Paul Pierce says he is the best player in the NBA

[DCZards]

I'd much rather have Manu on my team vs. Pierce. If Manu got Pierce's touches and minutes, he'd be regarded as a top 10 player. Manu has done it over time.

I like Manu...I like him a lot. But please don't suggest Manu "has done it over time" compared to Pierce, especially not when Pierce has had the better career.

[miller31time]

I'd much rather have Manu on my team vs. Pierce. If Manu got Pierce's touches and minutes, he'd be regarded as a top 10 player. Manu has done it over time.

I like Manu...I like him a lot. But please don't suggest Manu "has done it over time" compared to Pierce, especially not when Pierce has had the better career.

I'm not sure if it's considered 'relevant' but Manu is considered by many to be the most accomplished pro-basketball player due to his titles with the Spurs and his time with the Argentinian national team. An argument can be made that he's "done" more than Pierce could ever dream of. But once again, that can be countered because many of his accomplishments are of the non-NBA variety.

[DCZards]

Eh. Caron outplayed Pierce in head to head games this year, does that mean Caron is better than Kobe too?

I dunno. Paul Pierce benefits by playing next to KG a ton. Up 'til now he always put up numbers but went nowhere on a team where he was the primary option. In a weak East his teams always drafted in the Lottery. Truth is his success this year doesn't change my opinion of him as much as it does cement my opinion that Garnett is as good as I always figured he was.

I don't believe anyone said that Pierce was better than Kobe....only that he outplayed Kobe in the finals.

Always in the lottery? Pierce led the C's to the playoffs for 4 straight years from 2001-05. You can't blame Pierce for the weak talent the C's surrounded him with before last season's trade.

Hail to Art and Darrell!

[nate33]

I dunno. Paul Pierce benefits by playing next to KG a ton. Up 'til now he always put up numbers but went nowhere on a team where he was the primary option. In a weak East his teams always drafted in the Lottery. Truth is his success this year doesn't change my opinion of him as much as it does cement my opinion that Garnett is as good as I always figured he was.

Are you kidding me? Pierce took the Celtics to four consecutive playoff appearances with shyt for teammates. Here is a list of each of the past 6 seasons, his top 4 teammates by minutes played, and the result

2001/02 - Walker, K.Anderson, T.Battie, E.Williams - Lost EC Finals 4-2
2002/03 - Walker, Williams, W.McCarty, T.Delk - Lost in 2nd round 4-0
2003/04 - Blount, Jiri Welsh, W.McCarty, M.James - Lost in 1st round 4-0 (Jiri freaking Welsch?)
2004/05 - Blount, R.Davis, R.LaFrentz, G.Payton - Lost in 1st round 4-3
2005/06 - D.West, R.Davis, R.LaFrentz, R.Gomez - missed playoffs (37 wins)
2006-07 - doesn't matter. He missed 35 games early in the season and then they went into tank mode

Look at those teams! Not only is there not a single all-star among them (except Walker, and he didn't deserve it), but there is no continuity either. The guy hasn't had a single player rank among the top 5 in team minutes played for more than 2 consecutive years. It's a freakin' miracle that Pierce managed to drag those woeful teams to the playoffs. They even made it to the EC Finals once.

Hell, after looking this up, I may have to re-rank Pierce into the top 8-10. The guy is seriously underrated. All he does is fill up the box score with exceptional efficiency and carry a woeful bunch of NBA castoffs to the playoffs every year. When he finally got help, he dialed back his offensive game a bit and became one of the better perimeter defenders in the league.

[DCZards]

The guy is seriously underrated.

Yes he is. And one of the qualities I love most about Pierce is his competitiveness. It showed up in that 7th game against LerBron and Co. and again at crunch time in the finals.

A poster complained about Pierce talking with trash to Caron....well Caron was talking it right back. That's what gets a lot of the great competitors going. Just ask MJ.

[miller31time]

Anyone who can take his team to the playoffs with Antoine Freaking Walker as the 2nd best player gets my vote for "under-rated". Walker, aka, master of the shimmy, is in my opinion one of the most overrated players of all-time.

