Players better than their (advanced) stats/boxscore

[Statlanta]

This is not a homer thread so you can't mention guys who are currently playing for your team(you can however if they played for your team)

Who are guys both today and in the past that are better than their stats?

Examples
Current: Kawhi somewhat better defensively than his current Ratings would indicate.

Historical: Kobe, a guy who had a wide variety of moves, large offensive gravity and lead good offenses but typically was near average in terms of shooting efficiency.

[Pennebaker]

Kobe was accurately measured by advanced statistics, in my opinion.

[xBulletproof]

Dale Davis.

That guys screens probably got Reggie Miller 10 PPG

[jackwindham]

Antonio Davis had something to do with that as well.

[Mister Ze]

Dennis Rodman, Tony Allen, Ben Wallace, Rudy Gobert, and Deandre Jordan just to name a few.

Even when their not picking up blocks/steals they're constantly disrupting an opposing teams offense just with their presence.

Might sound weird but I would also say Lebron. He's more than what his stats suggest. The guy is a coach on the floor and makes everyone around him better. His presence makes it easier for teammates around him to get better shots cause opposing teams strategize their game plan around him.

[xBulletproof]

Antonio Davis had something to do with that as well.

Eh, AD played half the minutes DD did, and AD didn't start. He spent less floor time with Reggie by a fairly large amount. Also DD was the better defender which even though I didn't mention it was a big reason why I mentioned him.

[zimpy27]

Anyone who plays defense, guys who set screens, hockey assisters, leaders on the floor.

Bogut, Iggy, Manu, Delly, Rondo come to mind first for me.

[deezerweeze]

Kobe was accurately measured by advanced statistics, in my opinion.

I disagree. I think prime/peak Kobe was significantly better than what his box-score advanced stats show, and his +/- numbers seem to agree with that. He didn't lead the league in a single advanced stat over his prime, and yet had the best offensive +/- numbers in the ten year study (02-11) and his minute-adjusted +/- look better than anybody on the list outside of LeBron and Duncan. He was higher than Wade, Nash, CP3, Dirk, Duncan, etc.

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/10-year-rapm

Offensive +/-:
Kobe: +6.6
LBJ: +6.6
Wade: +6.2
Nash: 5.5
Paul: 5.2

Essentially/virtually tied for #3 overall and the guy ahead by .1 (Wade) isn't even remotely close in terms of minutes played (Kobe played 29783 min over this sample. Wade? 20540. A difference of nearly ten thousand!).

So he's #3 overall, and only KG and LeBron are ahead. He's ahead of Duncan, Dirk, CP3, Nash, etc.

He's #1 in ORAPM (tied with LBJ...except Bryant played more than 4200+ more minutes over this sample)

Again, here he's ahead of Dirk, Nash, Wade, CP3, Duncan, etc.

That 2002-2011 study does basically cover Bryant's prime and that's why it's the one to use BUT it doesn't even include his remarkable 2001 season.

Here's the RAPM from that season (playoffs and reg season included)
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/11181n4avq5wefk/AABLySVPmcZXb0uiGPEk53fpa/2001.txt?dl=0

He's #2 among all stars/superstars behind only Duncan. He's #2 in minute-adjusted RAPM overall/among all players(williams (lol) played 1800+ less min and wasn't in Bryant's universe anyway, and Stockton played nearly 1000 less min)...he's ahead of freaking peak Shaq

Duncan: 5.52
Bryant: 4.39
Shaq: 4.37


Now let's look at what is widely regarded as his peak (2008)

In 08 Bryant was very widely regarded as the best player in the game despite the measly 24 PER and "advanced stats" that pale in comparison to LBJ/CP3, and yet he put up better offensive +/- than anybody in game outside of Nash (who played a ton less minutes) and in fact had the best minute-adjusted numbers in the entire league along with KG.

