Is Kobe really an inefficient scorer?

[mysticbb]

Normalizing the ts% of Jordan and Bryant to an average league ts% of 50 in each season gives an average value for Jordan of 54.4 and 52.9 for Bryant. Thus Jordan was indeed more efficient as a scorer than Bryant in comparison to the league average. BUT Bryant was NEVER an inefficient scorer. Whoever said that has no clue.

Well, there could be made one argument for Bryant being only a bit more than average efficient during the earlier stage of his career when he played with O'Neal. Bryant as a full time starter had a 55.2 ts% in games with Shaquille O'Neal and a 52.7 ts% without O'Neal. Shaquille O'Neal's presence really helped Bryant in terms of efficiency, but also limited his volume. Anyway, even if we take that into account Bryant was still at worst average efficient as a scorer. In no way was he inefficient.

Another point regarding the evolution of the scoring efficiency by wing scorers: From 1985 to 1994 the average scoring efficiency stayed rather constant at around 52.9 ts%, also the eFG% stayed constant at around 48.5. The fg% decreased due to the increasing number of 3pt field goals. Then the league shortened the distance of the 3pt line and the average ts% jump to around 54.5 ts% for perimeter scorers. Increasing the distance of the 3pt line led to a drop of the average ts% to 52. The players took just more 3pt shots as they should. The lockout season was an absolute down in terms of scoring efficiency. After that it went back to 52 ts%, but decreased further to 51 ts% until 2004. Then the league changed the interpretation of the non-handchecking rule and since then the ts% is increasing from 52 ts% in 2005 to now pretty constant 53.5 ts% over the last 5 years.

[astrallite]

Well clearly this thread proves one thing: Lebron James and Dwayne Wade are better than Michael Jordan.

[LAKESHOW]

kobes not better than jordan yet, he only has 5 rings.

[Jordan23Forever]

Normalizing the ts% of Jordan and Bryant to an average league ts% of 50 in each season gives an average value for Jordan of 54.4 and 52.9 for Bryant. Thus Jordan was indeed more efficient as a scorer than Bryant in comparison to the league average. BUT Bryant was NEVER an inefficient scorer. Whoever said that has no clue.

But the league average isn't 50%, it's been between 52-54% for 25 years now. Here's how they each compare to the actual league average during each of their respective years between age 21-30:

Kobe: 55.8% TS (percent above league avg: +2.9% ; peak above league avg: +3.9%)
Jordan: 59.1% TS (percent above league avg: +5.4% ; peak above league avg: +7.7%)

As you can see, the difference is a bit more than 1.4% -- it's 3.3% on average. And Jordan was literally twice as far above the league average as Kobe was in both average and peak seasons.

I've never said Kobe is inefficient, mind you, only comparatively inefficient. And that's only a problem for some people because they want to make him out to be something he's not (viz., as good as or better than Jordan).

[tsherkin]

I think his point, J23F, was to give a round number for the league average. He's normalizing the way you normalize PER for a league average of 15, only for a league average value of 50 instead.

It shows a +4.4 for MJ and a +2.9 for Kobe, which is roughly the same as what you're looking at.

Am I right, mystic?

[kasino]

I wouldn't call him inefficient but should be criticized for being a career 45% shooter.
Its kinda crazy to be mad at that when he makes 8 of 19 shoots. I mean one more bucker(9 for 19) he becomes is a career 50% player.
I criticise him for his shoot selection but its his shoot that got him to where he is. He simply isn't(wasn't) the athlete Jordan/Lebron/Wade were(are). Hopefully his mid-range game can keep him in contention for a few more rings.
You know how Magic/Jordan/Tim are so far the best at their position I think Stockton/Kobe/KG are the prototype.

[Harry_Seaward]

kobes not better than jordan yet, he only has 5 rings.

and less MVPs, and less finals MVPs, and less impressive playoff performances, and less impressive finals performances, and last but not least SWAGGER and GAMBLING skills

[lilojmayo]

lol @ Kobe fans. So desperate.

Also, how about we take them from age 21-31 rather than for their careers, which includes numerous past-prime seasons for MJ.

O.J. Mayo: 55.2 TS%, 51.6 eFG%, 45.8 FG%, 38.3 3P%, 80.9 FT%
Kobe Bryant: 54.5 TS%, 48.8 eFG%, 45.7 FG%, 32.9 3P%, 81.1 FT%

for someone who has watched a lot OJ games and Kobe games and with OJ being slightly more efficient than Kobe numbers wise. I am smart enough to know that neither for these 2 or close to being Jordan efficient.

