Raw plus/minus for 93-94, 94-95, 95-96 seasons

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Re: Raw plus/minus for 93-94, 94-95, 95-96 seasons 

Post#181 » by ronnymac2 » Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:16 am

Quotatious wrote:
ronnymac2 wrote:Well let's start with the perimeter players since it's easier to compare. What makes you say KD and T-Mac are so much better than peak Penny? Penny was the best post player, passer/playmaker, and decision-maker out of the 3, and he was a devastating scorer, too.

I think that Durant's scoring volume/efficiency combination, which is one of the very best of all-time, makes him a clearly better overall player than Penny. Also, Durant is the better rebounder (well, that's obvious, he's a 6'10''/6'11'' SF compared to a 6'7'' combo guard), and while Penny was a much better ballhandler/playmaker, KD isn't bad in these areas anymore (speaking of 2014 Durant). Defensively, I don't think there's any significant gap, to be honest. Penny was a bit better, but not by much, and he wasn't really a game changer on D. Above average, also got 2 steals per game, but that's about it. Durant has a really big edge in stats like PER and WS/48 (29.8 to 24.6 PER, 29.5 to 22.9 WS/48).

I think that Durant is already roughly in the same ballpark as peak Wade, Kobe and T-Mac (top 15-20 level), while Hardaway to me is on the very same level as Drexler (about top 25-30) - still really great, but more like a second tier superstar, not top 3 level, like Kobe/Wade/T-Mac/Durant.

Now, how about T-Mac? He's IMO at the same level as Durant, in terms of peak. He's a much less efficient scorer than KD (although still very efficient, +4.5% league average TS, +3.2% eFG in 2003), but he also played on a worse team, where he had to create a lot more for himself on a consistent basis, and a lot more of Durant's shots were assisted on. McGrady was a better ballhandler and playmaker than Durant, in fact his AST/TOV% ratio was clearly better than Penny's, despite the fact that McGrady was a SG (T-Mac's assist/turnover ratio was +3.57, compared to +2.39 for PH), so combined with his advantage in terms of scoring/USG% (Penny was a bit more efficient as a scorer than T-Mac, but their volume and usage% isn't even worth comparing), I think it's very clear that McGrady was the better overall offensive player. Penny was better defensively, but that's largely dependent on team structure - McGrady had to carry his team offensively, all by himself, so he couldn't give consistent effort defensively, while Penny played on a strong, winning team, so it was much easier for him to play well on both ends (even with Shaq missing a ton of RS games in 1996, Penny's team was still clearly better than T-Mac's, as Hardaway had Horace Grant, Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott - don't even get me started on Tracy's teammates in 2003...). Also, McGrady's advantage over Hardaway in PER and WS/48 is very similar to Durant's (really big).

It's true that Penny was the best post player of the 3, but how valuable is that in the grand scheme of things? I don't think it's all that important, to be honest. As a decision maker, I think that T-Mac easily rivals Penny, seeing his overall efficiency (on a bad team, which is IMO a pretty important notion here).

I wouldn't call Penny a "devastating" scorer. He was certainly a very, very good scorer, but "devastating" applies to Durant and McGrady (32 PPG on great efficiency is devastating, not 21-22 PPG on a very similar efficiency)


Good post. Penny's argument would center around the skillset advantages I've talked about as well as Orlando's team ORTGs, Penny's playoff performances, and Penny's portability (not that playing with Shaq is difficult, but we saw Penny prove it with and without Shaq, especially in 1997).

1995 Orlando put up a historic offense with Shaq and Penny leading the charge (+6.8, broke the vaunted 115 ORTG). This with Dennis Scott only playing 24 MPG and a thin bench (I swear those Shaq/Grant/Choker/Scott/Penny lineups put up 130 ORTGs on-court in 1995 and 1996, because their bench is bad). Penny was the lead playmaker (and only ball-handler in the starting lineup) and second leading scorer: 20.9 points, 7.2 assists, 59.9%TS. The turnovers are high, but again, Orlando's offense was truly elite, and technically they were above average at taking care of the ball in the REG SEA in 1995.

