Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe?

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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#21 » by Blame Rasho » Fri Nov 6, 2009 1:24 am

There are lies, damn lies and then statistics... consider that...
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#22 » by SApuro_ » Fri Nov 6, 2009 2:15 am

I know if i were the best player in the league I would love to answer question everygame on Kobe bryants stats and not my own.
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#23 » by LakersSquad » Fri Nov 6, 2009 2:21 am

those stats don't show that Kobe is doubled & Trippled (anywhere) while those other guys are allowed to play one on one in the end.
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#24 » by Blame Rasho » Fri Nov 6, 2009 2:22 am

LakersSquad wrote:those stats don't show that Kobe is doubled & Trippled (anywhere) while those other guys are allowed to play one on one in the end.


Yeah... life with Shaq was awesome wasn't it back in the day? My greater point is what type of comment is that? Just say, when it matters Kobe has delivered... You don't need stats to validate that
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#25 » by Mamba Venom » Fri Nov 6, 2009 2:28 am

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Lakers are 22-3 in OT last 6 seasons:Kobe best OT closer!
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#26 » by InBoobieWeTrust » Fri Nov 6, 2009 2:30 am

LakersSquad wrote:those stats don't show that Kobe is doubled & Trippled (anywhere) while those other guys are allowed to play one on one in the end.



Kobe's drawing doubles, but Wade and LeBron aren't?

Come on dude, even you can't believe that statement is true.
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#27 » by Volcano » Fri Nov 6, 2009 3:31 am

I've always thought Kobe was overrated in the 4th/clutch. Kobe being double/tripled teamed just means that someone else is open. If he doesn't pass it up for an open shot/lay-up, then it's just poor b-ball IQ and still unclutch.

I think clutch is being able to score/perform at your regular rate at least (or better) in tight, game ending situations. The whole thing has to do more with being unclutch (getting nervous/scared and messing up in a close game). If you're percentages are lower in clutch situations, that makes you unclutch.

People may think Kobe's clutch just by the fact that he's been in so many of those situations (compared to Melo/Lebron/Wade) and people tend to forget the numerous times he's missed or made bad plays. I wouldn't buy into what the "votes" indicate as the people around the league aren't the brightest either. (Nash MVPx2, Gasol trade, VC to Nets trade, family to feed, practice?, Stephen Jackson + Paul Pierce > Kobe, turning a team around 360 degrees, drafting Darko, drafting Hoffa, Shaq playing with the best player ever and having the best coach ever, Marbury, Isiah Thomas, Kwame Brown/MJ, Steve Kerr ruining the Suns, Kobe for Divac, unlicensed gun possession, Josh Howard disrepecting the US on camera, players turning down contracts that already have them overpaid, drunk driving, one year a coach is the worst coach ever..the next year he's COY, one year a player is a tier 3 player because he's losing..yet the next year he's a superstar b/c he's winning, and the list goes on). Anyone seriously want to base their arguments using these people? When it comes down to it, their non-intellectual brains will just tell them to go with what everyone and the media is saying.

Anyways...would I want Kobe taking the last shot (not a drive/lay-up)? Sure, he can probably shoot the 3 better than Melo/Lebron/Wade and the mid-range better than Lebron/Wade. But I wouldn't be thrilled to have him as the guy making the plays down the stretch. Of course, it's not like there are that many people I'd take over him..but he's not as great as advertised. Some people used the OKC game as an example of Kobe's clutchness. I saw the game as well and I thought he sucked. Well, we'll see...going back to the play-by-play for the last 7 minutes + OT:

Bryant Foul : Offensive (4 PF)
Bryant Turnover : Foul (5 TO)
Bryant Floating Jump shot: Made (21 PTS)
Bryant Jump Shot: Missed
Bryant Floating Jump shot: Made (23 PTS)
Bryant Free Throw 1 of 2 (24 PTS)
Bryant Free Throw 2 of 2 (25 PTS)
Bryant Turnaround Fade Away shot: Missed
Bryant Fade Away Bank shot: Made (27 PTS)
Bryant 3pt Shot: Missed

OVERTIME
Bryant Fade Away Jumper Shot: Made (29 PTS)
Bryant Turnover : Out of Bounds Lost Ball Turnover (6 TO)
Bryant Foul : Offensive (5 PF)
Bryant Turnover : Foul (7 TO)
Bryant Jump Shot: Missed
Bryant Free Throw 1 of 2 (30 PTS)
Bryant Free Throw 2 of 2 (31 PTS)

Does that look good to anyone? Yeah..he made some tough shots, but to me..I would NOT call that clutch. I don't have game tape, so I can't do this accurately, but generally, out of 12 possessions (where he either did something good/bad with the ball..I don't count possessions where nothing developed while he had the ball), he made 5 good plays when he had the ball and 7 bad plays. Ok, not the worst..but not the best either..yet some of my friends who are Kobe fans claimed he was clutch this game...wth? So basically, no matter how he does..it's clutch because he made a few fade away shots. I've tallied good/bad possessions in the 4th in the past watching it live (specifically a couple games in the Orlando series)..and he's never done well (though it's a small sample size).

