T&T Games General Drafting/Off-Topic Thread

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Re: T&T Games General Drafting/Off-Topic Thread 

Post#221 » by Snakebites » Sat Jan 7, 2023 3:01 pm

Fadeaway_J wrote:2022-23 is obviously a step in a vacuum, but I'm not sure how much it changes my outlook on Luka in the context of these games. His style of play is very extreme, both in terms of the level of ball-dominance and the type of players you need to put alongside him. I think he's a better player than T-Mac and his draft position usually reflects that, but T-Mac has a game that is easier to fit alongside most other great players. (Back in his era, even the most ball-dominant wing scorers were accustomed to working off the ball, feeding post-up bigs, etc.) If the current spread pick-and-roll playstyle had been in vogue 20 years ago, we would have more high-end players who are natural fits with Luka, but that's not the case in reality.

Yeah, that’s my issue building with Luka and why each of the 3-4 times I’ve tried to do so have fallen utterly flat. He has ZERO flexibility in terms of how you build with him. You need 3 shooters and a big man who is effective in the pick and roll. Any deviation from that is soundly rejected- and this may sometimes prevent you from getting the highest quality guys, since shooters and effective roll men are in demand for MOST teams in these- and if you don’t get high quality guys in those roles you’re out.

Oh, and his poor defense means it’s hard to use non-defensive shooters.

I think I’ll be avoiding him where other options exist from here on out.
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Re: T&T Games General Drafting/Off-Topic Thread 

Post#222 » by Fadeaway_J » Sat Jan 7, 2023 3:26 pm

Snakebites wrote:
Fadeaway_J wrote:2022-23 is obviously a step in a vacuum, but I'm not sure how much it changes my outlook on Luka in the context of these games. His style of play is very extreme, both in terms of the level of ball-dominance and the type of players you need to put alongside him. I think he's a better player than T-Mac and his draft position usually reflects that, but T-Mac has a game that is easier to fit alongside most other great players. (Back in his era, even the most ball-dominant wing scorers were accustomed to working off the ball, feeding post-up bigs, etc.) If the current spread pick-and-roll playstyle had been in vogue 20 years ago, we would have more high-end players who are natural fits with Luka, but that's not the case in reality.

Yeah, that’s my issue building with Luka and why each of the 3-4 times I’ve tried to do so have fallen utterly flat. He has ZERO flexibility in terms of how you build with him. You need 3 shooters and a big man who is effective in the pick and roll. Any deviation from that is soundly rejected- and this may sometimes prevent you from getting the highest quality guys, since shooters and effective roll men are in demand for MOST teams in these- and if you don’t get high quality guys in those roles you’re out.

Oh, and his poor defense means it’s hard to use non-defensive shooters.

I think I’ll be avoiding him where other options exist from here on out.

The only deviation from that template is that secondary ballhandlers like Brunson and Dinwiddie have done fine alongside him. That of course requires a very specific type as well though: a Lowry or a Billups who has experience sharing those responsibilities with another lead guard (and even they would be giving up a fair amount of primacy compared to real life). And again, if you don't get the absolute highest-end version of the required archetype, you probably won't have enough talent to win it all.
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Re: T&T Games General Drafting/Off-Topic Thread 

Post#223 » by Dr Positivity » Wed Feb 1, 2023 3:18 am

I was reading the NHL version of RealGM and found their version of the T&T draft game. The differences was kind of interesting in that they only draft once a year and give people 24 hours to pick with much bigger rosters so it takes a while. They seem pretty intense into it. I probably would've signed up and tried to BS my way through it but I'm about a month too late. https://forums.hfboards.com/forums/all-time-draft.181/
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Re: T&T Games General Drafting/Off-Topic Thread 

Post#224 » by durantbird » Thu Feb 2, 2023 7:44 am

Walker Kessler's rookie season seems like pretty good value. For 4.7 FGA, he currently shoots 70% TS, has 20.8 PER, 1.0 OBPM and 1.4 DBPM, and of course a very good blocker. Don't know if he'll crack the rotation of drafted bigs because there are many good value bigs out there, but I think he'll be someone worth to have on your radar.
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Re: T&T Games General Drafting/Off-Topic Thread 

