RealGM

As noted in the title, these are due Monday, August 24, 2009 at 11:00 P.M. Eastern time.

On a side note, I assume rebuttals usually occur in these sorts of things. For those of you with past experience, are the rebuttals an informal sort of thing that just naturally happens? Or is there typically a particular set of rules and specifications on amount of rebuttals, deadline, etc?

Cellardoor vs. Snakebites:

First of all I want to commend snakebites for putting together a very nice team here. This may be the most interesting match-up of the first round simply because of the similarities across the board on our team.

Line-ups:
Payton(36)/Cheeks(12)
Moncrief(36)/Sloan(12)
Barry(36)/Jones(12)
Williams(30)/Jones(18)
Mourning(36)Laimbeer(12)
--------------------------------
PG: Deron (34)/Bing (14)/Van Lier (defensive situations only)
SG: Jordan (39)/Johnson (7/Bing (2)
SF: Pierce (33)/AK47 (10)/ Johnson (5)
PF: Lucas (34)/AK47 (8)/Jones (6)
C: Gilmore (33)/Lanier (15)

It's so much fun to look at those line-ups. The greatest perimeter defender ever against the greatest perimeter offensive threat, two incredibly rebounders at the 4, finals MVPs at the three, two bruising PGs, two elite defenders at C. Everywhere you look it's tit for tat.

Offensively my team is going to look to exploit Deron and Pierce the most. Pierce plays good D in stretches and is a physical guy. Unfortunately, Barry has seen worse and still prevailed. In his finals year I'd like you to take a look at the team he played with. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/1975.html . Most of you have heard of Jamaal Wilkes...other than that, there's no one of any real merit on that team. Yet he carried the team to the finals and actually won with that cast and defenses able to focus on him and throw what they'd like. With 20ppg scorers all around him my opponent won't have that luxury.
The other focal point, Payton, has never met a guard he couldn't back down. Primarily because even with bigger guards they're simply NOT used to playing that style of defense. Deron is no exception as he's only got one real post-up guard in the league (Billups), and Chauncy's been getting away from it these past few years. Deron most certainly isn't a liability on D, but Payton inserted into the league today would become the best or send best scoring PG overnight (with respect to Harris whose offensive game I'm not a fan of). Moncrief will look the slash and go at Michael enough to keep him honest and he's got an extremely reliable mid-range game to keep Michael from helping off of him too much. Williams' offensive game isn't incredibly varied, but it's certainly efficient. Lucas is a very good rebounder, but don't let his raw numbers fool you. Look at his raw #s and his rebound rate in the years it was recorded. He's no better than Buck. When Alonzo looks to score he's going to be facing an incredibly strong gilmore. Snakebites is right. He might be the strongest ever, but keep in mind Alonzo did alright with the likes of Hakeem, DRob, Shaq, and Ewing around. He'll be able to get his without double teams as always. Make no mistake though, the team will revolve around Barry on offense who can CERTAINLY get his, and if you come at him with a more focused defense, everyone around him is sporting gaudy TS%s and FG%, and everyone around him is an above average rebounder.

Defensively is where this team shines. My rotations will be set to mirror snakebites in such a way that almost all thirty of Bobby Jones' minutes will be spent guarding Pierce. Williams will play the first 6 or so minutes of each game and after that, he's going to mirror Lucas for every minute he's on the floor. When Lucas comes off, Williams comes off. Only 10mpg will Jones actually be playing PF, 4 minutes on Lucas, 6 on Jones. Any other time Barry will be guarding the offensively challenged, sub par rebounding AK47. That means 20mpg you're going to see Bobby Jones hounding pierce, moncrief on Michael, Payton on Williams, and Zo in the middle. The team's first line of defense is going to be playing the passing lanes and terrorizing the ballhandlers and utilizing rotations to create turnovers and use Moncrief's athleticism in the open court to get some easy buckets. The team is filled with ballhawks and defenders capable of rotating to the open man to prevent easy jumpshots. If someone slips free, back to back DPOY Alonzo Mourning is waiting for them in the paint. Once Snakebites settles into his offensive sets it's going to be on the man guarding the guy with the ball to keep him in check.

Payton vs. Deron This version of Gary Payton is the same one who spent a lot of time on Michael in the 96 finals and held him to ~41% shooting. About 7% lower than the rest of the finals. Michael is the epitome of a slasher, which is Deron's favorite part of the game. Deron's best games come against small guards (see Paul, Chris), but Gary is actually BIGGER than Deron. Offensively Gary can get pretty much anything he wants against Deron, who is simply an average defender. He shouldn't have a problem winning this match-up every night.

Advantage Cellardoor

Moncrief vs. Jordan Michael is the GOAT. I'm a Bulls fan, I can't say any differently . I CAN however be glad that I have the best possible tools to limit him. Alonzo is as good at protecting the rim as anyone this side of Russell, Payton is an excellent help defender as well who can both MJ from time to time without giving up too much to Deron who is very much an up and down 3pt shooter (32.2, 39.5, 31% in selected years respectively). Offensively Moncrief has the slashing ability to take Michael out of his game from most of the players that guarded him. The only comparable slasher at SG in MJ's prime I can think of is Clyde Drexler. As mentioned, Moncrief's much improved jumpshot in the years selected makes him at least a respectable threat from mid-range making it difficult for MJ to cheat off him. Moncrief rebounded similar to Michael and was a good passer in his own right. He should do as good a job as any on him, but it's still Jordan.

Advantage Snakebites

Barry vs. Pierce both players are good scorers. Barry is better. Neither of particularly strong rebounders, Pierce is better. Barry is the stronger passer and despite Pierce doing alright in stretches against good players, neither is defensively anything to write home about. The difference is that Pierce's reputation as a defender only started building around KG and Perkins. I believe at worst this is a draw defensively, but Barry is miles ahead of Pierce as a scorer which is saying something because Pierce is a good scorer with a varied offensive game himself. Barry in his selected prime could get his shot off from anywhere and do so reliably with range out to 3pt and beyond. He was a clutch cold blooded killer than wasn't stopped by one man very often. As the primary scorer on our team he's going to see a lot of screens from Zo and Williams (and Laimbeer and Jones)leaving Pierce with the option of going under and leaving Barry open, fighting over and ended up on Barry's hip at a disadvantage, or switching Lucas/Gilmore onto him, which won't work. Defensively Barry will get into the passing lanes and limit pierce's jumpshooting abilities relying on the terrific defensive team around him to help if he needs it. Luckily Pierce just isn't that quick, so staying in front won't be totally impossible.

Advantage Cellardoor

Buck Williams v. Jerry Lucas This, to me, is an interesting match-up. Neither is really an offensive force, though both are capable. Both are fantastic rebounders though. I really think this match-up plays to a draw. (More to come on this match-up if Snakebites disagrees)

Push

Alonzo Mourning v. Artis Gilmore
I've been sitting here staring at Gilmore's numbers on BBR for the last ten minutes trying to figure out why Snakebites chose 76-79 with such amazing numbers before then. Then it hit me: no ABA years allowed. The contrast in the speed of the game is insane. Gilmore's rebounding numbers went down as did his points, but his efficiency and reb rate didn't dip much. Truly impressive. Two things are certain with these two. Alonzo is the better defender, and Gilmore is the better rebounder. (To be fair to Alonzo, Gilmore's advantage is on defensive boards, they're comparable offensive rebounders). Offensively neither guy is the focal point of the offense, but both have proven very difficult to stop for some of the best Cs ever. I see this one playing pretty much to a draw on the individual match-up while Gilmore does more damage on the boards and Zo wreaks more having on D.

Push

Bench (Cheeks/West/Jones/Laimbeer v. Bing/Lanier/AK47/Johnson)
I don't see much of an argument here. My bench is better overall and most notably at the F rotation where AK47 is coming in opposite Bobby Jones. Bobby Jones is AK47 on every steroid known to man and with bionic parts.

Advantage Cellardoor

Other notes:
This is a battle of great offense and good defense against insane defense and good offense. My team's best chance to get points is going to be with line-ups of Payton/Moncrienf/Barry/Jones/Laimbeer. With Gilmore pushed away from the basket guarding Laimbeer and everyone on the floor a reliable shooter at least to mid-range, the basket becomes opened up for my slashers and the rebounding advantage dissipates with Gilmore away from the basket. Having AK47 take most of the back-up 4 minutes is going to hurt due to Barry being able to switch off the actual offensive threat with one of my best defenders in Jones guarding his wings.

I'm incredibly tired and I actually have some work to do, so anything else I need to cover will be done in a rebuttal.

Cellardoor in 7 on the back of Barry, Payton, and an unreal defense.

Finger Roll wrote:As noted in the title, these are due Monday, August 24, 2009 at 11:00 P.M. Eastern time.

On a side note, I assume rebuttals usually occur in these sorts of things. For those of you with past experience, are the rebuttals an informal sort of thing that just naturally happens? Or is there typically a particular set of rules and specifications on amount of rebuttals, deadline, etc?

I try to limit things to 1 rebuttal or its a debate forum. IMHO rebuttals are more for clarification and incase there are lineup changes. I enjoy reading them very much but being honest and realistic gives you much more cred and more believable. Its best to concede a matchup and move on instead of trying to sugar coat it or make something up. Ill read your post 2 or 3 times but 50% of judges stop after about 100 words.

One thing Im seeing that I dont think should be allowed is GMs having players play more mins then they historicaly did. If your player never played 40mpg and you have him doing that on your team I expect your player to play like crap for that time and not be able to guard or shoot.

As Cellar said, this really is an interesting matchup. Much props to Cellardoor for his recent modship, and for building a strong team.

Cellar leads and finishes with his defense, and rightly so. Its what his team is built on, and its a bear. It is the major selling point for this team and as such I will have to address it in my writeup. Besides pointing out in general my disciplined and balanced offensive assault, there are a few particulars to point out as well.

1) Jordan: Jordan is a relentless offensive attacker who can hurt a defense in a variety of different ways. I don't feel I need to get into his overall abilities as an offensive threat with this crowd, as they are well noted. RE: this particular defense there are a few particulars I need to point out. My team has outstanding spacing with Pierce, Lucas and Williams all being very capable jumpshooters, the former two having 3 point range. With defenses spread thusly, Jordan will have plenty of room to operate and help will be difficult to come by. Payton is a great help defender, but the notion that he can leave Deron Williams, an efficient shooter, albeit with inconsistent 3 point range, while he is away from the basket, is false. This leaves Moncrief with the impossible task of taking the versatile Jordan man to man. The Squid is a great defender at his position, and he'll make him work, but ultimately at the end of the day Jordan is still going to get his points. Mourning will offer some help defense, but Jordan did just fine against him and other superior big men to him in that era.

2) Rebounding. Want to compromise a defense? Compromise their ability to grab defensive rebounds. Their most effective overall rebounder, Buck Williams, has the unfortunate duty of guarding Jerry Lucas, an effortless jumpshooter with a 30ft shooting range. In other words, due to his guarding assignment (Cellar himself says he'll be matching him minute to minute) will compromise his ability to get on the defensive glass. This leaves Mourning with the uphill battle of keeping Artis Gilmore, a terrific offensive and defensive rebounder, off the glass, by his lonesome on that end of the court. Even he admits that Mourning loses that rebounding battle. Gillmore will be able to grab enough offensive rebounds on that end (without Williams in the paint) to compromise this teams defensive efficiency considerably.

Now, to the individual matchups:

Point guard: Cellar does have a fair point here. Payton can back down just about any point guard, and this should give him the advantage here. I will add, however, that Payton is an extremely streaky shooter who I would argue is not versatile enough to hang as a second option in the ATL, particularly in the early years chosen for him, and that is what he's being called upon to be. Advantage to Cellar.

Shooting guard: I'll agree with Cellar on this one. The Squid is tough for Jordan, but Jordan has a 3 inch and 20 pound advantage here, and with that size he loses NO quickness. Add to that the aforementioned spacing designed to give Jordan maximum room to operate, and you have a tough sell even for the most tenacious assigned defender. Moncrief has a decent midrange jumper, but he certainly doesn't have outside range either, and Jordan should be able to handle him with his own brand of great defense. Definite advantage to Snakebites.

Small Forward: Barry is their go-to guy, but I have a perfectly legit defender and clutch scorer to counter him. Barry wins this matchup if you simply look at it head to head. In the game situation, however, he is not surrounded by serious perimeter threats. In certain situations, I could easily bring a help defender onto Barry and marginalize his ability to initiate offense from time to time, particularly in the clutch, when the other starters are less proven. Though perhaps Pierce's defensive rep is a result of KG, Gilmore is a great help defender as well. Additionally, should Cellar attempt to use Barry's total package on offense (not just shooting), spacing becomes an even more serious issue for this team. Bringing in Kirilenko with his armspan also creates issues during stretches. Again, advantage to Cellar, but is it enough?

