NBA/ABA Decades League Playoffs: Semifinals

[All In The Name]

Bracket 1:

CellarDoor vs. TMACFORMVP

Bracket 2:

All In The Name vs. Miller4ever

[All In The Name]

PG: Walt Frazier (40) / Dana Barros (8)
SG: Sidney Moncrief (34) / Lou Hudson (14)
SF: Lou Hudson (11) / Peja Stojakovic (27) / Dennis Rodman (10)
PF: Dennis Rodman (26) / Rasheed Wallace (22)
C : Shaquille O'Neal (40) / Rasheed Wallace (8)

vs.

Jason Kidd(36)/Don Buse(12)
Tracy McGrady(36)/Dan Majerle(12)
Paul Pressey(30)/Alex English(18)
Nate Thurmond(24)/Dan Roundfield(24)
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar(36)/Nate Thurmond(12)

Shaq is the best player in this series, plain and simple. While that alone does not dictate the winning team, it certainly doesn't hurt my chances. Now, on the surface, this may seem like an outlandish claim. Kareem and Shaq both had outstanding peaks, and while it's arguable as to whose was better, I don't think there's any way you could really say one player would clearly win the matchup. The thing is, the Kareem in this series is not at his peak. My opponent chose the 1978-79 season for Kareem. Kareem averaged 23.8 PPG and 12.8 RPG that season, great numbers for most players but not for Abdul-Jabbar. In fact, that was his lowest scoring average in his first 13 seasons and his lowest rebounding average in his first 10 seasons. Furthermore, Kareem's Lakers were eliminated in the second round of the playoffs that season, and he wasn't even named 1st Team All-NBA. I'm assuming Miller4ever chose this season in large part due to this being one of his best passing seasons, but 1978-79 does not rank among Kareem's overall top seasons.

This is an oversimplification, but peak Shaq against peak Kareem would most likely be a draw; neither could really stop the other. Shaq's brute strength and power offensively would be too much for Kareem to handle; Shaq could prevent Kareem from getting position down low, but he couldn't really bother the sky-hook. Both were also excellent passers. But, again, '79 Kareem is not peak Kareem. For a guy of his caliber, you'd expect him to average closer to 30 PPG than 20. Sure, you can still run an offense through him, but 1978-79 Kareem is simply not a top-flight ATL number 1 scoring option. I expect Shaq to win this epic matchup. With the selected seasons, Shaq is as good as or better than Kareem in nearly every aspect of the game, from scoring to rebounding to passing. I also consider '00 Shaq to be on '79 Kareem's level defensively (remember, Shaq was second in DPOY voting that season), but I won't argue if someone wants to give Kareem a slight edge. Really, Kareem's only definite advantage is free-throw shooting, but Shaq is clearly a better scorer and slightly better at many other things (statistically, at least).

This brings me to my next point. Miller4ever's team is going to have a lot of trouble scoring in this series. My top 5 guys, minutes-wise, are Shaq, Walt Frazier, Rodman, Moncrief, and Rasheed Wallace. I have one of the few teams that can legitimately slow down an ATL lineup. Additionally, relatively speaking, my opponent's team is lacking in scoring options. As mentioned, Kareem's volume scoring in '79 left something to be desired. So while Kareem and '03 TMac might typically be considered a great ATL 1-2 scoring punch, they're only mediocre in this case (especially since the roles are reversed, and it's TMac now as the number 1 scorer). Still, that alone is not crippling. It's the options past them that really hurt my opponent. Consider his other players getting 20+ minutes per game: Jason Kidd, Paul Pressey, Nate Thurmond, and Dan Roundfield. Only Thurmond averaged more than 18 PPG, and he did it on 41.1% shooting in a season in which he missed 31 games. Yes, players shot lower percentages back then, but Thurmond was 123rd out of 157 eligible players that year in FG%. He's not a good third option in an ATL, especially when playing 2/3 of his minutes at a position he's less effective at. My opponent cannot count on a third guy to shoulder some of the scoring load on a nightly basis, a significant issue when his top two options aren't spectacular.

We also feel we can do a great job guarding McGrady. Like our last series against an even more talented shooting guard, we will primarily use Moncrief to guard him, but will also throw some different looks at him from time to time. He did have an amazing season in '03, but his playoff record is well-documented (nice stats, but never made it past round1 and came up short in some key situations). In this particular season, he shot 36.1% in his last three playoff games while his Magic blew a 3-1 lead. In short, '03 TMac is too good a player to be shut down offensively, but he's not quite on the top-tier of wings. His play-making ability will almost always be there, but our tenacious D should lower McGrady's efficiency. This puts a lot of pressure on Kareem to score, which, as noted, he'll have a tougher time doing than usual.

A similar argument can be made for Frazier guarding Kidd. Kidd will obviously have an impact, but Frazier will make any point guard play worse than usual. Also, we don't think Kidd will be able to exploit our defense in the one possible area it might have some trouble with. We don't think our pick-and-roll defense will be poor, but, comparatively, it is probably our weakest area defensively (when Shaq is a part of it). We can defend the screener just fine, but we may occasionally leave the ball-handler open for a jumper (again, though, this isn't a major concern, because our main perimeter players are all-time greats defensively). But this does not play into our opponent's strengths. Kidd is great at running the pick-and-roll, but it's moreso because of his passing than his shooting. He has worked hard to become a respectable 3-point shooter with his feet set, but he's never had a good jump shot off the dribble.

Aside from the three players talked about, we're really not concerned with any of our opponent's guys going off on us. Paul Pressey is a point forward, but it's unlikely that he'll be able to utilize that ability too often on most ATL teams, especially one that also has Kidd, McGrady, and Kareem running the offense. And Pressey is not a good scorer or shooter who can play well off-ball.

As mentioned, Thurmond is an inefficient scorer playing out of position. Roundfield is in there for his defense and rebounding, Buse for his defense.

We don't think that any of these guys fit well offensively with Miller4ever's trio of Kidd/TMac/Kareem. The only other players who we see fitting in (Majerle and English) just aren't getting much playing time, and we'll put Rodman on English whenever possible.

Offensively, our scheme will be the similar to the first two rounds (feed the ball to Shaq in the post early and often, Frazier and Moncrief will have a lot of playmaking duties). The main difference in this series is that we've significantly increased Peja's minutes. As good a defender as Kareem is, we don't think that anyone can do much 1-on-1 against '00 Shaq. With Peja (who finished second in MVP voting and had an unbelievable shooting season), Rasheed, and Lou Hudson all seeing a lot of playing time, and Dana Barros getting spot minutes, there will almost always be one, if not two, three-point threats on the floor at all times. Thurmond will have to guard Rasheed at times, and he should have a very tough time closing out on him.

My opponent has a sound defense with no major flaws, but we like our chances with Shaq posting up and three-point shooters around him, and our guards both being efficient 20+ PPG guys who can also create for others.

We also are confident in our rebounding in any series, with Rodman being one of the best ever, Shaq being great in that department, and Frazier being an awesome rebounder for a PG. My opponent does have some really nice rebounders, but I have the guys to never be at much of a disadvantage there, if at all.

With better scoring options, superior defense, and the best player in the series, we believe we have what it takes to win an extremely competitive series.

Thanks to the judges and Miller4ever.

