Is Kobe really an inefficient scorer?

[lilojmayo]

lol @ Kobe fans. So desperate.

Also, how about we take them from age 21-31 rather than for their careers, which includes numerous past-prime seasons for MJ.

O.J. Mayo: 55.2 TS%, 51.6 eFG%, 45.8 FG%, 38.3 3P%, 80.9 FT%
Kobe Bryant: 54.5 TS%, 48.8 eFG%, 45.7 FG%, 32.9 3P%, 81.1 FT%




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Except Kobe was doing it at 27 PPG while Mayo was at like 18 PPG. Not really close.

THANK YOU! And how many game-winners has O.J. Mayo hit? Kobe haters are ridiculous, respect a great player. Of course he had a terrible shot selection, you don't think Jordan didn't either? Please

I'm a kobe fan, not a hater. I am not saying Kobe isn't efficient. He is somewhat efficient that's the best way to put it. That's how I describe OJ also. Kobe isn't Allen Iverson 39% FG for an entire season , however he isn't even Wade or Bron in terms of efficiency. You don't even numbers just watch the games.

My point was Kobe isn't as efficient as Jordan. You have to remember Jordan Wizard stats are big time outliners in his career and seriously lower all his regular season career averages. There is a reason why MJ still averages 33.4 ppg in the playoffs. Jordan shot 41% and 44% as a Wizard And that lowered his career FG%to 49.7% FG. That means he was shooting over 50% FG as a Bull. I mean 7 out of Jordan 13 years as a bull he shot between 51-54% from the field. Compare that to 9 out of 14 years Kobe has shot between 45-46.8% .

Again I don't need percentages or PER to know that, or a formula that tries to argue kobe''s scoing efficiency was on part was MJ. Or MJ had just of a bad shot selection as kobe did. Kobe is still in his prime years. Just watch a video of MJ in prime and Kobe in prime. It amazes me how nowadays nobody wants to actually watch the footage.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peLzmwmN69g[/youtube]

[mysticbb]

If someone went through the games and made a stat where the Lakers dump Kobe the ball the for the last few secs of the shot clock they would realize no player in NBA history is forced to take so many bad shots.

That stats exists already. Percentage of shot attemps in the last 8 seconds/3 seconds of the shot clock in 2009-10:

Dirk Nowitzki 44/16
LeBron James 44/24
Kobe Bryant 36/14

I just looked up two players and both took MORE of their shots with the shot clock running down in comparison to Bryant.

Bryant numbers for the last couple of years:

2008-09: 34/12
2007-08: 32/12
2006-07: 34/13
2005-06: 34/12
2004-05: 41/17
2003-04: 36/15
2002-03: 33/12

Compare that to Nowitzki's:

2008-09: 42/13
2007-08: 45/18
2006-07: 45/17
2005-06: 43/18
2004-05: 35/13
2003-04: 31/9
2002-03: 32/11

As you can see Nowitzki is forced to take more late shots than Bryant consistently over the last 5 years. Over the last 8 years Nowitzki converted those shots with an average eFG% of 47.2, Bryant had 45.3. Only in the last two years Bryant was a bit more efficient than Nowitzki when taking those late shot clock shots.

[Original Baller]

I don't know why everyone went to the Kobe v. Jordan crap when I clearly said that Jordan is the GOAT and this wasn't a "Kobe is as good as Jordan" thread.

I was merely pointing out all the other HOF players who had TS% similair to Kobe's and why there is a perception created by many around here that Kobe isn't an efficient scorer compared to them.

Its obvious Kobe could shoot a much higher percentage if he cut down on alot of his "Kobe shots" but even with those high-risk shots he still shoots a percentage that is COMPARABLE to many other legends.

The question isn't whether Kobe is as efficient a scorer as Jordan. Thats easy.

Its whether the difference is large enough to call Kobe "inefficient".

[LAKESHOW]

people in the end... who cares.

the man is a champion.

thats the bottom line. what its all about. he has 5 rings, if phil jackson and the whole team comes back intact, he will get 6 possibly 7. accomplish that feat, he will be the greatest of all time in the modern era of basketball.

[jaypo]

Actually, with Rudy Gay and Amare signing with Miami this year, Kobe's reign as Finals MVP will be over. That title will now be given back to Dwade now that he has some help!!!

(Unless Lebron and Bosh team up with Joe Johnson, and Lebron somehow remembers how to win a playoff series instead of giving up)

[Malinhion]

Can we just start calling these irrational people the "TSers"?

[tsherkin]

Actually, with Rudy Gay and Amare signing with Miami this year, Kobe's reign as Finals MVP will be over. That title will now be given back to Dwade now that he has some help!!!

(Unless Lebron and Bosh team up with Joe Johnson, and Lebron somehow remembers how to win a playoff series instead of giving up)

This sounds like Bob Costas and co-host going through all the playoff possibilities in 'Baseketball...'

