Kobe Bryant: the most overrated defender imaginable

[primecougar]

yeah its around my exam times/ labs im a little busy too but yeah maybe i need to watch the final again because i want my wing players to play perimeter defense. I dont put too much value in their shot blocking abilities. Wade is an amazing shot blocker for his size and is very amazing/exciting but i rather have my guard play lockdown perimeter d over getting a block. Wades not in the paint enough for him to change the game that way. Or maybe i was rooting against the heat and didnt really pay a lot of attention to them.

Btw i prefer wade over lebron in terms of shot blocking. Hell i even prefer kobe from a couple years back when he was stuffing guys at the rim over lebrons chase down on pgs

[Doctor MJ]

yeah its around my exam times/ labs im a little busy too but yeah maybe i need to watch the final again because i want my wing players to play perimeter defense. I dont put too much value in their shot blocking abilities. Wade is an amazing shot blocker for his size and is very amazing/exciting but i rather have my guard play lockdown perimeter d over getting a block. Wades not in the paint enough for him to change the game that way. Or maybe i was rooting against the heat and didnt really pay a lot of attention to them.

Btw i prefer wade over lebron in terms of shot blocking. Hell i even prefer kobe from a couple years back when he was stuffing guys at the rim over lebrons chase down on pgs

Cool.

I think a key thing to remember also is that for the first 4 games, Wade was not only racking up steals and blocks to go with huge scoring, but also easily leading the team in rebounding. He was just everywhere all at once in a way that was both impressive and not at all normal for him. For example, had he had to go all out in the WCF instead of holding back a bit, I seriously doubt he'd have been so good in the finals.

[davidchatman]

Wow plenty of information on kobe bryant. I was searching for such information to write an essay on kobe bryant. Thank you for the topic.

[LakerLegend]

"Kobe," says Celtic Coach Doc Rivers, "might be the best help defender since Pippen."

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_ ... tics-house

Smoke dat, Doc

[Scrizz]

Here are his numbers over nearly a decade:

28.5 PPG/5.8 RPG/5.4 APG/1.8 SPG/0.5 BPG/56% TS

Here are his seasons over this stretch:
29/6/5/2/55% TS
25/6/6/2/55% TS
30/7/6/2/1/55% TS
24/5/5/2/56% TS
28/6/6/1/56% TS
35/5/5/2/56% TS
32/6/5/2/58% TS
28/6/5/2/58% TS
27/5/5/2/56% TS
27/5/5/2/55% TS

Accolades/Accomplishments during this time:
4-Time NBA Champion
6-Time NBA Finalist
16X Player of the Month
8X All-NBA 1st Team
1X All-NBA 2nd Team
7X All-NBA 1st Team Defense
2X All-NBA 2nd Team Defense
9X All-Star
4X All-Star MVP
1X NBA-MVP
2X NBA-Finals MVP

Over this stretch he had:
24X 50+ point games
5X 60+ point games
105 40+ point games

Some of his sickest stretches:
9 straight 40+ point games (2003)
13 straight 35+ point games (2003)
4 straight 45+ point games (2006)
4 straight 50+ point games (2007)
Averaged 40+ PPG in four different months
Averaged 37/6/5/59% TS post All-Star Break (2007)
81 pts
62 pts in three quarters
8 different games where he recorded 50+ points through three quarters of play

Some of his best playoff runs:
2001: 29 PPG/7 RPG/6 APG/2 SPG/56% TS. NBA Championship. Lakers go 15-1.
2002: 27 PPG/6 RPG/5 APG/2 SPG/52% TS. NBA Championship.
2008: 30 PPG/6 RPG/6 APG/2 SPG/58% TS. NBA Finals
2009: 30 PPG/6 RPG/5 APG/2 SPG/57% TS. NBA Championship
2010: 29 PPG/6 RPG/6 APG/2 SPG/57% TS. NBA Championship


When scoring 40+(107 games)
-45.4 PPG
-6.1 RPG
-4.1 APG
-1.8 SPG
-0.6 BPG
-51.0% from the field
-44.2% from downtown
-85.7% from the line
-59.4 TS%
-Lakers went 73-34(.682)

When scoring 50+(23 games)
-54.9 PPG
-6.4 RPG
-3.4 APG
-1.6 SPG
-0.5 BPG
-54.0% from the field
-47.2% from downtown
-89.3% from the line
-62.2 TS%
-Lakers went 17-6(.739)

When scoring 60+(5 games)
-65.8 PPG
-5.2 RPG
-2.4 APG
-1.8 SPG
-0.4 BPG
-58.7% from the field
-52.1% from downtown
-92.6% from the line
-67.6 TS%
-Lakers went 5-0(1.0)

LOL @ doc being a laker fan. what a joke. u mad?