[Miller4ever]

The Really Really REALLY Serious Guys vs. All in the Name's "team"

Jason Kidd(36)/Don Buse(12)
Tracy McGrady(36)/Dan Majerle(12)
Paul Pressey(30)/Alex English(18)
Nate Thurmond(24)/Dan Roundfield(24)
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar(36)/Nate Thurmond(12)

The "Formulas":

BETTER REBOUNDING + BETTER DEFENSE = MORE POSSESSIONS

BETTER PASSING + BETTER SPACING = MORE EFFICIENT OFFENSE

MORE POSSESSIONS + MORE EFFICIENT OFFENSE = MORE POINTS THAN OPPONENT

The explanations:

BETTER REBOUNDING

Thurmond, who is a precursor to all the Ben Wallace/Dwight Howard/Dennis Rodman types, averages more rebounds than his counterpart and also has 3-4 inches on Rodman. While Kidd, Kareem, and Pressey are on even rebounding and height with their marks, McGrady enjoys a 5-inch advantage at SG. Off the bench, my primary backup big Roundfield bests the backup bigs my opponent has (Ratliff and Rasheed can't really hang with single-digit rebounds, and Daugherty won't see much action).

BETTER DEFENSE

Just by looking at the rosters, I can see someone picking All in the Name's defense over mine, but I truly believe that my defense will best his in the current matchup. First, we are more balanced on defense. There are no gaping holes. At the point of attack, Kidd and Buse can both hawk the ball and lock down their man. T-Mac may not be first rate, but he's got the length and athleticism to stick to his man, and Paul Pressey is no slouch himself. Thurmond has the luxury of guarding Dennis Rodman, and can more than handle Rasheed Wallace. Kareem is one of the few centers all-time who can match up against a prime Shaq. With lack of spacing (Shaq and Rodman have smaller ranges than their counterparts, as do Frazier, Moncrief, and Hudson) my team is in better position to stop penetration and can clog up the smaller passing lanes. Shaq will be doubled, but without a 3-point shooter to pass out to, the entire team's effectiveness is reduced. If my opponent adds spacing in the form of Barros, Stojakovic, and Sheed, he does so at the cost of defense. My opponent, even with Moncrief, will have difficulty covering all of the swingmen that I have. Hudson and Stojakovic won't be able to bottle up English and T-Mac, and Majerle and Pressey are both efficient and can take advantage of a hole in the defense. Add to the fact that, even though Kareem won't be able to cover Shaq all alone, Shaq also can't guard Kareem all alone. Given the fastbreak threat of my team and the pick-and-roll game of Kidd and Thurmond, Shaq's effectiveness as an interior presence is decreased significantly.

The second point I wanted to touch upon was the playmaking ability of my defense. Thurmond and Kareem are both excellent swatters with the ability to pick the pockets of opposing bigs, and my bench has Don Buse and Alex English, who both excelled in creating turnovers. Kidd, T-Mac, and Pressey make plays in the passing lanes, which lead to the fastbreaks this team will ride to victory.

BETTER PASSING

My team has vastly superior distribution from top to bottom, and off the bench. Kidd and Buse have both led in assists (and in Buse's case, both the ABA one year and the NBA the next). Frazier is a great distributor himself, but cannot match either of my point guards in this respect, even at 8.2 APG. Barros is a good PG also, but Buse trumps him. Moncrief has had better passing seasons than the one selected, but even his best unselected season isn't as good as the selected season I have chosen for T-Mac. Pressey gets twice the assists that Hudson gets, and Thurmond is better than Rodman. As good as Shaq is, he doesn't compare to Kareem. Alex English and Dan Majerle are better than Rasheed and Stojakovic. Ratliff and Daugherty combined can't touch Sam Lacey alone.

BETTER SPACING

My team may not be stocked full of sharpshooters, but here's a breakdown:

Respectable (.300+) 3P range
Kidd(36)
McGrady(36)
Buse(12)
Majerle(12)

vs.

Barros(12)
Stojakovic(30)
Rasheed(30)

I could put Pressey here because he was 7-20, but I won't. I understand that his players shoot better percentages, but this is about spacing, which is about whether or not there is or isn't a 3-point threat, not how dangerous it is. I'm being generous with my opponent's minutes, but even then, I have more spacers on the court for longer.

Respectable Midrange (Limited to bigs, based on reputation)

Thurmond (36)
Kareem (36)
Roundfield (24)

vs.

Rasheed (30)
Ratliff (12)
Daugherty (12)

Ratliff and Daugherty totally aren't going to play that many minutes. Of course, Thurmond isn't THAT good from midrange, but it'd be a mistake not to step out on him. Same case here. I have the spacing for more time.

One more point about the spacing is that my movement without the ball is much better. When Kareem and Nate set the picks and Shaq has to defend one of the rollers, it benefits me. T-Mac once again finds a way around the defensive lockdown by being a star who plays off the ball. Overall, the combination of pure range and movement will make the defense's job a lot harder.

OTHER POINTS

Shaquille O'Neal will be doubled by Thurmond as long as Rodman is playing PF. Rotating will be easier for my players because of the somewhat limited spacing my opponent possesses. Kareem will finesse Shaq in their one-on-ones. Rodman is a great cleanup man, but Thurmond has more size and comparable athleticism to Rodman, and has just as much hustle. Thurmond is the quintessential energy big to play off of the main scoring C, the predecessor to the less balanced Rodman. The battle inside goes to me.

Now, some people may look at my team and think that the second banana scoring-wise is Tracy McGrady. McGrady with his off-the-ball play and height advantage can present a challenge to Moncrief, but Pressey will step up in this situation like he does whenever he has to. Pressey was great deferring to Moncrief, but could ramp it up when called upon. He was a triple-double threat even from his secondary role. Against Lou Hudson and Peja, he'll have more opportunities to shine.

Overall, my opponent has selected many players that are unbalanced. With Lou Hudson and Stojakovic, you can exploit their lack of defense. Rodman's lack of offense can be exploited.

Kidd, McGrady, Pressey, Thurmond, and Kareem are all players who can run, trail, dish, and finish on fastbreaks. We can run the opponent ragged, and in the half-court we can space the floor and score just as efficiently with pick-and-rolls and Kareem's sky-hook, cleaned up by Nate Thurmond. Every one in my starting lineup is a triple-double threat.

[CellarDoor]

Can't believe this is the first time TMAC and I have squared off.

Best of luck to those in the other bracket.
Apologies for the late write-up guys. You'd think my spring break would be EASIER to do this in...apparently not.

I'd like to echo TMAC's opening comments: it's a great pleasure to face him. We're very similar in these things, and AITN's idea has forced us both outside our box. Oddly, we both trended in a similar direction still . I feel like TMAC's team is fantastically built and has A LOT of talent; however, I feel like my team matches up as well as any.

Rotation:
Payton(40)/Bowen or Aguirre(8)
VC(36)Bowen or Aguirre (12)
Bird(40)/Hawkins(8)
Hawkins(17)/Williams(31)
Lanier(36)/Sabonis(12)

The PG Match-up:
TMAC feels he wins this match-up, I feel he's wrong, to say the least. I'd like to make sure everything keeps a few things in mind here. Jason Kidd is nothing at all like CP3. He excels in the post and has a lot of size himself, and AI was playing SG at that point. I'll be honest: it's possible GP was playing him since he often took the better guard (Jordan in the POs, etc), but I can't confirm or deny that Payton saw the most time on AI.

What I can confirm is that it's exceedingly obvious CP3 doesn't have the size to stick with anyone in the post and is generally bothered by big guards. Deron Williams owns him. Every. Game. Every. Year.
Chauncey Billups made him his personal female dog last year in the 1st round as well. Billups is about as close offensively to GP as you get in todays game, but more physical. Further, CP3 can't hide defensively in Dhantay Jones this time. He's only got VC for a large portion of the time. The PG match-up is NOT going to be pretty.