Power Forward: Cellar kind of went through this one quickly, but I feel it deserves more attention. As a great rebounder, Buck Williams is in for a really frustrating night. Lucas plays best with an elite wing player/passer. Luckily, I happen to have one of those! Lucas can't be ignored in the long range, and Buck Williams will be trapped out there with him on every offensive possession to account for that persistent threat. As an offensive threat, he will fit with Jordan much like he fit with Oscar Robertson, who set him up with countless jump shot opportunities via pick and pop. As a supplement to the already versatile offense of team Snakebites, this is terrific. This, as mentioned before, leaves Mourning alone with the tall task of keeping Gilmore off the offensive glass. On the other end, Lucas's terrific defensive rebounding abilities and underated man to man defense will make things even harder on this already stretched offense. Advantage: Snakebites

Center: Mourning is the better man to man defender, but on the weak side I feel the two are quite comparable, with Gilmore perhaps having the slight edge. This help defense will hurt Cellar's offense, light on jumpshooting, more severely then Mourning will hurt us. As an overall rebounder, Gilmore is historically more skilled and is also 4 inches taller than his counterpart. Advantage: Snakebites.

Bench: He sold my bench short IMO. He compared Jones favorably to AK47 then just sort of let it hang. Ive got a pair of hall of famers at center and guard, both of whom fit very well, and I've also got Joe Johnson, a better 3 point shooter than anyone on his team. In particular, Lanier thrived in an NBA full of hall of fame big men, and Bing was a terrific all round player. Both greatly reduce the dropoff when going to my bench. Kirilenko, while not as great as Jones, is still a terrific complementary player on the bench. Advantage: Push

Rebounding: As I've mentioned before, his team will struggle on the defensive glass because of Lucas threat as a jumpshooter, and on the other end of the court, I will gladly match Lucas and Gilmore (with Lanier off the bench and a solid set of rebounders at the smaller positions) with Cellar's rebounders. Lucas and Gilmore will be able to hurt their front courts abilities to get on the offensive glass as well, reducing their offensive efficiency further. Laimbeer may compromise Gilmore in the few minutes he plays, but that still leaves Lucas to match Williams. Advantage: Snakebites

Overall, I feel that Cellar's team lives and dies by its defense, but this Snakebites team, with its relentless and balanced offensive attack (and GOAT offensive anchor), should still be creative, diverse, and ruthless enough to score points, particularly with the rebounding issues apparent with Cellar's team. On the other end of the ball, very strong defense and rebounding from team Snakebites will make it very difficult to jump out to leads for team Cellar in the best of conditions, let alone the worst. Barry is a great finisher, but the lack of spacing and shooting help around him will ultimately hurt him. The team's poor spacing will allow even more pressure to be placed on Barry, especially in the clutch, and will force his teammates to beat us, a tough proposition for a group that is without a proven go to playoff performer. Even if they manage to keep it close (which they will at times, they are a tough team to blow out), they are walking into a trap with Michael Jordan and his Finals MVP sidekick at the helm. I see my team being able to close out the games that are close.

Ultimately, the more balanced and versatile team with it own brand of rock solid defense should win out.

Advantage: Snakebites in 7

ATL Spartans
PG Isiah Thomas (32mpg), Lenny Wilkens (16mpg)
SG Ray Allen (28mpg), Sam Jones(24mpg)
SF Mullin(24mpg), English(12mpg)
PF KG (36mpg), Hawkins(8mpg), Cummings
C Moses (36mpg), Thurmond(24mpg), Ratlif

Fingerroll
PG: Walt Frazier (39) / K.C. Jones (8) / Joe Dumars (1) / Doug Christie (0) / Steve Kerr (0)
SG: Joe Dumars (38) / Doug Christie (9) / Shane Battier (1) / Steve Kerr (0)
SF: Bernard King (31) / Detlef Schrempf (15) / Shane Battier (2) / Doug Christie (0)
PF: Bob Pettit (40) / Gus Johnson (7) / Detlef Schrempf (1)
C: Bill Russell (42) / Arvydas Sabonis (5) / Bob Pettit (1) / Gus Johnson (0)

Spartans plan to attack Fingerolls squad in the following areas

1. Take adv of lack of size of Fingerolls team.
2. Take Adv of slow foot speed at forward
3. Take adv of tired starters playing exteneded mins.
4. take adv of grossly inferior bench.

The Spartans come into the matchup with maybe the kryptonite that can superman. Russell and Frazier normaly are a dynamic duo and ready to shut down def and control the tempo and boards but they face Isiah and Moses. Moses can rebound with Russell and neagte much of that adv and Frazier for all his great defense is still not shutting down Isiah.

The Spartans again on offense look to stretch the defense of Fingerolls team with great outside shooting and useing that space to get Frazier on an island with Isiah who can break down Frazier and force Russell to rotate. Moses is the GOAT off rebounder and a stellar def rebounder. Leaving him is almost a a guarrenteed putback. If Isiah is doubled shooters on the wings are ready to make the extra pass, drive the lane or release with deadly accuracy.
With Jones/English the Spartans are going to run them off of screens get them open jumpers. If the bigs switch its lob pass or backside layup.

Spartans on def look to double King and force a 3apg player to find open shooters. For Pettit We have KG who is an ideal defender. He can go 1on1 and force off balanced shots and keep him outside with his length, size and speed. Dumars is the lone outlet shooter and Frazier needs to be closer to the basket. Eitherway in a ATL game forcing up 18ft jumpshots or contested 3s is a big win for the defense.

I believe Moses will still be an effective off player vs Russell. His rebounding will be below avg but I still contend that he will either be able to make a differance or draw so much attention that KG or Thurmond will be able to make an impact.

Bench:

The Spartans bench contains a alltime 50 player and HoFer at every posistion. I realise I could have gotten a more def role players but I believe the sign of great bench is its ability to replace players and not drop off in EFF or still be able to exploit mismatches. Wilkens plays a very similar game to Isiah with his drive and dish game. Jones and English have the ability to light up any team and Thurmonds def is on par or superior to KG.

You ask yourself how many pts would Fingerrolls bench be outscored in the 10mpg its on the floor? Can you realy say that Fingerrolls starters can make up the differance? Adding to the extra pressure the Spartan bench can still play with Fingerrolls starters.

Lenny Wilkens finished 2nd in MVP voeting when Frazier was in the NBA. and won all his apg titles against Frazier.
Jones is a 6 time champ (4 times as the #1 option)
English even in Kings best season scored more pts than him in every season of his prime and those werent his best seasons.
Hawkins Is the legendary 20 and 10 player with great weakside help that played similar to KG and could do a reasonable job playing with the Great Pettit.
Thurmond was considered just a notch below Russell playing defense and his rebounding was stellar being one of just a handfull to get 20rpg in a season.

The Spartans bench could most likley win 2 games vs Fingerrolls starters and devastate the weak bench of the Fingerrolls team. The Spartans starters are always more rested and never have to worry about there bench putting them in a hole while FIngerrolls starters know they need to outplay the Sparatn starters just to keep the game close and give them a chance in the 4th qter. However in that 4th quarter my shooters have fresher legs and rebounders have more energy. As the series goes on Fingerrolls team wears down they become less and less effective and any injury, foul trouble becomes exaserbated as the bench cannot produce on the level of its starters.

Rebuttal
First of all, I believe Snakebites said this is his first time in an ATL somewhere. You've done a fantastic job either way, but if its your first time that's all the more impressive. Good job. I'm going to address a few things directly and be on my way.

Snakebites wrote: Payton is a great help defender, but the notion that he can leave Deron Williams, an efficient shooter, albeit with inconsistent 3 point range, while he is away from the basket, is false.

I don't know how often you get to see Jazz games, but Deron's not THAT efficient a shooter. His high percentages come from his ability to get to the rack using his nasty crossover. Deron's one of my favorite players, but if you make him a spot-up shooter at the 3pt line he's going to be a MUCH better option than leaving Jordan single covered. If Deron's spot on the floor is 2-3 feet inside the line I guarantee you my quickness at all my positions (especially the Jones/Barry line-up) will allow me to rotate the weakside defenders around and cover him. To an extent this is also true of Pierce and Lucas, though I don't intend to use them much in the way of help defense until the small line-up is inserted.

There will be occasions when someone gets off an open three, but this team knows it's assignments and will chase the shooters off their spots in their rotations more often than not. The jumpshot will not be conceded, so you'll be driving into the teeth of my defense at every turn. And they're very sharp teeth.

2) Rebounding. Want to compromise a defense? Compromise their ability to grab defensive rebounds. Their most effective overall rebounder, Buck Williams, has the unfortunate duty of guarding Jerry Lucas, an effortless jumpshooter with a 30ft shooting range. In other words, due to his guarding assignment (Cellar himself says he'll be matching him minute to minute) will compromise his ability to get on the defensive glass. This leaves Mourning with the uphill battle of keeping Artis Gilmore, a terrific offensive and defensive rebounder, off the glass, by his lonesome on that end of the court. Even he admits that Mourning loses that rebounding battle. Gillmore will be able to grab enough offensive rebounds on that end (without Williams in the paint) to compromise this teams defensive efficiency considerably.

First of all, if you think I won't happily give anyone, including Lucas, thirty foot jumpers every time down the floor you're insane

That aside, I absolutely concede an overall rebounding advantage. Again though, it's going to be muttled by your team being forced to come to the basket. When that happens it becomes anyone's game as we end up with six guys (the Cs, the shooter and his man, and probably one other set crashing the boards). And the same advantage Lucas gives you, Laimbeer gives me against Gilmore pulling him away from the basket leaving Lucas and Williams by their lonesome down low. I will lose the rebounding battle overall, but it won't be a back breaker.

Point guard: Cellar does have a fair point here. Payton can back down just about any point guard, and this should give him the advantage here. I will add, however, that Payton is an extremely streaky shooter who I would argue is not versatile enough to hang as a second option in the ATL, particularly in the early years chosen for him, and that is what he's being called upon to be. Advantage to Cellar.

Payton was the first option on a team that took out the two time defending champion Rockets, the Malone/Stockton Jazz who were the Bulls next to finals opponents, and took the 72 win Bulls to 6 games with Jordan guarding him much of that time. He upped his averages in the playoffs including shooting 41% from 3. Bear in mind that my team is built off chemistry and no one NEEDING the ball beyond Barry. Squid can score 20 a game, Williams can score 15, and Alonzo can score 20. My team is predicated on keeping players in as normal roles as is humanly possible in an ATL. With them in their comfort zone they should excel.

Shooting guard: Moncrief has a decent midrange jumper, but he certainly doesn't have outside range either, and Jordan should be able to handle him with his own brand of great defense. Definite advantage to Snakebites.

Quick note on the Squid: he developed more than a decent mid-range jumper. He's the equivalent of your Deron Williams on offense, but with even less of a 3pt shot, which I think we can both agree, neither should be taking. Additionally, if there's one guy who's going to tire Jordan out, which i'm not entirely sure is possible, on defense, it's Squid. He's absolutely relentless (and Michael has said as much) and will never stop moving. Think Ironman Triathlete version of Rip Hamilton. That's the advantage to knowing your career will be shortened by injury I guess

Small Forward: Barry is their go-to guy, but I have a perfectly legit defender and clutch scorer to counter him. Barry wins this matchup if you simply look at it head to head. In the game situation, however, he is not surrounded by serious perimeter threats. In certain situations, I could easily bring a help defender onto Barry and marginalize his ability to initiate offense from time to time, particularly in the clutch, when the other starters are less proven. Though perhaps Pierce's defensive rep is a result of KG, Gilmore is a great help defender as well. Additionally, should Cellar attempt to use Barry's total package on offense (not just shooting), spacing becomes an even more serious issue for this team. Bringing in Kirilenko with his armspan also creates issues during stretches. Again, advantage to Cellar, but is it enough?

In the same vein, I've got shooters you can't leave open. You may get lucky and have Payton clank some off, Squid is a superb mid-range shooter and slasher. If you give him space and Barry gets him the ball he's going to create problems going to the basket. When Laimbeer is in not only will the paint be left unprotected, but he can knock down the jumper too. KG and Gilmore are both great help defenders, but they're different types, Garnett is all over the floor helping in ways someone with Gilmores agility and speed could only dream of doing. Pierce is a nice defender, but let's be honest here. John Salmons was getting anywhere on the court he wanted WITH a groin injury in last year's playoffs

Power Forward: Cellar kind of went through this one quickly, but I feel it deserves more attention. As a great rebounder, Buck Williams is in for a really frustrating night. Lucas plays best with an elite wing player/passer. Luckily, I happen to have one of those! Lucas can't be ignored in the long range, and Buck Williams will be trapped out there with him on every offensive possession to account for that persistent threat.

