Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe?

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Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#1 » by Block Party » Thu Nov 5, 2009 11:53 pm

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/j ... index.html

Once again, we defined "clutch situations" as the last five minutes of a game with a scoring margin of five points or less. To measure how clutch a player is we used True Shooting Percentage (TS%), which accounts for trips to the free-throw line. And we looked at the last five seasons (not including the first week of the current season), 2004-05 through 2008-09, eliminating players who didn't attempt at least 180 field goals in clutch situations over that time.


James ranks 12th, Anthony ranks 22nd, Wade ranks 28th and Bryant ranks 38th.


Worth noting that based on these rankings, Ginobili is the "clutchest" player in the league, and Kyle Korver barely etches past LeBron for the 10th spot.

EDIT: This is exhibit A of why stats fail. There isn't one guy I'd trust to make a shot more than Kobe (except Jordan).
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#2 » by HTown_TMac » Thu Nov 5, 2009 11:56 pm

Bryant in the clutch is unguardable

This is coming from a Kobe hater and a Rockets fan..
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#3 » by Warhammer3025 » Thu Nov 5, 2009 11:57 pm

You'r.....

Eh screw it, i'm just gonna post pad.

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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#4 » by Block Party » Fri Nov 6, 2009 12:00 am

HTown_TMac wrote:Bryant in the clutch is unguardable

This is coming from a Kobe hater and a Rockets fan..


8-) Agree.

Warhammer3025 wrote:You'r.....

Eh screw it, i'm just gonna post pad.

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Thanks for the great response! How about watching games? That's where it becomes obvious stats don't play a role in the last 5 minutes. I can't remember one game winner that beats Kobe's fall-away 3-pointer against the Blazers to give them the 4th seed. It was the sickest play I've ever seen. Besides the crazy spinning jump shot he pulled off last year :oops:
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#5 » by WadeKnicks2010 » Fri Nov 6, 2009 12:03 am

Ginobili is a helluva clutch player though. I wouldn't say he's the best though.
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#6 » by USA » Fri Nov 6, 2009 12:09 am

This has been covered dozens of times on the player comparison board.

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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#7 » by Rendezvous » Fri Nov 6, 2009 12:16 am

In Before somebody locks something
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#8 » by mopper8 » Fri Nov 6, 2009 12:17 am

Those stats don't account for the difference between being a star player the coaches ask to score in isolation, vs being the guy who receives a kick-out pass for an open 3 when that star player is doubled.

Also, I'd rather see points-per-possession that the star player initiates, which accounts for assists, rather than just shooting %. Isn't it clutch to break down the d, draw extra defenders, and dump it off for a high % shot or layup? Isn't it the opposite of clutch to turn the ball over (which wouldn't show up in shooting %)?
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#9 » by timdunkit » Fri Nov 6, 2009 12:27 am

I don't think stats are a good way to measure clutchness ... There are key things that stat cant measure that are important. Kobe is the most clutch player in the NBA, its ridiculous some of the shots he hits. This guy always has a hands in his face but knocks them down. It be nice if they brought up a rating of the shot selection difficulty to go along with clutch stats. It would give a clearler picture but it would go further then the same regurgitated stats that we see every 3 weeks ..
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#10 » by That Nicka » Fri Nov 6, 2009 12:30 am

Kobe's been aight in the clutch the passed 2 games... As long as the Lakers win I dont care where Kobe ranks
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#11 » by Minge » Fri Nov 6, 2009 12:33 am

I posted this in, "2009-2010 NBA GM Survey"

Which player in the NBA would you want taking a shot with the game on the line?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 89.7% - 2009-10
(Others receiving votes: Pierce - 6.9%, Anthony)

Which player in the NBA would you want taking a shot with the game on the line?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 88.9% - 2008-09
(Others receiving votes: Arenas, James, Pierce)

Which player in the NBA would you want taking a shot with the game on the line?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 88.5% - 2007-08
(Others receiving votes: Anthony, Duncan, Nash)