SG: MRR is an excellent defender. One who's even used to defending 2s. While I think his reputation is a little trumped up in a Larry Hughesesque way (high steal numbers wowing the voters), he's still undoubtedly very good. He's also facing the likes he's never seen (except young Jordan, and i'm not sure if he was guarding him or not. And BBR doesn't have game logs those years). VC has one of the best first steps I've ever seen and is in a class of athleticism few can even imagine. His selected year he was both a ferocious finishers and a great shooter. With the passing prowess of my post options (Lanier, Payton, Bird) he's going to be cutting to the basket a lot and in spaces MRR simply can't get to. And if MRR tries to help Paul, Barry etc, he's leaving open a prolific 3pt shooter. MRR should limit VC some, but not terribly, and I think it's fair to say he'll "win" the match-up. When Ray is in the game, they'll likely score pretty easily on one another. I'm not going to assume VC will get through every screen, but without the weight of the team in his back, he should keep up on a lot of them.

SF: Bird and Barry. Not a lot to say here, everyone knows what they're about. I feel like Barry gets underrated. He's a prolific scorer to say the least. The one thing I question is if Barry and Paul are going to be to keep Hakeem getting enough touches while also getting (or trying to in CP3's case) their own. Bird will be able to score at will. No one's going to stop him, especially not Barry in the post. Barry's a nice ballhawk, but that's more on the perimeter. I expect Bird to have a HUGE series, and Barry to obviously get outplayed, but still play very well.

PF: I've always liked the contrasting styles of Lucas and Buck. I think those two both bring something interesting to the game. Hawkins sees a lot of his time here (including being a starter) and will likely have Lucas for lunch offensively when he gets his ISOs or cutting to the basket. Alternatively, Lucas will get his with his ridiculous jumper and putbacks. I expect Lucas to win the rebounding battle by a magnitude of about what Bird/Hawk win the SF one by, and offensively neither to be world beaters, not because they can't be, but because they're not getting touches.

C: This, along with the PG match-up are the most important. We all pretty much know how the SF and SG battles will go. I feel like the PF match-up is understood by both of us as well. In short, Hakeem is ridiculous in his prime. He ate every C alive he faced; however, I think Lanier will fare alright here. First, I'd like to note that Lanier actually holds the better rebounding numbers in their selected years in the regular season AND the playoffs. This is no small feat given there wasn't a whole lot of rebounding on Hakeem's team and most of the time the 1-3 positions were nowhere near the offensive glass for Hakeem. Lanier was also incredibly strong. Ridiculously so in fact. He's not going to get overpowered by any stretch of the imagination. I take issue with TMAC's assessment of Lanier in comparison to Ewing. So does True LA Fan. I think he was every bit the defender Ewing was. Given that, I'd like you to look at Hakeem's offensive impact in the finals in his selected year:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... elog/1994/
26.8ppg, 9.1rpg, 3.6topg
He also shot under 50% in four games, including the final game. I feel like we're as well equipped to limit hakeem as anyone. TMAC's going to win this match-up, but I don't think it's enough to sway the series back in his favor.

General offensive points:
We'll be running the inverted offense keeping Hakeem out of the paint with Lanier's range. Even if you grant TMAC's point that he's no prolific from there, which I disagree with, if he leaves him open he's killing himself. Bird and Payton will be the main cogs controlling the post with Lanier spread out and Carter either spacing with Lanier or cutting with Hawkins. We'll give Lanier a few touches in the paint each quarter as well and if it looks like he's hot, we'll increase them.

General defensive points: if Hakeem just looks to be absolutely crazy hot, we'll be helping off MRR with VC or Bird, who will see limited time on him when Bowens in with Barry.

Rotation notes:
Who the minutes go to (Aguirre or Bowen) will defend on who's on the court when my guys leave the floor.

[penbeast0]

no other writeups?

[Miller4ever]

AitN said he'd get his up, and TMAC said he was swamped. Dunno about Cellar.

[Snakebites]

I will unofficially declare Miller the winner if no additional writeups are put up soon.

There, that ought to light some fire under their asses.

[SamBone]

I also vote for Miller to be crowned the champ!

I alowill post mt team if nobody wants to play

[All In The Name]

I will not post a rebuttal; I feel like anything more on my part would just be overkill.

[Miller4ever]

Just need to point out one thing.

My team runs better as a unit than AitN's. Scoring isn't an issue when you create turnovers and go on fastbreaks with 7'2" Kareem running way ahead of Shaq and Jason Kidd at the controls. Also, this may seem silly, but it really isn't with Jason Kidd, T-Mac, Nate, and Kareem. Alley-oops are a viable offensive option. Moncrief cannot nullify T-Mac when he elevates.

[TMACFORMVP]

I'm just going to post what I got, have to do some stuff tonight.

Cellar, you've built a fantastic team, and it's always a pleasure to face one of the most educated posters on this board. I've always felt we thought similarly in terms of the mold for our perfect team. Normally starting with defense, and ending with defense (ironically, both of our current teams aren't the defensive caliber teams we usually tend to build). Overall, should be a great matchup, and may the best team win. Of course, which I FULLY intend to do so.

P.S. As I did mention, we have faced off before, just not in ATL. It was in the second round of the keeper league. viewtopic.php?f=64&t=871077&start=15

I expect a similar result.

- Paul has the edge over GP

I'd like to start that I feel Paul will get the best out of Payton in this matchup. Not only because Paul is the better individual player, but I'm beginning to believe Payton is getting overrated in these competitions. Defensively, he's fantastic, but overall he's never done much to affect the top PG's in the game. I noticed the season Cellar chose for him was 97-98, but truly, he had a similar comparable elite play for roughly nine seasons.

Jason Kidd (96-99)

Code: Select all

22 P / 8 R / 8 A on 9-24 from the field. 1-7 from three.
36 P / 9 R / 8 A on on 14-22 from the field. 5-8 from three.
12 P / 7 R / 15 A on 4-9 from the field. 2-5 from three.
19 P / 7 R / 16 A on 7-13 from the field. 1-2 from three.
11 P / 5 R / 8 A on 4-9 from the field. 2-4 from three.
5 P / 8 R / 13 A on 2-13 from the field. 0-4 from three.
6 P / 2 R / 14 A on 2-7 from the field. 0-2 from three.
12 P / 5 R / 9 A on 5-12 from the field. 1-5 from three.
7 P / 7 R / 19 A on 2-10 from the field. 0-2 from three.
30 P / 7 R / 10 A on 11-19 from the field. 4-4 from three.
15 P / 4 R / 11 A on 4-16 from the field. 1-6 from three.
25 P/ 7 R / 14 A on 10-18 from the field. 4-5 from three.

(12 GAME SAMPLE SIZE)

16.6 PPG / 6.3 RPG / 12.0 APG on .430 FG% and .388 from three.


Allen Iverson (97-02)

Code: Select all

23 P / 5 R / 10 A on 10-16 from the field.
8 P / 4 R / 3A on 3-9 from the field.
14 R / 4 R / 5A on 4-13 from the field.
37 P / 9 R / 3 A on 14-29 from the field.
34 P / 6 R / 6A on 12-30 from the field.
41 P / 3 R / 2 A on 15-30 from the field.
22 P / 3 R / 3 A on 8-21 from the field.
38 P / 3 R / 3 A on 14-25 from the field.