(Side note: It'd be interesting to see Jordan run the pick and pop...he did it a bit with Grant/Cartwright, but never a whole lot)
We covered the rebounding aspect, but with Lucas on an ATL with Jordan, a much better scorer than Oscar, his offensive opportunities are going to be limited. He's a worse defending better shooting version of Buck Williams when all is said and done with the usage each is going to get. Additionally, Buck was an amazing rebounder overall, but his best numbers always came on the offensive end where Lucas can't draw him any further from the basket than he'd like to be.

Center: Mourning is the better man to man defender, but on the weak side I feel the two are quite comparable, with Gilmore perhaps having the slight edge. This help defense will hurt Cellar's offense, light on jumpshooting, more severely then Mourning will hurt us. As an overall rebounder, Gilmore is historically more skilled and is also 4 inches taller than his counterpart. Advantage: Snakebites.

First of all, even as a help defender Gilmore absolutely has no edge on Zo. His only clear advantages are size and rebounding. With size, Zo managed as well as anybody with the Cs with size of his time (Shaq, DRob, Ewing, Dream...three of which are better than Gilmore) and we've beaten rebounding to death at this point.
This is likely a push, though I'd argue that Zo will limit Gilmore enough on offense to push this in my favor.

Bench:

I left the rest of the bench alone because I felt they were pushes at best. Laimbeer did pretty well with some pretty nice Cs around him himself and was the better rebounder and a tenacious defender. Lanier, while being a better scorer and a slightly better defender is breaking even with Laimbeer. Johnson and Bing to Cheeks and Sloan is even. AK47 is playing 18 minutes a game and he's perhaps your worst rotation player. That's why I brought him up most prominently.



The scary thing about my team is that they may be greater than the sum of their parts rather than trying to fit together like most ATL teams. On defense all of them know their assignments and are disciplined enough to make the rotations to the open man and tremendously limit Snakebite's team on offense. On our own side of the ball, Barry can get anywhere he'd like on Pierce. To think any differently of Barry during the chosen years is an error. He cut through teams with absolutely no one of merit around him and beat some great teams. Payton on Williams is again a mismatch. Moncrief will get some of his own and tire Jordan out and Zo has proven to be able to score on bigger guys time and again.
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Points of clarification: I'm not suggesting Laimbeer is "better" than Lanier, just that he's going to be as effective in this contest. And my point on Deron is that his somewhat limited range means a good defensive team can play to rotations and CAN effectively double off him and still recover to contest the shot.

Poopdamoop vs TMACFORMVP

Firstly, congrats to TMAC for building what I think is the best team in this competition, aside from mine. There’s a lot of star power there, but he does have some weaknesses that I feel my team is able to exploit.

PG: Terry Porter is a nice player, and a good fit next to Wade and Bird, but he’s arguably the worst starting PG in this league, and he’s going up against one of the best. Oscar Robertson isn’t quite as prolific a shooter, but he’s far ahead in every other aspect of the game, including defense (Oscar was extremely underrated here and could stay in front of smaller PGs as well as hold his own against bigger swingmen). I’ll put Oscar on Porter because he’s their weakest backcourt player and Oscar’s my weakest backcourt defender, but Robertson will destroy Porter off the dribble and especially on the block. If TMAC chooses to have Bird or Wade guard the Big O, i’ll address the ramifications in my rebuttal.

Large edge to poop

SG: This should be an interesting matchup. Wade is, IMO, a poor man’s Jerry West. Both guys are excellent slashers, with Wade being slightly more athletic and West being the better shooter and defender. Both are roughly the same size, about 6’4 in shoes, and both guys are also clutch and great team leaders. West’s advantages, however, are key to exploiting matchup issues with TMAC’s team. Having a guy as quick and athletic as Jerry West on Wade negates a lot of Wade’s slashing abilities, and while Wade will do similar things on defense, West has the ability to stretch the defense and make teams pay from beyond the arc. West is also one of the best perimeter defenders ever (as soon as the All-Defensive teams were created, he made them every year) both man to man and help-wise, while Wade hasn’t really evolved into the dominant help defender he was this season in TMAC’s chosen years. West can also leave Wade to help out on Bird or Robinson and test D-Wade’s shaky jumper (this isn’t the Dwyane Wade of the 08-09 season, his jumper is still relatively poor, especially from long range), and West is one of few players capable of matching Larry Legend in clutch feats.

Slight edge to poop

SF: No arguments here, Bird has an overwhelming advantage against Coop. I can at least take some comfort in knowing that Bird himself called Michael Cooper the hardest defender he’s ever gone against. Also, Cooper is a good enough shooter from distance that Bird won’t be able to leave him alone too often. If Cooper can force Bird into some subpar shooting nights and hit open threes when given the chance, I’ll have enough production from my other players to push me over the top.

Large edge to TMAC

PF: Another interesting matchup between two great power forwards of the 70’s. Both guys are extremely talented long range shooters, McAdoo more so than Hayes, and both guys are underrated defenders and shotblockers, Hayes more so than McAdoo. Bob was more versatile though, as Hayes scored primarily off his turnaround shot and offensive rebounds, while McAdoo was just as deadly in the post as he was from outside the key. If I can draw Hayes out of the paint, it will give my guards a lot more room to operate, and we can take advantage of our superior backcourt. McAdoo was also a more efficient scorer and a slightly better rebounder in their respective seasons. Overall this is a very close matchup, but I’m gonna give myself the edge (obviously) due to my superior scoring and rebounding.

Slight edge to poop

C: This will be the pivotal matchup of the series. I consider Bill Walton and David Robinson similar calibre players in their primes, with Robinson being the superior scorer (by virtue of his foul-drawing abilities) and Walton a slightly better rebounder and playmaker. Both men are excellent defenders as well, with Robinson being better help wise and Walton being superior man-to-man. The main difference is Robinson will likely be playing about 10 more minutes than Walton, which I admit is significant. However, even having Walton for only 28-30 minutes a game is better than having many centers for 40. He outplayed Kareem on his way to the finals in the 77 season, then won an MVP over him the next year, leading his team to a 50-10 record before he got injured. They went 10-18 after that. Walton has enough range to pull Robinson out of the key, and if both Hayes and Robinson are guarding my bigs outside the paint, TMAC’s shotblocking presence becomes next to nothing. I think you have to give TMAC the edge here just because of Robinson’s durability, but the prime Walton he is facing is every bit as dominant offensively and defensively.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=937367

Take what you want from this, but it supports my arguments that Walton, at his peak, is just as good as and possibly better than Robinson.

Slight edge to TMAC

Bench: Assuming TMAC runs an 8 man rotation, its Johnson/Jones/Sikma against Hardaway/Eaton/O’Neal/Brand/Marion. I’d take Hardaway’s versatility and offensive prowess over Johnson’s defense. Prime Penny was arguably the best guard in the league (until MJ returned). Marion vs Jones is pretty similar, both guys are gonna come in and play solid defense, Jones can also spread the floor while Marion is better in transition. I’ll call it a wash. For bigs, Sikma is extremely solid, one of my favourite players, but Eaton is one of the best defenders ever, and having a DPOY coming off the bench is a luxury few teams can afford. JO and Brand are also solid defenders and shooters, and both of them can provide about 10 minutes of excellent all-around play.

Slight advantage to poop

Offensively, we’ll look to exploit TMAC’s (relatively) small backcourt. Oscar will have a field day posting up either Porter or Wade, and he can kick out to West, Cooper, or McAdoo when help arrives. West will be able to take anyone off the dribble, and with my bigs spreading the floor the lane will be open for penetration or low block postups from Oscar. Walton will get lots of touches in both the low and high post, and he should be able to find open cutters, as all my guys, especially West, are still dangerous without the ball in their hands. McAdoo will get his share of post opportunities and kickouts, but he will be used mainly as a jumpshooter to pull away TMAC’s shotblocking threats. Off the bench, Penny will look to play alongside either West or Robertson, adding another ballhandler and slashing threat, while Eaton will come in to anchor the defense when Walton sits. Marion will see a bit of time guarding Bird, as will Robertson. JO and Brand will be asked to play solid defense on Robinson, Hayes, and Sikma, while hitting open jumpers created for them by our guards. Defensively, I’ll be relying on Cooper to make Bird work for his points for about 25 minutes, then throw Marion at him for a different look (more athletic, longer wingspan) for about 10 minutes, and have Oscar guard him for the remaining time he’s on the floor. West will be on Wade all game, and I’ll use him as a help defender and test Wade’s shaky jumpshot to help out on Bird or Robinson if they’re doing too much damage. I’ll rely on Walton to handle D-Rob one on one when he’s in the game, then put JO on him and use Eaton as a help defender primarily. I’ll always have at least two great shotblockers on the floor at all times, so I’ll be able to challenge Wade and Bird when they make it all the way to the rim. (More to come in rebuttals)

Overall, I think TMAC has more star power, as everyone knows Larry Bird, David Robinson, and Dwyane Wade, as well as what they’re capable of, but I think my team has a lot of guys that peaked early and then burnt out. However, thats all you need in a league like this, as McAdoo, Walton, and Penny would have been all-time greats if they had maintained their peak play. As it stands, I have two MVPs and a DPOY in my frontcourt, and an MVP and a consistant 1st team All-NBA player in the backcourt, as well as another DPOY and 1st team All-NBA calibre player as my 6th and 7th men. I know my team is the underdog in this series, but just taking the three best years of every player on our teams, I think West, Oscar, Walton, McAdoo, and Penny can stand up to just about any team in the league. I’d like to impose once more on the judges that this is only about peak play, and I’ve made sure to take guys that may not be as decorated career-wise as a lot of players, but at their best they were all among the top 5 players in the game at one point.

Couple of things:

1) You concede that Lanier is a better scorer AND defender than Laimbeer, and he's at least the rebounder Lamb is, yet that's a push? I minor point regardless, as they're playing 15 or fewer minutes a pop, but I don't think my hall of fame center who thrived in an era where half the league had a HOF center should be sold short thusly. He was a well rounded offensive player and a very strong defender, and in the years I chose for him he was as good a rebounder as any. He's one of the top backup centers in this league. Laimbeer was a good player, but its not a contest IMO.

Additionally, Lanier wasn't a bad shooter himself, he could hit jumpers. It just wasn't the primary aspect of his game as it was with Laimbeer. We'll have to agree to disagree on the bench, I guess. I'll gladly match mine up against yours and expect it to hold its own.

2) I'm not arguing that Deron is a deadly shooter who will be used to that capacity. Just arguing that he's not incompetent enough to allow Jordan to face frequent double teams. He's certainly not a worse shooter than Gary Payton.

3) RE: 30 foot jumpers. Duly noted . Just establishing that Lucas is a threat away from the basket and the issues that presents for your defense/rebounding plan, not that I expect him out there shooting from that far away all the time. Wasn't about to let that "not an offensive threat" argument go unaddressed. That's bulletin board material right there.

Regardless, much respect to your team, Cellar. I'm prepared to let the judges (wherever they may be) decide this one. I think we've both said our peace.

HOUSTON ROCKETS V. POOPDAMOOP

I. The Matchup

- poopdamoop's rotation
[PG] - Robertson (38)/West(10)/Richardson(spot)
[SG] - West(28)/Penny(20)/Roy(spot)
[SF] - Cooper(28)/Penny(10)/Marion(10)
[PF] - McAdoo(34)/Brand(10)/O’Neal(4)
[Cc] - Walton(28)/Eaton(15)/O’Neal(5)

- My Rotation
[PG] - Porter (30) - Johnson (18) - Harper
[SG] - Wade (36) - Johnson (12) - Harper
[SF] - Bird (38) - Jones (10) - Granger
[PF] - Hayes (36) - Sikma (10) - Bird (2) - Roundfield
[Cc] - Robinson (38) - Sikma (10) - Hayes

II. Opening Statement

I'd like to wish poopdamoop the best of luck in this series, you've built a truly fantastic team with a devastating back-court, and solid all rounded play. I knew from the beginning your team would be a handful and throughout the draft, you showed your knowledge in the NBA history, making you a very formidable opponent. Should be a good series, and truly may the best team win, which I fully intend to do so.

III. poopdamoop's Strengths

--> Strength #1 - Backcourt
poopdamoop's largest edge over most teams is his backcourt, he possess two of the greatest PG's and SG's to have ever played the game, and with Oscar's post up game, and West's perimeter game, both of them compliment each others strengths and weaknesses

Defensively we will cross match, so we can take away some of the things their guards like to do. Wade will be put on Oscar, for the reason he gives us a bigger and stronger guard opposed to Porter that can limit Oscar's post ups while being able to stay with him on the perimeter with his superior quickness and athleticism. On West will be Porter, as they're both closer in frame and size, which suits Porter's defensive ability better as West was particularly more a perimeter player. We're also not afraid to bench Porter in the favor of Harper who's a more known defender, bringing a similar extent shooting ability.