[Scrizz]

Nash nut-huger criticizing a far superior defender's defense. LOL.LOL.LOL

[Scrizz]

january 2006.

45/7/4/2
48/10/3/2
50/8/8/2
45/10/5/2
41/4/3/1
38/7/7/2
37/5/3/1
51/9/4/2
37/2/3/1
81/6/3/2
30/8/5/2
39/6/4/2
40/4/3/3

look at his game-logs in late 2007.

65/7/4/1
50/6/4/2
60/5/4/2
50/7/2/1
43/9/2/1
53/2/2/1
39/4/4/2
29/7/3/2
46/6/5/1
34/7/4/2
23/10/5/1
50/9/2/1
50/8/3/2
34/7/6/2

feb 2003.
40/8/4
38/5/4/2
42/4/4/2
35/7/2/2
46/6/4/2
42/5/5/2
51/3/3/2
44/6/4/2
40/5/4/2
52/8/7/2
40/6/2/1/1
40/7/2/2
41/5/5/2


April 2006:
43/6/4/2
43/6/3/1
42/8/21
51/5/5/2
38/5/5/3
50/6/5/1
43/8/5/3
35/5/5/2

u mad bitch?

[Scrizz]

The Greatness of Kobe Bean Bryant!!!
9X All-NBA 1st Team
2X All-NBA 2nd Team
2X All-NBA 3rd Team
9X All-NBA 1st Team Defense
2X All-NBA 2nd Team Defense
5X Top 5 DPOY/9X Top 10 DPOY
13X Time All-Star
4X Time All-Star MVP
2X NBA Finals MVP
1X NBA MVP
10th All-Time in MVP Shares
2X Scoring Champion
5 Time NBA Champion
7 Time NBA Finalist
10 55+ Win Seasons
15X Player of the Month Winner
Slam Dunk Champion (1997)
#1 Offensive APM (10 Year Study)
#10 All-Time in WAR
24 Career Average PER (15 Seasons)
2X Gold Medalist
Sporting News Player of the Decade
TNT Player of the Decade
ESPN Player of the Decade
Sports Illustrated Top 20 Male Athlete of the Decade (2000s) #7 (the only NBA player in the top 10)


