Ringless Historical Team game--Post regular season standings

[penbeast0]

This is a variation of the ATL we are running on the Players Comparisom board . . . curious to see whether there is more of a player base here. You pick your all-time team for your franchise, players must have played 200 games with your team BUT there is one caveat . . . That player cannot have been on a championship team with your franchise. (They can have played on one somewhere else but not with your team). This should insure that the Lakers/Celtics/Bulls don't dominate the competition. We will vote on regular season standings so no limitation on the number of teams that can join -- just submit a writeup.

Example -- from the PC Board competition:
The Orlando Magic (probably the most talented team out there so am using it as an example instead )

C - Shaquille O'Neal 1993-94 (27.3 PPG 12.2 RPG 2.3 APG .8 SPG 2.7 BPG 53.2 FG%) Age 21
PF - Dwight Howard 2008-09 (20.7 PPG 13.9 RPG 1.4 APG 1.0 SPG 2.9 BPG 51.6 FG%) Age 23
SF - Grant Hill 2004-05 ( 19.7 PPG 4.8 RPG 3.3 APG 1.4 SPG 49% FG 82.1 FT% ) Age 32
SG - T. McGrady 2000-01 (23.1 PPG 6.4 RPG 3.9 APG 1.3 SPG 45 FG% 35.4 3PT% 73.3 FT%) Age 21
PG - A. Hardaway 1995-96 (21.1 PPG 4.2 RPG 6.9 APG 2.0 SPG 49% FG 34% 3PT 77.6 FT%) Age 24
Bench
F/ C Horace Grant 1994-95 (13 PPG 9.8 RPG 2.3 APG 1.0 SPG 1.0 BPG 52% FG 69.2 FT% ) Age 29
F Rashard Lewis 2008-09 (17.6 PPG 5.7 RPG 2.6 APG 1.0 SPG 44.9 FG% 83.6 FT 38.2 3PT%) Age 29
F - Hedo Turkoglu 2007-08 ( 19.1 PPG 5.6 RPG 4.9 APG 47 FG% 38.1 3PT% 82.9 FT% ) Age 28
F - Dennis Scott 1990-91 ( 21.1 PPG 3.8 RPG 2.2 APG 1.2 SPG 45 FG% 35 3PT% 75 FT% ) Age 22
G/F N Anderson 1992-93 (20.4 PPG 6.4 RPG 3.4 APG 1.7 SPG 46.1 FG% 34.4 3PT% 69.2 FT%) 25
G - Scott Skiles 1990-91 ( 19.1 PPG 3.8 RPG 9.4 APG 1.3 SPG 46 FG% 36.4 3PT% 90.2 FT% ) Age 26
G - Jameer Nelson 2008-09 ( 19.3 PPG 4 RPG 6.2 APG 1.4 SPG 48 FG% 41 3PT% 88.7 FT% ) Age 26

[CellarDoor]

Dear God Chicago would be horrible.

PG: Norm Van Lier/Theus/Kirk
SG: Sloan/Gordon
SF:Deng/Rose?
PF: Oakley/Brand
C: Artis Gilmore

I'm missing a few I know, but even still, that team's gonna get slaughtered. Great defense though.

[TMACFORMVP]

PG - John Lucas - Calvin Murphy
SG - Tracy McGrady - Mike Newlin
SF - Shane Battier - Rudy Tomjanovich
PF - Elvin Hayes - Otis Thorpe
Cc - Moses Malone - Yao Ming

Didn't check the games played, so might not be valid, and am assuming Barkley was too injured throughout his tenure to have played 200 games (though he did play like four seasons).

[All In The Name]

Miami Heat

PG: Tim Hardaway / Bimbo Coles
SG: Eddie Jones / Steve Smith / Voshon Lenard
SF: Glen Rice / Keith Askins
PF: Brian Grant / Grant Long / John Salley
C: Rony Seikaly / P.J. Brown

This team is very well-rounded. It's got a lot of very good / great defenders, some excellent shooters, and plenty of good scorers. PG depth isn't great, but Hardaway is an excellent starter.

Only 18 players fit the criteria.

[bryant08]

I think the Raps would be alright since it's just a combination of the greatest players who've played more than 200 games for the team.