We'd also like to point out we have Dennis Johnson coming off the bench, one of the greatest combo guard defenders to have ever played the game. He had the quickness to stay with the fastest of players, and the bulk and size to take the beating from the bigger guards. When discussing the greatest defensive G's to have ever played the game, Johnson must and will be in the conversation with his nine all defensive team selections. He's the same man Larry Bird called the greatest teammate he's ever played against, and the same person Magic Johnson called one of the best defenders he's ever faced.

With a combo of the three, we feel we can take them slightly out of their elements thus making them less efficient. We certainly won't shut them down, but the goal is to roughly keep them at their averages, and not completely dominate the game. With our three guard rotation, two of them being All-Defensive guards, and Porter who was also a good defender, would do an adequate job.

--> Strength #2 - Rebounding
With Walton, McAdoo and Oscar in the starting lineup, the poopdamoop's squad is guaranteed to be a force on the boards. Off the bench they also pose Brand, Eaton and Marion, all of whom were good rebounders in the prime of their career.

There's no accurate measurement to determine rebounding during different eras due to several different factors, whether it'd be pace or talent level, but the most accurate statistic at this point would have to be rebound rate, a stat generally created to take into account the pace. Unfortunately the stats aren't recorded until later in both West and Oscar's career, which would be unfair to use for poopdamoop.



His backcourt certainly has the edge, but by how much is the question. I remember seeing a post by TrueLAFan who pace adjusted the stats for both Robertson and West, but can't seem to find the thread. But IIRC, the West adjustment was in a thread versus he and Wade, where he concluded West in today's game would be roughly at five boards per game, much like Wade, if not Wade having the slight advantage.

Then Oscar, he obviously came to the conclusion he wouldn't be a double digit rebounder, but would still be one of the best rebounding guards at the league, similar to Jason Kidd at 6.6 rebounds per game. I'll understand if people wouldn't count the information, but hopefully I can find the thread to backup the claims being made.

I'd also like to point out my frontcourt mates, specifically my starting PF and C have proven both can be elite and effective rebounders next to OTHER dominant rebounders, Hayes with Unseld, and Robinson with Duncan later in his career. For that fact alone, I'd think one of poop's strengths would actually become a weakness in this series.

IV. poopdamoop's Weaknesses

--> Weakness #1 - Frontcourt
Unfortunately Walton is tremendously injury prone, missing numerous games in the three year stretch, which only allows poop to play Walton 28 minutes per game. Off the bench is what hurts this team the most, with Eaton not being a reliable backup in an ATL setting, and others like Jermaine or Brand being reliable big minute players either

On the other end of the spectrum, our big man are one of the strengths on our team. McAdoo with a team of West, Oscar, and even Walton who all initiated the offense is relegated as a spot up shooter and frankly makes him a lesser efficient offensive player. I'd like to stress the bench once again, in an ATL once I had Mark Eaton as my backup, playing roughly 10 minutes per game, but literally got KILLED because of his lack of efficiency and all rounded game. With him playing even more minutes, and Jermaine/Brand not being at the level of Sikma my primary big off the bench, it's more so the backups that are the weakness than the actual starters.

We plan to stay conventional with Hayes on McAdoo, and Robinson on Walton. What we like about our big man are that both are two way players, with McAdoo's role being greatly decreased and he not being the greatest defensive player, Hayes will have the oppurtunity to score in the paint from the outside or in the post, while keeping on bay on McAdoo's jumpshot.

Walton has a case with Robinson, but not a good one. I'll have to reiterate Walton's missed games (31), (17), and (24) respectively in each season, while Robinson's role is to more anchor our teams defense, stretch Walton out on the perimeter with his mid-ranger, and get Walton in foul trouble with his ability to get to the line. With more well defined roles in the frontcourt, and the primary big man edge, the Rockets fully intend to take advantage of the frontcourt.

--> Weakness #2 - The SF position
Micael Cooper is one of my favorite players to have played, a very good defender, and underrated passer. but he wasn't a starter on the Lakers, nor is he a starter in an ATL. But that's moot as Cooper is only playing 28 minutes per game, but his backups are an out of position Penny Hardaway, and Shawn Marion.

The normal instinct would be "Perfect, I'd have an all time great defender to cover Larry Bird." Unfortunately both played in the same era, and faced each other enough times to come to a conclusion that Cooper didn't do much to affect Bird's game.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/ ... 2=birdla01
This includes a completely past prime Bird (post 86, into the 90's), but his career averages are:
24.5 points per game, 8.8 rebounds per game, 5.7 assists per game on .496/.667/.818

Then imagine a prime Larry Bird? Oh wait, 1984 Finals, Boston Celtics v. Los Angeles Lakers
27.4 points per game, 14.0 rebounds per game on .484/.667/.858

Larry Bird should have his way, and as he's averaging 40 minutes per game, the rest of the minutes will be played against an out of position Hardaway who was mediocre defensively to begin with, and a tad overrated Shawn Marion.

And when playing Cooper, while he's a solid shooter from the perimeter, he's not an offensive threat we have to worry about. Bird IMO gets hated far too much for his defense, he was elite on the weakside, and a terrific team defender. He didn't have the greatest lateral quickness, but watching a game recently, I felt alot of that was predicated on the torrid pace the Celtics played at. After all Bird was recognized for his team defense with his All-Defensive team selections.

We won't help too much, but considering Bird's team defense, it allows him to roam slightly more making it tougher on Oscar/West from the perimeter.

V. Intangibles

- I hope people don't underestimate Porter, his role is perfect on this team, play solid defense, give the ball up to Bird/Wade, and KNOCK down the open three point shot. He's proven next to a dominant wing and is a monster playoff performer

88-89: 22.0 points, 5.3 rebounds, 8.3 assists on .500/.364/.833
89-90: 20.6 points, 3.0 rebounds, 7.4 assists on .464/.395/.842
90-91: 18.1 points, 2.8 rebounds, 6.6 assists on .500/.362/.861

This is on a team that made the finals in 89-90, he was essentially a Billups clone, but in the 90's.

- Larry Bird is the best player in the series, I've often been quoted to say, if a matchup is close, the deciding factor fairly or unfairly should go to the team with the best player. Bird is a top 5 player to have played the game, and while West and Oscar are both fantastic players in their own right, both are widely listed on the outside of the Top 10.

- Wade isn't a different player in his championship year compared to what he put up yesterday. Is it because the extra three points per game? Wade has always been an exceptional mid-range shooter, with an absolutely deadly pull up jumpshot. Everyone saw that playoff run, and it looked like Wade never missed a shot.

- Bench edge, in an ATL, it's never a good thing to have players that are a liability on one end of the floor, more specifically on the offensive end of the floor. The players are too talented, and too well all rounded that most scorers also have a good all round game as well. In this case, while Eaton and Cooper have solid roles on the team, both are poor scorers that allow us to help and cheat off our man more so than usual.

VI. Conclusion

poop has built an awesome team with a great backcourt, but having the best player in the series, and a game-plan to minimize poop's strengths, and exploit his weaknesses, we feel we the Rockets should prevail. I wanted to add more, but I'll address more in a rebuttal if there is one.

Firstly, I realize I forgot to show my rotation for this matchup:

Oscar(38)/West(10)
West(28)/Penny(20)
Cooper(28)/Marion(12)/Penny(8)
McAdoo(34)/Brand(12)/JO(2)
Walton(30)/Eaton(12)/JO(6)

Apologies if this is considered too different from my earlier posted rotation, I'll change it back if need be

TMACFORMVP wrote:
I'd like to wish poopdamoop the best of luck in this series, you've built a truly fantastic team with a devastating back-court, and solid all rounded play. I knew from the beginning your team would be a handful and throughout the draft, you showed your knowledge in the NBA history, making you a very formidable opponent. Should be a good series, and truly may the best team win, which I fully intend to do so.

Well damn, there goes my plan of having the worst team win

Defensively we will cross match, so we can take away some of the things their guards like to do. Wade will be put on Oscar, for the reason he gives us a bigger and stronger guard opposed to Porter that can limit Oscar's post ups while being able to stay with him on the perimeter with his superior quickness and athleticism. On West will be Porter, as they're both closer in frame and size, which suits Porter's defensive ability better as West was particularly more a perimeter player. We're also not afraid to bench Porter in the favor of Harper who's a more known defender, bringing a similar extent shooting ability.

We'd also like to point out we have Dennis Johnson coming off the bench, one of the greatest combo guard defenders to have ever played the game. He had the quickness to stay with the fastest of players, and the bulk and size to take the beating from the bigger guards. When discussing the greatest defensive G's to have ever played the game, Johnson must and will be in the conversation with his nine all defensive team selections. He's the same man Larry Bird called the greatest teammate he's ever played against, and the same person Magic Johnson called one of the best defenders he's ever faced.

People tend to underrate Oscar's size. In shoes he's a good 6'7, weighing about 220 pounds. He's essentially the size of a typical small forward. Even with Wade on him instead of Porter, Oscar still has a decent size advantage and will be able to get whatever he wants in the post, as Wade is still primarily a help defender and not yet elite man-to-man. West will still be able to have his way with Porter as well, since West has the height to pull up and shoot over Porter and the speed to blow past him. As for Dennis Johnson, I do agree that he's an elite defender, and should have touched on him more in my writeup. He would be more suited than Wade or Porter to guard my backcourt, but he'll also have to deal with Penny coming off the bench. I'm always going to have two elite guards on the court at the same time, possibly three, and TMAC only had one elite defender to throw at them. If I win this matchup, it'll be because of my backcourt's large advantage. I feel like Wade was overrated as a defender back then, and got his All-D selection based on his steals and blocks stats, which were partly due to him being more of a gambler than a straight up stopper. He's also missed a decent amount of games during the years TMAC chose, so injury problems could be a factor for him as well (though not as much as for Walton)

There's no accurate measurement to determine rebounding during different eras due to several different factors, whether it'd be pace or talent level, but the most accurate statistic at this point would have to be rebound rate, a stat generally created to take into account the pace. Unfortunately the stats aren't recorded until later in both West and Oscar's career, which would be unfair to use for poopdamoop.

Code: Select all

Walton - 21.2, McAdoo - 17.4, Cooper - 6.6 = 45.2
Robinson - 17.7, Hayes - 16.4, Bird - 15.7  = 49.8

O'neal - 16.5, Brand - 19.6, Eaton - 17.0 (outlier season) = 17.7
Sikma - 18.5 = 18.5

Total Front Court Rotation: 68.3 > 62.9

His backcourt certainly has the edge, but by how much is the question. I remember seeing a post by TrueLAFan who pace adjusted the stats for both Robertson and West, but can't seem to find the thread. But IIRC, the West adjustment was in a thread versus he and Wade, where he concluded West in today's game would be roughly at five boards per game, much like Wade, if not Wade having the slight advantage.

Then Oscar, he obviously came to the conclusion he wouldn't be a double digit rebounder, but would still be one of the best rebounding guards at the league, similar to Jason Kidd at 6.6 rebounds per game. I'll understand if people wouldn't count the information, but hopefully I can find the thread to backup the claims being made.

I'd also like to point out my frontcourt mates, specifically my starting PF and C have proven both can be elite and effective rebounders next to OTHER dominant rebounders, Hayes with Unseld, and Robinson with Duncan later in his career. For that fact alone, I'd think one of poop's strengths would actually become a weakness in this series.

I should have touched on this more in my writeup as well, but rebounding will indeed be a positive for me. Cooper hurts (mostly because he played a lot more guard with the Lakers), but having Marion at about 16% off the bench will make up for it. Comparing West and Wade, Wade's rebound rate is about 8%, while West's was around 5% later in his career, when he was pulling down 4 rpg as opposed to 6-7 in his prime. I'd say those two are just about even. Oscar on Porter is definitely a large advantage to me, as by my extremely rough calculations, I'd estimate Oscar's to be about 11.5% compared to Porter's 6%. Dennis Johnson and Penny Hardaway have similar rebound rates, while Marion kills Eddie Jones and Sikma has a slight edge over my big men. Looking at it based on minutes played, since my worst rebounders won't actually see that much court time, we'd get something a lot different. I think the rebounding will be close overall, as both of us have excellent rebounding teams, but I think the strength of my backcourt and bench rebounding will win it for us overall.

--> Weakness #1 - Frontcourt
Unfortunately Walton is tremendously injury prone, missing numerous games in the three year stretch, which only allows poop to play Walton 28 minutes per game. Off the bench is what hurts this team the most, with Eaton not being a reliable backup in an ATL setting, and others like Jermaine or Brand being reliable big minute players either

On the other end of the spectrum, our big man are one of the strengths on our team. McAdoo with a team of West, Oscar, and even Walton who all initiated the offense is relegated as a spot up shooter and frankly makes him a lesser efficient offensive player. I'd like to stress the bench once again, in an ATL once I had Mark Eaton as my backup, playing roughly 10 minutes per game, but literally got KILLED because of his lack of efficiency and all rounded game. With him playing even more minutes, and Jermaine/Brand not being at the level of Sikma my primary big off the bench, it's more so the backups that are the weakness than the actual starters.

