Best Playoff Unit of the Past 5 Years???

[Wannabe MEP]

This is the "Overall Rating" from all the units from 2007-2011 playoffs with at least a +10 rating for a minimum of 100 minutes in the playoffs. Overall Rating is Offensive Rating - Defensive Rating, each of which is just points per 100 possessions.

34.87
23.81
21.08
20.38
20.37
17.24
15.52
15.14
13.44
12.55
12.45
11.82
10.96
10.62
10.31
10.12

So . . . 34.87 is absolutely ridiculous. Total domination. I don't think this can possibly be a fluke: I consider 100 minutes of playoff basketball to be a pretty solid threshold.

Care to guess who that unit is? (If you frequent the same stats sites that I do, I'm sure you could actually look this up...but that just kill the fun, wouldn't it?)

[Wannabe MEP]

Nobody wants to play??

In attempt to evoke some responses, here are the conference finalists from the past five seasons, in this order:
1) Champion
2) Runner-up
3) Western Conference Finalists
4) Eastern Conference Finalists

Most--but not quite all--of the units from my list were on teams that made the conference finals. That 34.87 unit was indeed on a conference finalist team.

2007
San Antonio
Cleveland
Utah
Detroit

2008
Boston
LA
San Antonio
Detroit

2009
LA
Orlando
Denver
Cleveland

2010
LA
Boston
Phoenix
Orlando

2011
Dallas
Miami
OKC
Chicago

[Ruhiel]

2008 Boston? for no.1

[Wannabe MEP]

2008 Boston? for no.1

I'm looking for a unit...I'm assuming you mean Rondo, Ray, Pierce, KG, Perkins?

They're on the list, but not #1, and not actually as high as you might think. I'll have to come back to this, because I think there's some pretty interesting analysis about the Celtics the last few years...

[Father Time]

Fisher
Kobe
Ariza
Odom
Pau

2009??

[Wannabe MEP]

Those probably would have been my first two guesses, and they're up there...

34.87
23.81
21.08
20.38
20.37
17.24
15.52
15.14
13.44
12.55 . . 2009 Lakers: Fish, Kobe, Ariza, Odom, Gasol . . . 115.13 . . . 102.58
12.45
11.82
10.96
10.62
10.31
10.12 . . 2008 Celtics: Rondo, Ray, Pierce, KG, Perkins . . . 106.08 . . . 95.96

Anything in the +10 range is very, very good--obviously good enough to win a title. No way does this minimize those two units. But part of the excellence of these two groups is that they are easy to build around: you can mix-and-match and you still have a good unit on the court. Replace any two or three of these guys and you still can score and defend.

For example, Odom-Gasol was the Lakers' best frontcourt, but it was ultimately their depth that won: the Lakers always had two of Odom-Gasol-Bynum on the court. Nobody can match that for 48 minutes.

[giberish]

The Kidd/Terry/Marion/Dirk/Chandler unit was great this year. I'd expect them to at least be one of the +20 or more units.

Any combo with Westbrook/Harden/Durant/Collison+ 5th guy did really well this year as well, but I'm not sure that any 5th guy ends up with sufficient minutes for the cutoff.

[Ruhiel]

I dont understand what this is outside of trying to evaluate what unit was most effective.
Is this going to be a "6th man"/small-bench unit type deal?
Can we please get the answer already

Spurs with Nasterovic? Cant take it! Id like to see if other metrics agree whatever unit is at top.

[Wannabe MEP]

The Kidd/Terry/Marion/Dirk/Chandler unit was great this year. I'd expect them to at least be one of the +20 or more units.

Got it.