C Antonio Davis - Charles Oakley
PF Chris Bosh - Andrea Bargnani
SF Doug Christie - Morris Peterson
SG Vince Carter - Anthony Parker
PG Damon Stoudamire - Alvin Williams - Jose Calderon

I've looked for others, honestly can't see anyone else that's even played above 200 games. I guess it's a decent team, lots of character and toughness on that roster, plus an offense oriented around Bosh/VC.

[roc]

Not motivated

[Snakebites]

PISTONS:

Bob Lanier/Antonio McDyess
Dave Debusschere/Bailey Howell/Terry Mills
Grant Hill/Kelly Tripucka/Terry Tyler
Allan Houston/Kelly Tripucka/Jerry Stackhouse
Dave Bing/Gene Shue

Turns out, if you bring together all the pieces from Pistons teams who never hit the "big time", so to speak, you can actually put together a strong lineup.

This starting lineup has 3 players that can serve as the focal point of an offense, as all 3 of Bing, Hill, and Lanier have versatile offensive skill sets and passing ability. Lanier is also an exceptional defender at the center spot. We also have Allan Houston to spread the floor with his terrific outside shooting and Dave Debusschere to add hustle, defensive versatility, and rebounding.

Bench has a surplus of great scorers at the wings and great hustle players/rebounders at the backup big spots. We feature scrappy defense, hustle and determination coupled with some exceptional offensive players.

[penbeast0]

As we come to the end (and because there weren't any comments on the Buffalo Clippers), I will switch to a third team just for the fun of it.

THE DENVER NUGGETS

C Dikembe Mutombo/Dan Issel/Marcus Camby
PF Bobby Jones/Dan Issel/Antonio McDyess
SF Carmelo Anthony/Alex English
SG David Thompson/Ralph Simpson
PG Fat Lever/Anthony Miller/Michael Adams

Great shotblocking centers in Deke and Camby with Bobby Jones and McDyess adding more great defense and high percentage shooting (Jones was 1st team all-D at both C and PF for the Nuggets and had a 2 steal, 2 block season while leading the league in fg%). Issel add outside scoring and a great work ethic to give a change of pace when needed.

Great scoring wings, not just Carmelo, English and the Skywalker but Simpson also posted a 25ppg season on 50% shooting, finishing ahead of the like of George Gervin and Thompson on the All-ABA team. Lever can also swing to the 2.

Tough physical PGs in triple double threat Fat Lever who averaged around 18/8/8 for 4 years plus Miller and 3 point shooting sparkplug Adams (26 pts/10 assists mainly from 3!).

The team has great defense with Deke, Bobby Jones (maybe the greatest pure defensive forward ever), and Lever plus Carmelo's improvement and Thompson's physical skills; great scoring led by the man Michael Jordan patterned his game after, Carmelo, and English who scored more points in the 80s than anyone; great rebounding with Mutombo, a young Bobby Jones, our athletic wings, and Lever who is one of the top 3 rebounding PGs of all time (Magic and Oscar). We have clear stars (our wings) with players who are willing to sacrifice their scoring for the team around them (but who can score quite well if needed) and we have the physical speed and athleticism to run other teams off the floor.

[Miller4ever]

Cincinnati/Kansas City/Omaha/Sacramento Royals/Kings

Lineup

1961-1962 Oscar Robertson
6'6"
30.8 PPG
12.5 RPG
11.4 APG
N/A SPG
N/A BPG
.478 FG%
N/A 3P%
.803 FT%
The greatest player in franchise history, Oscar Robertson did the impossible and averaged a triple-double over 79 games. Not only that, he maintained good percentages for such high volume scoring.

1985-1986 Reggie Theus
6'7"
18.3 PPG
3.7 RPG
9.8 APG
1.4 SPG
0.2 BPG
.480 FG%
.171 3P%
.827 FT%
Of the most underrated players of all time, Reggie Theus was one of the greatest combo guards to play the game, at 6'7" and court vision to net him nearly 10 assists a game, as well as the physical skills to guard multiple positions.

1995-1996 Mitch Richmond
6'5"
23.1 PPG
3.3 RPG
3.1 APG
1.5 SPG
0.2 BPG
.447 FG%
.437 3P%
.866 FT%
Picking a season for him was like enjoying a buffet. Richmond was super-accurate from deep and incredibly hard to get past on the other end of the court.