Nash: +7.26
Kobe: +6.29
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/teutg7zvxudqnlw/AACIF1UxAphVjODbTtO57_mia/2008.txt?dl=0

Kobe (24 PER): +6.29
LBJ (30 PER): +5.07
CP3 (30 PER): +3.41
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/teutg7zvxudqnlw/AACIF1UxAphVjODbTtO57_mia/2008.txt?dl=0

Offensive and Defensive Adjusted Plus/Minus : 2007-08
Bryant was#2 in Off Adj +/- Rating
Bryant #1 in Adj +/- Rating
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qgxs2bv40jBt6GD7txEUcnItyvax_zUfbTbnx1YXsL4/pub
http://www.countthebasket.com/blog/2008/06/03/offensive-and-defensive-adjusted-plus-minus/

SWAgR Wins (minute-adjusted RAPM, first available in 2008): #1 in 2008
http://www.gotbuckets.com/

Over on the PC Board a poster completed a study that measured how well a team did when their star missed games.

It's called WOWY (with and without you)

In other words, if you looked at all of the activity of players moving in and out lineups over the years, whose team changed the most based on a given player’s presence?

Kobe (prime) had one of the highest scores recorded at +6.5.

He's higher than Russell, Wilt, Chamverlain, Duncan, Shaq, Bird, KG, Dr J, Karl Malone, Barkley, Durant, and many other great players.

http://www.backpicks.com/2016/09/28/iii-historical-impact-wowyr-60-years-of-plus-minus/

Basically all the impact numbers tell us that peak/prime Bryant was having astronomical impact that went well beyond the box-score.

And what's particularly impressive about Bryant is that he made astronomical impact on great teams and next to some other stars. It's easy for a superstar to take a horrible team and get them to mediocrity, or turning a decent team into a good one, but making HUGE impact on amazing teams/ strong contenders is much more impressive, and so the fact that this his impact is at this level while playing with Shaq from 02-04 (on teams that weren't built/around him and while playing with another superstar whose biggest strength was also scoring, so certainly not the ideal situation to make maximum impact) and then anchoring the contending teams of 2008-2011 (the 08 were one of the strongest non-champion in history and GOAT level with Pau, and the 09 Lakers were one of the best teams in history and statistically one of the strongest champions ever, and obviously the 2010 Lakers were the champs) is extremely impressive

Other players that I think were/are better than their box-score advanced stats:
KG
Rasheed
Nash
Jordan
Aldridge

[jazzfan1971]

Bo Outlaw.



Ok, maybe not.

[Amare_1_Knicks]

Ah, very good thread. I was actually playing around with creating a thread with a very similar premise, so kudos. Incidentally, my inclination to create the thread was centered around my belief that advanced stats don't favor everyone, and don't necessarily reflect how great a player is; a good example of this would be Kobe, but that was discussed in pretty good detail above.(there was a very, very good post about how Kobe had the 2008 Lakers playing at an incredibly good, ATG level in another thread in the PC board)

Jason Kidd is another guy whose impact isn't fully reflected in his numbers. Obviously some of it is, ie: his incredible rebounding, and all time great facilitating ability, but his defense and leadership are qualities that can't really be quantified into a stat like PER/efficiency rating and etc. DBPM/DRPM are about as accurate a defensive stat as there is, along with the eye test but it isn't included in those other advanced stats. Also, he was just so tremendous at making the 'smart' play. He was essentially a player hovering around 17-19.5PER for his career but he was clearly better than that.

Currently, I believe Marc Gasol has superstar level impact, but that isn't really reflected in his numbers, raw or advanced. He's averaging about 20/6/4/1.5 on 55%TS for the year thus far, but he's very clearly the reason the Grizzlies have been so successful this season. Truthfully, I think he's the best center in basketball(Even over Cousins). He does everything well, on both ends(rebounding leaves a little to be desired but the Grizzlies are a good rebounding team).

[Jonatton Yeah]

Bogut.

He might not have been better than his stats displayed when on the Dubs ('though I'm sure he was). he was certainly more entertaining. Him bringing the ball up the court like a PG was always hilarious. His screens. His rim protection. His grimacing. His general attitude. Christ, he was so much fun to watch. Shame he struggled to stay on the court; he was just a never-ending source of amusement.

[Cappy_Smurf]

This is not a homer thread so you can't mention guys who are currently playing for your team(you can however if they played for your team).

I'm going to ignore this, as this thread could be renamed the Rudy Gobert and other guys thread.

One of the favorite things some fans on this board like to do is compare their center to Gobert based on block stats. If you go purely off stats, then it looks like there are several players who are just as good as Gobert defensively, or very close. This is very misleading as to the impact Gobert has on the game, as there are many times when teams quit taking the ball into the paint against Rudy half-way through the 1st quarter.