Has more 50+ point games than any player in history not named Wilt or Jordan (25)
Has more 40+ point games than any player in history not named Wilt or Jordan (110)
Has more 60+ point games than any player in history not named Wilt (5)
Record Holder: Highest percentage of team points (2005-2006)
Record Holder: Most threes in one game (12)
Only player in history to score at least 600 points in three consecutive post-seasons
2001-2010 RS: 28.6 PPG/5.7 RPG/5.4 APG/1.7 SPG/0.6 BPG/56% TS
2001-2010 PS: 28.8 PPG/5.8 RPG/5.2 APG/1.8 SPG/0.6 BPG/56% TS
Some of his best seasons:
35 PPG/5 RPG/5 APG/2 SPG/0.5 BPG/56% TS
32 PPG/6 RPG/5 APG/1.5 SPG/0.5 BPG/58% TS
30 PPG/7 RPG/6 APG/2 SPG/1 BPG/55% TS
29 PPG/6 RPG/5 APG/2 SPG/0.6 BPG/55% TS
28 PPG/6 RPG/6 APG/2 SPG/0.5 BPG/58% TS
27 PPG/5 RPG/5 APG/1.5 SPG/0.5 BPG/56% TS
27 PPG/5 RPG/5 APG/1.5 SPG/0.4 BPG/55% TS
28 PPG/6 RPG/6 APG/1.4 SPG/0.5 BPG/56% TS
26 PPG/6 APG/6 RPG/2 SPG/0.6 BPG/55% TS
Some of his best post-seasons:
29 PPG/7 RPG/6 APG/2 SPG/1 BPG/56% TS (16 games)
27 PPG/6 RPG/5 APG/2 SPG/0.5 BPG/52% TS (22 games)
30 PPG/6 APG/6 APG/1.4 SPG/0.5 BPG/58% TS (22 games)
30 PPG/6 RPG/5 APG/1.5 SPG/0.4 BPG/57% TS (23 games)
29 PPG/6 RPG/6 APG/1.4 SPG/0.4 BPG/57% TS (23 games)
29 PPG/6 RPG/5 APG/1.3 SPG/0.3 BPG/58% TS (7 games)
33 PPG/5 RPG/5 APG/1.4 SPG/0.4 BPG/56% TS (5 games)
4 straight 45+ point games (2006)
4 straight 50+ point games (2007)
9 straight 40+ point games (2003)
13 straight 35+ point games (2003)
81 pts
62 points in three quarters. Outscored opposing team by himself.
27 40+ point games in one season (Only Wilt/Jordan have done that)
10 50+ point games in one season (Only player beside Wilt to do so)
Has three different games where he scored 30+ in one quarter.
Has six different games where he scored 50+ pts though three quarters.
Has five different months where he averaged 40+ PPG.
One of seven players ever with 25,000 pts/5,000 rbs/5,000 asts
6th on All-Time Scoring List
4th on All-Time Playoff Scoring List

u mad kobe>>>>nash bitch?

[Scrizz]

10 55+ win seasons
7 NBA Finals
5 Titles

U mad "laker fan"?LMAO

[Doctor MJ]

LOL @ doc being a laker fan. what a joke. u mad?

I guess I've got a stalker.

Funny thing is that he keeps saying "u mad" while he's the one spewing insults and obscenities for no other purpose than to get back at others.

Dude, u mad, not me. I'm cool as the other side of the pillow.

[Doctor MJ]

u mad kobe>>>>nash bitch?

Just a point of clarification: I do have Kobe ranked well ahead of Nash on my all-time list, and it doesn't make me mad.

[MF Doom]

Damn, 33 accounts.

[ewiz]

LOL @ doc being a laker fan. what a joke. u mad?

Dude, u mad, not me. I'm cool as the other side of the pillow.

is that why you spend so much time hating on kobe "laker fan". lol.

[semi-sentient]

Kobe's defense was really, REALLY bad this season. I don't know about "most overrated defender imaginable", which sounds more like an emotional hissyfit than actual analysis, but he's definitely been a bit overrated the past few season. Several players have, in fact.

In 2009-10, he played with a lot more energy/effort, and in the playoffs he was excellent throughout. I thought he and Artest played great off each other (always communicating, rotating/switching properly, consistent effort), and it's the reason that the Lakers had one of the best perimeter defenses in the league despite Derek Fisher. I felt the same way about his defense in 2008-09, and to a lesser extent in 2007-08.

One thing to note is that his defense has generally picked up in the playoffs, but this year it actually got worse, which I think is going to seal Kobe's fate as far as All-Defense selections are concerned. My belief is that the voters base their selections off of what they see him do the prior year in the playoffs (when else do they get to watch these players consistently?), so we'll see that theory put to the test next season.

BTW, I don't think people are accounting for how many games some of the other candidates are missing, or how little they actually play. I've seen Brewer mentioned, but the guy played 22 mpg this season and while he played 30 mpg last season, he only played in 58 games. That's the exact same reason that Kobe wasn't making the 1st team earlier in his career when he was considered an elite defender -- he missed too many games.

What I would like to know is who people would select to the All-Defensive teams year-in, year-out. Start from 05-06 through 10-11. Keep in mind that minutes played matter/games missed matters and have repeatedly effected the outcome.

For my part, I think Kobe should have, at best, made the 2nd team in 2009-10. Sefolosha should have taken his place. A bit off topic, but Artest should have been on the 1st team over LeBron, so let's not act like Kobe is the only guy getting reputation selections.

