Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon

[Despy]

I've already addressed the argument that Bub is better than Deni:

I don't think it's particularly informative to compare the rookie seasons of Carrington and Deni. They're different players, at different positions, on a team with different goals. Rookie Deni played with Beal and Westbrook for a team with playoff aspirations. Bub is playing on a tanking team willing to start three or four rookies at times.

Also, Deni was a late bloomer who was pretty bad on offense for his first 3 seasons until breaking out big time in his 4th year. Lots of players were better as rookies than Deni but weren't better as 4th year players than Deni.

I am by no means writing Bub off, but I'm not particularly convinced by the argument that rookie Bub being statistically better than rookie Deni is proof that veteran Bub will pan out better than veteran Deni.

I don't agree with the argument because rookie Deni was already very good at certain intrinsic NBA qualities (size, strength, speed, defensive reflexes, basketball IQ) that are difficult or impossible to improve. His weaknesses (shooting, left hand, offensive aggressiveness) were things that generally improve if you work at it. It was easy to imagine him having a very high ceiling if his shot improved. It's still not out of the realm of possibility that Deni peaks as a fringe all star player.

Bub is sort of the opposite. He is an average NBA athlete and he lacks innate explosion or shiftiness. And he's not really going to get much better at that. The things one generally improves upon (shooting, ball-handling) he is already good at, which suggests that there's less room for significant improvement. That doesn't mean he can't be a quality starter, but I think it's highly doubtful that he pans out as an All-Star or fringe All-Star. I'm not hating. There's nothing wrong with a quality starter, or even a quality rotation player - particularly in this lousy draft. I'm just saying I think his ceiling is lower than rookie Deni even though his rookie stats are better.

I like since bub stats blew Denis out of the water we have to argue about intangibles.

[AFM]

Deni was never that good for the Wizards, and only has had 1 good season for a bad Portland team. As good as it was, he still wasn’t good enough to carry a team. That means he still needs to improve to become elite. Until then, people are simply crying over not having their preferred role player on the Wizards.

Bub shot 55.3% for fg under 3 feet and from 10 to 16 feet. He shot 46.2% for 2pa over 16 feet. Unfortunately, he shot 35.3 for fg between 3 and 10 feet.

Bub was a slightly below average 3 point shooter, but he was a better 3 point shooter when excluding the corner 3s.

Put this all together, and Bub wasn’t that far from being an elite efficient offensive player. He just needs to work on his 3s, and work on getting the ball out his hands when he is between 3 and 10 feet. If he makes those improvements, he will make people forget about Deni.

That’s a good point. If you take away Deni’s good seasons and ignore all of Carrington’s missed shots and pretend he’s an “elite efficient offensive player”, the trade really doesn’t look so bad!

That’s a fallacy of a straw man.

Let me guess, you are white and or Jewish? Otherwise you probably wouldn’t be so obsessed with such a marginal player.

[Despy]

There's less moaning over on the clippers board over sga than here over deni **** advija

[leswizards]

That’s a good point. If you take away Deni’s good seasons and ignore all of Carrington’s missed shots and pretend he’s an “elite efficient offensive player”, the trade really doesn’t look so bad!

That’s a fallacy of a straw man.

Let me guess, you are white and or Jewish? Otherwise you probably wouldn’t be so obsessed with such a marginal player.

A "marginal player" that just averaged 20/9/5 per 36 minutes on a .605 TS%, and who averaged 25/10/6 per 36 on a .650 TS% over his final 22 games. All while being a top 20% defender if not better.

Been in the nba for 4 years, and he had 1 good season, and 1 exceptional stretch on a bad team. Still wasn’t good enough to carry the team to the next level. So, is he already elite ready to carry a team to the next level, or are we just upset that “your” favorite role player is no longer with the team.

[nate33]

I've already addressed the argument that Bub is better than Deni:

I don't think it's particularly informative to compare the rookie seasons of Carrington and Deni. They're different players, at different positions, on a team with different goals. Rookie Deni played with Beal and Westbrook for a team with playoff aspirations. Bub is playing on a tanking team willing to start three or four rookies at times.

Also, Deni was a late bloomer who was pretty bad on offense for his first 3 seasons until breaking out big time in his 4th year. Lots of players were better as rookies than Deni but weren't better as 4th year players than Deni.

I am by no means writing Bub off, but I'm not particularly convinced by the argument that rookie Bub being statistically better than rookie Deni is proof that veteran Bub will pan out better than veteran Deni.