We plan to stay conventional with Hayes on McAdoo, and Robinson on Walton. What we like about our big man are that both are two way players, with McAdoo's role being greatly decreased and he not being the greatest defensive player, Hayes will have the oppurtunity to score in the paint from the outside or in the post, while keeping on bay on McAdoo's jumpshot.

Walton has a case with Robinson, but not a good one. I'll have to reiterate Walton's missed games (31), (17), and (24) respectively in each season, while Robinson's role is to more anchor our teams defense, stretch Walton out on the perimeter with his mid-ranger, and get Walton in foul trouble with his ability to get to the line. With more well defined roles in the frontcourt, and the primary big man edge, the Rockets fully intend to take advantage of the frontcourt.

I am playing Walton 30 minutes in this series, not a big step up from 28, as I feel the two extra minutes really don't mean that much. Robinson is playing 38, so he's on the court for 8 more minutes than Walton, or 1/5th of the game more. I highly doubt that my team's success will be compromised by the 8 minutes Robinson gets to play against a DPOY center as opposed to Bill Walton. I do admit that TMAC's front court is better than mine, and is likely the best in the league, but I have a good defender on Bird in Cooper and one of the best defenders of all time in Bill Walton on Robinson. I don't think Hayes will be that big an issue, as like McAdoo, Hayes has Wade, Bird, Robinson, and even Porter who all need their shots too. And from what I've seen and read about Hayes, he was fairly limited offensively, relying on his turnaround and offensive rebounding to get his points, and he did cause some problems in the locker room, which could arise again if he's not happy with the limited role he'll have on this team. Spot up shots are much easier to hit than the running jumpers, fadewaways, and contested shots that McAdoo normally took and made, so having him spread the floor and take open jumpers will likely increase his efficiency, not hurt it.

I also disagree that JO and Brand aren't on the same level as Sikma. Jack never even made an All-NBA team, while JO is a three-time member and Brand made the 2nd team in the years I'm using. I'd argue that O'Neal and Brand are both as good as Sikma, as they are better shotblockers and scorers. Foul trouble is not an issue for me with Walton, I'm only playing him 30 minutes anyway so if he picks up a couple early ones I'll be ok with it. Walton is one of the few big men in history who's just as quick and agile as D-Rob, so most of Robinson's strengths (speed, quickness, range) will not be as effective. Overall, I'd say TMAC has an edge in the frontcourt, but not as big as you'd think, as my starting bigs are very comparable to his, and JO and Brand are very comparable to Sikma as well.

--> Weakness #2 - The SF position
Micael Cooper is one of my favorite players to have played, a very good defender, and underrated passer. but he wasn't a starter on the Lakers, nor is he a starter in an ATL. But that's moot as Cooper is only playing 28 minutes per game, but his backups are an out of position Penny Hardaway, and Shawn Marion.

The normal instinct would be "Perfect, I'd have an all time great defender to cover Larry Bird." Unfortunately both played in the same era, and faced each other enough times to come to a conclusion that Cooper didn't do much to affect Bird's game.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/ ... 2=birdla01
This includes a completely past prime Bird (post 86, into the 90's), but his career averages are:
24.5 points per game, 8.8 rebounds per game, 5.7 assists per game on .496/.667/.818

Then imagine a prime Larry Bird? Oh wait, 1984 Finals, Boston Celtics v. Los Angeles Lakers
27.4 points per game, 14.0 rebounds per game, 3.6 assists on .484/.667/.858

Larry Bird should have his way, and as he's averaging 40 minutes per game, the rest of the minutes will be played against an out of position Hardaway who was mediocre defensively to begin with, and a tad overrated Shawn Marion.

And when playing Cooper, while he's a solid shooter from the perimeter, he's not an offensive threat we have to worry about. Bird IMO gets hated far too much for his defense, he was elite on the weakside, and a terrific team defender. He didn't have the greatest lateral quickness, but watching a game recently, I felt alot of that was predicated on the torrid pace the Celtics played at. After all Bird was recognized for his team defense with his All-Defensive team selections.

We won't help too much, but considering Bird's team defense, it allows him to roam slightly more making it tougher on Oscar/West from the perimeter.

I'd say you're selling Cooper short by calling him "a very good defender". He was elite, one of the few guards to ever win a DPOY, and he did it coming off the bench, which shows you just how great his impact on the game was. In a USA Today article (http://cgi1.usatoday.com/mchat/20020206003/tscript.htm) Bird calls Cooper the toughest defender he ever faced. He consistently held Bird to about 45% shooting in the Finals when they faced each other (curious why you didn't list Bird's stats in the 85 and 87 series' ), and held Larry down just enough to let the rest of his more talented teammates win the games for them, which is about all I can ask for. He's not going to be able to stop Larry from scoring, rebounding, or creating for his teammates, but as long as he makes him a little less efficient and work for his shots, I'm happy with that.

BTW, Michael Cooper shot a total of 21/39 from three-point land over the course of 3 finals series vs the Celtics. If Bird plans to help off him, he's gonna pay. The man is an extremely underrated clutch performer.

As for Marion, I think he has the athleticism to recover after some of Bird's head fakes and at least contest shots, which is again all i can ask for. With Cooper playing 28 minutes and Marion playing 12, Bird will have a great defender on him at all times.

- I hope people don't underestimate Porter, his role is perfect on this team, play solid defense, give the ball up to Bird/Wade, and KNOCK down the open three point shot. He's proven next to a dominant wing and is a monster playoff performer

88-89: 22.0 points, 5.3 rebounds, 8.3 assists on .500/.364/.833
89-90: 20.6 points, 3.0 rebounds, 7.4 assists on .464/.395/.842
90-91: 18.1 points, 2.8 rebounds, 6.6 assists on .500/.362/.861

This is on a team that made the finals in 89-90, he was essentially a Billups clone, but in the 90's.

- Larry Bird is the best player in the series, I've often been quoted to say, if a matchup is close, the deciding factor fairly or unfairly should go to the team with the best player. Bird is a top 5 player to have played the game, and while West and Oscar are both fantastic players in their own right, both are widely listed on the outside of the Top 10.

- Wade isn't a different player in his championship year compared to what he put up yesterday. Is it because the extra three points per game? Wade has always been an exceptional mid-range shooter, with an absolutely deadly pull up jumpshot. Everyone saw that playoff run, and it looked like Wade never missed a shot.

- Bench edge, in an ATL, it's never a good thing to have players that are a liability on one end of the floor, more specifically on the offensive end of the floor. The players are too talented, and too well all rounded that most scorers also have a good all round game as well. In this case, while Eaton and Cooper have solid roles on the team, both are poor scorers that allow us to help and cheat off our man more so than usual.

That first series of Porter's was a grand total of 3 games, so its hard to put too much stock into that. Otherwise I agree, Porter is an underrated PG, but he's the 5th option on your team. He won't get enough shots to put up those numbers, and he isn't good enough defensively to impact the game in other ways.

Agreed on the Legend being the best player in this series, but he's going up against two guys that can easily be argued for in the top 10 of all time. I feel like there's not a big difference clutch-wise between Bird and West. Both have done some incredible things to close games, so I feel like if the game is close, I have a player who can hang with Bird and pull me to victory. Obviously you'll feel the same, but it would be amazing to watch two of the three most clutch players of all time (IMO) going at it.

Wade is definitely not as good a shooter then as he is now. His midrange shot was streakier and he had no range at all. Helping off him will allow me to focus more attention on Bird and Robinson when they attack. I'm not saying Wade can't shoot, but if he's left open from 3, I'll take that anyday over the other options I have here.

As for the bench, I believe I've addressed many of these points already. Cooper is just spotting up from 3, and when it counts he's proven he can knock them down. On your team, Bird, Robinson, Wade, and Hayes are all going to want 15-20 shots per game, and I don't know if you can accommodate that. Eaton is only playing 12 minutes, and having an offensively lacking bigman is not a huge problem, as long as you only have one. Eaton isn't going to be more than 5 feet away from the basket offensively, and as long as he can catch the ball and dunk it wouldn't be wise to play off him, especially since I've got fantastic playmakers in West, Robertson, Hardaway, and even Cooper. The weaknesses of my bench have been overstated, IMO

People tend to underrate Oscar's size. In shoes he's a good 6'7, weighing about 220 pounds. He's essentially the size of a typical small forward.

I think in that era, players heights were either greatly overrated or underrated, in this case, Oscar's was overrated. 6"7 in shoes would be claiming he's taller than either Kobe or Jordan, and just as tall as Carmelo Anthony. The reason why Oscar is known for his post game was because of his bulk, moreso than his height. Compare him to West (whom I feel is taller than his 6"2 frame listed on BR), both were considered the generations greatest guards. West weighed in at 175 pounds, and Oscar Robertson at 220 as you mentioned.

Other guards in that era?
Earl Monroe - 185 pounds
Sam Jones - 198 pounds
Jerry West - 175 pounds
Walt Frazier - 200 pounds
Dave Bing - 180 pounds
Pete Maravich - 197 pounds
Bob Cousy - 175 pounds
Hal Greer - 175 pounds

Oscar was taller than them, but he had that backdown game because he was much bigger than the rest of the elite guards in that era. Frazier is the biggest guard closest to him, and he's still a good 20 pounds less. Wade on the other hand, is measured in at 215, which is only 5 pounds less Oscar's listed weight. Look at this picture with Oscar and Eric Snow (6"3), the difference doesn't look to be 4 inches, in fact they look the same height. Re: I understand the argument he might have "lost" some height due to age, but a good four inches? I doubt it.



I honestly don't feel Oscar is that much bigger than Wade, especially to the extent of 3 inches. They're roughly the same size, and with someone that's quicker, and just as bulky as Oscar, I'd think he'd take Oscar more out of his element forcing him to the perimeter, where I repeat he was a much less efficient player. I don't understand how Wade is all of a sudden a much better player last season. He's the exact same player he was when he won the championship. He was still elite in the passing lanes, a monster on the weakside, and used his athleticism to stay with his man. That perception that Wade somehow improved this past season is false, rather he came back to the same level he was at, just with a greater responsibility, thus the increase in points per game.

West will still be able to have his way with Porter as well, since West has the height to pull up and shoot over Porter and the speed to blow past him.

I'll concede West will have his way, but once again bringing up height, shouldn't be an issue, as they're similar in size. West is listed as 6"2 on BR, but I personally consider him closer to 6"4, while Porter is listed as 6"3 and has a good twenty or so pounds on him. When Penny is in the game, we'll likely run a lineup with both Wade and DJ in the backcourt, having adequate defenders to cover either West/Oscar and Penny. Most of his defending will be done on either Oscar/West, as opposed to Penny Hardaway.

He's also missed a decent amount of games during the years TMAC chose, so injury problems could be a factor for him as well (though not as much as for Walton).

Just to clarify, Wade played 203 games of a possible 246, which translates to over 82% of games played. Then also consider he played in 41/42 playoff games, then that's nearly playing 85% of total games in a three year stretch. Wade's injury issues shouldn't be a problem, IMO.

For comparisons sake, Walton played a total 174 games of a possible 246 translating to roughly 69-70% of total games. Walton in the three years chosen missed the playoffs, had the one magical season, and the next year missed a possible 4 our of 6 PLAYOFF games, which ultimately led to the Blazers demise.

I should have touched on this more in my writeup as well, but rebounding will indeed be a positive for me. Cooper hurts (mostly because he played a lot more guard with the Lakers), but having Marion at about 16% off the bench will make up for it. Comparing West and Wade, Wade's rebound rate is about 8%, while West's was around 5% later in his career, when he was pulling down 4 rpg as opposed to 6-7 in his prime. I'd say those two are just about even. Oscar on Porter is definitely a large advantage to me, as by my extremely rough calculations, I'd estimate Oscar's to be about 11.5% compared to Porter's 6%. Dennis Johnson and Penny Hardaway have similar rebound rates, while Marion kills Eddie Jones and Sikma has a slight edge over my big men. Looking at it based on minutes played, since my worst rebounders won't actually see that much court time, we'd get something a lot different. I think the rebounding will be close overall, as both of us have excellent rebounding teams, but I think the strength of my backcourt and bench rebounding will win it for us overall.

Your main source of rebounding comes from your PG, PF, C and backup SF. My main source of rebounding comes from my PF, C, SF, and backup PF/C. Your top rebounders play a total of (38) (12) (34) and (30) minutes respectively. The Rockets top rebounders play a total of (36) (38) (40) and (20) minutes respectively. That's where the rebounding edge lies, Walton and Marion, two of your top rebounders are limited to shorter minutes because of either a bench role, or a concern of injury.