34.87 . . 2011 Mavs: Kidd, Terry, Marion, Nowitzki, Chandler . . 125.57 . . 90.70
23.81 . . 2011 Celtics: Rondo, Ray, Pierce, KG, Jermaine . . . 115.13 . . . 91.32
21.08 . . 2011 Heat: Chalmers, Wade, LeBron, Bosh, JoelAnthony . . 118.95 . . 97.87
20.38 . . 2008 Pistons: Billups, Rip, Prince, Maxiell, Rasheed . . . 118.96 . . . 98.58
20.37 . . 2011 Mavs: Barea, Terry, Peja, Dirk, Haywood . . . 137.04 . . . 116.67
17.24 . . 2009 Cavs: Mo, Delonte, LeBron, Varejao, Ilgauskas . . . 119.55 . . . 102.31
15.52 . . 2008 Hornets: Paul, Peja, MoPeterson, West, Chandler . . . 115.52 . . . 100.00
15.14 . . 2007 Nets: Kidd, VC, RJefferson, MikkiMoore, JasonCollins . . 109.57 . . 94.43
13.44 . . 2007 Pistons: Billups, Rip, Prince, Rasheed, Webber . . . 115.61 . . . 102.17
12.55 . . 2009 Lakers: Fish, Kobe, Ariza, Odom, Gasol . . . 115.13 . . . 102.58
12.45 . . 2009 Nuggets: Billups, Dahntay, Carmelo, Kenyon, Nene . . 114.88 . . 102.43
11.82 . . 2008 Lakers: Fish, Kobe, Radmanovic, Odom, Gasol . . . 110.06 . . . 98.24
10.96 . . 2010 Lakers: Fish, Kobe, Artest, Odom, Gasol . . . 120.90 . . . 109.94
10.62 . . 2010 Magic: Jameer, VC, Barnes, Rashard, Dwight . . . 116.39 . . 105.77
10.31 . . 2007 Pistons: Billups, Rip, Prince, Rasheed, McDyess . . . 100.52 . . 90.22
10.12 . . 2008 Celtics: Rondo, Ray, Pierce, KG, Perkins . . . 106.08 . . . 95.96

The numbers for that Mavs crew are just ridiculous. They absolutely beat the sh*t out of Miami (offensive rating: 130.51, defensive rating: 92.44), most of the time against all three of the stooges. Look at what they did round by round, then contrast with the 2008 Celtics starters.

2011 Kidd/Terry/Marion/Dirk/Chandler
Portland +37.98
OKC +36.67
LA +19.73
Miami +38.07

2008 Rondo/Allen/Pierce/KG/Perkins
Atlanta +23.45
Cleveland -3.79
Detroit +14.68
LA -0.06

[Ruhiel]

The Kidd/Terry/Marion/Dirk/Chandler unit was great this year. I'd expect them to at least be one of the +20 or more units.

Got it.

34.87 . . 2011 Mavs: Kidd, Terry, Marion, Nowitzki, Chandler . . 125.57 . . 90.70
23.81 . . 2011 Celtics: Rondo, Ray, Pierce, KG, Jermaine . . . 115.13 . . . 91.32
21.08 . . 2011 Heat: Chalmers, Wade, LeBron, Bosh, JoelAnthony . . 118.95 . . 97.87
20.38 . . 2008 Pistons: Billups, Rip, Prince, Maxiell, Rasheed . . . 118.96 . . . 98.58
20.37 . . 2011 Mavs: Barea, Terry, Peja, Dirk, Haywood . . . 137.04 . . . 116.67
17.24 . . 2009 Cavs: Mo, Delonte, LeBron, Varejao, Ilgauskas . . . 119.55 . . . 102.31
15.52 . . 2008 Hornets: Paul, Peja, MoPeterson, West, Chandler . . . 115.52 . . . 100.00
15.14 . . 2007 Nets: Kidd, VC, RJefferson, MikkiMoore, JasonCollins . . 109.57 . . 94.43
13.44 . . 2007 Pistons: Billups, Rip, Prince, Rasheed, Webber . . . 115.61 . . . 102.17
12.55 . . 2009 Lakers: Fish, Kobe, Ariza, Odom, Gasol . . . 115.13 . . . 102.58
12.45 . . 2009 Nuggets: Billups, Dahntay, Carmelo, Kenyon, Nene . . 114.88 . . 102.43
11.82 . . 2008 Lakers: Fish, Kobe, Radmanovic, Odom, Gasol . . . 110.06 . . . 98.24
10.96 . . 2010 Lakers: Fish, Kobe, Artest, Odom, Gasol . . . 120.90 . . . 109.94
10.62 . . 2010 Magic: Jameer, VC, Barnes, Rashard, Dwight . . . 116.39 . . 105.77
10.31 . . 2007 Pistons: Billups, Rip, Prince, Rasheed, McDyess . . . 100.52 . . 90.22
10.12 . . 2008 Celtics: Rondo, Ray, Pierce, KG, Perkins . . . 106.08 . . . 95.96