[doclinkin]

Are you kidding me? Pierce took the Celtics to four consecutive playoff appearances with shyt for teammates. Here is a list of each of the past 6 seasons, his top 4 teammates by minutes played, and the result

Eh, fair enough, you're right. Full disclosure, I have a bias against Boston that clouds my judgment where that city is involved. His stats in the 02-03 playoffs are pretty insane. Still can't stand Bahston.

[TheKingOfVa360]

Eh. Caron outplayed Pierce in head to head games this year, does that mean Caron is better than Kobe too?

I dunno. Paul Pierce benefits by playing next to KG a ton. Up 'til now he always put up numbers but went nowhere on a team where he was the primary option. In a weak East his teams always drafted in the Lottery. Truth is his success this year doesn't change my opinion of him as much as it does cement my opinion that Garnett is as good as I always figured he was.

I agree, Pierce is not a better player than Arenas. Never was and never will be. Put KG and Ray Allen next to Arenas and I'm sure they would win a ring also. Pierce has never put up the numbers Arenas has.

[DCZards]

The KingofVA360 wrote:

I agree, Pierce is not a better player than Arenas. Never was and never will be. Put KG and Ray Allen next to Arenas and I'm sure they would win a ring also. Pierce has never put up the numbers Arenas has.

I suggest you check the "numbers" before you make that argument. Arenas and Pierce have put up close to the exact same career numbers. The only real distinction are rebounds and assists. As you might expect, Pierce has the edge in rebounds and GA has the edge in assists.

[Kanyewest]

I dunno. Paul Pierce benefits by playing next to KG a ton. Up 'til now he always put up numbers but went nowhere on a team where he was the primary option. In a weak East his teams always drafted in the Lottery. Truth is his success this year doesn't change my opinion of him as much as it does cement my opinion that Garnett is as good as I always figured he was.

Are you kidding me? Pierce took the Celtics to four consecutive playoff appearances with shyt for teammates. Here is a list of each of the past 6 seasons, his top 4 teammates by minutes played, and the result

2001/02 - Walker, K.Anderson, T.Battie, E.Williams - Lost EC Finals 4-2
2002/03 - Walker, Williams, W.McCarty, T.Delk - Lost in 2nd round 4-0
2003/04 - Blount, Jiri Welsh, W.McCarty, M.James - Lost in 1st round 4-0 (Jiri freaking Welsch?)
2004/05 - Blount, R.Davis, R.LaFrentz, G.Payton - Lost in 1st round 4-3
2005/06 - D.West, R.Davis, R.LaFrentz, R.Gomez - missed playoffs (37 wins)
2006-07 - doesn't matter. He missed 35 games early in the season and then they went into tank mode

Look at those teams! Not only is there not a single all-star among them (except Walker, and he didn't deserve it), but there is no continuity either. The guy hasn't had a single player rank among the top 5 in team minutes played for more than 2 consecutive years. It's a freakin' miracle that Pierce managed to drag those woeful teams to the playoffs. They even made it to the EC Finals once.

Hell, after looking this up, I may have to re-rank Pierce into the top 8-10. The guy is seriously underrated. All he does is fill up the box score with exceptional efficiency and carry a woeful bunch of NBA castoffs to the playoffs every year. When he finally got help, he dialed back his offensive game a bit and became one of the better perimeter defenders in the league.

I have to agree with the premise of this post except for Walker not deserving to make an all star team. Antoine Walker was a solid 2nd option especially when the Celtics made it to the Eastern Conference Finals in 2002. Still, I think Pierce finds himself out of top 10 IMO.

[Dat2U]

Every professional basketball player thinks they're the best. It's some strange wiring in the brain of professional basketball players.

Kwame doesn't think he's the best.

[ZonkertheBrainless]

That's why I said "Professional" basketball players...

:eyeroll:

[TheKingOfVa360]

The KingofVA360 wrote:

I agree, Pierce is not a better player than Arenas. Never was and never will be. Put KG and Ray Allen next to Arenas and I'm sure they would win a ring also. Pierce has never put up the numbers Arenas has.