Post#225 » by durantbird » Fri Feb 10, 2023 1:52 pm

Am I the only one who thinks Chris Andersen is highly overrated in these games? I don't see him as a step above other minimal price bigs, yet he keeps getting picked very early and sometimes even getting considerable rotation minutes.
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Re: T&T Games General Drafting/Off-Topic Thread 

Post#226 » by Dr Positivity » Sat Feb 11, 2023 6:49 pm

durantbird wrote:Am I the only one who thinks Chris Andersen is highly overrated in these games? I don't see him as a step above other minimal price bigs, yet he keeps getting picked very early and sometimes even getting considerable rotation minutes.


For backup bigs that are exactly 3.0 FGA I'd put Birdman against anyone except maybe George Johnson when he's eligible. I agree though he should always be 8-10 minutes and it's pointless to draft him anywhere but round 8 since I like some other guys like Gortat and Collison as much.
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Re: T&T Games General Drafting/Off-Topic Thread 

Post#227 » by flaco » Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:27 pm

Never understood why most posters keep assigning individual defensive matchups. With the ammount of swithing in the modern game, all it takes is one pick to change everything. Here's a video showcasing why assigning individual defensive matchups is completely pointless.

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Re: T&T Games General Drafting/Off-Topic Thread 

Post#228 » by Fadeaway_J » Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:37 pm

flaco wrote:Never understood why most posters keep assigning individual defensive matchups. With the ammount of swithing in the modern game, all it takes is one pick to change everything. Here's a video showcasing why assigning individual defensive matchups is completely pointless.


I've already answered this question for you multiple times, but the key point starts at 0:46 of the video.

Hint: most teams in these games aren't built to force teams to switch a lot.
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Re: T&T Games General Drafting/Off-Topic Thread 

Post#229 » by flaco » Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:21 pm

Fadeaway_J wrote:
flaco wrote:Never understood why most posters keep assigning individual defensive matchups. With the ammount of swithing in the modern game, all it takes is one pick to change everything. Here's a video showcasing why assigning individual defensive matchups is completely pointless.


I've already answered this question for you multiple times, but the key point starts at 0:46 of the video.

Hint: most teams in these games aren't built to force teams to switch a lot.

Switch-heavy defensive schemes were popularized with the emergence of the pace-and-space era. Switching is the best way to ensure that the opponent always has a defender on his face, ready to challenge his shot. I would argue most teams in our games are loaded with shooters, which means they are built to force switches. Loads of old-school stars are frequently left on the board only because they are unproven shooters.
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Re: T&T Games General Drafting/Off-Topic Thread 

Post#230 » by Fadeaway_J » Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:31 pm

flaco wrote:
Fadeaway_J wrote:
flaco wrote:Never understood why most posters keep assigning individual defensive matchups. With the ammount of swithing in the modern game, all it takes is one pick to change everything. Here's a video showcasing why assigning individual defensive matchups is completely pointless.


I've already answered this question for you multiple times, but the key point starts at 0:46 of the video.

Hint: most teams in these games aren't built to force teams to switch a lot.

Switch-heavy defensive schemes were popularized with the emergence of the pace-and-space era. Switching is the best way to ensure that the opponent always has a defender on his face, ready to challenge his shot. I would argue most teams in our games are loaded with shooters, which means they are built to force switches. Loads of old-school stars are frequently left on the board only because they are unproven shooters.

Most teams have good shooters sure, but very few of them are truly going four- or five-out, or even have a PG who is a threat to kill you by spamming pick-and-roll. In fact, there are plenty of matchups in these games where I would say it would be unwise to default to heavy switching. Even in the current NBA, a switch-heavy scheme becomes vulnerable if you have a couple of weaker defenders on the floor.
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Re: T&T Games General Drafting/Off-Topic Thread 

Post#231 » by durantbird » Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:41 pm

Continuing flaco's point, I already commented about this once or twice. I think things like defensive assignments make little sense, but because of a different reason.