(8 GAME SAMPLE SIZE)

27.1 PPG / 4.6 RPG / 4.3 APG on .462 from the field. ONLY 2.6 turnovers.

I tried to incorporate different types of players. Obviously neither are Paul, but I feel he brings a comparable passing angle that Kidd did, while the "little man," feel, able to take over a game offensively (though not to that volume, but that comes with greater efficiency) from Iverson. And it's clearly evident from those sample sizes, whether the PG was big, or small, they not only had moderate success against Payton's prowess defensively, but they were even BETTER. And this is in a comparison with two very inefficient guards of this era. Paul on the other hand is nearly 50% from the floor, and 37% from distance.

And if GP doesn't affect Paul's game, then there's no advantage elsewhere for GP. Paul is the clearly better, and more efficient scorer, a vastly better play-maker/passer, and an overall more sound/dominant player. I mean look at it this way, Paul dishes out nearly four assists more, but STILL averages less turnovers in their chosen seasons. Paul scores at a higher volume, nearly 4-5% better from the field, and even 3% better from distance. He's even more dangerous in the passing lanes, averaging half a steal more, and not only is a better FT shooter, but gets to the line more as well.

We look at it now, and think GP is one of the best to have ever played. But he hasn't slowed down his modern day contemporaries, and in few seasons, Paul should be able to establish himself as one of the greatest PG's to have ever played the game, and better than Paul. When we're talking about one year peak, it's arguable he's only behind Magic, and Oscar in terms of dominance and perfection at the PG position.

And as much talked about GP's post game was, Payton was a guy that's led the league in three point attempts for one season and is a career sub 4 FTA attempt player. In fact, he only got to the line over five times twice in his career, and that's not one the chosen seasons. In his chosen season, he took nearly 31% of his shots from distance. For comparison sake, I chose a random season from Jamal Crawford when he was on the Knicks, and he took 36% of his shots from three, and he was considered the ultimate chucker. Sure he could play in the post, and will be a concern for Paul defensively, but considering he was a inefficient shooter from mid-range, didn't get to the line at a high rate, and wasn't particularly efficient from there either we'd take our chances with the help defense of Hakeem, and increased role of Nance.

In short Payton will get his (not the most efficient for his volume as a sub 20 PPG scorer), but Paul will get his too. And if that's the case, Paul has a definite edge in this matchup.

- Hakeem will DOMINATE this matchup

On one side is Hakeem Olajuwon, the other side is Bob Lanier. I respect Lanier, and like what he brought to the game, but in this matchup, he doesn't have the edge in any aspect of the game. We've heard of his range, even some have gone as far as saying he was just as proficient as Ewing from mid-range. I don't buy the racism argument since Lanier never could have been MVP since his team success was rather poor. In fact, during his prime in which he averaged at least twenty points, he's been on multiple 20-35 win teams, and often was ousted in the first round, a successful season being the second round.

But regardless, I'd consider him like this. A player with nice size, could play physically on the inside, getting overrated with his spacing so far in this competition (he was good, but not one of those centers anyone should use primarily as a big man that will space the floor), with solid rebounding and defensive skills. In any era, he's a very good center, in an all time, he's a solid center. Let's say offensively, he compares to Ewing, but worse defensively. Again not because he was a poor defender, but the centers in the 90's in which Hakeem faced were just better defensively, such as the aforementioned Ewing, and of course David Robinson. Both players, who were better defensively, and were just as proficient if not likely better faceup/mid-range and post games. Hakeem faced both of these centers, and took their virginity, facing a lesser center, I'd expect more of the same (just because it's hard to get better).

Patrick Ewing vs. Hakeem (1994 NBA Finals - 7 GAMES):
18.4 points per game, on .363 from the field; 58-160 from (Hakeem averaged 30/9 on 50%)

vs. David Robinson (1995 NBA WCF - 6 GAMES):
35.0 PPG, 12.5 RPG, 5.0 APG, 3.8 BPG on .566% from the field

Lanier won't do anything to affect Hakeem's game. Moses once called Hakeem the strongest player he's ever played against. Hakeem will use that strength, finesse game, and overall ability to score at will - especially this Hakeem, in his one year peak, in a playoff format.

28.9 PPG, 11.0 RPG, 4.3 APG, 4.0 BPG, 1.7 SPG on .519 from the field.

Defensively, seeing what he did to the likes of Ewing, we're confident that Lanier's production will take a reasonable drop as well.

- Perimeter Defense; Who To Defend Bird, but Who to Defend Barry?

Look, we won't stop Bird, he'll get his, even if we were to put Artest on him for longer stretches, he'll get his as well. But, the same will apply to Rick Barry, and nearly to the same extent offensively.

I mean we're talking about a guy, in a competition only considering one year peak that averaged:

30.6 PPG , 5.7 RPG, 6.2 APG, and a league leading 2.9 SPG while leading the underdog Golden State Warriors to an NBA championship. A SWEEP nonetheless too. That's one of the greatest seasons of all time. Bird was better, but neither were anything to write home about defensively, and comparable in the amount of points both were able to put on the board. Keep in mind, if Bird is guarding Barry (there's not many other options better on my opponents team) that because of his lateral quickness, the Celtics often cross matched defensively putting Bird on the PF, while McHale would cover the SF.

Some might be speculative about the MRR, and Carter matchup. I like it, I don't think VC has that consistent motor to stay with Richardson when he's on the floor, while Richardson honestly doesn't give up that much height. He'll have the obvious quickness to stay with Carter on his drives, and the role he plays comes into question. With Payton likely trying to play Paul in the post, Bird being the catalyst of the offense, and the judging from previous rounds would show Lanier having a large role on this team, both as a floor spacer, and post threat. If that's the case, Carter seems to be that finisher in the break, and spot up three point shooter. Then we can limit the break with rebounding, superior PG play, and by far the best post player in this competition.

Carter wasn't a type to really come off screens, so we trust MRR would be able to stay on him, and use his quick hands to get into the passing lanes. Much like with Barry, Paul, and Olajuwon also all being elite ball thieves. He'll still be able to get his points, but once again, on the other end of the spectrum, he wasn't a terrific defender either, in which he'd be giving up points as well. MRR is too quick, and when Allen comes off the bench, he'll play the SAME exact role Carter does on our respective teams, but in that regard, Allen would have the considerable edge. Since he's a better shooter, and most importantly much better at spotting up, and coming off screens for the open shot.

We both boast elite perimeter defenders off the bench, in Bowen for Cellar, and Artest for myself. I'd assume, both would be played on our SF's, as they're the most dangerous perimeter scorers in this competition. And in this case, it's pretty much the same, Barry would have to work harder with Bowen, but ultimately would experience the same amount of success. And on the other end of spectrum Artest would make Bird work harder (as he's a DPOY), but Bird will still be able to get his.

Bottom line, long story short, Bird will have a large series, but the same can be said for Barry, and all the other perimeter players in this game. And I don't think Bird's play will be enough to outweigh the lack of perimeter defense on Cellar's side, and overall disadvantage in the matchup at PG, and especially the C position.


- Rebounding Advantage

I'd love to do a deep statistical analysis of this, including adjusted pace numbers and such (in fact, I did, but feel there are more factors). But in general, I feel we can take control of the boards in this series. Lanier was a very good rebounder, as was Hakeem, considering them equals, it's obvious we have the edge on the PF position in Lucas. Hawkins, and Buck are great rebounders, but pace adjust whatever, Lucas still comes out on top and by a considerable margin. Bird certainly makes up for some of that edge, as does Payton. But we have the edge with Richardson/Allen/Artest at the SG position compared to VC. Overall it's comparable, but in this case, we like our frontcourt more.