The numbers for that Mavs crew are just ridiculous. They absolutely beat the sh*t out of Miami (offensive rating: 130.51, defensive rating: 92.44), most of the time against all three of the stooges. Look at what they did round by round, then contrast with the 2008 Celtics starters.

2011 Kidd/Terry/Marion/Dirk/Chandler
Portland +37.98
OKC +36.67
LA +19.73
Miami +38.07

2008 Rondo/Allen/Pierce/KG/Perkins
Atlanta +23.45
Cleveland -3.79
Detroit +14.68
LA -0.06

frikkin Hawks. Well I dont know what metric your using but this basically adds up.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... aders.html

Tyson Chandler was rated as the 5th best player (per minute) by WS/48.
Total Rebound %, DEF Reb%, Jason Kidd getting him the best possible shots.
Marion, Chandler, Kidd took the best shots possible matched up well with the league defensively and let Nowitzki shoot his shots and post up etc.

Guess Im not surprised

[Wannabe MEP]

I dont understand what this is outside of trying to evaluate what unit was most effective.

Nothing fancy going on here. Just taking some simple, straight-forward data and coming at it from a unique angle. All this is on basketballvalue.com: I just repackaged it. I think it leads to some interesting analysis:

1) 2008 Celtics vs. 2011 Celtics
It's pretty hard to argue that Perkins was the linchpin that was missing in 2011: the starters played great basketball without him. The problem was the lack of a bench. A healthy Shaq might have made a (literally) huge difference, but it wasn't just the bigs: everything coming off the bench was absolutely terrible this year.

What nobody realizes is that in 2008 several bench guys like Eddie House, Sam Cassell, Leon Powe, and most importantly James Posey played a huge role in the Celtics title.

2) Why LeBron James never won a title with the Cavs??
2007 playoff minutes for the Cavs top 2 units:
338.65 minutes: Gooden - Hughes - Ilgauskas - LeBron - Pavlovic -7.57
87.53 minutes: Gibson - LeBron - Jones - Marshall - Varejao 37.38

Surround LeBron with Varejao and shooters--in particular a stretch 4--and the Cavs just might dominate. Epic fail for the coaching staff for not figuring that one out.

3) The Mavs might have discovered a magic formula
Barea, Jose - Terry, Jason - Stojakovic, Peja - Nowitzki, Dirk - Chandler, Tyson 47.51
Kidd, Jason - Terry, Jason - Stojakovic, Peja - Nowitzki, Dirk - Chandler, Tyson 38.28
Kidd, Jason - Terry, Jason - Marion, Shawn - Nowitzki, Dirk - Chandler, Tyson 27.53
Kidd, Jason - Terry, Jason - Marion, Shawn - Nowitzki, Dirk - Haywood, Brendan 22.32
Kidd, Jason - Barea, Jose - Terry, Jason - Nowitzki, Dirk - Haywood, Brendan 18.46
Kidd, Jason - Terry, Jason - Stevenson - Nowitzki, Dirk - Chandler, Tyson 17.16
Barea, Jose - Terry, Jason - Stojakovic - Nowitzki, Dirk - Haywood, Brendan 10.25
(APM values)

Terry + Dirk + a solid defensive center who can run the pick-and-roll + a decent mix of 3-point shooting and defense at the other two spots = maybe the best basketball we've seen since...???

[LPKingsFan]

Interesting post, thanks for sharing. Shocking that the Nets rated so high with a frontcourt tandem of Mikki Moore and Jason Collins!