2001-2002 Chris Webber
6'9"
24.5 PPG
10.1 RPG
4.8 APG
1.7 SPG
1.4 BPG
.495 FG%
.263 3P%
.749 FT%
Webber was one of the rare passing big men of his generation, and his range also made him an offensive beast. His defense may not have been like Olajuwon, but he could cause turnovers.

1968-1969 Jerry Lucas
6'9"
18.3 PPG
18.4 RPG
4.1 APG
N/A SPG
N/A BPG
.551 FG%
N/A 3P%
.755 FT%
Another relatively unknown name, Jerry Lucas was another great passing big who shot efficiently and with great range.

Bench

Coming soon.

Nate Archibald(72-73)/Mike Bibby
Kevin Martin/Tom Van Arsdale
Peja Stojakovic/Tom Van Arsdale
Otis Thorpe/Wayman Tisdale
Brad Miller/Wayman Tisdale

[jcldallas24]

Dallas Mavericks

Roy Tarpley/Erick Dampier
Dirk Nowitzki/Sam Perkins
Mark Aguirre/Jamal Mashburn/Josh Howard
Michael Finley/Rolando Blackman/Jim Jackson
Jason Kidd/Steve Nash/Derek Harper

[Snakebites]

^You forgot Derick Harper.

Not better than Kidd or Nash, but definitely better than Devin Harris.

[bastillon]

PG - John Lucas - Calvin Murphy
SG - Tracy McGrady - Mike Newlin
SF - Shane Battier - Rudy Tomjanovich
PF - Elvin Hayes - Otis Thorpe
Cc - Moses Malone - Yao Ming

Didn't check the games played, so might not be valid, and am assuming Barkley was too injured throughout his tenure to have played 200 games (though he did play like four seasons).

Otis Thorpe won a ring in '94 and Tomjanovich too, but as a coach. Sampson and McCray should've been on that roster definitely.

I'm going with the Warriors

Wilt/Thurmond
Parish/Jamison
Mullin/Richmond/Richardson
Richmond/Spree
Tim Hardaway/Baron/Lucas

Wilt + outside shooting. I think it'll be respectable team since Wilt is considered a TOP5 player and no one in this competition is as high.

[Snakebites]

^Even with Parish out of position as a PF, this is game over.

The Warriors were the team I was alluding to when I said if someone picks them its over.

[roc]

It is close but I would go with the Magic in a head to head match up.

[penbeast0]

Looking at the 8 teams (not including my posting), I see it breaking down into 3 tiers.

At the bottom come Miami and Toronto.
-- Toronto should be okay offensively with Bosh and Vince but neither really has proved they can lead a team anywhere and Damon Stoudamire is not a very good NBA point (inefficient with weak defense and shoots too much). Christie and AD are roleplayers with AD the equivalent of starting Tony Battie today; he is a hard worker but just not talented enough to compete at this level as anything but a reserve.
-- Miami is a bit better but not enough to compete. Timdog can create enough offense with shooters like Rice, Jones, and Seikaly but again, they are overmatched inside and Grant doesn't completely cover Seikaly's defense and there isn't the help D to cover Rice and Hardaway's men. I'd take the Zo/Timmy teams over this all-star group, I liked Seikaly but he's not enough to make up for missing Zo.

The next group are the good teams – Chicago, Dallas, and the Kings/Royals.
--Sacramento has terrific offense with Oscar playing with a bunch of excellent passing scorers. What they don’t have is defense. Lucas is overmatched at center, Richmond is better at the 2 than the 3, Webber was inconsistent, and Theus never bothered to play defense much at all. This team will always be dangerous but needs that defensive presence – even the Webber/Peja teams had Vlade Divac who provided the glue that kept them together.
-- Dallas relies way too heavily on the drug addicted Roy Tarpley since they need that interior defense to complete in this league – and Tarpley just was NEVER reliable. Nor was he able to play with the likes of Gilmore or Houston’s big three. Otherwise, there’s a ton of depth and talent with Dirk likely to be even more effective since almost all of the other teams have gone big and physical at the 4 – Dirk’s strength.
-- I assume Chicago would also add the rest of the competitive Van Lier/Sloan squad -- team scoring leaders Bob Love and Chet Walker plus Tom Boerwinkle at C, but that they play only light reserve minutes. Chicago could be better than the next level teams if Gilmore was the ABA version but for whatever reason, while incredibly efficient in Chicago, he was also much more passive defensively (knees?). This team isn't missing for fire and defense though with Van Lier, Sloan and Oakley and if Gilmore and Deng catch that fire, it could be very good. The trouble is that they have zero outside shooting unless Gordon is out there (Love and Boerwinkle actually played outside on those teams). Deng probably isn’t a good choice, Love (25ppg and All-D team) or even Gordon would be better with Sloan able to slide to SF if needed.


