Zards vs Nix Game Thread 11/22/08 (And CHATROOM)

[Wizards2Lottery]

Susan O'Malley?

[yungal07]

I don't necessarily disagree with the guy, but he puts way too much emphasis on physical stature than on actual defensive effort.

Defense, IMO, has to do more with the willingness to defend and not physical makeup. Charles Barkley was 6'5 at the most, and he was very good defender. That's because he wanted to. So was John Stockton, one of the best defensive guards of all-time. He wasn't tall and he didn't have long arms. Those guys just wanted to be great defenders, and they had the great basketball IQ in addition to the effort that allowed them to be great defenders despite their physical shortcomings. Even Ron Artest, who can defend positions 1-4, is not tall and doesn't "block shots on the perimeter" as WizarDynasty puts it. He puts forth the effort and that's what makes him a good defender. Not long arms, height, or "lateral acceleration."

[WizarDynasty]

charles barkley, stockton..none where great defenders. you put these same guys into todays game with no hand checking and they will get roasted on defense. Steve Nash and john stockton are nearly identical..and you see what happens to steve nash each night. charles barkley would get destroyed every night going against dwight howard.
effort is important but it will only take you so far, eddie has milked these team off effort for the last 3 years.
Etan thomas, put in effort...but he doesn't have a 7'6 wingspan like mcgee...mcgee's 7'6 wingspan is a defensive Talent...having exception wingspan for your position is a talent and something ernie has neglect in each of his free agent signings...which is why he should be fired.
Ernie has yet to bring in a free agent with a superior physical wingspan and lateral acceleration relative to his position...deshaun fails on wingspan..and is average at best for his lateral acceleration. --not superior lateral acceleration relative to their position. Now if grunfeld had brough james posey...s/f with a 7ft wingspan...and got lateral acceleration..then wiz would actually get deep into the playoffs...ernie like you thinks effort is all you need to match nightly against playoff teams lol.

oh by the way..artest is only a good defender because he overpowers positions 1-3---that is his talent...he is more powerful than any sg or sf in the league and once he puts his forearm on you...you are completely off balance. He is not a good perimeter defender against the three..but he will knock you off your angle to basket and force you to turn it over because he over powers you. Artest is not superior guarding powerforwards...so again..adding ron artest to this team will not decrease an opponents three point percentage but he does knock you off balance when you drive because of his superior power to any guard of small forward in the game...so try to get some insight before you use examples to support your premise. Artest has average lateral acceleration for sf and he is poor at challenging shots...he gets his steals because he overpowers..and once you get knocked off balance you usually loose control of your dribble and hence artest gets lots of steals. He is definitely better..(more powerful than caron--but like caron he too has slow feet and is not explosive at beating the avg sf off the dribble)

[DC old guy]

People are saying some inaccurate things about Caron Butler and he is playing about the same as last year. He is 6'7", not 6'5". He had enough lateral motion and wingspan last year to be an all-star. His shooting is not quite as good as last year and his foul shot percentage has gone down, but has gotten better in the last couple of games. Stats are:

2007-8 2008-9
PPG 20.3 20.2
fg% .466 .446
ft% .901 .821
3pt% .357 .360

Assists are down a bit, steals down, blocks the same, turnovers up one/tenth of a point, but some of this may be due to not having Brendan behind him.

Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... eca01.html

[WizarDynasty]

People are saying some inaccurate things about Caron Butler and he is playing about the same as last year. He is 6'7", not 6'5". He had enough lateral motion and wingspan last year to be an all-star. His shooting is not quite as good as last year and his foul shot percentage has gone down, but has gotten better in the last couple of games. Stats are:

2007-8 2008-9
PPG 20.3 20.2
fg% .466 .446
ft% .901 .821
3pt% .357 .360

Assists are down a bit, steals down, blocks the same, turnovers up one/tenth of a point, but some of this may be due to not having Brendan behind him.

Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... eca01.html

Caron Butler 6' 5.25" 6' 6.5" 222 [b]6' 11.5" 8' 7.5" NA 27.0 31.0 2 12.15 3.33 68 10
butler is on short side of 6'5..platform shoes takes him to 6'6. Either was he is far from 6'8-6'9 ideal height of a small forward that he normally guards each night and his wingspan is far from what a prototypical small forward standing at 6'8 would have. 6'8 proto small forward has 7'1 wingspan...butler has 6'11 wingspan which explains why he doesn't block alot of shots on perimeter and gives up a ton o threes.

[BruceO]

People are saying some inaccurate things about Caron Butler and he is playing about the same as last year. He is 6'7", not 6'5". He had enough lateral motion and wingspan last year to be an all-star. His shooting is not quite as good as last year and his foul shot percentage has gone down, but has gotten better in the last couple of games. Stats are:

2007-8 2008-9
PPG 20.3 20.2
fg% .466 .446
ft% .901 .821
3pt% .357 .360

Assists are down a bit, steals down, blocks the same, turnovers up one/tenth of a point, but some of this may be due to not having Brendan behind him.

Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... eca01.html

Caron Butler 6' 5.25" 6' 6.5" 222 [b]6' 11.5" 8' 7.5" NA 27.0 31.0 2 12.15 3.33 68 10
butler is on short side of 6'5..platform shoes takes him to 6'6. Either was he is far from 6'8-6'9 ideal height of a small forward that he normally guards each night and his wingspan is far from what a prototypical small forward standing at 6'8 would have. 6'8 proto small forward has 7'1 wingspan...butler has 6'11 wingspan which explains why he doesn't block alot of shots on perimeter and gives up a ton o threes.

I actually agree with you. As far as past moves ernie has made atleast the change has been made towards getting more physically able players for their positions. Seen by the drafting of Blatche, NY and Javale. The acquisition of Caron and Jamison were good moves considering what we gave up for them.
I have been questioning the use of Jamison as our starting PF. It's simply a matter of modelling. Think back to teams that are contenders. They guys who end up in the NBA final four and the PF's you get are Rasheed, Duncan, KG, Gasol. They are atleast 6 11' and able to defend C's as well as PF's. Now it would make sense to get a PF thats able to defend the C as well.
I said I wanted this type of player and mentioned a couple of people available. I was told these type of players don't grow on trees. I'm not sure if I was on this forum yet but I'd advocated getting Gasol and he had been mentioned in rumors so much I felt he would eventually be available. I'm quite sure Memphis would have taken Jamison for him. Send Jamison over there for half a season. Now thats no longer an option. There's a couple of young options to look at for that championship sized PF who will present problems. Blake Griffin, Blatche, Yi and Bargagni.
I like Javales potential as well. I'd like to have him increase strength. I was really excited about him during the draft and it wasn't because I somehow knew he was going to be a special player. It was because I looked at his height. It was good enough. He wasn't a songaila playing the C spot. I looked at his length. It was optimal for his position. Infact more than most C's. He was actually bothering Yao alot and he's a rookie. Sheer length and athleticism. No power yet.
I liked nick young. Because he was good height for his position. He has good length. I can't speak for his lateral speed because he looks like he's not there yet for me. He also lacks power but that will come. Hamilton, Kevin martin are having success as young gunners without maximum strength. I also look at the prototype shooting guard for championship teams and you have in recent past Wade, Kobe, Ray Allen, Manu Ginobli, Hamilton as well. So getting Nick young who is good offensively goes in line with the type of player we need to get without kidding ourselves.

I don't like caron as our small forward. Over the last few years I wondered what the prototype would be. For me it'd have to be someone who can'tbe defended by the SG or the PF. I looked at Danny Granger when he came in, Travis outlaw and Marvin williams who are good players and good scorers. All players are about 6 9' with length to shot block. Watching Deshawn defend Lebron who is 3 inches and atleast 40 pounds heavier was (Please Use More Appropriate Word). ofcourse we got abused. Where was our small forward? Where was Caron when Lebron was abusing us. You see how Quentin Richardson abuses Caron on the perimeter with his shooting? I saw caron not be able to beat David Lee off the dribble. I don't think he stops on a dime too. Don't get me wrong. Carons a beast but theres some things that will limit him. I'm okay with keeping him but something has to be done about being able to defend Lebron. Carmelo abused him too. He struggled against Artest and he struggled against Marion. Also he can't defend Hedo or Rashaad.


1) So with AD being old,
2) Deshawn not being tall enough to be able to defend both SG and SF while not being able to put pressure on Defenses.
3)Juan not being strong enough, big enough or laterally quick enough to not being a liability on Defense
4) Dee being simply small
5) mcguire not being able to defend laterally well
6) songaila being short , foul prone and not able to elevate well
7) Etan having no ability to score on the block. He misses point blank shots and gives us no ability to play an inside out game.

leaves
1) Gil who needs to be show more defensive commitment
2) Nick young who needs to be stronger and more aggresive, have more intangibles and basketball IQ and be better defensively
3) Blatche who needs to be very conditioned and get NBA strength. He also looks slow to me. He has to over speed to get some things done and thats why he gets out of control IMO
4) Haywood who needs to take some more step forwards offensively in the post
5) Javale who needs to develop NBA strength and a post game
6) pech who needs more speed and a post game.

Look what portland has done. Portland has gone after prototypes for all their young players and they are getting a chance to play. Now if you combine players drafted higher than ours, who are more prototypical and have better tools, and are also getting more playing time from a young age. It's no wonder those guys will do better than ours.