[CrazyB0y]

great post

the nr. 1 unit (Dallas) is also the possible best clutch unit in the past 10 years.
the-painted-area wrote a nice little article about that group

[Wannabe MEP]

Shocking that the Nets rated so high with a frontcourt tandem of Mikki Moore and Jason Collins!

Yeah, nothing flashy there, but the most important question for a frontcourt is whether they can hold their own defensively. Those two can. The offense can come from elsewhere.

[Wannabe MEP]

great post

the nr. 1 unit (Dallas) is also the possible best clutch unit in the past 10 years.
the-painted-area wrote a nice little article about that group

http://thepaintedarea.blogspot.com/2011/06/on-jason-kidd-and-win-time-and-greatest.html
That is a pretty good article.

I do believe that the emphasis on "clutch" is overrated here, however. These guys were indeed clutch, but that's simply because they were really, really good...and because they happened to get a lot of their minutes at the end of close games. If that group would have started (read: if Jason Terry would have started), then Dallas would have jumped to a big lead. Instead, they kept holding out the Terry-Nowitzki combo until later, usually until Dallas was losing. But if you study the play-by-plays, the Mavs would pretty much always make a run with Terry-Nowitzki in, whether that was at the end of a close game or at the end of the first quarter.

[CrazyB0y]

great post

the nr. 1 unit (Dallas) is also the possible best clutch unit in the past 10 years.
the-painted-area wrote a nice little article about that group

http://thepaintedarea.blogspot.com/2011/06/on-jason-kidd-and-win-time-and-greatest.html
That is a pretty good article.

I do believe that the emphasis on "clutch" is overrated here, however. These guys were indeed clutch, but that's simply because they were really, really good...and because they happened to get a lot of their minutes at the end of close games. If that group would have started (read: if Jason Terry would have started), then Dallas would have jumped to a big lead. Instead, they kept holding out the Terry-Nowitzki combo until later, usually until Dallas was losing. But if you study the play-by-plays, the Mavs would pretty much always make a run with Terry-Nowitzki in, whether that was at the end of a close game or at the end of the first quarter.

true

just want to note that it's basically the age that kept the Mavs from using their top lineup more often.

age breakdown:
Kidd - 38 yo
Terry - 34 yo
Marion - 33 yo
Dirk - 33 yo
and the spring chicken (Chandler): 28 yo

they are the best unit of a long time right now - but can you imagine this very same unit together in their physical prime and some time to gel?

[Jonny Blaze]

I do believe that the emphasis on "clutch" is overrated here, however. These guys were indeed clutch, but that's simply because they were really, really good...and because they happened to get a lot of their minutes at the end of close games. If that group would have started (read: if Jason Terry would have started), then Dallas would have jumped to a big lead. Instead, they kept holding out the Terry-Nowitzki combo until later, usually until Dallas was losing. But if you study the play-by-plays, the Mavs would pretty much always make a run with Terry-Nowitzki in, whether that was at the end of a close game or at the end of the first quarter.

Interesting analysis which makes a lot of sense.

A lot of that is also due to the fact that the Mavs havent really had a legit 3rd scorer since.....shoot I dont even know....probably 2006-07 with Stackhouse and Devin Harris.

Everyone else that plays in the 4th quarter for the Mavs is essentially a "role player" by role player I mean they have a certain role whether it be slasher, rebounder, shooter, defensive player.

Jet and Dirk are the only two that can really consistently create their own shot and score.

[qianlong]

Some quick thoughts.
A lot of Detroit teams, give merit where merit its due. They were a consistent and deep team, and if there were numbers from previous years I suspect there would be more. Billups, RIP, and Prince were the backbone of the team. In addition, notice that Billups appears also on another team, he is really a good floor leader, it goes unnoticed but he deserves more credit.
Similarly other players that appear on more than one team: Kidd, Lebron, Chandler. We already know how good is Lebron is good, but more interesting are the other two.
Another interesting element would be to add the coaches to those teams.

[ardee]

Where do you get these stats?

[CrazyB0y]

basketballvalue.com

82games.com

there are many sources