I don't think this is a coaching game, this is a GM-ing game. I think we should generally focus on highlighting why our teams are superior to their opponents. Sure, you might want to specify your defensive strategy to explain why you will win, but this sometimes goes to the extent of "if X had wrote he'll handle player Y in a different way / put some other defender on him, I might have voted differently". This makes no sense to me, drafters can try to explain what defensive strategy could benefit their team, but since we don't simulate coaching, if one thinks a different strategy would produce better results, he should just assume this strategy is used, I believe.
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Re: T&T Games General Drafting/Off-Topic Thread 

Post#232 » by Fadeaway_J » Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:54 pm

durantbird wrote:Continuing flaco's point, I already commented about this once or twice. I think things like defensive assignments make little sense, but because of a different reason.

I don't think this is a coaching game, this is a GM-ing game. I think we should generally focus on highlighting why our teams are superior to their opponents. Sure, you might want to specify your defensive strategy to explain why you will win, but this sometimes goes to the extent of "if X had wrote he'll handle player Y in a different way / put some other defender on him, I might have voted differently". This makes no sense to me, drafters can try to explain what defensive strategy could benefit their team, but since we don't simulate coaching, if one thinks a different strategy would produce better results, he should just assume this strategy is used, I believe.

I hear that perspective, but it's not one I share. To me, part of putting a team together should be knowing the strengths and weaknesses of your players and the best way to deploy them in a series. It can't be that we should just assume the "coach" will choose the optimal strategy - that doesn't even happen in real life. Besides, we usually only deal in broad strokes like base defensive assignments and offensive strategy, it's not like we're asking players to draw up ATOs. For me, judging those basic strategic choices as part of the voting is perfectly fair.
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Re: T&T Games General Drafting/Off-Topic Thread 

Post#233 » by flaco » Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:21 pm

Fadeaway_J wrote:
flaco wrote:
Fadeaway_J wrote:I've already answered this question for you multiple times, but the key point starts at 0:46 of the video.

Hint: most teams in these games aren't built to force teams to switch a lot.

Switch-heavy defensive schemes were popularized with the emergence of the pace-and-space era. Switching is the best way to ensure that the opponent always has a defender on his face, ready to challenge his shot. I would argue most teams in our games are loaded with shooters, which means they are built to force switches. Loads of old-school stars are frequently left on the board only because they are unproven shooters.

Most teams have good shooters sure, but very few of them are truly going four- or five-out, or even have a PG who is a threat to kill you by spamming pick-and-roll. In fact, there are plenty of matchups in these games where I would say it would be unwise to default to heavy switching. Even in the current NBA, a switch-heavy scheme becomes vulnerable if you have a couple of weaker defenders on the floor.

Guys like CP3, Luka, Nash, Harden, Stockton, Kidd are PnR maestros and they are always selected when eligible. Not to mention, there are plenty of shooting PGs like Steph, Lillard, Lowry, etc. Off the top of my head, the only old-school, starting-caliber PG who regularly gets selected in our games is Penny. He doesn't force switches on offense (opponents can go under the pick and dare him to shoot), but he thrives in a switch-heavy scheme on defense cause he's 6'7''.

Anyway, let's agree to disagree. Personally, I think assigning individual defensive matchups is rather pointless. I almost never take them into consideration when voting. I mainly focus on versatility (= size, length and athleticism) and BBIQ when evaluating defense. There are always exceptions like Shaq or Wilt, but even then, defense is a team job, not a sum of five 1-vs-1 matchups. To a lesser extent, the same goes for offense. Thing is, elite offense beats elite defense. All-time great scorers like Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, KD, Bird, Dirk, etc. are unguardable. No point discouraging them from playing 1-on-1 if they feel like going for it.
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Re: T&T Games General Drafting/Off-Topic Thread 

Post#234 » by Colbinii » Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:06 pm

2023 Harden is going to be a huge value in future games.
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Re: T&T Games General Drafting/Off-Topic Thread 

Post#235 » by Dr Positivity » Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:10 pm

Some recent examples off the top of my head of individual defense in playoffs

In 2018 playoffs Rockets almost beat Warriors in part because Ariza did great guarding Durant

In 2019 playoffs Marc Gasol defended Embiid really well (and humiliated Vucevic), Kawhi being able to guard Giannis changed defensive gameplan, and FVV defending Curry. In 2020 playoffs Brown guarding Siakam so well lead to their exit.