Penny was great in the playoffs, too, helping Orlando destroy Indy's defense with a 120 Team ORTG (Penny: 19.6 points, 18/38 on 3's, 64.5%TS). He and Shaq dominate against Houston, but they get little help.

Then 1996, Orlando with another strong offensive showing, buoyed by Penny (played 1,000+ minutes more than Shaq): 3rd-ranked 112.9 ORTG (+5.3, #1 in eFG% again). Penny with his peak REG SEA: 21.7 points, 7.1 assists, 60.5%TS, lowered the turnovers to 2.8 per game. Upped the USG% from 1995 yet improved his ORTG. He did something like 25/6/5 without Shaq in 1996, too.

In the playoffs, Penny helped ORL to historic offensive dominance in the first 2 rounds of the playoffs (120+ ORTG in both series), then went up against the GOAT perimeter defense (Jordan and Pippen) and dropped 25.5 points on 55.2%TS despite being the only ball-handler and crap shooting around him. Penny and Shaq were again the only players to play well.

Penny and Orlando battled injury in 1997 but then faced Miami (#1 defense, -6.1) in the first round. Penny dropped 31 points on 57.5%TS. Over the last 3 games in the series, Hardaway dropped 38.7 points, 8.3 rebounds, 4 assists, 2.3 steals, 1.7 blocks, 1.3 turnovers, 61.8%TS, 35.8 USG%, 130 individual ORTG. This was a defense that did a better job defending Michael Jordan than pretty much any defense ever did (MJ's stats: 30.2 points on 47.5%TS in the ECF).

I don't know. That 3-year stretch to me puts him in KD's and T-Mac's company. Penny never showed himself to be susceptible to any man defender slowing him down like KD has thanks to his elite post game (Tony Allen, even Chris Paul in 2014 for a limited time slowed KD). Penny did as well against an elite postseason defense with no help as T-Mac ever did, too. He co-lead an all-time elite offense in 1995.

I always thought Penny played solid defense, too. Normally he had to defend quick point guards because again, ORL's talented-but-unbalanced starting lineup forced his hand. But he played well against wings.
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Re: Raw plus/minus for 93-94, 94-95, 95-96 seasons 

Post#182 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Oct 5, 2014 6:17 pm

So people are aware, I'm going to move this over to the Stats board shortly.
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Re: Raw plus/minus for 93-94, 94-95, 95-96 seasons 

Post#183 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Jan 9, 2015 5:43 am

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Re: Raw plus/minus for 93-94, 94-95, 95-96 seasons 

Post#184 » by colts18 » Wed Jun 3, 2015 3:51 pm

Since the season is almost over, I am going to update some of the plus/minus records we have since 1994.

Here is an updated list for the top 10 total on court plus/minus from 1994-2015 (22 seasons):

Here is how to read this: on court Net +/-, on court per 100 poss, Net Plus/Minus per 100 poss

1. 96 Jordan +980, +16.7, +15.2
2. 15 Curry +911, +16.6, +17.8
3. 96 Pippen +899, +16.8, +11.8
4. 09 James +871, +15, +21.2
5. 15 Green +861, +16.5, +15.5
6. 97 Jordan +818, +14, +9.7
7. 97 Pippen +807, +13.9, +9
8. 08 Pierce +784, +14.2, +9.8
9. 03 Nowitzki +778, +12.6, +20.4
10. 97 Hornacek +775, +15.9, +18

Klay Thompson is at 11 with +773. For much of the season, Curry was on pace to break +1000 but he slowed down as the season wore on. He ended up finishing behind 96 MJ.

Top 8 in On court Net rating per 100 (Min. 1500 MP):
1. 05 Duncan +16.9
2. 96 Pippen +16.8
3. 96 Jordan +16.7
T4. 15 Curry +16.6
T4. 05 Ginobili +16.6
T4. 15 Bogut +16.6 (barely qualified)
T7. 15 Green +16.5
T7. 97 Ostertag +16.5

Curry barely behind MJ again.


Other notes:
Chris Paul joined the +20 Net Plus/Minus club this season joining the likes of 97 Laettner, 99 Kidd, 09 LeBron, 03 Dirk, 03 KG, and 04 KG.

