Daryl Morey on MJ vs. Lebron

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Daryl Morey on MJ vs. Lebron 

Post#1 » by pmart123 » Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:12 am

Daryl Morey in an interview commented something like "the advanced stats favor Lebron by a wide margin." Does anyone know what advanced stats that were available across eras he is referring to? In terms of win shares in say top five or seven seasons or playoff win shares per 48, Jordan's stats look better. Top five or seven season VORP's look pretty similar. "Wide margin" seems pretty strong in either direction, so wanted to see if anyone had insights on his reasoning or whether his reasoning has merit?

Here's a link to the video: https://art19.com/shows/the-haberstroh-show
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Re: Daryl Morey on MJ vs. Lebron 

Post#2 » by K_chile22 » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:26 am

He's probably talking about proprietary stuff we have no access to and definitely not WS or VORP which are just box score derived
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Re: Daryl Morey on MJ vs. Lebron 

Post#3 » by pmart123 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:36 am

K_chile22 wrote:He's probably talking about proprietary stuff we have no access to and definitely not WS or VORP which are just box score derived


I guess that's my point. There is play-by-play stats from 96-97 and 97-98, but I doubt there is even game footage from every game in the mid-eighties to generate play-by-play data, let alone close to the data they can generate when they measure player movement.
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Re: Daryl Morey on MJ vs. Lebron 

Post#4 » by zimpy27 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:17 pm

pmart123 wrote:
K_chile22 wrote:He's probably talking about proprietary stuff we have no access to and definitely not WS or VORP which are just box score derived


I guess that's my point. There is play-by-play stats from 96-97 and 97-98, but I doubt there is even game footage from every game in the mid-eighties to generate play-by-play data, let alone close to the data they can generate when they measure player movement.

There would be game footage from enough games.
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Re: Daryl Morey on MJ vs. Lebron 

Post#5 » by K_chile22 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:06 pm

zimpy27 wrote:
pmart123 wrote:
K_chile22 wrote:He's probably talking about proprietary stuff we have no access to and definitely not WS or VORP which are just box score derived


I guess that's my point. There is play-by-play stats from 96-97 and 97-98, but I doubt there is even game footage from every game in the mid-eighties to generate play-by-play data, let alone close to the data they can generate when they measure player movement.

There would be game footage from enough games.

I find it hard to believe the NBA wasn't keeping official recordings of games. don't need a broadcast for that just a camera
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Re: Daryl Morey on MJ vs. Lebron 

Post#6 » by Richfield » Thu May 23, 2019 12:53 am

Imagine boxer A, who punches 5 times, then ducks 3 times, then punches 2 more times.

Imagine boxer B, who punches 3 times, ducks 1 time, then punches 3 more times.

Boxer A lost.

Boxer B won.

Boxer A shows more dominant stats.

Boxer B anticipated the opponent's particular movements better, knew more precisely when to duck and when to punch. They landed at better times.

Boxer B is the better boxer. He won.

If that doesn't do it for you. Think of pushing a kid on a swing. The goal is to go high. It's not about stats like how fast you push, or necessarily how hard you push. If you push at the wrong rhythm, the kid won't go very high no matter what. If you push even lightly, at just the right times, the kid flies.

Jordan knew what to do and when to do it. Stats aren't going to tell that entire story.

Not sure if Morey's stats factored in Championships, and the fact that they're the ultimate stat. And don't bring up Robert Horry, we know what this discussion is about. Superstar versus superstar.

Morey's stats didn't measure intelligence, the importance of genius, accurately if at all.
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Re: Daryl Morey on MJ vs. Lebron 

Post#7 » by bearadonisdna » Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:45 pm

A guy who's care was after hand checking was eliminated would and should grade out better analytically

Taking physicality out of the equation was to promote production. This is why lesser skilled guys like LeBron, or less physically gifted guy like curry, post all time seasons.
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Re: Daryl Morey on MJ vs. Lebron 

Post#8 » by Egg Nog » Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:17 am

Richfield wrote:Imagine boxer A, who punches 5 times, then ducks 3 times, then punches 2 more times.

Imagine boxer B, who punches 3 times, ducks 1 time, then punches 3 more times.

Boxer A lost.

