Wizards offer(ed) Arenas to Houston for McGrady

[LyricalRico]

I've seen enough through 30 games that although it may seem likes he's progressing given his stats, that's fools gold...He may put up 24 and 6 assists, which any pg would like, but if you factor in his fg %, turnovers, pourous defense, and individual play down the stretch (forced jump shots, not getting others involved, etc.)., we're better off without him...

See, I don't see Gil this way at all. First off, he's not the only one taking bad shots but he does seem to be the only one making nice passes most of the time. Second, if he had his explosion back 100% and was getting calls from the refs like he should, he wouldn't be taking as many jumpers in the 4th. Third, you can't get others involved if they aren't running the same offense you are. If Butler's not in the right spot or Jamison is hanging out at the 3pt line instead of banging in the paint, that's not Gil's fault.

And the part I find funny is that if the guy is such a net negative, why would you then turn around and say that he would make another team a contender? That doesn't make sense. Either the guy can help a team win or he can't. And if he can, then we need to put the right kinds of players around him to maximize his value - not dump him for peanuts.

[Shanghai Kid]

I'm kind of iffy on the whole thing. Yes, Gilbert is overpaid. It is a fact, plain and simple. Yes, Gilbert is not a great defender, plain and simple. But, in my opinion he will not easily be replaced in the long run. Gilbert Arenas still is the only real star player the Wizards have had in a long time.
And I'm seeing enough signs lately to suggest that Gilbert probably is going to become a top 15 player again shortly, whether it's on the Wizards or another team who knows. If you think about it, in December he averaged 25ppg/7 assits/5 rebounds. Whose to say next season he's not capable of 28ppg/7 assists/5 rebounds? Nobody is going to call him overpaid with those numbers.

My fear with a complete overhaul is that the Wizards may find it hard to actually find another All-Star player through drafts or free agency. It's a complete crap shoot. And if they do find an All-Star guard, it may be more in the Michael Redd mold, somebody who is a good player but not a true #1 option. Gil at his best is that guy, he can't ever be Wade or Kobe or Lebron, but he can be a similar go to guy in the fourth quarters when healthy. And you HAVE to have that guy to win in the NBA.

If you keep Gilbert around, and rebuild around him, than your always capable of contending if you can get another really good player next to him.

[fishercob]

Call me a fool, but I'm not sure we still can't build around Gil.

He is showing signs of progressing on both ends of the court. He is never going to be an elite defender, but at least, under Flip, he is putting forth the effort. He is also starting to make some better pass, shoot decisions.

Put him on a team of pros, willing to sacrifice their games, play team defense and play a role and he could carry us pretty far.

Fool

I'm torn. LSBF, part of me says "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me." Gil's paid max money, only plays hard on one end of the floor, has contributed greatly to the terrible culture of non-existent defense here, and thus we'd be better without him.

And part of me says, surround him with a hypotherical supporting cast of Haywood, Blatche, Gerald Wallace, Thabo Sefolosha, Kyle Lowry and Mike Miller, and he could be the offensive engine of a really good team.

I just dont know. I love the guy, but have severe doubts as to how much we can win with him.

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

Call me a fool, but I'm not sure we still can't build around Gil.

He is showing signs of progressing on both ends of the court. He is never going to be an elite defender, but at least, under Flip, he is putting forth the effort. He is also starting to make some better pass, shoot decisions.

Put him on a team of pros, willing to sacrifice their games, play team defense and play a role and he could carry us pretty far.

Fool

That's some insight. Thanks for your well-reasoned rejoinder.

[VictorPage44]

And I'm seeing enough signs lately to suggest that Gilbert probably is going to become a top 15 player again shortly, whether it's on the Wizards or another team who knows. If you think about it, in December he averaged 25ppg/7 assits/5 rebounds. Whose to say next season he's not capable of 28ppg/7 assists/5 rebounds? Nobody is going to call him overpaid with those numbers.

.

He's averaging 28/7/5 on 44/43/79 over the last eight games--which equates to a pretty good TS%, though I'm not going to go through the hastle of crunching all those numbers. Barring another injury, theres no reason he wont put up those type of numbers in the second half of the season. His legs still arent 100% under him, which is shown by the fact that hes fading in the 3rd and, especially, 4th quarters (when earlier in his career he was a beast).

Besides, there's only one option, to let gilbert come around again. Very few GMs have the authority to make a trade for gilbert, and the ones who do arent going to risk their jobs on him.

Edit: he has to get his strength/conditioning back, and get mentally reaclimated to the game again. After 2 years off, I dont think that's possible in 2 months. The only foolish thing would be to assume hes done progressing from where he was at at the beginning of the season.

[closg00]

I would like to start a betting-pool on where T-Mac will land and who he will be traded for. I hope peeps don't mind a separate thread.

[hands11]

For all you still holding out hope that this team can be built around Arenas, please stop dreaming...I've seen enough through 30 games that although it may seem likes he's progressing given his stats, that's fools gold...He may put up 24 and 6 assists, which any pg would like, but if you factor in his fg %, turnovers, pourous defense, and individual play down the stretch (forced jump shots, not getting others involved, etc.)., we're better off without him...Two teams that I feel would take on his contract are the Clippers and Portland. Clippers b/c he would sell tix back in his hometown of LA and we can essentially do a swap for B. Davis/Camby for Arenas/Haywood....And Portland b/c Paul Allen has the deepest pockets of any owner and the addition of Arenas and Haywood without touching their core of Roy and Aldridge would make them title contenders in the West...

This is the most severe public spanking these three have taken EVER.

Gil is still young enough to put it together. EJ never came down on him like this. This is the type of challenge Gil gets motivated by. Getting ride of all three of these guys would be a mistake. Getting ride of one of them would probably be wise.