Top 7
1. 03 KG +23.4
2. 09 LeBron +21.2
3. 99 Kidd +21.1
4. 15 Paul +20.9
5. 04 KG +20.7
6. 03 Dirk +20.4
7. 97 Laettner +20.1

Chris Paul was a +19.9 Net on Offense which cruises by 06 Kobe's record of +18.9.

Here are the top on court plus/minus in the playoffs from 97-15, min. 30 MPG and 10 GP (using NBA.com):

1. 99 Robinson +19.5
2. 10 Lewis +16.3
3. 01 Kobe +15.2
4. 01 Shaq +14.1
T5. 12 Duncan +13.8
T5. 15 Shumpert +13.8
7. 14 Leonard +13.4
8. 09 Odom +13.2
9. 15 Green +13.0
10. 09 Varejao +12.3

J.R. Smith is at +13.6 but is only 0.2 MPG from qualifying.
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Re: Raw plus/minus for 93-94, 94-95, 95-96 seasons 

Post#185 » by SideshowBob » Wed Jun 3, 2015 6:40 pm

Great stuff. I would recommend calling it Net On/Off instead of Plus/Minus though, or Net On/Off Plus/Minus
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Re: Raw plus/minus for 93-94, 94-95, 95-96 seasons 

Post#186 » by sp6r=underrated » Thu Jun 4, 2015 3:55 am

I have a question for the believers in the strong RAPM hypothesis who are big Hakeem fans.

On the PC board there is a small but vocal contingent that have always alleged Hakeem was a GOAT level player who got screwed over by terrible management.

His basic and advanced box score regular season stats have never really supported that view. His PS basic box score stats do jump up in a big way but even the advanced ones place him a step below someone like Jordan.

Thanks to the work of people in this thread and http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com we have approximate RAPM stats for admittedly the tail end of his career. This is Hakeem's league rank in RAPM

Code: Select all

Hakeem   League Rank   
1994         4   
1995         6   
1996         11   
1997         28   npi
1998         42   
1999         52   
2000         69   
2001         93   npi
2002         324   npi
2003         56   


KG, Shaq, Robinson and Duncan are probably the most prominent big men along with Hakeem during the last 30 years. The 2nd half of his career pails in comparison to 2nd half of the career KG, Robinson and Shaq. It doesn't look as good as Duncan who is below those 3 in this metric.

With that in mind does this eliminate or lower your belief that Hakeem was a GOAT level player?

I am especially interested in the views of those who still consider Hakeem a GOAT level player who also place high confidence in the strong RAPM hypothesis. How do you square the two?
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Re: Raw plus/minus for 93-94 season 

Post#187 » by sp6r=underrated » Thu Jun 4, 2015 4:05 am

Doctor MJ wrote:Very cool. Initial thoughts:

-Calm down about McMillan. He played limited minutes.


McMillian played 25.8 mpg. 2012 KG who you were touting as a top 5 player in the league in large part due to his RAPM only played 31.1 mpg. McMillian played 4.3 less minutes per game.

McMillian only played 2.3 mpg less than 05-07 Manu whose on/off stats are touted constantly.

Dismissal of Nate's RAPM is hard to justify on mpg standard based on prior precedent.
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Re: Raw plus/minus for 93-94 season 

Post#188 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jun 4, 2015 4:58 am

sp6r=underrated wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Very cool. Initial thoughts:

-Calm down about McMillan. He played limited minutes.


McMillian played 25.8 mpg. 2012 KG who you were touting as a top 5 player in the league in large part due to his RAPM only played 31.1 mpg. McMillian played 4.3 less minutes per game.

McMillian only played 2.3 mpg less than 05-07 Manu whose on/off stats are touted constantly.

Dismissal of Nate's RAPM is hard to justify on mpg standard based on prior precedent.


1. Well actually that's 5.3 minutes less, but regardless, you're acting as if I'm objecting simply because I don't like the number. The reason why 25 MPG is instantly skepticism inducing is that that's not typically a minutes total that teams choose to play for players they feel comfortable using in all situations. When you add that along with the fact that basically no one in the history of mankind has ever thought that McMillan was a superstar, it seems like quibbling with my shorthand is picking a strange battle.