Off the bench, Eaton has never been an explosive rebounder, and Penny at SF is a liability waiting to happen. What I like about your team, is your more proven rebounders, but I'd like to reiterate my team has the same characteristics as well, Hayes, Bird, and Robinson have all proven they can be quality rebounders with other quality rebounders, the likes of McHale, Parish, Unseld and Duncan.

I am playing Walton 30 minutes in this series, not a big step up from 28, as I feel the two extra minutes really don't mean that much. Robinson is playing 38, so he's on the court for 8 more minutes than Walton, or 1/5th of the game more. I highly doubt that my team's success will be compromised by the 8 minutes Robinson gets to play against a DPOY center as opposed to Bill Walton.

It probably wouldn't make much a difference, but the more minutes Walton plays, the more cause of concern. Anyways, whether it's Walton or Eaton (who was more a post defender, Robinson was more faceup), as you admit, out frontcourt gets the edge.

I also disagree that JO and Brand aren't on the same level as Sikma. Jack never even made an All-NBA team, while JO is a three-time member and Brand made the 2nd team in the years I'm using. I'd argue that O'Neal and Brand are both as good as Sikma, as they are better shotblockers and scorers.

I think in this case, All-NBA Teams are moot, JO's efficiency is poor and one of the league leaders in getting his shot block, while Brand in only one season has he truly had any sort of success in the playoffs. Sikma brings an All-NBA Defender with the ability to space the floor from distance, and rugged rebounding on the inside. If we're bringing up awards, neither Brand or Sikma has made an All-NBA Defensive Team. Off the bench in an ATL, multi-facet games are critical, Sikma brings a more diverse game, with his superior rebounding, interior man defense, and range on his jumpshot. But I'll agree, it's not that large a difference, but I feel Sikma brings more to the game.

I'd say you're selling Cooper short by calling him "a very good defender". He was elite, one of the few guards to ever win a DPOY, and he did it coming off the bench, which shows you just how great his impact on the game was. In a USA Today article (http://cgi1.usatoday.com/mchat/20020206003/tscript.htm) Bird calls Cooper the toughest defender he ever faced. He consistently held Bird to about 45% shooting in the Finals when they faced each other (curious why you didn't list Bird's stats in the 85 and 87 series' ), and held Larry down just enough to let the rest of his more talented teammates win the games for them, which is about all I can ask for. He's not going to be able to stop Larry from scoring, rebounding, or creating for his teammates, but as long as he makes him a little less efficient and work for his shots, I'm happy with that.

That's my fault not bringing up 85, but didn't bring up 87, because it wasn't in the chosen seasons. That's what I tried to point out though, he shot 45% from the field in the 85 Finals (with rough averages of 24/9/5), but in the link I provided in my writeup he was well over 49% in stats after his three MVP seasons, and in the 84 Finals completely dominated Bird. The point is more times than not, Bird's effectiveness hasn't dropped, and he should have a large series.

BTW, Michael Cooper shot a total of 21/39 from three-point land over the course of 3 finals series vs the Celtics. If Bird plans to help off him, he's gonna pay. The man is an extremely underrated clutch performer.

Never claimed I would help, but would have the option in case one of your perimeter guards went wild, because Cooper can't create for himself as well as other starters in the ATL. It's much easier to recover on a spot up shooter, opposed to one with a more diverse offensive game. Bird should have his way, and even moreso against Marion.

That first series of Porter's was a grand total of 3 games, so its hard to put too much stock into that. Otherwise I agree, Porter is an underrated PG, but he's the 5th option on your team. He won't get enough shots to put up those numbers, and he isn't good enough defensively to impact the game in other ways.

But the next season, they made the finals and Porter put up similar stats, whether it's three games, or the finals, Porter has proven he's a big game performer. That's not the point though, my point was to show that Porter isn't a large liability on the floor like originally intended to be. He's a sharp shooter from the perimeter, an unselfish player proven next to a dominant wing, and was a good defender, but agreed, not an elite one. We could have easily picked up a Kevin Johnson type PG, but the game isn't won on individual matchups, it's a sum of all parts, and well defined roles. Porter's role on this team is perfect.

Agreed on the Legend being the best player in this series, but he's going up against two guys that can easily be argued for in the top 10 of all time. I feel like there's not a big difference clutch-wise between Bird and West. Both have done some incredible things to close games, so I feel like if the game is close, I have a player who can hang with Bird and pull me to victory. Obviously you'll feel the same, but it would be amazing to watch two of the three most clutch players of all time (IMO) going at it.

Yeah, I'd pay money to watch a matchup like that in the 4th quarter, with Bird winning of course

Wade is definitely not as good a shooter then as he is now. His midrange shot was streakier and he had no range at all. Helping off him will allow me to focus more attention on Bird and Robinson when they attack. I'm not saying Wade can't shoot, but if he's left open from 3, I'll take that anyday over the other options I have here.

I really disagree with this, Wade was an amazing mid-range shooter since the time he became an all-star in the league. That Dallas series, the Detroit series, his season FG% all showed that he was just as an effective mid-range shooter, and that 05-06 season established the year Wade made himself into one of the best mid-range shooters in the league. The only difference between Wade last season, and in 05-06 was that he had more responsibility throughout the entire season, thus the increase in points per game.

And Wade's a smart player, even if he's left open from three, he didn't jack it up, he knew his limitations and took the step in for a money mid-ranger or used the head start being open to gather his momentum, and get to the rim, a trait even at this stage of his career is at an all time level.

And like Cooper, Wade too was a clutch player.
- In the run to the finals, throughout the entire playoffs Wade shot 38% from three (23 games).

Eaton isn't going to be more than 5 feet away from the basket offensively, and as long as he can catch the ball and dunk it wouldn't be wise to play off him, especially since I've got fantastic playmakers in West, Robertson, Hardaway, and even Cooper

That's the thing, Eaton had stone hands and just wasn't a good offensive player. He's a liability on that end of the floor with his clumsiness and inefficiencies on that end of the floor. The bench argument has already gone in depth, but I'd like to mention, I'd rather have DJ coming off the bench, than Penny. Again, in an ATL, where scoring/ball-handling is in abundance, someone that can impact the game on both ends is always more appreciated, DJ is a proven two way player, with a clutch reputation.

On your team, Bird, Robinson, Wade, and Hayes are all going to want 15-20 shots per game, and I don't know if you can accommodate that.

I personally think it's work, the difference is, only Wade and Bird are more effective with the ball in their hands, Robinson and Hayes were more finishers and quick hitters on offense while Porter is more off the ball with his sharp shooting. Shot attempts can be adjusted if the need for the ball isn't as great.

Conclusion

Anyways, best of luck.

Ok there's a giant hurricane thats likely going to hit us by tomorrow night, so this might be my last rebuttal. I'll try to make it worthwhile and not bog down the page with useless words.

TMACFORMVP wrote: I think in that era, players heights were either greatly overrated or underrated, in this case, Oscar's was overrated. 6"7 in shoes would be claiming he's taller than either Kobe or Jordan, and just as tall as Carmelo Anthony. The reason why Oscar is known for his post game was because of his bulk, moreso than his height. Compare him to West (whom I feel is taller than his 6"2 frame listed on BR), both were considered the generations greatest guards. West weighed in at 175 pounds, and Oscar Robertson at 220 as you mentioned.

Other guards in that era?
Earl Monroe - 185 pounds
Sam Jones - 198 pounds
Jerry West - 175 pounds
Walt Frazier - 200 pounds
Dave Bing - 180 pounds
Pete Maravich - 197 pounds
Bob Cousy - 175 pounds
Hal Greer - 175 pounds

Oscar was taller than them, but he had that backdown game because he was much bigger than the rest of the elite guards in that era. Frazier is the biggest guard closest to him, and he's still a good 20 pounds less. Wade on the other hand, is measured in at 215, which is only 5 pounds less Oscar's listed weight. Look at this picture with Oscar and Eric Snow (6"3), the difference doesn't look to be 4 inches, in fact they look the same height. Re: I understand the argument he might have "lost" some height due to age, but a good four inches? I doubt it.



I honestly don't feel Oscar is that much bigger than Wade, especially to the extent of 3 inches. They're roughly the same size, and with someone that's quicker, and just as bulky as Oscar, I'd think he'd take Oscar more out of his element forcing him to the perimeter, where I repeat he was a much less efficient player. I don't understand how Wade is all of a sudden a much better player last season. He's the exact same player he was when he won the championship. He was still elite in the passing lanes, a monster on the weakside, and used his athleticism to stay with his man. That perception that Wade somehow improved this past season is false, rather he came back to the same level he was at, just with a greater responsibility, thus the increase in points per game.

I'll admit that Oscar might not be 6'7, though I have seen numerous sources quote him as that. I'll say 6'6 for the sake of discussion. Either way he still has an inch or two on Wade, and is at least just as strong. Guards today don't post up much, aside from Kobe, and Oscar had a deadly turnaround and fadeaway jumper that he could get off over anyone, and was extremely skilled at establishing position down low. Wade is not that skilled at defending in the post (but nearly no guards are) and his speed wouldn't help as much when trying to contest Oscar's jumpshot. It would also prevent Wade from using his athleticism to wreak havoc defensively, as it's hard to double off a guard when they're that close to the basket. At 6'6 and 220 pounds, Oscar's about the same size as Michael Jordan, who had no trouble shooting over bigger defenders and backing down smaller ones. Oscar's gone against some elite defensive guards in his time, I can't see Wade doing a better job than someone like Frasier or West.

Also, I never said Wade got much better this year, I said his defense did. He's always been an elite slasher, finisher, and ball-handler, but he really improved his defense this year, and was a worthy selection to the All-Defensive team, unlike his 04/05 selection IMO. I still think his mid-range game was shakier than it is now, but it was always good. Unfortunately in the years you're using, Wade was not the defender he is today. Offensively he's always been great, but he really stepped it up this year defensively.

I'll concede West will have his way, but once again bringing up height, shouldn't be an issue, as they're similar in size. West is listed as 6"2 on BR, but I personally consider him closer to 6"4, while Porter is listed as 6"3 and has a good twenty or so pounds on him. When Penny is in the game, we'll likely run a lineup with both Wade and DJ in the backcourt, having adequate defenders to cover either West/Oscar and Penny. Most of his defending will be done on either Oscar/West, as opposed to Penny Hardaway.

Weight doesn't really matter in this case, West has always been a slasher and a jumpshooter. But I say he has the height because West's pet move was a pullup jumper, and Porter doesn't have the length to really contest it. I can also play Penny alongside West and Oscar at times and have three elite perimeter threats on the court, which I might do to close out games or try and make a run.

[/quote]Just to clarify, Wade played 203 games of a possible 246, which translates to over 82% of games played. Then also consider he played in 41/42 playoff games, then that's nearly playing 85% of total games in a three year stretch. Wade's injury issues shouldn't be a problem, IMO.

For comparisons sake, Walton played a total 174 games of a possible 246 translating to roughly 69-70% of total games. Walton in the three years chosen missed the playoffs, had the one magical season, and the next year missed a possible 4 our of 6 PLAYOFF games, which ultimately led to the Blazers demise.[/quote]

I know, I was trying to sneak that by and hope the judges would actually consider my point valid But I think the injury thing is overrated in general. Just because he got injured in the playoffs once doesn't mean he's guaranteed to hurt himself again. Walton was so mad at the Blazers' staff that he refused to play for them again, which to me signifies that there were some issues with his injuries and their medical staff.

Your main source of rebounding comes from your PG, PF, C and backup SF. My main source of rebounding comes from my PF, C, SF, and backup PF/C. Your top rebounders play a total of (38) (12) (34) and (30) minutes respectively. The Rockets top rebounders play a total of (36) (38) (40) and (20) minutes respectively. That's where the rebounding edge lies, Walton and Marion, two of your top rebounders are limited to shorter minutes because of either a bench role, or a concern of injury.

Off the bench, Eaton has never been an explosive rebounder, and Penny at SF is a liability waiting to happen. What I like about your team, is your more proven rebounders, but I'd like to reiterate my team has the same characteristics as well, Hayes, Bird, and Robinson have all proven they can be quality rebounders with other quality rebounders, the likes of McHale, Parish, Unseld and Duncan.

I agree that my best rebounders won't be playing as many minutes as yours, but you also have to factor in my backup big men, who all rebound at similar rates to all your bigs. No matter who I have in the front court (Walton, McAdoo, JO, Brand, Eaton, Marion), all of them rebound at a similar level to your bigs. Bird is the clear difference maker here, but Oscar has a similar edge over your guards. Looking at it now, I'd call rebounding relatively equal, but I do have the best rebounder on either team in Walton, so in crucial possessions I can trust him to come up with a clutch rebound, whereas you have a bunch of solid ones, but no truly elite one like Walton. All my guys have played with elite rebounders as well (Oscar with Jerry Lucas, West with Elgin Baylor, McAdoo with Gar Heard, Walton with Mo Lucas), so I'm comfortable that they'll be able to coexist.