They aren't inefficient like Areans/Allen Iverson. However they aren't super efficient. Jordan had seasons here he shot 54% FG. However, they are both volume guys that get hot or get cold a lot. So it averages out to 45-46%. They have a lot of range so 3 pointers will be there.


In terms of Kobe since he shoots more he is capable for going 8-24 just as easy as he as he can go 15/24. It is like flipping a coin. The number of games kobe has shot 40% on 20 or more FGA or below blows Jordan's out the water.

[gold_leader64]

The problem with disregarding FG% in favor of TS% is that the more missed shots, the more opportunities for the opposition to grab a defensive rebound and score on the other end. So, a player may have a higher TS%, but actually have less of an offensive benefit to his team because of poor shot selection that lead to more baskets on the other end.

It doesn't take a stat for anybody who has watched Kobe's career. He has a tendency to fall in love with his jumper. For a player of his calibre, he often times has horrible shot selection. And he's inconsistent with his jumper. He could brick wide open shots and drain a fade away 21 footer over two defenders in his face. That's just Kobe. He's a streaky shooter. When he's hot though, he hits some of the most amazingly difficult shots ever. But that's what you get with him. He can change from quarter to quarter.

[Father Time]

It doesn't take a stat for anybody who has watched Kobe's career. He has a tendency to fall in love with his jumper. For a player of his calibre, he often times has horrible shot selection. And he's inconsistent with his jumper. He could brick wide open shots and drain a fade away 21 footer over two defenders in his face. That's just Kobe. He's a streaky shooter. When he's hot though, he hits some of the most amazingly difficult shots ever. But that's what you get with him. He can change from quarter to quarter.

QFT.

[kombayn]

The problem with disregarding FG% in favor of TS% is that the more missed shots, the more opportunities for the opposition to grab a defensive rebound and score on the other end. So, a player may have a higher TS%, but actually have less of an offensive benefit to his team because of poor shot selection that lead to more baskets on the other end.

It doesn't take a stat for anybody who has watched Kobe's career. He has a tendency to fall in love with his jumper. For a player of his calibre, he often times has horrible shot selection. And he's inconsistent with his jumper. He could brick wide open shots and drain a fade away 21 footer over two defenders in his face. That's just Kobe. He's a streaky shooter. When he's hot though, he hits some of the most amazingly difficult shots ever. But that's what you get with him. He can change from quarter to quarter.

You also get 81 points... Believe that.

[KINGD]

lol @ Kobe fans. So desperate.

Also, how about we take them from age 21-31 rather than for their careers, which includes numerous past-prime seasons for MJ.

O.J. Mayo: 55.2 TS%, 51.6 eFG%, 45.8 FG%, 38.3 3P%, 80.9 FT%
Kobe Bryant: 54.5 TS%, 48.8 eFG%, 45.7 FG%, 32.9 3P%, 81.1 FT%




.

Except Kobe was doing it at 27 PPG while Mayo was at like 18 PPG. Not really close.

[kombayn]

lol @ Kobe fans. So desperate.

Also, how about we take them from age 21-31 rather than for their careers, which includes numerous past-prime seasons for MJ.

O.J. Mayo: 55.2 TS%, 51.6 eFG%, 45.8 FG%, 38.3 3P%, 80.9 FT%
Kobe Bryant: 54.5 TS%, 48.8 eFG%, 45.7 FG%, 32.9 3P%, 81.1 FT%




.

Except Kobe was doing it at 27 PPG while Mayo was at like 18 PPG. Not really close.

THANK YOU! And how many game-winners has O.J. Mayo hit? Kobe haters are ridiculous, respect a great player. Of course he had a terrible shot selection, you don't think Jordan didn't either? Please.

[shawngoat23]

He's definitely not inefficient, especially on such volume which few players can reach.

However, if you compare him to the other top 10-15 players of all-time, he suffers by comparison. Most of the other guys were bigs, which makes it a bit unfair, but even in comparison with PGs, SGs, and SFs like Jordan, Magic, Bird, West, Erving, and Robertson, that is also the case. He certainly is less efficient than those guys, but not to such a large extent that you'd call him "an inefficient scorer". That would be an unfair criticism.

Although it's difficult to compare stats across eras, I think you'll see that trend bear out regardless of whether you choose to use "absolute" efficiency marks such as TS%, or whether you choose to account for the differences in TS% across eras. (By that last comment, I don't mean it as an indictment of the quality of offense in the current era, just that rule changes do effect how offensive players perform. For instance, during Kobe's own career, the rules from 1996-2004 were not particularly favorable to perimeter players, whereas post-2005, the rules have favored perimeter players.)