[team_cancer02]

Although he is the most successful and dominant guard in this era he is also the most stubborn and dumb.

Yes he could easily post yo ass up and score but he would rather take a contested fadeaway over a double team to prove a point.

If he were less into showboating and more into efficiency, I guarantee you he could put up LeBron's numbers. He cares more about winning, and sometimes overexerts his "will" - which is just trying to shoot every basket and will it in for 2-3pts.

But yes, he sometimes is terribly inefficient and it is frustrating because we know he could do so much better.

I guess we could use excuses such as his fingers or injuries, but I'm sure we'd get grilled for doing that.

Thus many would take Wade/LeBron/CP3 for fantasy bball purposes, but when its game time there is no other the coach would choose to seal the game.

Basically out of the bunch, Bryant is the most skilled yet the most stubborn and dumb, LeBron is the most athletic yet the most immature and attention-seeking, and Wade the most down to earth humble baller who takes a bit of Bryant's drive and a bit of LeBron's efficiency.

[semi-sentient]

Thought I'd compare Kobe to the other non-bigs that are generally considered "greater" than him, so here are the results:

Code: Select all

Player   RS TS%   LG AVG   DIFF       PS TS%   LG AVG   DIFF
======   =======================      =======================
Magic    .610     .538     +.072      .595     .537     +.058
Jordan   .569     .535     +.034      .568     .541     +.027
Kobe     .557     .529     +.028      .543     .527     +.016
Bird     .564     .537     +.027      .551     .537     +.014

Note that for the PS (post-season) TS%, I only calculated the LG AVG (league average) in the years that the above players actually participlated so it could be as accurate as possible.

Magic is on his own tier in terms of efficiency differential for non-bigs, followed by Jordan, Kobe, and then Bird.

Jordan's RS TS% is obviously effected by his Wizard days, so I think he's on his own level above Kobe and Bird.

After that it's pretty close between Kobe and Bird, and that's without considering Kobe's numbers during his non-starter/teenage years that drop his averages.

Anyway, food for thought.

[Harry_Seaward]

If someone went through the games and made a stat where the Lakers dump Kobe the ball the for the last few secs of the shot clock they would realize no player in NBA history is forced to take so many bad shots.

That stats exists already. Percentage of shot attemps in the last 8 seconds/3 seconds of the shot clock in 2009-10:

Dirk Nowitzki 44/16
LeBron James 44/24
Kobe Bryant 36/14

I just looked up two players and both took MORE of their shots with the shot clock running down in comparison to Bryant.

Bryant numbers for the last couple of years:

2008-09: 34/12
2007-08: 32/12
2006-07: 34/13
2005-06: 34/12
2004-05: 41/17
2003-04: 36/15
2002-03: 33/12

Compare that to Nowitzki's:

2008-09: 42/13
2007-08: 45/18
2006-07: 45/17
2005-06: 43/18
2004-05: 35/13
2003-04: 31/9
2002-03: 32/11

As you can see Nowitzki is forced to take more late shots than Bryant consistently over the last 5 years. Over the last 8 years Nowitzki converted those shots with an average eFG% of 47.2, Bryant had 45.3. Only in the last two years Bryant was a bit more efficient than Nowitzki when taking those late shot clock shots.

A. Great compilation destroying the notion that Kobe has to take MORE shots deep in the shot clock then any other player.

B. Kobe doesn't have to take any more tough shots deep in the clock then any other superstar. In fact I'd argue a player like LeBron has to take more because his team has less reliable options when that scenario arises.

[semi-sentient]

If someone went through the games and made a stat where the Lakers dump Kobe the ball the for the last few secs of the shot clock they would realize no player in NBA history is forced to take so many bad shots.

That stats exists already. Percentage of shot attemps in the last 8 seconds/3 seconds of the shot clock in 2009-10:

That's not what he asked for. He's talking about bail out shots where Kobe receives the ball back late in the shot clock, not overall shot attempts with a certain amount of time remaining. There definitely isn't a stat for that.

I'm willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of those shots compiled by 82games are a result of the players themselves running the clock out before shooting, not from getting the ball with 3 seconds left and being forced to take a long bail out shot.

As you can see Nowitzki is forced to take more late shots than Bryant consistently over the last 5 years. Over the last 8 years Nowitzki converted those shots with an average eFG% of 47.2, Bryant had 45.3. Only in the last two years Bryant was a bit more efficient than Nowitzki when taking those late shot clock shots.

How do we know those players were "forced" to take those shots based on those stats?

How many times has Kobe held onto the ball deep in the shot clock, or backed his man down and then taken the shot? That's not forced. Forced would be if he receives the ball with under 3 or 4 seconds deep on the perimeter, which is something that happens a solid 3 to 4 times a game.