As for Penny? He's stronger and taller than your backup SF, so if Penny's a liability I wonder what Eddie Jones is (6'6, 190 lbs)

It probably wouldn't make much a difference, but the more minutes Walton plays, the more cause of concern. Anyways, whether it's Walton or Eaton (who was more a post defender, Robinson was more faceup), as you admit, out frontcourt gets the edge.

Of course, I did admit that your frontcourt was IMO the best in the league. My point is that the matchup is a lot closer than people may think, since David Robinson is a much more established name than Bill Walton, but at his peak Walton was every bit as good as Robinson. It's those extra minutes my backups have to play that give you the edge, but it's not like I'm trotting scrubs out there.

I think in this case, All-NBA Teams are moot, JO's efficiency is poor and one of the league leaders in getting his shot block, while Brand in only one season has he truly had any sort of success in the playoffs. Sikma brings an All-NBA Defender with the ability to space the floor from distance, and rugged rebounding on the inside. If we're bringing up awards, neither Brand or Sikma has made an All-NBA Defensive Team. Off the bench in an ATL, multi-facet games are critical, Sikma brings a more diverse game, with his superior rebounding, interior man defense, and range on his jumpshot. But I'll agree, it's not that large a difference, but I feel Sikma brings more to the game.

Why would they be moot? Both JO and Brand played in arguably the best era for PFs ever, and they were still recognized as being among the best. Not sure how JO getting his shot blocked a lot is related to him being as good as Sikma, but I do admit he's not the most efficient scorer. He is, however, an excellent defender, and even though he's never made an All-D team coaches and fans alike are aware of how great a shotblocker and man defender he is. It's likewise for Brand, except he's actually a good shooter. All three of these guys rebound at similar rates, score at similar rates, and are comparable defenders, and their PERs over their chosen three seasons reflect this, although Brand has a much higher rating than either of the other two. I just think that implying that Brand and O'Neal are one-dimensional is false. I consider O'Neal stronger defensively than offensively, and Brand has always been a great man defender as well. Between the two of them, I'd say my backup big men are just as good as Sikma.

That's my fault not bringing up 85, but didn't bring up 87, because it wasn't in the chosen seasons. That's what I tried to point out though, he shot 45% from the field in the 85 Finals (with rough averages of 24/9/5), but in the link I provided in my writeup he was well over 49% in stats after his three MVP seasons, and in the 84 Finals completely dominated Bird. The point is more times than not, Bird's effectiveness hasn't dropped, and he should have a large series.

Yeah I realized after that the 87 series wasn't part of his years, although it is for Cooper. I do agree that Cooper won't shut down Bird in anyway, but I'd be curious to see how much he actually guarded Bird during those games. Bird probably played 20+ minutes with Worthy or even Magic on him, both of whom are much weaker defensively than Coop. And in some of the games in your link Cooper played less than 25 minutes, which doesn't give him enough time to really affect anyone's game. Besides, I'd be happy forcing Bird to shoot 45% instead of his regular 49ish%.

Never claimed I would help, but would have the option in case one of your perimeter guards went wild, because Cooper can't create for himself as well as other starters in the ATL. It's much easier to recover on a spot up shooter, opposed to one with a more diverse offensive game. Bird should have his way, and even moreso against Marion.

Easier to recover on a spot up shooter? Those are the ones you have to recover on the most. An open three is one of the most efficient shots in the game, and it's a lot harder to recover on a guy like Cooper, who can nail the shot when given room, than it is for a guy like Wade, who would have to step in for a mid range shot and give the defense more time to react and rotate.

But the next season, they made the finals and Porter put up similar stats, whether it's three games, or the finals, Porter has proven he's a big game performer. That's not the point though, my point was to show that Porter isn't a large liability on the floor like originally intended to be. He's a sharp shooter from the perimeter, an unselfish player proven next to a dominant wing, and was a good defender, but agreed, not an elite one. We could have easily picked up a Kevin Johnson type PG, but the game isn't won on individual matchups, it's a sum of all parts, and well defined roles. Porter's role on this team is perfect.

I'm not saying he isn't a great fit, or that he isn't a big game performer, I'm just saying that his overall talent level is not up to snuff with my backcourt. I understand that he's not a liability, but out of the 4 starting guards, the talent level goes, IMO:

West
Robertson
Wade


Porter

It's the same thing for me and Cooper. Everyone will have one weak link on their team, but I will admit that you did a good job covering for yours.

Yeah, I'd pay money to watch a matchup like that in the 4th quarter, with Bird winning of course

Looks like you won't be paying much then

I really disagree with this, Wade was an amazing mid-range shooter since the time he became an all-star in the league. That Dallas series, the Detroit series, his season FG% all showed that he was just as an effective mid-range shooter, and that 05-06 season established the year Wade made himself into one of the best mid-range shooters in the league. The only difference between Wade last season, and in 05-06 was that he had more responsibility throughout the entire season, thus the increase in points per game.

And Wade's a smart player, even if he's left open from three, he didn't jack it up, he knew his limitations and took the step in for a money mid-ranger or used the head start being open to gather his momentum, and get to the rim, a trait even at this stage of his career is at an all time level.

And like Cooper, Wade too was a clutch player.
- In the run to the finals, throughout the entire playoffs Wade shot 38% from three (23 games).

Over the three years you've chosen, Wade was about a 39% shooter from mid-range. Decent, but not elite. He improved to about 43% this year, which puts him in the upper levels of mid-range shooters. For comparison's sake, 39% is about what LeBron shot this year, and people still think that he has no mid-range game. Again, I'm not saying Wade can't shoot or that I plan to leave him open, but I'll take my chances with 39% accuracy over the 60+% he shoots in the paint. Besides if he decides to hesitate and step in or start to drive, my guards and bigs would have time to rotate over and take the charge or at least contest his drives/shots.

That's the thing, Eaton had stone hands and just wasn't a good offensive player. He's a liability on that end of the floor with his clumsiness and inefficiencies on that end of the floor. The bench argument has already gone in depth, but I'd like to mention, I'd rather have DJ coming off the bench, than Penny. Again, in an ATL, where scoring/ball-handling is in abundance, someone that can impact the game on both ends is always more appreciated, DJ is a proven two way player, with a clutch reputation.

Eaton will play 12 minutes a game and likely take one or two shots off drop passes and offensive rebounds. His stone hands are an exaggeration, the guy had a decent enough touch to shoot over 70% from the line (doesn't mean much, but compared to other offensively challenged big men, Eaton is Dirk from the line). I don't need him to be an efficient offensive player, his defense more than makes up for that. As for DJ vs Penny, it depends if you value offense or defense more. I already have two elite defenders in Cooper and West in my starting lineup, so Penny's versatility made more sense for me, but I'd have drafted DJ if I was in your situation too. It's not like Penny's a liability defensively anyway, he can hold his own, and his elite offense pushes him over DJ IMO.

I personally think it's work, the difference is, only Wade and Bird are more effective with the ball in their hands, Robinson and Hayes were more finishers and quick hitters on offense while Porter is more off the ball with his sharp shooting. Shot attempts can be adjusted if the need for the ball isn't as great.

Robinson did a lot of his damage facing up and exploding past his man, and you need the ball for that. Hayes was more of a high post player than a pick and pop player too, so there might be some problems there, but I can't see that mattering much to be honest.

Anyways, best of luck.

Likewise

I had planned to do quite a significant writeup, but have had some rather serious family issues occur today while only half way through. I must respectfully forfeit this writeup. I do apologize to both bryant08 and the rest of the league.

First off, props to Warspite for building a really good team. He's definitely unbelievably knowledgeable about NBA players from all eras.

Now, on to the matchup:

Finger Roll:
PG: Walt Frazier (39) / K.C. Jones (8) / Joe Dumars (1) / Doug Christie (0) / Steve Kerr (0)
SG: Joe Dumars (38) / Doug Christie (9) / Shane Battier (1) / Steve Kerr (0)
SF: Bernard King (29) / Detlef Schrempf (16) / Shane Battier (3) / Doug Christie (0)
PF: Bob Pettit (40) / Gus Johnson (7) / Detlef Schrempf (1)
C: Bill Russell (42) / Arvydas Sabonis (5) / Bob Pettit (1) / Gus Johnson (0)

Spartans:
PG Isiah Thomas (32mpg), Lenny Wilkens (16mpg)
SG Ray Allen (28mpg), Sam Jones(24mpg)
SF Mullin(24mpg), English(12mpg)
PF KG (36mpg), Hawkins(8mpg), Cummings
C Moses (36mpg), Thurmond(24mpg), Ratlif


Offense:

It is apparent that the Spartans' perimeter defense is weaker than their interior defense, something we will look to exploit. Frazier enjoys a significant size and strength advantage over Isiah, and we will try to utilize this advantage to the fullest. Frazier will attack Isiah often, whether it be posting up or simply driving by him. Either way, we feel Isiah will have an extremely difficult time guarding Clyde. Dumars' role will consist largely of getting open (whether by a cut, screen, defensive rotating, etc.) for mid-range shots and some threes, but he will also handle the ball against Allen one-on-one occasionally, another matchup which we feel is to our advantage. Allen is not a terrible defender, but, again, it's not his calling card. King will also see the ball a lot against yet another guy not known for defense, Mullin. We believe that King will consistently be able to back Mullin down and hit one of his patented turnaround jumpers.

Now to the big men. KG is obviously one of the most versatile and best defenders not only of this era but, probably, ever, and Moses also was a very good defender, particularly in his prime. Still, we feel we will be able to exploit the interior defense in some ways. Pettit will be utilized in a number of pick-and-pops and pick-and-rolls with Frazier, and he will also receive the ball facing up KG one-on-one from the perimeter. Even at about 6'9", Pettit has a terrific outside shot and can also drive to the basket, so even KG will surely find himself greatly challenged on defense. Furthermore, this forces Garnett to stay on the perimeter frequently, so Moses will be the only big inside protecting the paint. When Frazier drives past Isiah, there is a good chance Moses will be forced to body up Frazier, leaving Russell wide open for an easy bucket. Additionally, Russell will occasionally setup the offense from the high post and many times initiate it in transition with his outlet passing.

Another thing to note: We believe we will be able to get to the free-throw line early and often, quite possibly getting some of the Spartans' starters in foul trouble along the way. Frazier averaged over 7 free throw attempts a game, Dumars got over 5, King took about 7.5, Pettit averaged double digits, and Russell got over 6. Granted, I realize these numbers will go down with less touches, but that gives you an idea of how effective my starters are at getting to the line. Combined with the Spartans' weak perimeter defense and the fact that Isiah is somewhat foul-prone (he averaged about 3 fouls per game for his career, and even fouled out 5 times and had 5 fouls 11 other times in 86-87, one of his chosen years), we feel that this will have a trickle-down effect on the whole team and hope to get some Spartans' in foul trouble.

Off the bench, our main offensive weapon will be Schrempf, who will present a huge problem to the Spartans', particularly when Pettit and Russell are also on the floor. In one of the seasons chosen, Schrempf averaged 19.1/9.5/6.0! The Spartans' will have extreme difficulties guarding the 6'9" Schrempf, who, as noted by his stats, is a phenomenal passer and, thus, hard to double.


Defense:

The Spartans have great offensive balance, but we believe we have the right guys to greatly limit their offense. Frazier and Dumars will actually see about equal time guarding each of the Spartans' starting guards (Thomas and Allen). Frazier will be the toughest defender Isiah has ever gone up against, and Isiah will find every trip to the lane to be a great challenge. Still, Frazier will see some time guarding Allen, where he will use his quickness and coordination to rack up off-ball steals on passes. Also, Dumars familiarity with Thomas might improve his already outstanding defense when guarding Isiah. We also feel that with Isiah doing most of the ball-handling, Allen may be relegated to primarily a spot-up shooter. Granted, Allen is a lights-out shooter, and there's no way to stop him from hitting one or two a game, but we feel that our incredible backcourt defense can significantly limit the damage done. K.C. Jones and Doug Christie will also provide excellent defense off the bench.

At SF, the Spartans have some explosive scorers. King may not be a great defender, but he is decent and will do a good job containing his man, knowing he's got help from the bigs if someone gets by. Schrempf is a good defender, and Battier gives great defense for the few minutes he's in each game.

Defensively, we will very rarely double team anyone, even Moses. Russell will take him on straight-up. Yes, Moses will get his, but I'd say Russell has some experience going up against a dominant center... Russell anchors the defense and will be there to block anyone who somehow gets to the rim.