In 2021 playoffs Bucks were a bad matchup for Suns in part because of Holiday defense against Booker/Paul
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Re: T&T Games General Drafting/Off-Topic Thread 

Post#236 » by Fadeaway_J » Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:18 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:Some recent examples off the top of my head of individual defense in playoffs

In 2018 playoffs Rockets almost beat Warriors in part because Ariza did great guarding Durant

In 2019 playoffs Marc Gasol defended Embiid really well (and humiliated Vucevic), Kawhi being able to guard Giannis changed defensive gameplan, and FVV defending Curry. In 2020 playoffs Brown guarding Siakam so well lead to their exit.

In 2021 playoffs Bucks were a bad matchup for Suns in part because of Holiday defense against Booker/Paul

Also, teams switch to different degrees. The Gobert Jazz never had the versatility to switch. Milwaukee didn't really embrace it until they added Tucker.

Of course there is more switching than before and it's harder to hide weak defenders in today's game, but the notion that every team is switching every matchup and one-on-one defense doesn't matter just isn't based in reality.
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Re: T&T Games General Drafting/Off-Topic Thread 

Post#237 » by flaco » Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:28 am

Fadeaway_J wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:Some recent examples off the top of my head of individual defense in playoffs

In 2018 playoffs Rockets almost beat Warriors in part because Ariza did great guarding Durant

In 2019 playoffs Marc Gasol defended Embiid really well (and humiliated Vucevic), Kawhi being able to guard Giannis changed defensive gameplan, and FVV defending Curry. In 2020 playoffs Brown guarding Siakam so well lead to their exit.

In 2021 playoffs Bucks were a bad matchup for Suns in part because of Holiday defense against Booker/Paul

Also, teams switch to different degrees. The Gobert Jazz never had the versatility to switch. Milwaukee didn't really embrace it until they added Tucker.

Of course there is more switching than before and it's harder to hide weak defenders in today's game, but the notion that every team is switching every matchup and one-on-one defense doesn't matter just isn't based in reality.

Straw man argument

For the record, the Gobert Jazz were overperforming in the regular season and underperforming in the playoffs. Gobert was practically unplayable in the Clippers series in 2021 when the Jazz had the #1 seed cause he couldn't defend the corner 3.

The Bucks run loads of different schemes: Portis hedges, BroLo drops, Giannis operates as a free safety, etc. All these are team moves, not 1-on-1 defense. More often than not, the 1-on-1 offense comes after the first pick is set, which is why the original individual assignments mean close to nothing.
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Re: T&T Games General Drafting/Off-Topic Thread 

Post#238 » by damecurry » Tue Apr 11, 2023 1:51 pm

Do we still track games/records and stuff anywhere? The stickied thread for it seems super outdated. Where's this spreadsheet tracking the nba players success in these games that I've seen mentioned?
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Re: T&T Games General Drafting/Off-Topic Thread 

Post#239 » by Fadeaway_J » Tue Apr 11, 2023 2:10 pm

damecurry wrote:Do we still track games/records and stuff anywhere? The stickied thread for it seems super outdated. Where's this spreadsheet tracking the nba players success in these games that I've seen mentioned?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wjxTZyAIql1__q2XPiq1E5rtj6cwiOc2AeZiCLFSCrA/edit?usp=drivesdk
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Re: T&T Games General Drafting/Off-Topic Thread 

Post#240 » by durantbird » Mon May 22, 2023 9:30 am

Gabe Vincent was drafted only once to this day, in the All Corners of the World draft.

7.5/8.3 FGA is pretty good value for a 3&d guard who is also an established playoff performer. Interesting to see when he'll be drafted again.

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