Boxer B won.

Boxer A shows more dominant stats.

Boxer B anticipated the opponent's particular movements better, knew more precisely when to duck and when to punch. They landed at better times.

Boxer B is the better boxer. He won.

If that doesn't do it for you. Think of pushing a kid on a swing. The goal is to go high. It's not about stats like how fast you push, or necessarily how hard you push. If you push at the wrong rhythm, the kid won't go very high no matter what. If you push even lightly, at just the right times, the kid flies.

Jordan knew what to do and when to do it. Stats aren't going to tell that entire story.

Not sure if Morey's stats factored in Championships, and the fact that they're the ultimate stat. And don't bring up Robert Horry, we know what this discussion is about. Superstar versus superstar.

Morey's stats didn't measure intelligence, the importance of genius, accurately if at all.


I don't see that this is an apt comparison at all. Boxers are an easier comparison because they fight one on one.

To really make a comparison in basketball we need to filter out the influence on winning/losing from teammates and the opposition to isolate one player's talent. A difficult task, certainly.

Jordan's finals teams were always heavily favored apart from '98 when they were slightly favored. -200, -250, -240, -950, -600, -115

LeBron's finals teams were only favored twice: +360, -175, +155, -220, +135, +190, +180, +250, +688
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Re: Daryl Morey on MJ vs. Lebron 

Post#9 » by King Ken » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:09 am

LeBron is GOAT and it's not even close. I feel like Jordan is the Hulk Hogan of NBA Basketball. A.J. Styles is 1000x better in the ring. But but, look at his mic skills. Rock ran circles around Hogan on the mic and in the ring. But but, Hogan changed the sport and just meant more for wrestling... like it's always nonsense with fans about him. When you watch the film, I don't know how you say Jordan. The NBA is just night and day better today. That's due to the evolution of the sport, sports medicine, players putting their careers first, the money in the sport is bigger than ever. The best player pool in NBA history. The sport is suppose to evolve. Look at the NFL, the average OL was 6'4 250 in the 90s. Today they are 6'5 290 on average. Things get better. Coaching gets better. Teams spend on sports Medicine, players do too, analytics, etc. The game evolves.

I am pretty sure 20-30 years from now, someone new will be GOAT to the next great comes along.
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Re: Daryl Morey on MJ vs. Lebron 

Post#10 » by GhostOfChicago » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:59 am

King Ken wrote:LeBron is GOAT and it's not even close. I feel like Jordan is the Hulk Hogan of NBA Basketball. A.J. Styles is 1000x better in the ring. But but, look at his mic skills. Rock ran circles around Hogan on the mic and in the ring. But but, Hogan changed the sport and just meant more for wrestling... like it's always nonsense with fans about him. When you watch the film, I don't know how you say Jordan. The NBA is just night and day better today. That's due to the evolution of the sport, sports medicine, players putting their careers first, the money in the sport is bigger than ever. The best player pool in NBA history. The sport is suppose to evolve. Look at the NFL, the average OL was 6'4 250 in the 90s. Today they are 6'5 290 on average. Things get better. Coaching gets better. Teams spend on sports Medicine, players do too, analytics, etc. The game evolves.

I am pretty sure 20-30 years from now, someone new will be GOAT to the next great comes along.


Let facts do the talking.


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There is nothing that proves LeBron > MJ
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Re: Daryl Morey on MJ vs. Lebron 

Post#11 » by King Ken » Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:19 pm

GhostOfChicago wrote:
King Ken wrote:LeBron is GOAT and it's not even close. I feel like Jordan is the Hulk Hogan of NBA Basketball. A.J. Styles is 1000x better in the ring. But but, look at his mic skills. Rock ran circles around Hogan on the mic and in the ring. But but, Hogan changed the sport and just meant more for wrestling... like it's always nonsense with fans about him. When you watch the film, I don't know how you say Jordan. The NBA is just night and day better today. That's due to the evolution of the sport, sports medicine, players putting their careers first, the money in the sport is bigger than ever. The best player pool in NBA history. The sport is suppose to evolve. Look at the NFL, the average OL was 6'4 250 in the 90s. Today they are 6'5 290 on average. Things get better. Coaching gets better. Teams spend on sports Medicine, players do too, analytics, etc. The game evolves.