Which player in the NBA would you want taking a shot with the game on the line?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 74.1% - 2006-07
2. Dwyane Wade, Miami 14.8%
(Others receiving votes: Anthony, Arenas, Billups)

Which player in the NBA would you want taking a shot with the game on the line?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 61.5% - 2005-06
2. Ray Allen, Seattle 15.4%
(Others receiving votes: Billups, Cassell, Duncan, Horry, Pierce)

Which player in the NBA would you want taking a shot with the game on the line?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 81.0% - 2004-05
(Others receiving votes: Duncan, Houston, Miller, Nowitzki)

Which player in the NBA would you want taking a shot with the game on the line?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 52.4% - 2003-04
2. Reggie Miller, Indiana 14.3%
(Others receiving votes: Duncan - 9.5%, Stojakovic, McGrady, Van Exel, Allen, Pierce)

Who is the player most likely to make a last-second shot if a game depended on it?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 42.3% - 2002-03
2. Reggie Miller, Indiana 38.5%
(Others receiving votes: Jordan - 15.4%, Iverson)
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#12 » by Derekman » Fri Nov 6, 2009 12:39 am

in bazarro world
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#13 » by InBoobieWeTrust » Fri Nov 6, 2009 12:46 am

Minge wrote:I posted this in, "2009-2010 NBA GM Survey"

Which player in the NBA would you want taking a shot with the game on the line?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 89.7% - 2009-10
(Others receiving votes: Pierce - 6.9%, Anthony)

Which player in the NBA would you want taking a shot with the game on the line?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 88.9% - 2008-09
(Others receiving votes: Arenas, James, Pierce)

Which player in the NBA would you want taking a shot with the game on the line?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 88.5% - 2007-08
(Others receiving votes: Anthony, Duncan, Nash)

Which player in the NBA would you want taking a shot with the game on the line?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 74.1% - 2006-07
2. Dwyane Wade, Miami 14.8%
(Others receiving votes: Anthony, Arenas, Billups)

Which player in the NBA would you want taking a shot with the game on the line?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 61.5% - 2005-06
2. Ray Allen, Seattle 15.4%
(Others receiving votes: Billups, Cassell, Duncan, Horry, Pierce)

Which player in the NBA would you want taking a shot with the game on the line?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 81.0% - 2004-05
(Others receiving votes: Duncan, Houston, Miller, Nowitzki)

Which player in the NBA would you want taking a shot with the game on the line?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 52.4% - 2003-04
2. Reggie Miller, Indiana 14.3%
(Others receiving votes: Duncan - 9.5%, Stojakovic, McGrady, Van Exel, Allen, Pierce)

Who is the player most likely to make a last-second shot if a game depended on it?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 42.3% - 2002-03
2. Reggie Miller, Indiana 38.5%
(Others receiving votes: Jordan - 15.4%, Iverson)


It's nice to live on reputation.

Fact of the matter is, since 2003...Kobe has shot a scorching 14/56 (25%) on these "game-winning" shots that everyone wants him to take all the time.

As far as "clutchness goes", here's how I go about it.

If my team is down in the fourth and needs a comeback to win the game, give me LeBron.
If my team is up in the fourth and needs to seal the deal give me The Black Mamba.

If I need one shot, honestly, Carmelo Anthony might be your best bet(although I still would take LeBron or Kobe over him every single time)
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#14 » by J-Mezzy » Fri Nov 6, 2009 12:50 am

I am much more of a Lebron hater than a Kobe hater. As a matter of fact, I don't hate Kobe at all; however, I find Kobe's "clutchnness" to be extremely overrated. The guy misses on game winning shots ALL THE TIME. It is simply that when he makes them, they look spectacular and they talk about it for 3 weeks. With the game on the line, I would guess he misses about 75% of the time
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#15 » by J-Mezzy » Fri Nov 6, 2009 12:51 am

InBoobieWeTrust wrote:
Minge wrote:I posted this in, "2009-2010 NBA GM Survey"

Which player in the NBA would you want taking a shot with the game on the line?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 89.7% - 2009-10
(Others receiving votes: Pierce - 6.9%, Anthony)