Code: Select all

Hakeem Olajuwon – 11.9 rebounds / 82.1 shot attempts - 13.78 rebounds
Jerry Lucas – 19.0 rebounds / 95.9 shot attempts - 18.82 rebounds
Rick Barry – 5.7 rebounds / 97.3 shot attempts - 5.50 rebounds
Micheal Ray Richardson – 6.9 shot attempts/ 88.4 shot attempts - 7.40 rebounds
(Ray Allen) – 5.2 rebounds / 82.9 shot attempts - 5.95 rebounds
Chris Paul – 4.0 rebounds / 82.8 shot attempts - 4.58 rebounds
Ron Artest – 5.3 rebounds / 77.0 shot attempts - 6.53 rebounds
Larry Nance – 8.3 rebounds / 85.6 shot attempts - 9.21 rebounds
Jermaine O'neal - 10.3 rebounds - 80.5 shot attempts - 12.1 rebounds

TOTAL: 83.8 REBOUNDS

Code: Select all

Bob Lanier – 13.3 rebounds / 91.6 shot attempts - 13.79 rebounds
Connie Hawkins – 13.5 rebounds / 96.5 shot attempts - 13.29 rebounds
(Buck Williams) – 12.3 rebounds / 90.7 shot attempts - 12.88 rebounds
Larry Bird – 10.1 rebounds / 88.2 shot attempts - 10.80 rebounds
Vince Carter – 5.5 rebounds / 85.0 shot attempts - 6.10 rebounds
Gary Payton – 4.6 rebounds / 78.7 shot attempts - 5.55 rebounds
Bruce Bowen – 2.9 rebounds / 76.79 shot attempts - 3.58 rebounds
Kirk Hinrich - 3.4 rebounds - 81.2 shot attempts - 3.9 rebounds
Aryvdas Sabonis - 8.1 rebounds - 81.5 shot attempts -9.4 rebounds (*11.8 rebounds)


TOTAL: 79.29 | 81.69 REBOUNDS

*Note the asterisk for Sabonis is me being generous, and bumping his regular season average of minutes from 23.8 minutes per game to a more reasonable 30 rebounds for a better estimate.

Honestly, I don't think this is the most accurate way of calculating rebounding, as there's a variety of other factors I could do, but I'm sort of lazy, and this shows I have the edge, so I'm going to go with that.


Other

- Better PG play, better post option to run offense through, and adequate wing play-making as well. Our ability to find the pass is greater, thus our execution down the stretch is more flexible and versatile if one of our options were to be taken away. Not too mention, a closing sort of lineup with Allen, Barry, and Lucas with Paul as the initiator, and Hakeem in the post does not statistically turn the ball over as well.

- We feel our bench provides similar things, such as a defensive stopper, but ours not being to the extent offensively limited as Bowen. Then with Nance/JO being comparable to Buck/Sabonis, and I feel our backup PG play (with Richardson), and Allen being the best player coming off the bench, we definitely feel we have more versatility, and effectiveness coming off the bench.

BEST of luck Cellar.

[TMACFORMVP]

Rebuttal

TMAC feels he wins this match-up, I feel he's wrong, to say the least. I'd like to make sure everything keeps a few things in mind here. Jason Kidd is nothing at all like CP3.

To be fair, CP3 is also a much more dangerous scorer. The point towards posting was moreso that Payton did absolutely nothing to affect his passing ability. I mean, a prime Jason Kidd was a poor shooter as well, and against Payton he looked like Billups shooting wise. Whether he's like CP3 or not, for a guy with the defensive prowess GP has, I'd have expected Kidd's statistics to at least take a hit, not increase all across the board.

He excels in the post and has a lot of size himself, and AI was playing SG at that point. I'll be honest: it's possible GP was playing him since he often took the better guard (Jordan in the POs, etc), but I can't confirm or deny that Payton saw the most time on AI.

I don't know why GP wouldn't have guarded Iverson. As you mention he often took the best scorer, and there was no exception facing those Sixers teams. Either way it would look bad, if GP didn't cover Iverson, there would have to be a reason. Possibly because, he was too quick to cover him? If that's the case, he'd be facing Paul in this matchup, an equally lighting quick change of pace guard. But in reality, GP likely covered Iverson, and AI not only played well, but just like Kidd, his statistics rose as well. If Iverson had shot 46%, averaged 27/4/4, and only 2.6 turnovers, he'd have been picked in this competition.

Defensively, GP won't do all that much to affect CP3, he never did against other contemporary guards he faced in this era.

What I can confirm is that it's exceedingly obvious CP3 doesn't have the size to stick with anyone in the post and is generally bothered by big guards. Deron Williams owns him. Every. Game. Every. Year.

Eh, it's more CP3 playing poorly offensively than Deron truly killing him. In fact, their head to head matchups, Deron shoots well, but his volume is rather low, 16 points and 8 assists for their career. And it's not been everytime, hell their matchup three games ago:

24 points, 5 rebounds, 7 assists on 11-19 shooting.

The matchup before that?

26 points, 2 rebounds, 7 assists on 10-18 shooting. BTW, Deron in that game had 8 points, 8 assists on 3-8 shooting. The game before that, while Paul struggled, Deron had 4 points on 2-11 SHOOTING.

It clearly hasn't been owned EVERY GAME. Does he get the best of him? Sure, but that's moreso Paul playing poorly himself, than Deron actually using his size to beat CP3.

Chauncey Billups made him his personal female dog last year in the 1st round as well. Billups is about as close offensively to GP as you get in todays game, but more physical.

I don't think they're similar at all, except maybe for the fact they get praised for their post game, when they both don't get to the line a bunch, have low field goal percentages (though Billups compensates with his lights out three point shot), and a large percentage of their shots come from distance. Both of their post games are overrated, so I can definitely see that connection.

And that series, the whole Hornets team was out of sync. Nobody else contributed, and they looked like the worst team in the playoffs. Paul played poorly, and certainly got outplayed, but I don't know how much a deciding factor that is, when the Hornets went into the playoffs with that sort of rough patch, and Paul not playing well. Look at him, against a LARGER Jason Kidd the season I've chosen. He murdered him.

And Billups went 17-25 from three in that series, a large part in his successful series. I guarantee Gary Payton, a 33% shooter from distance wont be doing that.

With the passing prowess of my post options (Lanier, Payton, Bird) he's going to be cutting to the basket a lot and in spaces MRR simply can't get to.

Meaning, he'll be cutting to the basket? When your post options, Bird, Payton, AND Lanier are in the post, Carter, who's never been known as a cutter, would be getting to places MRR can't get to? Why wouldn't MRR be able to get there? He was quicker than VC, and crafty in stepping into the passing lanes.

And if MRR tries to help Paul, Barry etc, he's leaving open a prolific 3pt shooter. MRR should limit VC some, but not terribly, and I think it's fair to say he'll "win" the match-up. When Ray is in the game, they'll likely score pretty easily on one another. I'm not going to assume VC will get through every screen, but without the weight of the team in his back, he should keep up on a lot of them.

Eh, I don't think Carter is that sort of player, with that mindset. If he had a lesser burden, he'd be relieved, and happily resort to being the "spot up," shooter for the team. Allen isn't just any player that came off screens, he with Reggie are the greatest of all time in that regard. And with VC/Allen having the same roles essentially, I'd expect Allen to get the best out of that matchup, even if individually he's not the better player per se.

