid shooter in Sikma. Neither has a great defensive answer for the other's big gun, though I think Fade's is a bit better.

Vote: Fade

[Laimbeer]

Fade leads 3-2.

Need votes, folks.

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[Laimbeer]

Bump

[Fadeaway_J]

16 drafters and we can't get more than five votes? Come on people.

[lilroddyb]

Vote Fade

I think Snake Defense is not good enough especially if Dikembe will be dragged away from the rim guarding Sikma. Both Dirk and Durant will score a lot but I see Fade slowing Snake more than vice versa.