This leaves three teams competing at the top level – the Warriors, the Pistons, and the Rockets, probably in that order.
-- Houston would be brutal inside with Malone and Hayes both great rebounders and physical players, plus Yao as well! That tandem also is very talented offensively though neither passes well but you are relying on Tracy McGrady outside and he is fragile and seems to need to be the main man to have the team play well around him for some reason. Battier brings zero to the offensive end, but as Bruce Bowen in SA has shown,
that isn’t always a killer, and Lucas is an excellent fit if he can keep his nose clean. I don’t remember when the coke problems started but they mess up team chemistry.
-- Detroit is a team that fits together well with Lanier versatile inside game complementing the outside shooting of Bing and Houston and the terrific forward combination of Grant Hill and Dave DeBusschere. The bench is only average and the guards don’t play great defense but with the offense running through Hill, this team should jell in a way few of the others seem to.
-- Nonetheless, Wilt and the Warriors are just too talented. There isn’t a team of destiny like Boston here and Wilt has good talent around him; but it is mainly Wilt. He is the best player in this competition by a bigger margin than in his day. I’m not enamored of using Parish next to him, Parish in GS was a fairly passive big and not that good in the open floor plus using Thurmond in that role caused problems when Wilt was actually on the team but can see why Jamison is better as instant offense off the bench. (Larry “Mean Mr.” Smith maybe?) but the Mullen/Richmond tandem on the wings gives great balance with the shotblocking of Wilt/Parish/Thurmond to cover their defense plus Timdog’s playmaking and aggressiveness will give some fast breaks too. Plus decent depth. This team should win the league.

[Snakebites]

Okie dokie.

In reverse order:

Toronto: It seems the Raptors haven't been around long enough to put together a team that can compete with these older franchises. They've had some talent come through there in the last number of years, but overall it just seems a little overmatched.

Miami: Without the championship crew, this team simply feels like the bad early expansion Heat teams with a couple of solid but non-franchise changing guys thrown into the mix. Just not quite there, IMO.

Dallas: I had a tough choice between this team and Sacramento. Both great teams but severely lacking in defensive ability. Explanation as to why Sacramento was given the edge is directly below.

Sacramento: I guess I liked the mix of offensive talent better here. Oscar Robertson is the second best player in this competition and the rest of the group contains a slew of terrific offensive players to go around him. Ultimately, though, I went with the team that had the best player between the two, since I saw similar issues.

Chicago: Ironically sold short by their own creator, Cellar Door. Great defensive presence on the perimeter and one of the best center big men in this game manning things down low.

Denver: Really like this team. I seriously considered placing them ahead of Houston, but ultimately couldn't justify it with the big man pairing the Rockets boasted. Dominating interior defense coupled with great scoring. Not really a strong chink in the armor of this team, though I don't see a great outside shooting threat there.

Houston: The dominant big man pairing alone puts them this high. I dont think there is much else to say about this team pen hasn't already said.

Warriors: The best team in this competition, and it will take some convincing to make me think its particularly close. Give the dynamic and popular run TMC trio the dominant inside presence they always lacked. Even if the fit isn't ideal, Wilt/Parish/Thurmond is just too much to handle as a big man rotation, with Wilt being very clearly the best player in this competition. Check and mate.

[penbeast0]

Denver?

[Snakebites]

Denver?

Sorry about that.

Was going off the teams you had in your post and forgot your own team.

Fixed.