That Nicka wrote:Kobe's been aight in the clutch the passed 2 games... As long as the Lakers win I dont care where Kobe ranks


Oh..there's an example
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#30 » by Miller4ever » Fri Nov 6, 2009 6:21 am

Don't we have a player comparisons board already?

Statistically speaking, putting numbers to clutch is like putting a value on luck. Unless it's an RPG, it can't be done.
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#31 » by Jimmy76 » Fri Nov 6, 2009 11:07 am

Patterns wrote:http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM


Lebron is far and above the best clutch player according to these stats

Compared to Kobe:
Lebron has one less point at 10 percent higher shooting percentage (higher 3 point percentage too)
Lebron has six more rebounds
Lebron has seven more assists
Lebron has two more blocks
Lebron has 2.5 more steals

Kobe has 2 less turnovers but thats the only things he really wins

+10 FG%, 6 boards, 7 assists, 2 blocks, 2.5 steals>>>>>>>>>>>>>1ppg and 2 TO's

edit: let do wade too

Since we've established Bron at the top it's Kobe vs Wade for the second spot

Kobe has 8 points on Wade and +12% three point shooting>4FT so Kobe is more efficient too (its not like Wade is hardly shooting any either he has 8 three point attempts)
Bryant has 3 more boards
Wade has 4 more assists
Kobe has 1 less turnover
Wade has 2 more steals
Wade has 5 more blocks :o

I can see this going either way but ill take Wade since his greater amount of assists means he is still producing similar offense to Bryant and those block stats indicate he is making ridiculously clutch defensive plays too where as Kobe is only scaring me on one side of the court which trumps a few more rebounds to me

Lebron
Wade
Kobe

according to these stats
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#32 » by azuresou1 » Fri Nov 6, 2009 3:46 pm

Those stats suck though, since their very definition is flawed. Up or down 5 with 5 minutes left? Terrible definition. Doesn't count ends of quarters, shot clock, etc.

I'm sure Robert Horry's clutch stats suck balls, but I'd still put him as a Top 5 clutch player ever.
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#33 » by MHZ » Fri Nov 6, 2009 10:19 pm

kvash37 wrote:The reason Kobe's percentage is so bad on "game winners" is because he is double or triple teamed in those situations 100% of the time. Yet he will still try to force it, rarely getting a good shot in those situations. Just watch a close Laker game within the last 2 minutes, Kobe is still the best with the game on the line. I don't care what any statistic says. And when it comes to clutch free throws Kobe will never miss, but I have seen Lebron miss tons of those.


And that's a good quality?
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#34 » by wreck » Sun Nov 8, 2009 4:22 pm

Another example of the stats disproving the myth that Bryant is a clutch player, because he's not. That's why I always laugh at the media myth that he's the "best closer" in the game.

I wonder why fans can't see this? While these statistics are not the end all, it's no surprise that none of the stats point to Bryant being near the most efficient or most deadly player in clutch situations.
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#35 » by azuresou1 » Mon Nov 9, 2009 7:13 pm

wreck wrote:Another example of the stats disproving the myth that Bryant is a clutch player, because he's not. That's why I always laugh at the media myth that he's the "best closer" in the game.

I wonder why fans can't see this? While these statistics are not the end all, it's no surprise that none of the stats point to Bryant being near the most efficient or most deadly player in clutch situations.


Tell me, what are Robert Horry's clutch stats?
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Re: Wade and LeBron are more clutch than Kobe? 

Post#36 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:15 am

I think the reality is that the personality trait that makes someone clutch is something that caps out. What clutchness is, is about keeping your head in the most crucial situations. Nobody has that more than Kobe, but some others do have it as much as Kobe.

When looking at these types of stats, probably the largest thing they measure is not whether a player is keeping their head, but how are the players skills and strategies.

Of course, none of that clears up the controversy about whether Kobe's doing well or not.
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