I suggest you check the "numbers" before you make that argument. Arenas and Pierce have put up close to the exact same career numbers. The only real distinction are rebounds and assists. As you might expect, Pierce has the edge in rebounds and GA has the edge in assists.

All you have to do is watch a game and see Pierce isn't on Arenas level. Arenas has averaged over 7 ppg per in his peak seasons compared to Pierce on a winning team. Arenas does everything better than Pierce besides play defense and rebound. I'm a fan of Pierce but he has never been an Arenas level player. Hell Butler is passing him up now.

[nate33]

The KingofVA360 wrote:

I agree, Pierce is not a better player than Arenas. Never was and never will be. Put KG and Ray Allen next to Arenas and I'm sure they would win a ring also. Pierce has never put up the numbers Arenas has.

I suggest you check the "numbers" before you make that argument. Arenas and Pierce have put up close to the exact same career numbers. The only real distinction are rebounds and assists. As you might expect, Pierce has the edge in rebounds and GA has the edge in assists.

All you have to do is watch a game and see Pierce isn't on Arenas level. Arenas has averaged over 7 ppg per in his peak seasons compared to Pierce on a winning team. Arenas does everything better than Pierce besides play defense and rebound. I'm a fan of Pierce but he has never been an Arenas level player. Hell Butler is passing him up now.

Arenas' 3-year peak versus Paul's 6-year peak (pace-adjusted per-40). I'm ignoring Pauls's 2003-04 campaign when he had a really off year (PER 19.4). I don't know if he was hurt or what, but I think it's only fair to ignore that year since I'm isolating the 3 best years of Arenas' career..

Code: Select all

arenas,gi  PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO eFG%  TS%  PER
2006-07   28.2  4.5  5.9  1.9  0.2  3.2 .484 .565 24.1
2005-06   27.9  3.3  5.8  1.9  0.3  3.5 .507 .581 23.9
2004-05   24.8  4.6  5.0  1.7  0.3  2.9 .498 .565 21.4
Total -   26.9  4.1  5.6  1.8  0.3  3.2 .497 .570 23.1

pierce,pa  PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO eFG%  TS%  PER
2006-07   27.1  6.4  4.5  1.1  0.3  3.5 .502 .571 21.7
2005-06   27.5  6.9  4.9  1.4  0.4  3.5 .509 .582 23.6
2004-05   23.6  7.2  4.6  1.8  0.5  3.1 .499 .583 21.7
2002-03   27.2  7.7  4.6  1.8  0.8  3.8 .454 .532 22.9
2001-02   26.2  6.9  3.2  1.9  1.0  2.9 .508 .570 22.4
2000-01   26.8  6.8  3.3  1.8  0.9  3.4 .503 .563 22.5
Total -   26.4  7.0  4.1  1.7  0.7  3.4 .495 .566 22.5

It's pretty damn close if you ask me. Add in any of Arenas' other seasons and it would bring down his scoring and PER averages to lower than Pierce's.

Stat-wise, they're almost indistinguishable. Pierce's advantage is that he is a better defender. I'm pretty comfortable in saying that Pierce's peak is better than Arenas' peak to date.

[Kanyewest]

From 2004-2007, I would rather have Arenas than Pierce.

[nate33]

I have to agree with the premise of this post except for Walker not deserving to make an all star team. Antoine Walker was a solid 2nd option especially when the Celtics made it to the Eastern Conference Finals in 2002. Still, I think Pierce finds himself out of top 10 IMO.

I don't feel like digging up all the data, but take my word for it that Antoine Walker is legendary suck.

I made a post about him on the player comparison's board a month or so ago. I recall one nice little gem of a stat I researched:
There have been 627 instances since 1979 where a player has averaged 20 or more points per game for a season. If you rank all 627 of those instances inversely by TS%, Antoine Walker ranks first, second, third and seventh. That is, he has had the three worst seasons by TS% for any major scorer in the modern era, and the seventh-worst as well. Nobody in history has shot so often and so poorly as Antoine Walker.