Likewise, does Dirk take every single shot to end quarters? Is he the guy that heaves half/full court shots? I wonder if those types of attempts are factored in.

Whatever the case, I don't think it's fair to conclude that those are forced because we really don't know.

[Vinsanity420]

Kobe is extremely efficient... I lived in LA for about 6 months this year, and watched just about every Laker game.. for over at least half the games what happened was Kobe ran the triangle, whenever his team comes up with nothing, they pass it back out to Kobe - who then has to take a tough, guarded perimeter shot, and bail them out. Look at the 3rd Quarter of Game 3 in the Boston vs LA series... that happens a LOT with the Lakers during the course of the season.

Though of course, in any thread you mention Kobe Bryant, someone comes out and says HAHAHAH HE AIN'T JORDAN.

But honestly, who cares? Fact is, Kobe Bryant is a legend, a winner, and by the time he retires he'll be widely regarded as a Top 10 player of all time.

[Jimmy76]

Though of course, in any thread you mention Kobe Bryant, someone comes out and says HAHAHAH HE AIN'T JORDAN.

you dont think this comes from kobe fans pushing him over jordan constantly?

[Harry_Seaward]

So Kobe is the only superstar that has to take "bad" contested shots deep in the shot clock?

Wow. He also walks on water and can predict the future, doesn't he?

Surely Wade or James don't take those shots........................................................................

[semi-sentient]

So Kobe is the only superstar that has to take "bad" contested shots deep in the shot clock?

Did you really interpret the past few posts as Kobe being the only superstar that takes "bad" contested shots deep in the shot clock?

If so, you should really try reading a little more carefully.

[Jordan23Forever]

Kobe is extremely efficient... I lived in LA for about 6 months this year, and watched just about every Laker game.. for over at least half the games what happened was Kobe ran the triangle, whenever his team comes up with nothing, they pass it back out to Kobe - who then has to take a tough, guarded perimeter shot, and bail them out. Look at the 3rd Quarter of Game 3 in the Boston vs LA series... that happens a LOT with the Lakers during the course of the season.

Though of course, in any thread you mention Kobe Bryant, someone comes out and says HAHAHAH HE AIN'T JORDAN.

But honestly, who cares? Fact is, Kobe Bryant is a legend, a winner, and by the time he retires he'll be widely regarded as a Top 10 player of all time.

Jordan took just as many, if not more "bail-out" shots than Kobe has, so that argument doesn't fly in this case. Also, Kobe is already top 10 all-time; he doesn't need to wait until he retires for that to be true.

[Shot Clock]

Kobe is efficient until the Final's for some reason

[Jordan23Forever]

Thought I'd compare Kobe to the other non-bigs that are generally considered "greater" than him, so here are the results:

Code: Select all

Player   RS TS%   LG AVG   DIFF       PS TS%   LG AVG   DIFF
======   =======================      =======================
Magic    .610     .538     +.072      .595     .537     +.058
Jordan   .569     .535     +.034      .568     .541     +.027
Kobe     .557     .529     +.028      .543     .527     +.016
Bird     .564     .537     +.027      .551     .537     +.014

Note that for the PS (post-season) TS%, I only calculated the LG AVG (league average) in the years that the above players actually participlated so it could be as accurate as possible.

Magic is on his own tier in terms of efficiency differential for non-bigs, followed by Jordan, Kobe, and then Bird.

Jordan's RS TS% is obviously effected by his Wizard days, so I think he's on his own level above Kobe and Bird.

After that it's pretty close between Kobe and Bird, and that's without considering Kobe's numbers during his non-starter/teenage years that drop his averages.

Anyway, food for thought.

Nice work. Can you do that for each of them through age 30? I'd appreciate it. Magic's numbers are only through age 31 anyway. And while Magic's efficiency will be at the top regardless, it should be noted that both the Lakers' style of play (lots of easy transition buckets) and Magic's lower ppg volume as compared to the other three contribute to that.

[Harry_Seaward]

So Kobe is the only superstar that has to take "bad" contested shots deep in the shot clock?

Did you really interpret the past few posts as Kobe being the only superstar that takes "bad" contested shots deep in the shot clock?

If so, you should really try reading a little more carefully.

Then if he's NOT the only one...why would that even be a factor or brought up in the conversation? Clearly that poster brought it up to try and imply that it is what keeps Kobe's shooting efficiencies lower then they should be..that directly implies that Kobe is the only one that does that.

Cause that applies to pretty much every superstar.....

[Dat Pass]

Though of course, in any thread you mention Kobe Bryant, someone comes out and says HAHAHAH HE AIN'T JORDAN.

you dont think this comes from kobe fans pushing him over jordan constantly?

People keep saying this.. But are there really THAT many people that think Kobe is better than Jordan? I hardly ever hear someone say that. And I just ignore the ones that do.