[Miller4ever]

-- Toronto should be okay offensively with Bosh and Vince but neither really has proved they can lead a team anywhere and Damon Stoudamire is not a very good NBA point (inefficient with weak defense and shoots too much). Christie and AD are roleplayers with AD the equivalent of starting Tony Battie today; he is a hard worker but just not talented enough to compete at this level as anything but a reserve.
-- Miami is a bit better but not enough to compete. Timdog can create enough offense with shooters like Rice, Jones, and Seikaly but again, they are overmatched inside and Grant doesn't completely cover Seikaly's defense and there isn't the help D to cover Rice and Hardaway's men. I'd take the Zo/Timmy teams over this all-star group, I liked Seikaly but he's not enough to make up for missing Zo.

The next group are the good teams – Chicago, Dallas, and the Kings/Royals.
--Sacramento has terrific offense with Oscar playing with a bunch of excellent passing scorers. What they don’t have is defense. Lucas is overmatched at center, Richmond is better at the 2 than the 3, Webber was inconsistent, and Theus never bothered to play defense much at all. This team will always be dangerous but needs that defensive presence – even the Webber/Peja teams had Vlade Divac who provided the glue that kept them together.
-- Dallas relies way too heavily on the drug addicted Roy Tarpley since they need that interior defense to complete in this league – and Tarpley just was NEVER reliable. Nor was he able to play with the likes of Gilmore or Houston’s big three. Otherwise, there’s a ton of depth and talent with Dirk likely to be even more effective since almost all of the other teams have gone big and physical at the 4 – Dirk’s strength.
-- I assume Chicago would also add the rest of the competitive Van Lier/Sloan squad -- team scoring leaders Bob Love and Chet Walker plus Tom Boerwinkle at C, but that they play only light reserve minutes. Chicago could be better than the next level teams if Gilmore was the ABA version but for whatever reason, while incredibly efficient in Chicago, he was also much more passive defensively (knees?). This team isn't missing for fire and defense though with Van Lier, Sloan and Oakley and if Gilmore and Deng catch that fire, it could be very good. The trouble is that they have zero outside shooting unless Gordon is out there (Love and Boerwinkle actually played outside on those teams). Deng probably isn’t a good choice, Love (25ppg and All-D team) or even Gordon would be better with Sloan able to slide to SF if needed.


This leaves three teams competing at the top level – the Warriors, the Pistons, and the Rockets, probably in that order.
-- Houston would be brutal inside with Malone and Hayes both great rebounders and physical players, plus Yao as well! That tandem also is very talented offensively though neither passes well but you are relying on Tracy McGrady outside and he is fragile and seems to need to be the main man to have the team play well around him for some reason. Battier brings zero to the offensive end, but as Bruce Bowen in SA has shown,
that isn’t always a killer, and Lucas is an excellent fit if he can keep his nose clean. I don’t remember when the coke problems started but they mess up team chemistry.

1. Warriors - The best center rotation in the game, and both players are versatile. Add Run TMC and this spot belongs to the Warriors.
2. Pistons - to me they are higher up than Houston. Though their depth may be lacking a bit, the versatility of the starting lineup is a killer for any opposition.
3. Houston's big men are insane
4. Denver's team lacks versatility in the starting lineup. Most players are great on one end of the floor and not so great on the other. It makes for exploitable weaknesses, but the construction is great and it's a very competitive team.
5. Sacr-dammit, Chicago. I still think that A Train can bring it, and Sloan's defense rounds out a good team.
6. Dallas - as mentioned before, Tarpley is undependable. Kidd's prime was not in Dallas (4 TO's a game his second season), but Nowitzki is great.
7. Toronto - To me it's close between Miami and Toronto, but Toronto takes this spot, because the players on this roster are arguably their best as Raptors.
8. Miami - The inside is weakest for this team.

[All In The Name]

1. Golden State: Wilt and shooters is pretty damn tough to beat.
2. Houston: Moses, Hayes, McGrady is a devastating offensive trio.
3. Sacramento: I think this team would be great offensively, and The Big O might be the second best player in this league.
4. Detroit: This team has a lot of talent and fits really well together.
5. Denver: This team is great defensively at the 4/5 and has a lot of offensive at the wing positions.
6. Dallas: I'm just not sure this team has enough talent outside of Dirk.
7. Chicago: A lot of great defenders but not enough shooters.
8. Toronto: Bosh-Carter is a nice duo, but this team hasn't been around long enough to have the overall talent and depth of the others.