Oh yeah, and during that four-year stretch of stellar shooting, he also happened to finish 2nd in total turnovers, behind only Allen Iverson. The man has no equal in his ability to give the opposing team more possessions.

The only reason Walker made the all star game is because he had good glory stats. During his 2002/03 campaign for instance, he averaged 20.1 points, 7.2 boards, and 4.8 assists. 20, 7 and 5. Sounds good, right? But look a little deeper into the numbers and you see that those 20 points came with .388 FG% and a .615 FT%. Those 7.2 boards came as a power forward averaging 41.5 minutes a game. Extrapolate those rebounds over 36 minutes like most PF"s play, and he'd average a paltry 6.3 rebounds, which ranked him second-to-last among starting PFs that year. (Hell, Pierce averaged 6.7 boards per 36 that same season.) Walker's 4.8 assists is the only stat that's even moderately impressive. And even with that, you have to bear in mind that those assists came with 3.3 turnovers.

Oh yeah, he's also a terrible defender.

Walker getting an all-star nomination is the biggest travesty in the history of NBA all star selections.

[Kanyewest]

I have to agree with the premise of this post except for Walker not deserving to make an all star team. Antoine Walker was a solid 2nd option especially when the Celtics made it to the Eastern Conference Finals in 2002. Still, I think Pierce finds himself out of top 10 IMO.

I don't feel like digging up all the data, but take my word for it that Antoine Walker is legendary suck.

I made a post about him on the player comparison's board a month or so ago. I recall one nice little gem of a stat I researched:
There have been 627 instances since 1979 where a player has averaged 20 or more points per game for a season. If you rank all 627 of those instances inversely by TS%, Antoine Walker ranks first, second, third and seventh. That is, he has had the three worst seasons by TS% for any major scorer in the modern era, and the seventh-worst as well. Nobody in history has shot so often and so poorly as Antoine Walker.

Oh yeah, and during that four-year stretch of stellar shooting, he also happened to finish 2nd in total turnovers, behind only Allen Iverson. The man has no equal in his ability to give the opposing team more possessions.

The only reason Walker made the all star game is because he had good glory stats. During his 2002/03 campaign for instance, he averaged 20.1 points, 7.2 boards, and 4.8 assists. 20, 7 and 5. Sounds good, right? But look a little deeper into the numbers and you see that those 20 points came with .388 FG% and a .615 FT%. Those 7.2 boards came as a power forward averaging 41.5 minutes a game. Extrapolate those rebounds over 36 minutes like most PF"s play, and he'd average a paltry 6.3 rebounds, which ranked him second-to-last among starting PFs that year. (Hell, Pierce averaged 6.7 boards per 36 that same season.) Walker's 4.8 assists is the only stat that's even moderately impressive. And even with that, you have to bear in mind that those assists came with 3.3 turnovers.

Oh yeah, he's also a terrible defender.

Walker getting an all-star nomination is the biggest travesty in the history of NBA all star selections.

I'm wondering who deserved the all star appearance over Antoine Walker from the much weaker Eastern conference in those years. I certainly would have several players over Antoine Walker. But when the Celtics made it to the Eastern Conference Finals, Antoin Walker did pose problems for the 76ers and the Detroit Pistons.

Note, I said Antoine Walker was a solid; not an all star option. Walker was a better 2nd option than Iverson had with the 76ers in 2002-2003 (being that Aaron McKie was never the same player after the 2000-01 season). I don't even remember whose Jerry Stackhouse 2nd option on the offensive end was in Detroit. Of course, several teams in the West had better 2nd options (i.e. the Lakers with Kobe, the Sacramento Kings with Mike Bibby).

I also respect Walker since he stepped up his efficiency in the playoffs especially in 2001-02 against solid defensive teams like the 76ers, Celtics, and Nets. His efficiency in the postseason was also higher in the 2002-03 season, his last season with the Celtics.

I also have to disagree that Antoine Walker is a terrible defender. He's not an all nba 1st team defender but he certainly was a capable in playing team defense especially during his stints with the Celtics and the Miami Heat.