[dawn_wan]

people in the end... who cares.

the man is a champion.

[mysticbb]

I think his point, J23F, was to give a round number for the league average. He's normalizing the way you normalize PER for a league average of 15, only for a league average value of 50 instead.

It shows a +4.4 for MJ and a +2.9 for Kobe, which is roughly the same as what you're looking at.

Am I right, mystic?

That is correct, sir.

Using 50 instead of the "real" average just make the comparison a bit easier. Above 50 means above average and below just below. I could have used the "real" league average over that time span, but that wouldn't change the conclusion anyway.

[lilojmayo]

Also, how about we take them from age 21-31 rather than for their careers, which includes numerous past-prime seasons for MJ.

O.J. Mayo: 55.2 TS%, 51.6 eFG%, 45.8 FG%, 38.3 3P%, 80.9 FT%
Kobe Bryant: 54.5 TS%, 48.8 eFG%, 45.7 FG%, 32.9 3P%, 81.1 FT%






THANK YOU! And how many game-winners has O.J. Mayo hit?[/quote]


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIH5hy8b3Us[/youtube]
1 min mark.
he has 1 game winner in his career. mid way in the season with 5 seconds left in the game.That's not the point, I wasn't compare their games on that point. I was comparing their shooting efficiency which is very similar as you see. Even their midrange is basically the same. Kobe is 41.5 % FG from 16-23 ft out. OJ is at 40.5% FG. They both have 3 point range also.

[laronprofit9]

Also this should nullify any argument that Shaq made Kobe more efficient in the playoffs.

5 out of Kobe's Top 6 fg% in the playoffs come after his playing career with Shaq.

05-06: FG%: 50% TS%: 59% eFG%: 55% W/Out Shaq

07-08: FG%: 48% TS%: 58% eFG%: 51% W/Out Shaq

00-01: FG%: 47% TS%: 56% eFG%: 49% w/ Shaq

06-07: FG%: 46% TS%: 56% eFG%: 50% W/Out Shaq

09-10: FG%: 46% TS%: 57% eFG%: 51% W/Out Shaq

08-09: FG%: 46% TS%: 56% eFG%: 49% W/Out Shaq

The only season where Kobe had comparable efficiency to his post-Shaq playoff runs was in 00-01.

I give full-credit to Shaq for helping Kobe with his first 3 rings. He was the most dominant player in the league, and had a top 3 peak of all time imo. He was the man, and he deserved all 3 Finals MVP awards. He was the best player in the league easily during that stretch. No one was even close. Kobe was option #2. He was not 1b as many people want to say. The early 00's 3-peat Lakers was clearly Shaq's Team.

With that said, people who always debated why Kobe's fg% was always a bit higher than say AI was due to playing with Shaq. However that is not the case, his best fg% as a player came after Shaq. Also to note his best ever was without Shaq or Gasol. His 1st and 4th best efficiency seasons were without Shaq or Gasol.

Kobe without Shaq is a consistent TS% of 56% in the playoffs. Which is very good for a perimeter player. Considering the majority of his offense post-Shaq has been on mostly Jumpers.

[mysticbb]

Also this should nullify any argument that Shaq made Kobe more efficient in the playoffs.

5 out of Kobe's Top 6 fg% in the playoffs come after his playing career with Shaq.

Actually that is not surprisingly at all, because all of those playoffs were after 2004, thus they were effected by the new interpretation of the non-handcheck rule. And the trend is pretty clear regarding this. The ts% for wing scorers increased from 51 ts% in 2004 to 53.5 ts% from 2006 to 2010. Take those 2.5 percentage points off and you will get a better impression. But still, the scoring efficiency in the playoffs for Bryant from 2006 to 2010 is higher than what he had before. I just would like to see his scoring efficiency in the playoffs from 1999 to 2004 without O'Neal, but that didn't happen at all. But we have 49 games in which Bryant played for the Lakers without O'Neal during that time span and the ts% dropped down to 52.7 ts% from 55.2 ts% with Shaquille O'Neal. That is not something which should be easily ignored. Especially when we taking into account that the Lakers were 23-26 in games without O'Neal and with Bryant, while 30-10 with O'Neal and without Bryant. O'Neal's ts% was also 59.3 ts% without Bryant and 58.3 ts% with Bryant. Thus Bryant didn't help O'Neal in terms of scoring efficiency at all.

[Mamba Venom]

If someone went through the games and made a stat where the Lakers dump Kobe the ball the for the last few secs of the shot clock they would realize no player in NBA history is forced to take so many bad shots.

Kobe does it to himself to just as all great scorers do but just check the stats on it the past few years.