I don't agree with the argument because rookie Deni was already very good at certain intrinsic NBA qualities (size, strength, speed, defensive reflexes, basketball IQ) that are difficult or impossible to improve. His weaknesses (shooting, left hand, offensive aggressiveness) were things that generally improve if you work at it. It was easy to imagine him having a very high ceiling if his shot improved. It's still not out of the realm of possibility that Deni peaks as a fringe all star player.

Bub is sort of the opposite. He is an average NBA athlete and he lacks innate explosion or shiftiness. And he's not really going to get much better at that. The things one generally improves upon (shooting, ball-handling) he is already good at, which suggests that there's less room for significant improvement. That doesn't mean he can't be a quality starter, but I think it's highly doubtful that he pans out as an All-Star or fringe All-Star. I'm not hating. There's nothing wrong with a quality starter, or even a quality rotation player - particularly in this lousy draft. I'm just saying I think his ceiling is lower than rookie Deni even though his rookie stats are better.

I like since bub stats blew Denis out of the water we have to argue about intangibles.

There is obviously no point in arguing with you. You will only be convinced 4 years from now when 5th year Bub isn't as good as 5th year Deni. Why don't you come back then and we'll talk.

In the meantime, I will anxiously hold my breath, awaiting for Carrington to become a guy who can post 20/8/5 on a .600+ TS% while being an elite switchable defender capable of guarding 1 through 5.

[AFM]

Deni carried us to 15 wins, Carrington 18. As PIF would say.... QED!!!!!!!

[nate33]

That’s a fallacy of a straw man.

Let me guess, you are white and or Jewish? Otherwise you probably wouldn’t be so obsessed with such a marginal player.

A "marginal player" that just averaged 20/9/5 per 36 minutes on a .605 TS%, and who averaged 25/10/6 per 36 on a .650 TS% over his final 22 games. All while being a top 20% defender if not better.

Been in the nba for 4 years, and he had 1 good season, and 1 exceptional stretch on a bad team. Still wasn’t good enough to carry the team to the next level. So, is he already elite ready to carry a team to the next level, or are we just upset that “your” favorite role player is no longer with the team.

He has had 2 good seasons. He was extremely good in his final year with Washington too. And typically, when a guy puts together 2 real good seasons in a row at age 23 and 24, a prudent analyst doesn't dismiss it as some sort of fluke. At this age, production like this is perceived as a break out. You act like it won't continue and he will somehow revert back to averaging 11 points a game. Do you want to bet on that?

[leswizards]

A "marginal player" that just averaged 20/9/5 per 36 minutes on a .605 TS%, and who averaged 25/10/6 per 36 on a .650 TS% over his final 22 games. All while being a top 20% defender if not better.

Been in the nba for 4 years, and he had 1 good season, and 1 exceptional stretch on a bad team. Still wasn’t good enough to carry the team to the next level. So, is he already elite ready to carry a team to the next level, or are we just upset that “your” favorite role player is no longer with the team.

He has had 2 good seasons. He was extremely good in his final year with Washington too. And typically, when a guy puts together 2 real good seasons in a row at age 23 and 24, a prudent analyst doesn't dismiss it as some sort of fluke. At this age, production like this is perceived as a break out. You act like it won't continue and he will somehow revert back to averaging 11 points a game. Do you want to bet on that?

Is he an elite player who would have carried the Wizards to an nba championship, or is he merely a piece of the puzzle? To me he is nothing more than a piece of the puzzle. And since the puzzle is no where close to being put together, I don’t understand why people are so obsessed with this trade (actually not true white/Jewish).

[NatP4]

You just called him a “marginal player”

[leswizards]

You just called him a “marginal player”

Who cares? It is stupid semantics argument. You have defined it in way where you think it is important to argue, as to where I just meant he only has a marginal value in helping the Wizards win a championship.

[nate33]

Been in the nba for 4 years, and he had 1 good season, and 1 exceptional stretch on a bad team. Still wasn’t good enough to carry the team to the next level. So, is he already elite ready to carry a team to the next level, or are we just upset that “your” favorite role player is no longer with the team.

He has had 2 good seasons. He was extremely good in his final year with Washington too. And typically, when a guy puts together 2 real good seasons in a row at age 23 and 24, a prudent analyst doesn't dismiss it as some sort of fluke. At this age, production like this is perceived as a break out. You act like it won't continue and he will somehow revert back to averaging 11 points a game. Do you want to bet on that?

Is he an elite player who would have carried the Wizards to an nba championship, or is he merely a piece of the puzzle? To me he is nothing more than a piece of the puzzle. And since the puzzle is no where close to being put together, I don’t understand why people are so obsessed with this trade (actually not true white/Jewish).