I am pretty sure 20-30 years from now, someone new will be GOAT to the next great comes along.


Let facts do the talking.


Read on Twitter


There is nothing that proves LeBron > MJ

There is a reason why the smart brains of the NBA like Morey know LeBron is and the Basketball internet Stevie Wonders "feel" MJ is.

Because if we broke down tape over their entire careers, you would realize how ridiculous your arguement or his is as the standards of the NBA has risen tremendously just in the last 10 NBA seasons much less throughout the eras.

This is where guys like me just shake our heads when we here nonsense like MJ is GOAT. The bigger joke is that there is one GOAT as well. Every generation has multiple GOATs. Even Hakeem had a case in MJ era. In Brons era, Steph and Durant has a case.

This is a fluid game. There will always be legends who are better than the last generation of legends. Soccer is not going to end with Messi and Ronaldo. Basketball is not going to end with Bron, Steph or KD.

With the trainers, coaching, sports medicine, etc. We will stay getting bigger and better sports legends. Just the way it's meant to be.
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Re: Daryl Morey on MJ vs. Lebron 

Post#12 » by GhostOfChicago » Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:04 pm

King Ken wrote:
GhostOfChicago wrote:
King Ken wrote:LeBron is GOAT and it's not even close. I feel like Jordan is the Hulk Hogan of NBA Basketball. A.J. Styles is 1000x better in the ring. But but, look at his mic skills. Rock ran circles around Hogan on the mic and in the ring. But but, Hogan changed the sport and just meant more for wrestling... like it's always nonsense with fans about him. When you watch the film, I don't know how you say Jordan. The NBA is just night and day better today. That's due to the evolution of the sport, sports medicine, players putting their careers first, the money in the sport is bigger than ever. The best player pool in NBA history. The sport is suppose to evolve. Look at the NFL, the average OL was 6'4 250 in the 90s. Today they are 6'5 290 on average. Things get better. Coaching gets better. Teams spend on sports Medicine, players do too, analytics, etc. The game evolves.

I am pretty sure 20-30 years from now, someone new will be GOAT to the next great comes along.


Let facts do the talking.


Read on Twitter


There is nothing that proves LeBron > MJ

There is a reason why the smart brains of the NBA like Morey know LeBron is and the Basketball internet Stevie Wonders "feel" MJ is.

Because if we broke down tape over their entire careers, you would realize how ridiculous your arguement or his is as the standards of the NBA has risen tremendously just in the last 10 NBA seasons much less throughout the eras.

This is where guys like me just shake our heads when we here nonsense like MJ is GOAT. The bigger joke is that there is one GOAT as well. Every generation has multiple GOATs. Even Hakeem had a case in MJ era. In Brons era, Steph and Durant has a case.

This is a fluid game. There will always be legends who are better than the last generation of legends. Soccer is not going to end with Messi and Ronaldo. Basketball is not going to end with Bron, Steph or KD.

With the trainers, coaching, sports medicine, etc. We will stay getting bigger and better sports legends. Just the way it's meant to be.


What has the smart brains of Morey won? this is the same guy that signed Melo. He's not the genius everyone thinks he is. The majority still views MJ as the greatest ever.
Fan poll
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Player poll
https://lebronwire.usatoday.com/2019/04/08/anonymous-poll-of-nba-players-has-lebron-far-behind-jordan-in-goat-debate/

Shows you've never watched Jordan because the tape shows MJ > LeBron. Jordan had no true weaknesses. The most skilled player ever, and the best 2 way player of all time.

Hakeem had no case over MJ. He was one of the best players ever but nobody thought Hakeem >> MJ.

"With the trainers, coaching, sports medicine, etc. We will stay getting bigger and better sports legends. Just the way it's meant to be." Yet Jordan is still considered the GOAT by the majority even though players have better advantages today. Must say It is kinda ironic that we are seeing the talk of "load management" these days despite these advanced training/medicine.