This is not to say that playing 31 MPG makes above any and all concerns about there being "enough minutes", but realistically we simply know Garnett wasn't playing that few minutes because his coach was afraid he'd get exposed in other settings.

2. Of course Ginobili is a good thing for you to have brought here that serves as a preemptive rebuttal, but remember that Ginobili's reputation is served by giving us consistent +/- numbers for years and years and years. I don't remember all the context of this thread, but I know that I wasn't thinking of McMillan as a guy with a decade-long rack record of monster +/- numbers. Similarly if Ginobili only did this a few times, I'd be more skeptical of his MPG.

So no, it's not hard to justify at all if you understand the basis for the prior precedent.
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Re: Raw plus/minus for 93-94, 94-95, 95-96 seasons 

Post#189 » by lorak » Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:25 am

colts18 wrote:Since the season is almost over, I am going to update some of the plus/minus records we have since 1994.

Here is an updated list for the top 10 total on court plus/minus from 1994-2015 (22 seasons):

Here is how to read this: on court Net +/-, on court per 100 poss, Net Plus/Minus per 100 poss

1. 96 Jordan +980, +16.7, +15.2
2. 15 Curry +911, +16.6, +17.8
3. 96 Pippen +899, +16.8, +11.8
4. 09 James +871, +15, +21.2
5. 15 Green +861, +16.5, +15.5
6. 97 Jordan +818, +14, +9.7
7. 97 Pippen +807, +13.9, +9
8. 08 Pierce +784, +14.2, +9.8
9. 03 Nowitzki +778, +12.6, +20.4
10. 97 Hornacek +775, +15.9, +18

Klay Thompson is at 11 with +773. For much of the season, Curry was on pace to break +1000 but he slowed down as the season wore on. He ended up finishing behind 96 MJ.

Top 8 in On court Net rating per 100 (Min. 1500 MP):
1. 05 Duncan +16.9
2. 96 Pippen +16.8
3. 96 Jordan +16.7
T4. 15 Curry +16.6
T4. 05 Ginobili +16.6
T4. 15 Bogut +16.6 (barely qualified)
T7. 15 Green +16.5
T7. 97 Ostertag +16.5

Curry barely behind MJ again.


Other notes:
Chris Paul joined the +20 Net Plus/Minus club this season joining the likes of 97 Laettner, 99 Kidd, 09 LeBron, 03 Dirk, 03 KG, and 04 KG.

Top 7
1. 03 KG +23.4
2. 09 LeBron +21.2
3. 99 Kidd +21.1
4. 15 Paul +20.9
5. 04 KG +20.7
6. 03 Dirk +20.4
7. 97 Laettner +20.1


You used different methods to calculate net and that screws results for comparison purposes. For example MJ 1996 has 15.2 net, but if you use the same method for LeBron 2009, then his net would be 23.8, not 21.2. Also, some players are missing in your post, for example 1999 Marbusy has +30.5 net, 1999 Jones 25.3 and so on. Almost all data was posted before by me here: viewtopic.php?p=41100781#p41100781
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Re: Raw plus/minus for 93-94, 94-95, 95-96 seasons 

Post#190 » by colts18 » Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:10 pm

lorak wrote:
colts18 wrote:Since the season is almost over, I am going to update some of the plus/minus records we have since 1994.

Here is an updated list for the top 10 total on court plus/minus from 1994-2015 (22 seasons):

Here is how to read this: on court Net +/-, on court per 100 poss, Net Plus/Minus per 100 poss

1. 96 Jordan +980, +16.7, +15.2
2. 15 Curry +911, +16.6, +17.8
3. 96 Pippen +899, +16.8, +11.8
4. 09 James +871, +15, +21.2
5. 15 Green +861, +16.5, +15.5
6. 97 Jordan +818, +14, +9.7
7. 97 Pippen +807, +13.9, +9
8. 08 Pierce +784, +14.2, +9.8
9. 03 Nowitzki +778, +12.6, +20.4
10. 97 Hornacek +775, +15.9, +18

Klay Thompson is at 11 with +773. For much of the season, Curry was on pace to break +1000 but he slowed down as the season wore on. He ended up finishing behind 96 MJ.