I'd really like to trade some of our players to get into that roster. Tanking at least changes the status quo. This is if we get Blake Griffin. I'm increasing getting excited about him. He can have the impact of other number ones and two's. The recent top pics have not dropped off in production. Rose is doing well and is better than average and is changing franchise direction. Beasley too. Melo, Lebron, Dwight etc. Griffin is being a beast right now. Reminds me of a Boozer, Amare or Dwight prototype. Strong good ,rebounder and able to get high percentage points in post

[omegatronic3]

uhh mister moderator what's up with deleting my posts? I've been on this board a long time so show some respect!

Anyways I'll paraphrase myself and see if you feel it necessary to delete.

Basically responding to the lengthy threads on length. Length is good but not the be all for perimiter players...you dont need to block shots on the perimiter..just contest and keep your man in front of you. We do neither because we sag off guys and give them open looks cos we cant stay in front of them.

In the paint its differnet size matters...you better be either big or long or both...

Our problem is that beyond individual play we have no team play on D. Obviously haywood was a big equalizer.

[miller31time]

uhh mister moderator what's up with deleting my posts? I've been on this board a long time so show some respect!

Not sure what you're talking about. There haven't been any deleted posts on the forum (as evidence by the moderator log which the other Wiz-Board mods can view and verify). I don't delete posts unless someone is spamming the site. Otherwise, I edit them if I see something wrong but only if it really crosses the line.

Remember that, ever since the big change of RealGM, things have been messed up (sometimes, posts won't go get posted, even though the "submit" button was hit, etc). I'd bet that is the case here.

[tkunit]

charles barkley, stockton..none where great defenders. you put these same guys into todays game with no hand checking and they will get roasted on defense. Steve Nash and john stockton are nearly identical..and you see what happens to steve nash each night. charles barkley would get destroyed every night going against dwight howard.
effort is important but it will only take you so far, eddie has milked these team off effort for the last 3 years.

The only thing stockton and nash have in common is that they are white. Barkley would have never matched up against howard on the D end either. Hand checking certainly helped some on the perimitor but players like stockton would have adapted and adjusted. Plus wasn't stockton still playing when they added the hand checking rules.

[hands11]

Sound like all this leads to playing AB at PF and moving AJ and CB up a slot which is what I have wanted since ABs second year. Once he was ready to play again after the shooting, we should have started working him into the starting line up. At a min. we should have found mins on the floor for

Haywood, AB, AJ, CB, - PG ( depending on who was healthy. )

But we never saw this. We hardly saw it last year or the year before.

Hell, I remember a stretch of games where Haywood was out so AB started. It was the first games he started. Like 7-8 in a row. I think CB and AJ where in and out because of injury so we didn't win a ton of them but AB was doing great. He got some starting burn with different combinations. But then once AJ was healthy and Haywood was back, you never saw him with both of them. Not even as a second line up.

This is one reason why EJ is EFJ. The line ups we really needed to get on the floor which would have lead to them starting never got enough mins so this team could grow into playing AB as the starting PF.

It has a lot to do with length, size and athletic. Haywood and Blatche give you that in the post.

EG isn't perfect but he has done well given the picks we had and what we needed. He took a lot of shots at finding post player who don't come cheap or just low draft picks.

One things this team did need after being so bad for so long was stable character and success. CB and AJ gave you that so they weren't going anywhere.

Now we have that talented young center to replace Haywood eventually so the future is set there and the present looks great. Haywood and McGee are a solid foundation.

Honestly, you could move just about any player off the team to build around that. But for now, if we had Haywood healthy, it would be a nice line to have.

Haywood, AB
McGee, AB
Haywood, McGee

Throw in one more super star and you have a solid team. Add Wade to that, and you have a winner.

[cwb3]

Dude you were spot on about Caron. I didn't want to see it because I love Caron, but you were right and I was dead wrong. The guy is a joke defensively. The big 3 are the worse defenders on this team. That's not leadership.

I disagree. I think Caron can be a decent defender, about average, in the right system. QRich got all those points because Butler kept sagging into the lane. That's a problem with system (or perhaps with Butler's execution of the system) but it's not an intrinsic problem with Butler's defensive abilities.

I'll readily admit that Butler sometimes has trouble staying in front of really quick small forwards, but overall, I think his man-to-man defensive abilities are adequate. I've seen him shut down Paul Pierce and play Lebron James pretty tough for stretches. He also gets a lot of steals with his quick hands and he's a very good defensive rebounder for a SF.

What I could not understand was who they were sagging into the lane to double team? David Lee, Wilson Chandler? From the get-go the game was ALL about the NYK hitting three's. Our perimater players just had to stay on thier guys. McGee, Blache, Dominic, even Etan could handle the Knick's non-existent post threat. There was ZERO reason to ever leave a man open on the 3 line.

Really about the worst game I've had to sit thru in years. To make it worse I watched the game at my little brothers place, he's got that 70-something inch LG plasma with HD. Sucking in HD is even worse to watch.

[nate33]

I've had it with EJ.

At this point, the only reason not to fire him is that EG can't convince a good coach prospect to come in mid-season and replace him.

I guess EG had had enough too.