LeBron is still behind Jordan by..
3 championships
3 finals MVP
1 MVP
9 Scoring titles
4 NBA All-Defensive First Team
1 DPOY

Edit:
also just because time goes on doesn't mean the sport will get better legends. That is a complete nonsense comment. Babe Ruth is still viewed as the greatest baseball player, Muhammad Ali is still the biggest legend in the history of boxing, Gretzky in hockey. I don't see Jordan being knocked off his pedestal for a long time, and if someone does overtake him as the greatest ever we'll all know by the time that player is 30 years of age.

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Re: Daryl Morey on MJ vs. Lebron 

Post#13 » by batmana » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:28 pm

Egg Nog wrote:...
I don't see that this is an apt comparison at all. Boxers are an easier comparison because they fight one on one.

To really make a comparison in basketball we need to filter out the influence on winning/losing from teammates and the opposition to isolate one player's talent. A difficult task, certainly.

Jordan's finals teams were always heavily favored apart from '98 when they were slightly favored. -200, -250, -240, -950, -600, -115

LeBron's finals teams were only favored twice: +360, -175, +155, -220, +135, +190, +180, +250, +688


Don't you think LeBron has something to do with the fact that even though he stacked the deck in his own favor by joining Wade (and attracting Bosh) and proclaimed "not 1, not 2,..., not 6..." titles were coming up, his teams weren't considered clear-cut favorites? Maybe it's because of the fact that every LeBron team plays LeBron ball. He dominates all of the stats, his teams play his style which, ultimately, caps the team's performance. No team LeBron was on is among the all-time greatest teams. Jordan was on arguably the best team ever, and less controversially, a top 3-5 team of all time.

So I think the parallel was really good, maybe boxing is a completely different sport but stats cannot be used out of context to "know" player X is better than player Y.
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Re: Daryl Morey on MJ vs. Lebron 

Post#14 » by King Ken » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:23 pm

batmana wrote:
Egg Nog wrote:...
I don't see that this is an apt comparison at all. Boxers are an easier comparison because they fight one on one.

To really make a comparison in basketball we need to filter out the influence on winning/losing from teammates and the opposition to isolate one player's talent. A difficult task, certainly.

Jordan's finals teams were always heavily favored apart from '98 when they were slightly favored. -200, -250, -240, -950, -600, -115

LeBron's finals teams were only favored twice: +360, -175, +155, -220, +135, +190, +180, +250, +688


Don't you think LeBron has something to do with the fact that even though he stacked the deck in his own favor by joining Wade (and attracting Bosh) and proclaimed "not 1, not 2,..., not 6..." titles were coming up, his teams weren't considered clear-cut favorites? Maybe it's because of the fact that every LeBron team plays LeBron ball. He dominates all of the stats, his teams play his style which, ultimately, caps the team's performance. No team LeBron was on is among the all-time greatest teams. Jordan was on arguably the best team ever, and less controversially, a top 3-5 team of all time.

So I think the parallel was really good, maybe boxing is a completely different sport but stats cannot be used out of context to "know" player X is better than player Y.

55-27, that's usually the beginning and end of all Bulls discussions. It was a great team without MJ. MJ just made them, his era's version of Durant's Warriors.

LeBron was the best player on both teams but let's not act like the Heat didn't have scrubs at PG/C most of those years with little to no depth. They pretty much topped out their salary on Bron/Wade/Bosh and had horrible players at the 1/5, no depth and really didn't get good till Bron moved to the 4 and Bosh to the 5. The issue was, injuries finally got to Wade and that was the end of their run.

Thunder had a squad. They had depth, they had a starting five and they had a superstar in Durant.

Spurs had the best RS team in NBA history by many metrics when they beat the Heat. Even the 73 win Warrior team didn't have their metrics.

Every team the Heat played in the Finals was the real deal. Even the Dallas team was tremendous till they caught the injury bug and even then, they started trending up when it mattered most. That defense was able to switch as good as anyone and Chandler protected the paint with that soft zone they were constantly in. Not to mention, Bibby and Anthony were killing the Heat.

Name one series where MJ didn't have the better team. I can only think of two in the 90's. 1990 Pistons and 1995 Magic. Those lost BOTH times.



You really think old ass Stockton, Hornecek and Malone with Bryon Russell, Howard Eisley, Austin Carr, and Greg Ostertag was beating Jordan, Pippen, Kukoc, Rodman and Harper? Really? :noway:

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