Top 8 in On court Net rating per 100 (Min. 1500 MP):
1. 05 Duncan +16.9
2. 96 Pippen +16.8
3. 96 Jordan +16.7
T4. 15 Curry +16.6
T4. 05 Ginobili +16.6
T4. 15 Bogut +16.6 (barely qualified)
T7. 15 Green +16.5
T7. 97 Ostertag +16.5

Curry barely behind MJ again.


Other notes:
Chris Paul joined the +20 Net Plus/Minus club this season joining the likes of 97 Laettner, 99 Kidd, 09 LeBron, 03 Dirk, 03 KG, and 04 KG.

Top 7
1. 03 KG +23.4
2. 09 LeBron +21.2
3. 99 Kidd +21.1
4. 15 Paul +20.9
5. 04 KG +20.7
6. 03 Dirk +20.4
7. 97 Laettner +20.1


You used different methods to calculate net and that screws results for comparison purposes. For example MJ 1996 has 15.2 net, but if you use the same method for LeBron 2009, then his net would be 23.8, not 21.2. Also, some players are missing in your post, for example 1999 Marbusy has +30.5 net, 1999 Jones 25.3 and so on. Almost all data was posted before by me here: viewtopic.php?p=41100781#p41100781


I used the B-R numbers because they are more accurate than the estimates.

Btw, Marbury and Jones didn't have net ratings anywhere near that high. Your numbers messed up on them.
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Re: Raw plus/minus for 93-94, 94-95, 95-96 seasons 

Post#191 » by lorak » Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:21 pm

colts18 wrote:
lorak wrote:You used different methods to calculate net and that screws results for comparison purposes. For example MJ 1996 has 15.2 net, but if you use the same method for LeBron 2009, then his net would be 23.8, not 21.2. Also, some players are missing in your post, for example 1999 Marbusy has +30.5 net, 1999 Jones 25.3 and so on. Almost all data was posted before by me here: viewtopic.php?p=41100781#p41100781


I used the B-R numbers because they are more accurate than the estimates.


Of course they are, but if we want fair comparison we should use numbers with the same "standard error". Comparing net from b-r with estimated net (pre 2001) doesn't tell as much as comparing two estimates or two nets from b-r.

Btw, Marbury and Jones didn't have net ratings anywhere near that high. Your numbers messed up on them.


So what numbers they have according to your calculations?
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Re: Raw plus/minus for 93-94, 94-95, 95-96 seasons 

Post#192 » by colts18 » Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:37 pm

lorak wrote:
Btw, Marbury and Jones didn't have net ratings anywhere near that high. Your numbers messed up on them.


So what numbers they have according to your calculations?

Marbury and Jones were traded midseason in 99 so their numbers are messed up.
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Re: Raw plus/minus for 93-94, 94-95, 95-96 seasons 

Post#193 » by HurricaneKid » Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:56 pm

colts18 wrote:Since the season is almost over, I am going to update some of the plus/minus records we have since 1994.

Here is an updated list for the top 10 total on court plus/minus from 1994-2015 (22 seasons):

Here is how to read this: on court Net +/-, on court per 100 poss, Net Plus/Minus per 100 poss

1. 96 Jordan +980, +16.7, +15.2
2. 15 Curry +911, +16.6, +17.8
3. 96 Pippen +899, +16.8, +11.8
4. 09 James +871, +15, +21.2
5. 15 Green +861, +16.5, +15.5
6. 97 Jordan +818, +14, +9.7
7. 97 Pippen +807, +13.9, +9
8. 08 Pierce +784, +14.2, +9.8
9. 03 Nowitzki +778, +12.6, +20.4
10. 97 Hornacek +775, +15.9, +18

Klay Thompson is at 11 with +773. For much of the season, Curry was on pace to break +1000 but he slowed down as the season wore on. He ended up finishing behind 96 MJ.

Top 8 in On court Net rating per 100 (Min. 1500 MP):
1. 05 Duncan +16.9
2. 96 Pippen +16.8
3. 96 Jordan +16.7
T4. 15 Curry +16.6
T4. 05 Ginobili +16.6
T4. 15 Bogut +16.6 (barely qualified)
T7. 15 Green +16.5
T7. 97 Ostertag +16.5

Curry barely behind MJ again.