Bird will be able to score at will. No one's going to stop him, especially not Barry in the post. Barry's a nice ballhawk, but that's more on the perimeter. I expect Bird to have a HUGE series, and Barry to obviously get outplayed, but still play very well.

I agree with your SF analysis, and not really rebutting, rather reiterating, that Barry will have an absolutely dominant series as well. With Bird covering him, lacking the lateral quickness, Barry will get to the rim, or use his craftiness to score at will. Again, in one year peak, he's a 30/6/6 player that led his team to the championship. It's hard to truly have a much better season than that, especially since Bird wasn't a particularly great man defender.

PF: I've always liked the contrasting styles of Lucas and Buck. I think those two both bring something interesting to the game. Hawkins sees a lot of his time here (including being a starter) and will likely have Lucas for lunch offensively when he gets his ISOs or cutting to the basket. Alternatively, Lucas will get his with his ridiculous jumper and putbacks. I expect Lucas to win the rebounding battle by a magnitude of about what Bird/Hawk win the SF one by, and offensively neither to be world beaters, not because they can't be, but because they're not getting touches.

I feel this kinda contradicts eachother. Hawkins will see a lot of time, and apparently dominate offensively. But when Buck is in, playing the same position, essentially that sort of role, it's conceded he wouldn't have much touches. Wouldn't Hawkins not have the amount of touches either? And if that's the case, neither are floor spacers (not cutters as stated), then it's easier to help with the PF position in Lucas, who was a very smart team defender. That's where the value of Lucas comes in, you can't do that with him, leave him open, and he'll knock it down.

This also goes into the rebounding factor, Lucas was still an elite rebounder, most likely offensive rebounder as well despite being a perimeter player. He'll take both Cowens, and Buck away from their comfort zone, and thus take them out of rebounding position. Much moreso than what Lanier will "space," the floor against us.

C: This, along with the PG match-up are the most important.

Agreed with this.

I'd like to note that Lanier actually holds the better rebounding numbers in their selected years in the regular season AND the playoffs.

Is this going by the raw numbers, because when we account for pace, it's nearly similar, and no edge towards either player. Lanier isn't the better rebounder.

Lanier was also incredibly strong. Ridiculously so in fact. He's not going to get overpowered by any stretch of the imagination. I take issue with TMAC's assessment of Lanier in comparison to Ewing. So does True LA Fan. I think he was every bit the defender Ewing was.
Given that, I'd like you to look at Hakeem's offensive impact in the finals in his selected year:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... elog/1994/
26.8ppg, 9.1rpg, 3.6topg

That's the greatness of Hakeem Olajuwon, in a series in which that's pointed out to make him look bad. Offensively, he averages 27 points per game on 50% from the floor, while making Ewing his personal female dog on the defensive end. When you factor in both ends of his court impact, he was absolutely devastating. And he did that consistently, to even better players like David Robinson.

And I feel Ewing gets underrated defensively, he anchored those absolutely elite Knicks team, granted they had great personnel, and was a considerably better shotblocker on a much slower paced team. Lanier was a good defender, but even if was as good as Ewing, Hakeem dominated the series to a point he was able to make them overcome the Knicks in seven games.

And here's a certain quote, from a certain CellarDoor on a matchup in which he had Bill Laimbeer, and the opponent had Bob Lanier.

"Laimbeer did pretty well with some pretty nice Cs around him himself and was the better rebounder and a tenacious defender. Lanier, while being a better scorer and a slightly better defender is breaking even with Laimbeer."

viewtopic.php?f=340&t=938870#p20591610

Lanier was only a slightly better defender than Laimbeer!

General offensive points:
We'll be running the inverted offense keeping Hakeem out of the paint with Lanier's range. Even if you grant TMAC's point that he's no prolific from there, which I disagree with, if he leaves him open he's killing himself. Even if you grant TMAC's point that he's no prolific from there, which I disagree with, if he leaves him open he's killing himself. Bird and Payton will be the main cogs controlling the post with Lanier spread out and Carter either spacing with Lanier or cutting with Hawkins. We'll give Lanier a few touches in the paint each quarter as well and if it looks like he's hot, we'll increase them.

We won't leave him open, but feel he's getting overrated in this regard as a shooter. With Payton, and Bird noted in this writeup being post players, Lanier is sort of acted upon as a floor spacer with Carter. If that's the case, I don't think he's that type of player.

And besides, Ewing is often considered to be the best jumpshooting center to have ever played. If that's the case, Hakeem in that same finals that was pointed out, Ewing averaged:

18 PPG on 36% from the field.

Hakeem has and will defend Lanier to a point we're not too worried with any sort of offense that's run. And I'm not sure where guys like Hawkins, and Carter will be cutting to the basket all game, when Payton, and Bird are described as post players.

General defensive points: if Hakeem just looks to be absolutely crazy hot, we'll be helping off MRR with VC or Bird, who will see limited time on him when Bowens in with Barry.

What about in the closing lineup? When Allen is in the game? Who stops Hakeem when he's hot, and whom do you leave open? Can't leave Paul, otherwise he'll slice up the defense, same with Barry, and not a chance with Lucas, and Allen. The offense is made to be unstoppable, and that's EXACTLY what it is.

[CellarDoor]

Going to leave most of the rebuttal alone as I feel like I got a chance to address a lot of it by doing my write-up last, your responses are only fair.

--On the Center front, you've repeatedly thrown in Ewing's offensive numbers and alluded to Hakeem limiting Lanier. The problem is Ewing was absent of a 2nd option other than a rather awful John Starks, third option was who, Oakley? He's not able to use his jumpshot when he's getting double teamed the entire game and has Hakeem on him who doesn't have to help off him. Comparing the situations on offense is like comparing apples and oranges, whereas defensively Hakeem faced a very similar player who, for all intents and purposes, limited Hakeem from going absolutely insane. 27ppg is actually a DIP from his ridiculous peak averages (playoffs, that is).
--Also, the rebound numbers were rebound rates, so Lanier does look to have a bit of an edge. Granted not much, but it's something. Neither of them are even their teams' best rebounder though. Those spots are Lucas' and Williams'.
--Regarding VC getting places MRR can't get, I was trying to cleverly allude to him going airborne. Clearly a bad joke though . Also, I know MRR was quick, but young VC was no slouch, I'm not sure i'd give either an advantage in speed.

And the closing line-up has you using Hakeem in the post against a very good defender. If he's anything like Ewing, his PO averages will go down. I can live with a 26ppg scorer with similar TS to Bird being your closer. Bird's the better closer. If the games get tight you're likely to see some match-ups where some of Williams' minutes go to Bird at PF and move Bowen to SF. Bowen plays Barry, Bird on Lucas, etc.

[bastillon]

if someone wanted to post a rebuttal then I'm sorry, but I'll be judging now, after reading all of what you wrote.