Should be interesting to see what they do next game. All eyes will be watching after Flip flipped.

[hands11]

I'm kind of iffy on the whole thing. Yes, Gilbert is overpaid. It is a fact, plain and simple. Yes, Gilbert is not a great defender, plain and simple. But, in my opinion he will not easily be replaced in the long run. Gilbert Arenas still is the only real star player the Wizards have had in a long time.
And I'm seeing enough signs lately to suggest that Gilbert probably is going to become a top 15 player again shortly, whether it's on the Wizards or another team who knows. If you think about it, in December he averaged 25ppg/7 assits/5 rebounds. Whose to say next season he's not capable of 28ppg/7 assists/5 rebounds? Nobody is going to call him overpaid with those numbers.

My fear with a complete overhaul is that the Wizards may find it hard to actually find another All-Star player through drafts or free agency. It's a complete crap shoot. And if they do find an All-Star guard, it may be more in the Michael Redd mold, somebody who is a good player but not a true #1 option. Gil at his best is that guy, he can't ever be Wade or Kobe or Lebron, but he can be a similar go to guy in the fourth quarters when healthy. And you HAVE to have that guy to win in the NBA.

If you keep Gilbert around, and rebuild around him, than your always capable of contending if you can get another really good player next to him.

Agreed. It took us to long to climb out of the decades long cave we were in. Id say let Gil go if we could get Wade but to leave this ship rudderless isnt going to work either.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

If the trade was Arenas + James for TMac, I'd do it. If we also dumped Jamison onto Cleveland, we'd have a clean slate. We'd have $34M in cap space. If we resign Haywood and Miller (something I'd like to do), we'd have $20M in cap space.

That would leave us with the following roster:
PG
SG Miller/Young
SF Butler
PF Blatche
C Haywood/McGee

That's not a bad core group. Maybe we also trade Butler, but Miller and Haywood would be good veteran leaders for the youngsters that we acquire.

We'd tank for the rest of the season because there's no point guard, which gives us a high lotto pick. Then, use the $20M to save over-the-luxtax teams by buying off their first rounders and/or good players.

+1

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Call me a fool, but I'm not sure we still can't build around Gil.

He is showing signs of progressing on both ends of the court. He is never going to be an elite defender, but at least, under Flip, he is putting forth the effort. He is also starting to make some better pass, shoot decisions.

Put him on a team of pros, willing to sacrifice their games, play team defense and play a role and he could carry us pretty far.

I agree with this. The last few games I've seen the following from Gil:

1. He's been trying to fight through picks.
2. He's been agressively ball-hawking. The steals have not simply come from playing the passing lanes... there have been several that came from his help defense and double-teams.
3. He's been trying to contest shots. He's actually had a couple blocked shots last night.

Yes, he is still getting beat regularly off the dribble. No, overall he is not a good defender. But I'm very encouraged because I'm seeing signs that he wants to get better. He is putting forth effort. He is a big guard and NBA point guards are probably always going to be able to drive past him. But as long as he is giving good effort and trying to play better team defense, I think he can be a major part of a winning team.

lsbf and GSG, while I agree with both of you about Gil's game and his effort/intensity of late, the bottom line for me lies in his contract and history of knee surgeries at the PG position.

I'm with nate. If you get the chance to move him, I say do it.

Gil can have a great career elsewhere and I'd be very happy for him if he did. I just don't see it happening for him in DC.

[AceDegenerate]

Fans can act like we need Arenas all they want. I get it from a fan's perspective, I don't want to see him go either. That is not the point, like CCJ and nate have alluded to, the guy is simply way overpaid for what he is going to produce on this contract. IF (which I can all but guarantee it's not) the opportunity is there to simply release ourselves from his contract (trade for an expiring), there is no way we could pass that up.

This team simply has no flexibility to build around Arenas with how he is being paid. The guy will be making 20 million a year and will probably not provide much more than one of these High-1st Rd picks we've been selling away for the past few years. They get paid like 1/4 of what he does and could provide almost the same thing (aside from in the Ticket booth maybe).

Gilbert got his contract as a 25-year old 30PPG scorer. That is something so rare in this leage that if he never got injured and kept it up, he was on his way to the Hall Of Fame someday. Those are the kind of players worth Max contracts, not a gimpy 22/6/3 guy who plays ZERO defense.

[MJG]

...

The guy will be making 20 million a year

...

This is what I think needs to be repeated over and over. $20 million per year, for four more years past this one. He is very overpaid and will continue to be for a long time. Dumping his contract, even for absolutely nothing in return, would be a fantastic long-term move for the organization.

I think the trouble people are having is, after waiting two years to get Arenas back, and finally seeing him play fairly well the past couple of weeks after a very rough start, that they want to feel that all this wait was worth something. The idea that we were so hopeful and patient for so long, only to dump the guy right as he's rounding back into form, is just something some people are not willing to process.

[closg00]

...

The guy will be making 20 million a year

...

This is what I think needs to be repeated over and over. $20 million per year, for four more years past this one. He is very overpaid and will continue to be for a long time. Dumping his contract, even for absolutely nothing in return, would be a fantastic long-term move for the organization.

I think the trouble people are having is, after waiting two years to get Arenas back, and finally seeing him play fairly well the past couple of weeks after a very rough start, that they want to feel that all this wait was worth something. The idea that we were so hopeful and patient for so long, only to dump the guy right as he's rounding back into form, is just something some people are not willing to process.

Don't love how Gilbert wrote an opt-out for himself in year-4 of the contract (which he'll never do), but Ernie did not include a similar clause to protect the Wizard org or it's fans. No-wonder David Khan fleeced a desperate Ernie pre-draft. Ernie is as soft as his draft picks & FA signings.

[AgentZero_MN]

i don't want Gil to play in HOU