Other notes:
Chris Paul joined the +20 Net Plus/Minus club this season joining the likes of 97 Laettner, 99 Kidd, 09 LeBron, 03 Dirk, 03 KG, and 04 KG.

Top 7
1. 03 KG +23.4
2. 09 LeBron +21.2
3. 99 Kidd +21.1
4. 15 Paul +20.9
5. 04 KG +20.7
6. 03 Dirk +20.4
7. 97 Laettner +20.1

Chris Paul was a +19.9 Net on Offense which cruises by 06 Kobe's record of +18.9.

Here are the top on court plus/minus in the playoffs from 97-15, min. 30 MPG and 10 GP (using NBA.com):

1. 99 Robinson +19.5
2. 10 Lewis +16.3
3. 01 Kobe +15.2
4. 01 Shaq +14.1
T5. 12 Duncan +13.8
T5. 15 Shumpert +13.8
7. 14 Leonard +13.4
8. 09 Odom +13.2
9. 15 Green +13.0
10. 09 Varejao +12.3

J.R. Smith is at +13.6 but is only 0.2 MPG from qualifying.


What is the value of a net +? Thats a team statistic you are attributing to an individual. It is far more accurate (though still highly flawed) to subtract the team's value when the player is off (or add it if negative). Then at least you are comparing what the team is when a player are off court to what the team does with him in.

By your standards, I could have been an all timer (even though I would have been the worst player ever) if I had just played on the 96 Bulls/01 Lakers, etc on a rotation with just the best players around.
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Re: Raw plus/minus for 93-94, 94-95, 95-96 seasons 

Post#194 » by Rosque » Wed Jun 24, 2015 4:07 pm

Does anyone have this stuff for 92/93?
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Re: Raw plus/minus for 93-94, 94-95, 95-96 seasons 

Post#195 » by trex_8063 » Thu Aug 20, 2015 9:42 pm

colts18 wrote:Can anyone confirm if Moses +18.8 Net O rating in 1985 is the best we have recorded? The best I've seen so far is Steve Nash in 2005 with a +17.3 Net O rating.


Well, it may have been at the time you made this post, but we've since seen Chris Paul with a +19.9 in '15.

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Re: Raw plus/minus for 93-94, 94-95, 95-96 seasons 

Post#196 » by bastillon » Sat Oct 17, 2015 12:49 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:I have a question for the believers in the strong RAPM hypothesis who are big Hakeem fans.

On the PC board there is a small but vocal contingent that have always alleged Hakeem was a GOAT level player who got screwed over by terrible management.

His basic and advanced box score regular season stats have never really supported that view. His PS basic box score stats do jump up in a big way but even the advanced ones place him a step below someone like Jordan.

Thanks to the work of people in this thread and http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com we have approximate RAPM stats for admittedly the tail end of his career. This is Hakeem's league rank in RAPM

Code: Select all

Hakeem   League Rank   
1994         4   
1995         6   
1996         11   
1997         28   npi
1998         42   
1999         52   
2000         69   
2001         93   npi
2002         324   npi
2003         56   


KG, Shaq, Robinson and Duncan are probably the most prominent big men along with Hakeem during the last 30 years. The 2nd half of his career pails in comparison to 2nd half of the career KG, Robinson and Shaq. It doesn't look as good as Duncan who is below those 3 in this metric.

With that in mind does this eliminate or lower your belief that Hakeem was a GOAT level player?

I am especially interested in the views of those who still consider Hakeem a GOAT level player who also place high confidence in the strong RAPM hypothesis. How do you square the two?


I think those numbers are somewhat accurate. We have to remember that these are RS numbers. For example I do belive that players like David Robinson were clearly better than Hakeem during the RS. That is undeniable.

In 94-95 Hakeem was a top-3 player in the RS. Obviously guys like Stockton and Kevin Willis weren't better than Hakeem. But Robinson was and Karl Malone may have been. Either way, the only guy who was significantly better than RS Hakeem was Robinson. Other than that Hakeem was on-par with everyone in the league. I think Hakeem was the best player in the league in RS in 93, which was his best RS.