AITN vs Miller

C matchup will be the biggest here, and this goes clearly in Shaq's favour. many people overlook this fact, but Magic made Kareem significantly better than he was. right around '74 Kareem slowly started to regress year by year and it wasn't until Magic came that he has rejuvenated himself and again won an MVP along with a title. the truth is though, Kareem was very easily at his peak in the Milwaukee - he was more athletic, better defender and I believe he was a better scorer as well. Shaq on the other hand was absolutely dominant in the '00 and I don't think Kareem can even slow him down, especially with that (kind of old) version. not to mention that Kareem was known for having trouble against physical centers, not only Lanier but also he was repeatedly dominated by Moses. Shaq is as physical as you can get and I think Kareem will struggle at both ends of the court. he can't guard him giving up ~70 pounds and he can't score on him very well either, because he'll be pushed out of the paint fairly easily and Shaq is an elite man defender and can bother Kareem's skyhooks like Wilt or Sampson with his 7'2 height and 7'7 wingspan (and oh boy they did bother that).

also, when you're guarding Shaq with Kareem 1 on 1, without consistent double teams aside from couple of mins with Thurmond double teaming off of Rodman (and you do basing on what you wrote), there's no way he can play 36 mins. he'll be put in foul trouble very quickly and will be lucky to get to ~33 MPG in that series. what you should really do is to double off of his backcourt because they don't have 3pt range and 20 footers from average midrange shooters never killed any team. Rodman will just have a lay-up fest, this is a really foolish tactic and you never see teams doubling that way. there's a reason for that. you double off of perimeter. leaving your man open right under the basket won't get it done. it simply won't.

to sum up, I think Kareem is a great player and in general I value him more than Shaq, but this version is not peak Kareem, it's slightly past prime Kareem and more importantly, Shaq is a terrible matchup against him, especially with a bad defensive scheme.

I don't like Thurmond at PF either. first of all, I think Thurmond is vastly overrated in general (as opposed to a guy like Cowens or Lanier who were far away from Thurmond). he doesn't have a reliable jumpshot. he isn't an epic finisher (though he's really good). he can't create any offense whatsoever. he's only about 6'9 or 6'10 (BBR measurement is way off here, any video tape will confrim that - Cowens was about 2 inches taller though Cowens is a good 6'11 in reality). I've watched enough of Thurmond to see that. there's also a factual evidence proving that he's bad playing PF. they did that with Wilt and it didn't work at all. these were two of the TOP3 bigs in the league and were far more talented than any other duo and it still didn't work. how the hell is that gonna work against equally talented tandems in ATL ? nope, Thurmond at PF is a bad idea. he cloggs the lane for slashers and if you leave him on the perimeter, he's not reliable shooter to depend on him. much better idea would be to use Thurmond guarding Rodman all game long. not necessarily help, but just sag off and block shots in the paint. still, I don't see how you can use him in the ATL effectively when he doesn't really have a J and isn't good enough to anchor the defense.

with Kareem contained by Shaq and Thurmond useless, I don't see where is scoring gonna come from. TMac will score a lot, but he won't get to the paint because the spacing is too poor and he wasn't exactly a great jumpshooter, though better than Melo and Lebron for that matter. Kidd isn't a scorer and Pressey is a point forward (another guy whose value is vastly limited with Kidd/Tmac/KAJ). this team, even with some scoring from the bench, won't be efficient against epic defense of AITN's team.

on the other hand, Miller didn't really say how he's gonna defend Shaq. putting Kareem on him is fine until he's put in the foul trouble. Thurmond is simply too small and too weak to make any kind of impact on him. still, I can believe he's gonna double off of shooters sooner or later and as he sees some success with that tactic, he'll use it more and more. that way, Shaq can be contained and then this team can be stopper fairly easily. neither Frazier nor Moncrief aren't devastating offensive players in ATL and without a great spacing either, I can see AITN's team being vastly limited offensively as well.

AITN's team has poor shooting and non existant 3pt shooting. they can't run. Stojakovic who will be easily contained by Pressey, is possibly 2nd best scoring weapon (considering interior defense)... and he's playing limited mins as well.

this is gonna be a tough defensive series, similar to today's Magic-Celtics matchups, with teams going cold for entire quarters or even halves (Magic 25 pts in the 1st half on X-Mas). this is gonna be an awful series for average fans. a lot of physical fouls. a lot of trash talking. think Bulls-Knicks. Heat-Knicks. Pistons-Spurs except 2000% more physical. ultimately, it'll come down to easy points...

T-Mac will get his against Moncrief, I don't think Squid is big, athletic or strong enough to bother him. Rodman on T-Mac ? now that's vastly limiting McGrady's effectiveness. Prince gave him a lot of trouble that year... Rodman would be great. Moncrief ? nah, not so much. with paint packed with big bodys, McGrady will shoot over him and maybe force some FTs... but that's it. it will matter however that they have super perimeter scorer who can create off the dribble 1on1 against the best defenders.

that and

My team runs better as a unit than AitN's. Scoring isn't an issue when you create turnovers and go on fastbreaks with 7'2" Kareem running way ahead of Shaq and Jason Kidd at the controls. Also, this may seem silly, but it really isn't with Jason Kidd, T-Mac, Nate, and Kareem. Alley-oops are a viable offensive option. Moncrief cannot nullify T-Mac when he elevates.

will decide the series.

4-2 for Kareem's team in ugly looking series. I'd love it. brawl waiting to happen.
Vote: Miller4Ever

[bastillon]

Cellar:

We'll be running the inverted offense keeping Hakeem out of the paint with Lanier's range. Even if you grant TMAC's point that he's no prolific from there, which I disagree with, if he leaves him open he's killing himself. Bird and Payton will be the main cogs controlling the post with Lanier spread out and Carter either spacing with Lanier or cutting with Hawkins. We'll give Lanier a few touches in the paint each quarter as well and if it looks like he's hot, we'll increase them.

if Hakeem just looks to be absolutely crazy hot, we'll be helping off MRR with VC or Bird, who will see limited time on him when Bowens in with Barry.

TMac:

- Better PG play, better post option to run offense through, and adequate wing play-making as well. Our ability to find the pass is greater, thus our execution down the stretch is more flexible and versatile if one of our options were to be taken away. Not too mention, a closing sort of lineup with Allen, Barry, and Lucas with Paul as the initiator, and Hakeem in the post does not statistically turn the ball over as well.

- We feel our bench provides similar things, such as a defensive stopper, but ours not being to the extent offensively limited as Bowen. Then with Nance/JO being comparable to Buck/Sabonis, and I feel our backup PG play (with Richardson), and Allen being the best player coming off the bench, we definitely feel we have more versatility, and effectiveness coming off the bench.

I like this strategy. the most important thing when facing Hakeem is not to play inside-outside battle. during Hakeem's championship seasons he faced many teams playing that way and every single one of them lost. you wanna limit Hakeem's impact and when you not using Lanier a lot and instead looking to score in the post with other players (who are also very good passers), when it's that hard to double team them with anyone or even give reasonable help, it becomes a major advantage for that team.

we have Lanier guarding Hakeem and Bird/VC/GP helping him, now that's something I don't like. you can't guard Hakeem with "helping" if you wanna defend him in any way, you have to send consistent double teams and force him to kick the ball outside. I don't like the idea of "trying how it feels". before you know, Hakeem will get hot and then he's unstoppable. what's even more annoying for the defense is that he has that fadeaway baseline and a variety of spins so that he can split the double teams or escape from them to shoot fadeaway and even when you wanna stop him, he can still get his shot off. you don't make Hakeem beat you. you're trying to deny him the ball and send doubles immediately. that's what the Sonics did in '96 and Hakeem struggled against that kind of defense. once he has the ball and room to operate, it's all over. your defense must work prior to that.