[jackwindham]

Eh, AD played half the minutes DD did, and AD didn't start. He spent less floor time with Reggie by a fairly large amount. Also DD was the better defender which even though I didn't mention it was a big reason why I mentioned him.

It wasn't half the minutes. The numbers were closer than you remember. Antonio was utilized as the primary backup for both Dale and Smits. It was basically just a three man rotation at power forward and center with another player getting cleanup minutes.

[freewhitemoon]

Klay Thompson's advanced stats have always been dog crap

[Pennebaker]

Kobe was accurately measured by advanced statistics, in my opinion.

I disagree. I think prime/peak Kobe was significantly better than what his box-score advanced stats show, and his +/- numbers seem to agree with that. He didn't lead the league in a single advanced stat over his prime, and yet had the best offensive +/- numbers in the ten year study (02-11)...

And in the study you cite, in defense per 100, he's at -0.5; the only player in the top 25 on offense that is in the negative on defense. Overall he ends up tied with Manu Ginobili over that span (which is about right on a per 100 basis). So your first example doesn't appear to counter what I said about advanced stats being accurate when it comes to Kobe. And that makes sense because Kobe was always a guy that countered all of the great things he did with significant episodes of bad, and we see the advanced stats bearing that out, in my opinion.

[RCM88x]

Enes Kanter?

[UcanUwill]

Marc Gasol

Sent from my SM-A510F using RealGM mobile app

[deezerweeze]

Kobe was accurately measured by advanced statistics, in my opinion.

I disagree. I think prime/peak Kobe was significantly better than what his box-score advanced stats show, and his +/- numbers seem to agree with that. He didn't lead the league in a single advanced stat over his prime, and yet had the best offensive +/- numbers in the ten year study (02-11)...

And in the study you cite, in defense per 100, he's at -0.5; the only player in the top 25 on offense that is in the negative on defense. Overall he ends up tied with Manu Ginobili over that span (which is about right on a per 100 basis). So your first example doesn't appear to counter what I said about advanced stats being accurate when it comes to Kobe. And that makes sense because Kobe was always a guy that countered all of the great things he did with significant episodes of bad, and we see the advanced stats bearing that out, in my opinion.

Yeah, and in the study I cited, he played more than 12,000 minutes more than Manu...that's not even to mention the humongous difference in role. You ignore that.

You ignore that he had the best offensive +/- numbers, and is ahead of guys like Nash, Dirk, CP3, Wade etc.

You ignore that he's third in minute-adjusted +/- behind only LBJ and KG, essentially tied with Wade (who played nearly 10,000 less minutes over this span) and is ahead of guys like Duncan, Dirk, Nash, Paul, etc

You ignore the WOWY numbers I posted, which has him with one of the highest marks recorded, and ahead of guys like Wilt, Duncan, Bird, Drexler, both Malones, Barkley etc.

You ignore the amazing +/- numbers he put up in 2001...better than peak Shaq...one the best playoff team in history and one of the absolute best teams ever.

You ignore the amazing numbers he put up in 08, and the huge disparity between his advanced stats and his actual impact in that year, and over his prime.

In fact, you seem to have essentially ignored almost my entire post, and cut off a very small snippet of it...while cutting all the numerous other numbers and studies I pointed to prove my assertion that Bryant was having glaringly superior impact compared to his box-score advanced stats. You have done nothing to make me think otherwise, and the idea that Bryant could make this type of impact, post these type of numbers, and have the type of extraordinarily success he had with "significant episodes of bad" is just hilariously silly and foolish.

[xBulletproof]

Eh, AD played half the minutes DD did, and AD didn't start. He spent less floor time with Reggie by a fairly large amount. Also DD was the better defender which even though I didn't mention it was a big reason why I mentioned him.

It wasn't half the minutes. The numbers were closer than you remember. Antonio was utilized as the primary backup for both Dale and Smits. It was basically just a three man rotation at power forward and center with another player getting cleanup minutes.

That wasn't off memory. Those were stats. Dale played 20K minutes in a Pacers uniform, Antonio played 10K. AD actually played more as a Raptor than he did a Pacer.

[jackwindham]

That doesn't take away the impact that he had for the Pacers while he was there.