In 96 Hakeem was meh due to injuries. He really regressed at the end of that season. It was widely known that he was not the same Hakeem from 94-95. Top 11 sounds reasonable for 96 Hakeem. It would probably be worse for the postseason considering his injury.

In 97 Hakeem and all of the Rockets coasted through the RS, and had insane issues with consistency due to continuously changing lineups. That plus somewhat poor result from the previous year and his rating from 97 is understandable. Obv 97 Hakeem was a different monster in the playoffs, his numbers jumped drastically, especially when it mattered (WCF vs Jazz). In reality he was still a top-5 player in the league in the playoffs but was not very impressive during the RS. That being said, this is 34-year old Hakeem we're talking about.

After 97, Hakeem had severe issues with injuries and was basically no longer relevant.

That being said, the reason why Hakeem is GOAT level player is because of the PS. Malone 94-95, Robinson 95, Shaq 95, Ewing 94 all of those players were pretty much at their best (or had one of the best years in their careers) and all of them got severely outplayed by Hakeem. If you look at Malone 94 as an example. There is a good chance that Malone had more impact than Olajuwon during RS (I'd say Hakeem was better but whatever), but if you watch 94 WCF Malone got badly outplayed. Malone still played very well but Hakeem was on another level.

Hakeem is the guy who improved in the PS more than any other player in history, and that improvement was made simultaneously on both ends of the floor. Hakeem was a dominant RS defender, but he didn't embarass all-time greats like he did in the PS.

Just look at this post from Colts:
colts18 wrote:
tsherkin wrote:"Comaprison," I like it.

Robinson was such a different animal in the RS, I'd love to see his splits versus different tiers of defense compared to someone like Olajuwon. He was just totally different in the playoffs. Still good, but asked to score like a wing without the abilty to back it up. Malone-ish, really, an error more the result of team management than his own issues, given how few dominant playoff volume scorers that size have existed.

Image


It shows that Hakeem was better despite better competition. So the amount of actual improvement was massive. This was a gametime player and this is why despite being on Robinson's or Malone's level in the RS, Hakeem is easily better than either of those guys in the PS, and thus overall.
Quotatious wrote: Bastillon is Hakeem. Combines style and substance.
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Re: Raw plus/minus for 93-94, 94-95, 95-96 seasons 

Post#197 » by Braggins » Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:35 pm

This is slightly OT, but I've been wondering something and I didn't think it deserved its own thread. This seemed liked the best place to ask. How relevant is it that Reggie Miller has the second highest career offensive rating of all time?
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Re: Raw plus/minus for 93-94, 94-95, 95-96 seasons 

Post#198 » by colts18 » Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:37 pm

Braggins wrote:This is slightly OT, but I've been wondering something and I didn't think it deserved its own thread. This seemed liked the best place to ask. How relevant is it that Reggie Miller has the second highest career offensive rating of all time?

O rating is an efficiency stat like FG% that incorporates turnovers and assists but does not incorporate usage. Its almost as relevant as saying that Tyson Chandler has the 2nd highest FG%. It doesn't mean he is the greatest offensive player, just one of the most efficient.
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Re: Raw plus/minus for 93-94, 94-95, 95-96 seasons 

Post#199 » by SideshowBob » Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:36 am

^^An addendum:

"Most efficient given how the particular formula counts/denotes possessions."
But in his home dwelling...the hi-top faded warrior is revered. *Smack!* The sound of his palm blocking the basketball... the sound of thousands rising, roaring... the sound of "get that sugar honey iced tea outta here!"
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Re: Raw plus/minus for 93-94, 94-95, 95-96 seasons 

Post#200 » by fpliii » Sun Dec 6, 2015 5:13 am

Oh BTW, got ahold of the rest of the Sixers guides. Nothing too exciting. 70-73 have misc stats (steals and oreb before they were official), also have 74, 75, 76 Sixers plus minus. There were older turnovers and opponent team stats which I uploaded to the PC Board OT thread awhile back (here are links to the relevant posts 1 2 3. If those links are dead I can put them back up.

Here's the link to the stuff I haven't already uploaded:

http://www88.zippyshare.com/v/dNl7kx8K/file.html
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