In 2008-09, he was competing with Rondo, Wade, and Battier. Battier missed too many games, and Rondo just wasn't as good defensively (way less versatile, and quite overrated), so that really only leaves Wade, who IMO should have made the team over Chris Paul. My guards would have been Kobe and Wade that year. At worst, Kobe gets on the 2nd team. Thabo was not even in the running due to low minutes and missed time.

In 2007-08, I would have had Battier over Kobe, moving him down to 2nd team with Raja Bell. That's right, no guards on the 1st team.

2005-06 and 2006-07 are tougher because I can't remember too much about how anyone else played defense. I felt that Kobe's defense was still pretty good, but this is right around the time that he started to conserve more for offense. Still an above average defender most nights, and still able to lock guys up for long stretches, so he makes the 2nd team at worst. I'd be interested in hearing a few more candidates. What I remember is that there weren't any arguments made at the time for players above Kobe (on RealGM), but unfortunately those older threads no longer exist. They would provide some great insight though. Prince's defense seemed to fall off, and as fundamentally sound as Kidd is, I don't think he was 1st team worthy either. Hinrich? I'm not so sure. Perhaps. He was a solid defender.

Going back a little further, I think his 1st team selections were deserved. He was still playing defense at a very high level through 2003-04. In 2001-02 he got beat out by Payton when he was clearly a better defensive player. This is one of those situations where missed time hurt him, so it's understandable. The same was true in 2000-01. Even if he's currently overrated, he still likely deserved quite a few of his selections and deserves recognition as a great (perhaps not all-time great) defensive player for his career.

Beyond that what happened? Well, do you remember how many times Westbrook scored 20 points in that 6 game series? 3 times, with one of those times coming simply from him shooting a lot. This notion that Westbrook was killing the Lakers then is extremely overblown. Now remember that Westbrook was doing this with about 99% of the Lakers' D energy focused elsewhere because he has a far more dangerous teammate in Durant.

Westbrook's scoring wasn't the only issue. He was getting to the paint with relative ease, which led to easy scores for other guys because our bigs were constantly scrambling to recover. He was breaking Fishers ankles on every play. When Kobe took over, he made him more of a jump-shooter, and when Westbrook went hard to the basket he funneled him properly so that there was always someone there to help out. It's called playing defense the right way, and it changed the outcome of the series. The Lakers weren't focusing that much effort on Durant. Why the exaggeration? Artest was playing him just fine, and mostly straight up.

The same is true of how he plays Rondo. Kobe didn't get all in his grill and stifle him, but he played him in such a way that his playmaking was far less effective. He gave him space and kept him out of the paint, and I've never understood why other wings who have attempted to guard Rondo didn't play him the same way. Maybe they just aren't that smart?

I find it mind-boggling that you could make the following statement in another thread, then completely ignore how Kobe's "smart" defense effectively limited Westbrook (and Rondo -- which people love to claim was "matador" defense):

The most important aspect of defense is team defense. That means making the right decisions, not getting out of place, and knowing how to guide the guy you're guarding into the help. Add to that being able to anticipate passing lanes, and defensive rebounds well, and that's a lot of good.

While it's certainly true that to be an elite defender you must also be agile enough to be a strong "shut down" kind of man defender, this notion that that constitutes all defense is wrongheaded. There are quite a few extremely athletic guys in the league who are poor defender simply because they don't understand how to function on defense within the complexities of the team game at the NBA level.

PS: I can't believe anyone is trying to defend Fisher's defense, which I've seen several posters do. That is an excellent way to lose credibility as a poster. He's an atrocious man defender who can't stay with anyone. Doesn't anyone remember how badly he was getting burned by Westbrook in the 2009-10 playoffs, or any quick guard for that matter? His help defense is mind-numbingly bad. He's constantly lost on plays, and he doubles/fronts when he should be sticking with his man. He's successful at chasing guys like Allen around, but even then he gets burned with regularity because he likes to flop on screens. Speaking of Ray Allen, he flat out choked in the Finals (or was shooting poorly, whatever you want to call it), missing all kinds of great looks. His poor play had nothing to do with what Fisher was doing, and anyone that watched the series instead of hitting F5 at the ESPN box score would know that.

[MF Doom]

LOL @ doc being a laker fan. what a joke. u mad?