I think he is better than every player on our roster. And I think he has a higher ceiling than every player on our roster with the possible exception of Bilal. Heck, I think he'll probably make an All-Star game at some point, or at least he would if he played in the East. Giving away a guy like that for a #14 pick and a future pick likely to be in the teens makes no sense at all.

[Kanyewest]

He has had 2 good seasons. He was extremely good in his final year with Washington too. And typically, when a guy puts together 2 real good seasons in a row at age 23 and 24, a prudent analyst doesn't dismiss it as some sort of fluke. At this age, production like this is perceived as a break out. You act like it won't continue and he will somehow revert back to averaging 11 points a game. Do you want to bet on that?

Is he an elite player who would have carried the Wizards to an nba championship, or is he merely a piece of the puzzle? To me he is nothing more than a piece of the puzzle. And since the puzzle is no where close to being put together, I don’t understand why people are so obsessed with this trade (actually not true white/Jewish).

I think he is better than every player on our roster. And I think he has a higher ceiling than every player on our roster with the possible exception of Bilal. Heck, I think he'll probably make an All-Star game at some point, or at least he would if he played in the East. Giving away a guy like that for a #14 pick and a future pick likely to be in the teens makes no sense at all.

Next season is about as good as ever for him to make an all star team if they are going with USA vs World format.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

Deni was never that good for the Wizards, and only has had 1 good season for a bad Portland team. As good as it was, he still wasn’t good enough to carry a team. That means he still needs to improve to become elite. Until then, people are simply crying over not having their preferred role player on the Wizards.

Bub shot 55.3% for fg under 3 feet and from 10 to 16 feet. He shot 46.2% for 2pa over 16 feet. Unfortunately, he shot 35.3 for fg between 3 and 10 feet.

Bub was a slightly below average 3 point shooter, but he was a better 3 point shooter when excluding the corner 3s.

Put this all together, and Bub wasn’t that far from being an elite efficient offensive player. He just needs to work on his 3s, and work on getting the ball out his hands when he is between 3 and 10 feet. If he makes those improvements, he will make people forget about Deni.

That’s a good point. If you take away Deni’s good seasons and ignore all of Carrington’s missed shots and pretend he’s an “elite efficient offensive player”, the trade really doesn’t look so bad!

That’s a fallacy of a straw man.

Let me guess, you are white and or Jewish? Otherwise you probably wouldn’t be so obsessed with such a marginal player.

Yes, yes of course, the big Zionist, cabal in cahoots on this board of long tenured posters and fans sleeping in wait to back the Jewish guy who wasn't even born when most became fans.

I've always had the sneaky suspicion a lot of the dislike of Avdija or to call him marginal had ulterior motives and reasonings. Thanks for confirming to the board this is true.

[leswizards]

That’s a good point. If you take away Deni’s good seasons and ignore all of Carrington’s missed shots and pretend he’s an “elite efficient offensive player”, the trade really doesn’t look so bad!

That’s a fallacy of a straw man.

Let me guess, you are white and or Jewish? Otherwise you probably wouldn’t be so obsessed with such a marginal player.

Yes, yes of course, the big Zionist, cabal in cahoots on this board of long tenured posters and fans sleeping in wait to back the Jewish guy who wasn't even born when most became fans.

I've always had the sneaky suspicion a lot of the dislike of Avdija or to call him marginal had ulterior motives and reasonings. Thanks for confirming to the board this is true.

Let me see, one side is obsessed with a player who isn’t on the team anymore, and wasn’t all that great when he was on the team, and has only had 1 truly good season on a bad team.

While the other side, liked Deni and hoped for the best for him when he was on the team, even though he wasn’t all that great (and many people were upset that he was drafted over Haliburton) but they still supported him and were happy for him. This side is even happy that he is doing well in Portland. This side just doesn’t think the team was fleeced when they traded Deni away. By your reckoning, this side is clearly antisemitic for not being bothered by the trade. Okay.

[dckingsfan]

My 1/2 cent.

There are two reasonable arguments. The first is that the trade for Deni was to position us better in the '25 draft and add new players that could be developed on a time frame that was reasonable for when we might be competitive. I understand and am good with that argument.

The second argument is that we shouldn't have traded Deni or we traded him too early because we saw him breaking out in the '23-'24 season. He would have either been a #2 or #3 option on a winning team or he would have fetched more in trade assets (and more importantly in a better draft year).

I don't think this says that the FO is bad. They have a strategy and are "mostly" sticking to the strategy. And no FO wins every trade. That doesn't make this trade a good one. The FO should be judged on their body of work over the next 5 years (or maybe 10). And most on this board are more obsessed with the FO doing well than anything else.