Which player in the NBA would you want taking a shot with the game on the line?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 88.9% - 2008-09
(Others receiving votes: Arenas, James, Pierce)

Which player in the NBA would you want taking a shot with the game on the line?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 88.5% - 2007-08
(Others receiving votes: Anthony, Duncan, Nash)

Which player in the NBA would you want taking a shot with the game on the line?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 74.1% - 2006-07
2. Dwyane Wade, Miami 14.8%
(Others receiving votes: Anthony, Arenas, Billups)

Which player in the NBA would you want taking a shot with the game on the line?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 61.5% - 2005-06
2. Ray Allen, Seattle 15.4%
(Others receiving votes: Billups, Cassell, Duncan, Horry, Pierce)

Which player in the NBA would you want taking a shot with the game on the line?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 81.0% - 2004-05
(Others receiving votes: Duncan, Houston, Miller, Nowitzki)

Which player in the NBA would you want taking a shot with the game on the line?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 52.4% - 2003-04
2. Reggie Miller, Indiana 14.3%
(Others receiving votes: Duncan - 9.5%, Stojakovic, McGrady, Van Exel, Allen, Pierce)

Who is the player most likely to make a last-second shot if a game depended on it?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 42.3% - 2002-03
2. Reggie Miller, Indiana 38.5%
(Others receiving votes: Jordan - 15.4%, Iverson)


It's nice to live on reputation.

Fact of the matter is, since 2003...Kobe has shot a scorching 14/56 (25%) on these "game-winning" shots that everyone wants him to take all the time.

As far as "clutchness goes", here's how I go about it.

If my team is down in the fourth and needs a comeback to win the game, give me LeBron.
If my team is up in the fourth and needs to seal the deal give me The Black Mamba.

If I need one shot, honestly, Carmelo Anthony might be your best bet(although I still would take LeBron or Kobe over him every single time)


ja, I was right. Kobe does miss 75% of the time.
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#16 » by semi-sentient » Fri Nov 6, 2009 1:00 am

You don't become a clutch player by making shots in the regular season. You earn the title of clutch player by performing in the playoffs, and in that respect, Kobe has been quite successful for a very long time. LeBron is definitely making a name for himself though, that's for sure. His clutch stats last postseason were phenomenal.

Clutch Stats - Playoff Edition
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#17 » by snitch55 » Fri Nov 6, 2009 1:06 am

Being clutch is not ONLY hitting the gamewinner. Being clucth is to be able to come through tough situations in the end of a game .
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#18 » by Paydro70 » Fri Nov 6, 2009 1:14 am

Clutch is made up. If players could do something to make their shots at a higher probability, they would do it every time. The only angle you have to rationalize it are "secret moves" to get a shot that are only pulled out at the end, or increased effort, but surely that is more than cancelled out by fatigue. One exception might be Horry, who doesn't really try until the ends of games.

Once you add in the inevitably tiny sample size on what counts as "clutch," it becomes a truly ridiculous endeavor to try and recognize it in action. The excitement over game-winners is particularly absurd, because it suggests that the guy who made the shot at 3 seconds left is no longer clutch because the other team made one at 0.1.

So in other words, stop talking about it, because you're just imposing order on randomness. Kinda like the idea of "streaky shooters" or "the hot hand."
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#19 » by kvash37 » Fri Nov 6, 2009 1:17 am

The reason Kobe's percentage is so bad on "game winners" is because he is double or triple teamed in those situations 100% of the time. Yet he will still try to force it, rarely getting a good shot in those situations. Just watch a close Laker game within the last 2 minutes, Kobe is still the best with the game on the line. I don't care what any statistic says. And when it comes to clutch free throws Kobe will never miss, but I have seen Lebron miss tons of those.
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#20 » by Paydro70 » Fri Nov 6, 2009 1:21 am

Why would you expect any different, since LeBron isn't as good a FT shooter as Kobe to begin with? Actually, James is remarkably "clutch" from the line, since he shoots 85% in the clutch and ~75% normally.
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