Dude, u mad, not me. I'm cool as the other side of the pillow.

is that why you spend so much time hating on kobe "laker fan". lol.

34

[rrravenred]

Feedeth not the sockpuppet troll...

[Original Baller]

"Kobe," says Celtic Coach Doc Rivers, "might be the best help defender since Pippen."

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_ ... tics-house

Smoke dat, Doc

this is the fact that boggles my mind

almost every person inside the NBA be they players, coaches, GMs, former players, etc. all speak so highly of Kobe's D and I've almost never heard any criticism about him being overrated

yet its people who don't have a close connection to the game and its inner working (media people and internet message posters) that feel the need to say Kobe's overrated

I know most of you clowns say that arguing from authority is a logical fallacy. But the point would have strong merit if I was just citing one argument by an authority versus your opinion. This is more like every legitmiate authority's opinion on the subject.

There has to be a reason Kobe continues to get voted by the coaches at all-defense 1st team and that his peers continue to give him the props of being the best on both ends of the floor. You haters need to come to grips with the reality it might be more than just REP.

[parapooper]

There has to be a reason Kobe continues to get voted by the coaches at all-defense 1st team and that his peers continue to give him the props of being the best on both ends of the floor.

http://www.pnas.org/content/108/22/9020.full


examples:
close to 100% of NBA experts said in 2009 that Kobe is the one they want to have the ball in his hand with the game on the line even though Kobe was pretty much the worst star player in the NBA in that regard over the previous 6 years
http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

The same "experts" said LeBron's problem is that he is not clutch even though he had been the best clutch player in the NBA for years:
http://www.backpicks.com/2011/01/10/the ... ince-2003/


In the US the social influence effect is much stronger than in most first world countries because the population is highly religious and as such has been accustomed to believing completely ridiculous nonsense because everybody else does from early childhood. For other examples check the accuracy of public and expert opinions on internet stocks, real estate prices or WMDs in Iraq.

[Doctor MJ]

this is the fact that boggles my mind

almost every person inside the NBA be they players, coaches, GMs, former players, etc. all speak so highly of Kobe's D and I've almost never heard any criticism about him being overrated

yet its people who don't have a close connection to the game and its inner working (media people and internet message posters) that feel the need to say Kobe's overrated

I know most of you clowns say that arguing from authority is a logical fallacy. But the point would have strong merit if I was just citing one argument by an authority versus your opinion. This is more like every legitmiate authority's opinion on the subject.

There has to be a reason Kobe continues to get voted by the coaches at all-defense 1st team and that his peers continue to give him the props of being the best on both ends of the floor. You haters need to come to grips with the reality it might be more than just REP.

I'll respond to the whole post, but wow, that part I've bolded is kind of amazing. I'm not even sure what to even say other than it kind encapsulates the whole issue.

What people like me are doing is pointing out that the stats don't back up the close-to-the-scene opinions, and then elaborating by pointing out why even extremely knowledgeable humans have problem forming objective and accurate conclusions in certain circumstances which happen to align quite clearly with the situation with Kobe.

Re: "There has to be a reason..." Yes, there is, and there's no shortage of explanations here. Reputation helps Kobe. Focusing on highlights and particularly salient game performances helps Kobe. Narrative helps Kobe.

Re: "You haters need to come to grips with the reality it might be more than just REP." Um, I'm already there dude. I've been there for a long time. On the other hand, you people-who-call-people-who-disagree-with-you-as-haters need to come to grips with the reality that there are real, objective things causing analytical observers to think less highly of Kobe than casual fans.

[pcortes64]

Speaking of Ray Allen, he flat out choked in the Finals (or was shooting poorly, whatever you want to call it), missing all kinds of great looks. His poor play had nothing to do with what Fisher was doing, and anyone that watched the series instead of hitting F5 at the ESPN box score would know that.

Kind of OT, but I disagree that Ray Allen choked. I think that the reason that Allen's shooting suffered was his all-out effort on D'ing up Kobe. Dead legs from that coupled that with his advanced age most likely had an effect on his shooting. Choking is not having the right mental attitude in the moment. I think that what happened there was a physical breakdown, not a mental one.