I would also say, the vast majority would never call Deni's breakout in '23-'24 season or last season, "marginal". He was a good basketball player - he just blossomed more than some (and my guess is that includes our FO) would have expected. Some saw it coming.

[payitforward]

Deni carried us to 15 wins, Carrington 18. As PIF would say.... QED!!!!!!!

no no no no... don't you get me involved in this pillow fight!

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

That’s a fallacy of a straw man.

Let me guess, you are white and or Jewish? Otherwise you probably wouldn’t be so obsessed with such a marginal player.

Yes, yes of course, the big Zionist, cabal in cahoots on this board of long tenured posters and fans sleeping in wait to back the Jewish guy who wasn't even born when most became fans.

I've always had the sneaky suspicion a lot of the dislike of Avdija or to call him marginal had ulterior motives and reasonings. Thanks for confirming to the board this is true.

Let me see, one side is obsessed with a player who isn’t on the team anymore, and wasn’t all that great when he was on the team, and has only had 1 truly good season on a bad team.

While the other side, liked Deni and hoped for the best for him when he was on the team, even though he wasn’t all that great (and many people were upset that he was drafted over Haliburton) but they still supported him and were happy for him. This side is even happy that he is doing well in Portland. This side just doesn’t think the team was fleeced when they traded Deni away. By your reckoning, this side is clearly antisemitic for not being bothered by the trade. Okay.

You're the jabroni that brought up that he was Jewish (and that anyone who was, is, is kinda pissed at this trade is either white or Jewish) and now you're hurt feelings?

Bruh GTFOOH.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

My 1/2 cent.

There are two reasonable arguments. The first is that the trade for Deni was to position us better in the '25 draft and add new players that could be developed on a time frame that was reasonable for when we might be competitive. I understand and am good with that argument.

The second argument is that we shouldn't have traded Deni or we traded him too early because we saw him breaking out in the '23-'24 season. He would have either been a #2 or #3 option on a winning team or he would have fetched more in trade assets (and more importantly in a better draft year).

I don't think this says that the FO is bad. They have a strategy and are "mostly" sticking to the strategy. And no FO wins every trade. That doesn't make this trade a good one. The FO should be judged on their body of work over the next 5 years (or maybe 10). And most on this board are more obsessed with the FO doing well than anything else.

I would also say, the vast majority would never call Deni's breakout in '23-'24 season or last season, "marginal". He was a good basketball player - he just blossomed more than some (and my guess is that includes our FO) would have expected. Some saw it coming.

Yeah but horrible trades weigh heavily on how you're going to be assessed. Just like EG rightfully was by this board, Dawkins should be too. He doesnt get a free pass for "vision", period.

[dckingsfan]

Deni carried us to 15 wins, Carrington 18. As PIF would say.... QED!!!!!!!

no no no no... don't you get me involved in this pillow fight!

[dckingsfan]

My 1/2 cent.

There are two reasonable arguments. The first is that the trade for Deni was to position us better in the '25 draft and add new players that could be developed on a time frame that was reasonable for when we might be competitive. I understand and am good with that argument.

The second argument is that we shouldn't have traded Deni or we traded him too early because we saw him breaking out in the '23-'24 season. He would have either been a #2 or #3 option on a winning team or he would have fetched more in trade assets (and more importantly in a better draft year).

I don't think this says that the FO is bad. They have a strategy and are "mostly" sticking to the strategy. And no FO wins every trade. That doesn't make this trade a good one. The FO should be judged on their body of work over the next 5 years (or maybe 10). And most on this board are more obsessed with the FO doing well than anything else.

I would also say, the vast majority would never call Deni's breakout in '23-'24 season or last season, "marginal". He was a good basketball player - he just blossomed more than some (and my guess is that includes our FO) would have expected. Some saw it coming.

Yeah but horrible trades weigh heavily on how you're going to be assessed. Just like EG rightfully was by this board, Dawkins should be too. He doesnt get a free pass for "vision", period.

That is true... but

You have to give it to Dawkins to go hard after the rebuild. And with a bit of luck and if he would have had the ping pong balls bounce the right way - we could have said - brilliant.

And you have to admit that thus far he has drafted really well. And don't over look the Beal trade - a think of beauty! A solid drafter with lots of pick coming.

Yes, I didn't like the Poole trade and Kuz and Kispert signings. I very much didn't like the Deni trade (I guess that is a huge surprise). But overall, I have to say this FO has been a lot better than the last two. At least we are trying...