As for Pettit on KG, we feel confident that Pettit will be very effective. Pettit is a good, smart defender and will do a fine job on Garnett. Also, because Isiah and Moses will probably be the focus of the Spartans' offense, we believe that KG will mainly take jumpers and set screens on the offensive end (although he'll probably handle the ball in a point forward role at times), a role which he is good at but certainly not a game-changer. Gus Johnson will also do a good job off the bench banging down low.


Rebounding:

This is a very interesting area. Warspite has one of the best rebounding teams in the entire tournament. This would surely be a huge advantage against most teams. But, against us, we feel that not only will it not be a huge advantage for Warspite, it will not even be an advantage at all. We believe we are the superior rebounding team.

Let's compare the starters:

At PG, there's not argument; Frazier is the better rebounder. He averages more rebounds than Isiah and has a better rebounding rate.

We will concede that Allen is a better defender than Dumars, but it's not as if Allen is some monster on the glass (has averaged 5+ RPG twice in his career).

King and Mullin average somewhat similar RPG in the years chosen, but King has a significant edge in rebounding rate.

Now here's where it gets interesting: four of the best rebounders of all time.

Unfortunately, there are no rebounding rates available for Pettit, and it's difficult to compare RPG across eras, but I think we all can agree that Pettit and KG are both incredible rebounders, and this probably would be very close either way.

Again, unfortunately, Russell's rebounding rates are unavailable. Still, I think the same as above applies. Probably two even better rebounders, this would be another close matchup (although I feel Russell is better, I understand that this could be argued either way).


Summary:

We believe that we will be able to exploit Spartans' perimeter defense and contain his offense, and even have a slight rebounding edge.

Furthermore, look at the minutes per game. My starters are playing 188 MPG; Spartans' starters are playing 156. That's a significant difference. You may think that this allows his starters to be better rested, but this is really not the case. All of my starters had seasons of 40+ MPG besides King, and he played in the mid/high 30s. And they didn't seem to have any trouble performing at the end of the game. We believe that our starters will outplay the Spartans, and we certainly have confidence in our starters against their bench.

Once again, congrats to Warspite on building a great team, but Finger Roll in 7.

Warspite wrote:1. Take adv of lack of size of Fingerolls team.

Typically, lack of size hurts defensively or rebounding. However, with my team, these are not issues at all. First off, we really aren't too undersized, and, even if we were, we would have the skills to overcome this. Frazier has great size and is a legendary defender, Dumars, while somewhat undersized for SG, is another great defender against all guards, short and tall alike, King has ok size for a SF at 6'7", Pettit is a terrific rebounder and, at 6'9", not really undersized for a PF, and I don't think anyone would possibly try to use Russell's size as an argument against him. Who cares how tall a guy is if he's probably the best defender ever and a top 5, maybe top 1, rebounder to boot? And while it's not a huge deal, I've got some good size off the bench with guys like Schrempf and Sabonis.

Warspite wrote:2. Take Adv of slow foot speed at forward

I'm not going to argue that my forwards are my best defenders, but they're still above average and far from liabilities. And even your guys drive past my forwards, remember that Russell is waiting at the rim for them. And, while with most guys, that help defense would allow Moses to either slip wide open or crash the offensive boards, keep in mind that Russell is quick enough and skilled enough to recover in time to prevent this.

Warspite wrote:3. Take adv of tired starters playing exteneded mins.

I have a hard time believing this to be the case, because, as I explained in my write-up, all my starters are used to playing heavy minutes, and they still played great down the stretch. In fact, with the exception of Dumars, all of my starters are slated to play LESS MPG than their career playoff averages. And Dumars still played in the mid/high 30s in terms of MPG.

Warspite wrote:4. take adv of grossly inferior bench.

First of all, you have to keep in mind that my bench is playing a combined 52 MPG, or less than 11 MPG per position. Yours is playing 86 MPG, over 17 per position. So your bench will often be going up against my starters.

But that's besides the point. I disagree with the notion that my bench is "grossly inferior". My bench players all fit their roles perfectly. Jones is a great defender who quarterbacked multiple championship squads, Christie is a lockdown defender and knockdown shooter who can also run an offense, Kerr is a shooter off the bench, Battier is an excellent defender and shooter, Schrempf is a matchup nightmare who can do it all offensively while playing solid d, Johnson is a tremendous athlete on both ends of the court who is extremely underrated, particularly in his prime (18/12, 17/14, 18/17, 2 First Team All-Defense in the years I chose), Sabonis is an extremely skilled big who is well-rounded, can post up, d up, and even hit the 3 (at 7'3"!). When it comes to benches, I've always felt that fit is more important than talent, and my bench, in addition to being very talented, does a great job fulfilling their roles, IMO.

Warspite wrote:The Spartans again on offense look to stretch the defense of Fingerolls team with great outside shooting and useing that space to get Frazier on an island with Isiah who can break down Frazier and force Russell to rotate. Moses is the GOAT off rebounder and a stellar def rebounder. Leaving him is almost a a guarrenteed putback. If Isiah is doubled shooters on the wings are ready to make the extra pass, drive the lane or release with deadly accuracy.

Yes, you have great shooters, but they will not be seeing as many open shots as some might expect, because, with the defenders I have, I can afford to play man-to-man basically all game, practically never double teaming.

We believe Isiah will find a lot of trouble breaking down Frazier. It's much easier said than done. Frazier is skilled, has great quickness, coordination, and fundamentals, and terrific size.

And, like I said, leaving Moses is normally a guaranteed score, but not with Russell. Russell is so quick that he's noted for helping teammates defensively and still getting back to his man in time to prevent a score.

Warspite wrote:Spartans on def look to double King and force a 3apg player to find open shooters. For Pettit We have KG who is an ideal defender. He can go 1on1 and force off balanced shots and keep him outside with his length, size and speed. Dumars is the lone outlet shooter and Frazier needs to be closer to the basket. Eitherway in a ATL game forcing up 18ft jumpshots or contested 3s is a big win for the defense.

King is not a great passer, but, like most great players, if you double him, he can and will hurt you. In his career, King had 10+ assists 5 times (including 14 once), and 5+ assists over 100 times. And we don't think you have the wing defenders to take him one-on-one.

Plus, you will encounter a similar scenario with Schrempf. Only then, doubling will certainly fail, as Schremp is a great passer.

Warspite wrote:I believe Moses will still be an effective off player vs Russell. His rebounding will be below avg but I still contend that he will either be able to make a differance or draw so much attention that KG or Thurmond will be able to make an impact.

I'm not saying that Moses won't score. He's a legend, and he'll get his. But Russell will do a better job than anyone of containing him and doing whatever it takes to lead us to victory. And he won't need help defense to do it, which negates a huge advantage Moses' teams will usually have: double-teams leading to open shots for other guys. That simply won't happen here.

Warspite wrote:You ask yourself how many pts would Fingerrolls bench be outscored in the 10mpg its on the floor? Can you realy say that Fingerrolls starters can make up the differance? Adding to the extra pressure the Spartan bench can still play with Fingerrolls starters.

The Spartans bench could most likley win 2 games vs Fingerrolls starters and devastate the weak bench of the Fingerrolls team. The Spartans starters are always more rested and never have to worry about there bench putting them in a hole while FIngerrolls starters know they need to outplay the Sparatn starters just to keep the game close and give them a chance in the 4th qter. However in that 4th quarter my shooters have fresher legs and rebounders have more energy. As the series goes on Fingerrolls team wears down they become less and less effective and any injury, foul trouble becomes exaserbated as the bench cannot produce on the level of its starters.

I've already addressed the benches and minutes above. Not to mention the fact that I won't take all 5 starters out at the same time.

Centers

I thought that both teams did a good job describing the center battle. I will disagree with CellarDoor, because I believe that Artis Gilmore was indeed slightly better than Alonzo Mourning, but the difference isn't very big. Lanier is also a much more talented player than Bill Laimbeer, as Snakebites has pointed out, but I do agree with CellarDoor that Laimbeer's skillset, which is very useful in the ATL, narrows the gap. But Lanier was no slouch himself in terms of being able to space the court.

One thing that another judge (who hasn't voted yet) pointed out to me is that whie Zo is one of the best help defenders ever, he's not quite that caliber of a man defender. That will give him problems against the super strong Artis Gilmore.

I think the edge at the pivot is clearly to Snakebites, even though the difference isn't that big.

Forwards

Likewise, both coaches/GMs were fairly accurate with their portrayal of the forwards. I wanted to comment on one thing though: Snakebites mentioned in his roster thread that Jerry Lucas was able to collect so many rebounds because he had great leaping ability. Although I did not see Lucas play, every indication from older fans is that he did not have much of a vertical at all, but rather, secured his rebounds by positioning himself well (and also having an incredible sense of where the ball would land). Oh, and one more thing--CellarDoor kept referring to Jon Barry in his roster thread, so if Rick's son is the one starting at the 3 in this matchup, his team is in deep trouble!

I think Rick Barry is clearly the best and most talented forward on either squad. He's the most versatile scorer and playmaker. Certainly, he's the most capable of taking over the game, and I don't think his efficiency stats do him justice. Paul Pierce is a great player in his own right, but he'll only slow down Barry minimally. But I think Pierce can do some damage on the other end as well. He won't take over games with his scoring, but he'll contribute very efficiently, especially as Jordan draws all the attention.

Jerry Lucas was a more talented player than Buck Williams, but Buck provides the defense, rebounding, and efficiency that I love in the ATL, so that closes the gap. Thus, the forwards are still in CellarDoor's favor, especially given his ability to bring Bobby Jones off the bench; I love the Secretary of Defense, and in my opinion, he is the best glue player to ever play the game.

Guards

I think this is the highlight of the series. CellarDoor has two excellent all-around guards in Gary Payton and Sidney Moncrief, with Cheeks and Sloan off the bench, but SnakeBites has the undisputed greatest guard to ever play the game in Michael Jordan, and has surrounded him with solid players like Dave Bing and Joe Johnson.

I love the matchups here. Forget Joe Dumars--it was Gary Payton who gave MJ more trouble than anyone else, but to be fair, 1996 Jordan was not nearly as good as the Jordan that Dumars faced at the turn of the decade. But his backcourt running mate Sidney Moncrief might be an even better answer for MJ! This one-two duo will limit Jordan as much as can possibly be done, but Jordan will still get his. Nonetheless, Payton and Moncrief will make significant contributions of their own on offense.

I like Deron Williams as a fit next to Jordan on offense. However, I think he's outclassed by Payton. Snakebites has easily the best player in either backcourt, but Moncrief, Payton, and arguably Cheeks are all better than anyone else in this matchup, and they're all on CellarDoor's team. I think this is too close to call, but I'm inclined to give a slight edge to Snakebites here because of the Jordan factor and the superior spacing.

Offense

I think Snakebites has a pretty solid advantage offensively. Both teams are pretty efficient, with a one-two punch of Jordan and Gilmore, surrounded by Lucas, Pierce, and Williams, Snakebites' squad has the more efficient squad. Volume scoring also seems to be in his favor. Playmaking seems to be about even--maybe a slight edge to Snakebites. But perhaps more importantly, Snakebites has extremely good spacing to allow Jordan and Gilmore room to operate.

Defense

Snakebites has some great defenders on his team, but this is CellarDoor's team in a landslide. With Payton at the 1, Moncrief at the 2, Buck Williams at the 4, Zo at the 5, and Cheeks, Sloan, and Jones coming off the bench, all great defensive lineups in the ATL will be compared to this team.

I'm a big fan of great defense in the ATL: it's the aspect of the game I've emphasized in constructing both my teams. And it's for this reason that deciding the matchup has been so difficult for me.

Rebounding

I haven't crunched the numbers, but just eyeballing it, this looks like a very slight advantage in Snakebites' favor. Gilmore has a slight advantage over Mourning, whereas Payton has an even smaller one over D. Williams. Lucas and B. Williams are two of the greatest rebounders ever at their position; likewise, Jordan and Moncrief. Pierce and Barry play out to essentially a draw.

Intangibles

This matchup is close, but I think that Michael Jordan tips it in favor of Snakebites. Payton, B. Williams, and Mourning were contemporaries of his who simply had no shot at winning while Jordan was dominating his era, and while CellarDoor has several players that came up big at key moments, Snakebites has quite a few reasonably clutch players next to Jordan as well.

So I'm going to give this matchup to Snakebites by a hair. I think both teams have really talented squads that fit together very well. CellarDoor has a defensive lineup that can potentially put the clamps on any high-flying squad, but in the end, it would be difficult to bet against prime Michael Jordan surrounded by offensive pieces that complement him so perfectly.

My apologies to everyone for taking so long to get this decided. It was really a difficult decision that took much consideration and consultation with other RealGM members. And sorry, CellarDoor, you truly had an excellent squad that I had thought would advance very deep in this competition, and I felt like I had to decide against you by the smallest of margins.

Thanks for settling the first round Shawn.

If I don't see a thread in a bit for the 2nd round I'll go ahead and post it.