the best idea would be to put Vince on Chris Paul and Gary Payton on MRR. Vince can bother Paul with his athleticism, just like Dahntay Jones did. Dahntay is no better than peak Vince as a defender. I know Paul was injured last year, but still. anyway, Payton won't stop Paul and neither will Vince, so what you have to do in this situation is to put worse defender on him with GP playing the passing lanes and doubling Hakeem. MRR is an awful, Rondo-like, historically bad shooter. you've gotta take advantage of that. with Vince and his help defese ? nah, you not getting it. he'll do alright, but Gary can really disrupt entire offense, he's just a much better team defender than Carter. Paul will score on the pick and rolls, not individually, so Payton's impact defensively will be significantly lower when playing against Chris Paul.

but the way you played it, Cellar, it won't work. Hakeem will dominate against this kind of defensive scheme and it won't bother CP either, as you haven't addressed the pick and roll issue. Hakeem will own Lanier every time he's left one on one and this matchup is a big advantage for TMAC.

as I can see reading through these writeups, people don't really remember Hakeem. those defenders who were effective against him weren't extremely athletic or insanely strong. most of them were just solid players ito athleticism, but mostly intelligent. Divac did a great job. Pau Gasol would work alright. Kevin Garnett would be by far the best defender ever against Dream, because of elite ball denial, reach and quickness along with great bball IQ. you need some size to bother his jumpshots but also quickness to stay with him everywhere and most importantly bball IQ. you won't get away with gambling (DRob's shotblocking) or physical defenders (Ewing and Knicks). Hakeem will do his thing anyway, but to play against him effectively, you need a certain type of defenders, not necessarily DPOYs... it's more matchup thing. Hakeem is such an anomaly ito style of play that you have to settle for unorthodox sollutions. what you don't wanna do is to put a defender like Lanier on him. Hakeem is too versatile for him. not to mention that you actually wanna leave him 1on1 (why don't you just throw a white flag ? )

there are obviously advantages on Cellar's side as well. Barry on Bird ? haha, seriously. Barry was more of a swingman-defender and he kinda sucked in the post. on the other end, Bird will play great defense on him, bc Barry was a jumpshooter rather than slasher and Bird won't have to use his limited quickness all that much, Larry had trouble with athletic players, not against jumpshooters, especially when he does have a size advantage and tremendous basketball IQ as well, this matchup goes to Bird very clearly.

this, in addition of bigs with excellent passing and range, and pretty good outside shooting in general, is a great way of running your offense. CP is a very underrated post defender but against Payton, he'll fail miserably, especially with VC/Bird/Hawk/Lanier around him, as they all provide spacing/passing and Payton is a very good passer himself. this is gonna be a long series for Chris Paul.

this is gonna be a high scoring series as neither is defensive minded and both teams have holes defensively. this is also gonna be a very close series as neither team found the answer to stop one another. I feel in the end it's gonna come down to small things, like bench and closing games. Hakeem is a great closer and with CP/Ray/Barry/Lucas you can't stop that team. TMac also pointed out bench advantage which I acknowledged.

all things considered, Hakeem will dominate the series and even with Bird's dominance of Barry, I don't feel like they can overcome this issue. I think if couple of decisions regarding guarding Hakeem were made differently (Payton helping on Dream off of non-shooter MMR + consistent double teams on him as well), the outcome of this series would look totally different. I believe Bird would truly dominate Barry, as well as Payton could score A LOT on CP, so offensively this team is fine. it's the defense where TMAC's spacing with non shooter wasn't maximized as a disadvantage.

Vote: TMAC4MVP

[Dr Positivity]

All in the Name

PG: Walt Frazier (40) / Dana Barros (8)
SG: Sidney Moncrief (34) / Lou Hudson (14)
SF: Lou Hudson (11) / Peja Stojakovic (27) / Dennis Rodman (10)
PF: Dennis Rodman (26) / Rasheed Wallace (22)
C : Shaquille O'Neal (40) / Rasheed Wallace (8)

vs.

Miller4ever

Jason Kidd(36)/Don Buse(12)
Tracy McGrady(36)/Dan Majerle(12)
Paul Pressey(30)/Alex English(18)
Nate Thurmond(24)/Dan Roundfield(24)
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar(36)/Nate Thurmond(12)

AITN should have two major sources of efficient offense. Shaq and his 30ppg .60 TS% level and whatever open 3s Lou Hudson, Peja, Sheed, and Baros get. The problem is Miller4ever's team will always have a man on Peja or Lou, instead choosing to double off Walt, Moncrief, and Rodman. Furthermore Miller's players will have the ability to sag off them before Shaq gets the ball - Thus creating a lot of turnovers off entry passes. The more Walt and Moncrief shoot the ball the less succesful AITN's offense will be and in this case they will be left open quite often.

Miller's offense has an equal post scorer in Kareem but more perimeter players creating shots. Much of his team's success will depend on how efficient these perimeter players are. They will likely take a lot of 2 pointers, as there are no spot up 3 shooters among them. The team will run a lot more pick and rolls and plays for Kidd, Tmac, Pressey, and Thurmond, looking to exploit Shaq's pnr d. A major key of the series will be how much Tmac gets to the line, who averaged 9.7 FTA/game in 03. Considering the heavy load of 2 pointers in this series, Tmac's FTs will be the most efficient scoring weapon on the team aside from Shaq and Kareem. One advantage Miller will have is minimal TOs thanks to so many playmaking perimeter guys and Kareem having shooting range

When Shaq and Kareem are off the floor due to rest or foul trouble, how both teams play without them is very key. AITN will run out Frazier, Moncrief, Peja/Lou, Rodman, Sheed... Miller has Kidd, Tmac, Pressey/English, Roundfield, Thurmond. A couple factors swing this for Miller. Kidd is a devastating matchup against Frazier who relies on his postup game, and Tmac in his 32ppg form is just on a different level than anyone else here. Finally and perhaps the biggest one... who guards Kareem when Shaq is in foul trouble? Sheed is the only backup big. Now Sheed is a good defensive player, but can he handle Kareem?

Miller's team will get more fastbreak points. Kidd, Tmac, Pressey, Thurmond, Kareem should excel running the floor. This will be essentially important when they need to create offense without Kareem. I also think English is a bench X factor that could come in and swing a lot of games himself. AITN doesn't have that 6th man impact

Rebounding... starting lineup vs starting lineup is a wash. The swing comes on the bench. AITN plays Sheed 30mpg which will hurt him HUGE on the boards against a Kareem, Thurmond, Roundfield trio

So overall conclusions. Miller's team has several factors swinging it in his favor. He turns it over less, Tmac at the line is a 2nd uber efficient mode of scoring, he gets more fastbreak points, he has perimeter players who can carry the offense when Kareem is off more than AITN can for Shaq, and he has a significant rebounding advantage because of Sheed's 30mpg

Vote Miller4ever fairly easily

[Warspite]

Miller 4 ever: Better more eff scorers and English might be the best player if he was on the other team. I personaly would put Thurmond on Shaq but Im sure they will take turns. theres no doubt Shaq wont guard KAJ for more than half the game. I think Sheed would do a better job on KAJ. I just believe that English/Tmac have a huge scoring adv that AITNs team just cant match.

[SamBone]

guys I am sorry I don't have time to write up my vote, but I still will place them

I think Miller will win a close series. It is a tight matchup but I think Miller has an edge

In a great series, I have to give CD the nod here.

Good luck to all. this game was fun

[All In The Name]

Ok, Miller4ever advances. Congrats on the victory.

The other series is tied 1-1, and I know ronnymac2 was planning on voting (and possibly some other posters), so hopefully the championship matchup will be set soon.

[BlackIce]

I'd rather not vote on the T-Mac/Cellar matchup as of now. If it isn't decided by tomorrow night I'll vote then.