Official Thread -- Wizards at Bulls Preseason (10/8/10)

[Wizards2Lottery]

Coach and system not right for him? Is the coach the reason why McGee is getting pushed around by a stiff Euro?

Watching McGee try to rebound is embarrassing. I can't imagine the frustration Flip must have felt last night when McGee was constantly out of position and not boxing out. I don't want him to yank McGee because our options behind him are even worse, but there's a serious problem at hand when you are now a 3 year NBA pro and you can't even carry out basic fundamentals of basketball.

When he is in position to get rebounds, he doesn't time his jump properly. His fundamentals are seriously flawed and I doubt that's a Flip problem since Flip has had good big men throughout his coaching tenure. Plus we've seen major improvements by Blatche under Flip (maybe even Yi). Seems to me that this is more of a problem on McGee's end.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Coach and system not right for him? Is the coach the reason why McGee is getting pushed around by a stiff Euro?

Watching McGee try to rebound is embarrassing. I can't imagine the frustration Flip must have felt last night when McGee was constantly out of position and not boxing out. I don't want him to yank McGee because our options behind him are even worse, but there's a serious problem at hand when you are now a 3 year NBA pro and you can't even carry out basic fundamentals of basketball.

When he is in position to get rebounds, he doesn't time his jump properly. His fundamentals are seriously flawed and I doubt that's a Flip problem since Flip has had good big men throughout his coaching tenure. Plus we've seen major improvements by Blatche under Flip (maybe even Yi). Seems to me that this is more of a problem on McGee's end.

Omer Asik is hardly a Euro stiff.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Omer-Asik-5033/

The players were put through a number of drills—ball-handling, the Mikan drill, finishing through contact in the post and coming off a screen, pick and rolls, pick and pops, 5-spot shooting from mid-range, running the floor, and then competitive 2 on 2’s and 3 on 3.

Omer Asik clearly stood out from the pack as being the most intriguing big men in attendance, almost from the very start. He had the best frame of the four (great size at a legit 7-feet, good shoulders, a solid lower body, a nice 7-2 wingspan and 9-4 standing reach) to go along with the best motor and the most athleticism of the four. He came out with a business-like mentality, dunking everything around the rim (even when it wasn’t called for), not giving anyone an inch to breathe defensively, pushing guys out of the paint mercilessly, shooting the ball better than expected in the mid-range drills, and just leaving a very solid (and quite competitive) impression ...

I didn't see the game but I know the Bulls have Thibodeau as coach now. He's the best defensive coach in the league. They've got Noah at C, a great rebounder and defender. They've got Gibson on the bench, great rebounder and defender who IIRC was second team all rookie. Because he played four years at USC, Taj Gibson is nearly three years older than Javale McGee. Omer Asik, the guy you called a stiff, has been playing in various European pro leagues for years. He is two years older than McGee.

Javale has spindly legs, narrow hips, and is still very young. That he's getting pushed away from the basket by stronger, more experienced players is not shocking to me at all. Third-year pro is 22 years old. He's actually still less experienced than 90% of the guys he's going up against.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Washington just needs to be patient with Javale McGee. Stop putting all the attention on him. Blatche is rounding into form. The bigs are very young. Rebounding will be a work in progress.

[Wizardspride]

Washington just needs to be patient with Javale McGee. Stop putting all the attention on him. Blatche is rounding into form. The bigs are very young. Rebounding will be a work in progress.

+1

[hands11]

TheGreatWall, take a look at Kaman's career figures. 11.7 points, 8.4 rebounds, 30 mins a night for his career. He's a much better defensive rebounder than McGee. However, at 28 years old he's had a lot of mediocre seasons.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nch01.html

I'm sure most agree with you and would trade for Kaman or Haywood at his present contract. I think McGee at 22 years old, 6 and 8 years younger than Kaman and Haywood, just needs time. Too often the Wizards have traded a guy like Rasheed or Rip or Ben Wallace when they weren't valued very highly.

My opinion is that McGee is highly skilled and athletic but this coach and system might not be right for him. I know the fans are way too impatient with him. I figure in time all parties concerned will be better off if McGee is traded, if they just want to make him the single scapegoat for the team's problems.

Nahh, I don't think you give up on him yet. And if you wanted to trade him, we should wait. His trade value is going to go up still. 3rd year for a guy like him is nothing. You have to wait at least until after he has 3 or 4 years. The main problem is, he is a off the bench player right now and we need a starter.

The sad thing is we had Haywood and Dray and McGee. Haywood starting with Dray and Mcgee and AJ backing them up would have been perfect. But we signed AJ back for to much money to make it easier to do that and didn't have a coach who would convince him it was time to come off the bench. He could have played 25-30 minutes a game and scored just as much and cleaned up against second units on a winning team.

I don't blame Flip so much for not doing it. He didn't have enough time with Haywood, Dray, CB, Gil and AJ to make the switch without the boat sinking, which is did anyway. If only someone could have convinced AJ to sign for something more like 8-9M a year, it could have worked. This is where not have Abe, EG and EFJ on the same page didn't work. Abe wanted to win now and loved AJ. So did EFJ.

Now look at him. Trade to Fing Cleveland. Man, when people say you create your own hell, boy are they right. AJ and Gil can contest to that. They wanted the money and to be THE MAN more than winning. I still remember all of Gils talk about wanting a max way before he needed to be talking about it. And he did it publicly. Then he left up hanging while he vacationed in China while Abe was rubbing his sack. I want to look forward with Gil but he isn't without blame in what happened to him. Same with AJ.

Last years team should have been a winner if if if.

Gil/Boykins
MM/Foye/DS
CB/NY
Dray/AJ
Haywood/McGee/FAB

With Critter and James of the side

Wasn't this what we started the year with for a roster?

They could have won if they moved the pieces around and split MM at SG and SF and AJ as SF and PF.

But I like our talent, youth, cap space better now.

[TheGreatWall]

Coach and system not right for him? Is the coach the reason why McGee is getting pushed around by a stiff Euro?

Watching McGee try to rebound is embarrassing. I can't imagine the frustration Flip must have felt last night when McGee was constantly out of position and not boxing out. I don't want him to yank McGee because our options behind him are even worse, but there's a serious problem at hand when you are now a 3 year NBA pro and you can't even carry out basic fundamentals of basketball.

When he is in position to get rebounds, he doesn't time his jump properly. His fundamentals are seriously flawed and I doubt that's a Flip problem since Flip has had good big men throughout his coaching tenure. Plus we've seen major improvements by Blatche under Flip (maybe even Yi). Seems to me that this is more of a problem on McGee's end.

+1.

Last night did not make me feel better about our starting center(s). I want Javale to succeed, but he needs to concentrate on working on what makes a good basketball player, not what will get him a top 10 play on sportscenter.

[hands11]

Coach and system not right for him? Is the coach the reason why McGee is getting pushed around by a stiff Euro?

Watching McGee try to rebound is embarrassing. I can't imagine the frustration Flip must have felt last night when McGee was constantly out of position and not boxing out. I don't want him to yank McGee because our options behind him are even worse, but there's a serious problem at hand when you are now a 3 year NBA pro and you can't even carry out basic fundamentals of basketball.

When he is in position to get rebounds, he doesn't time his jump properly. His fundamentals are seriously flawed and I doubt that's a Flip problem since Flip has had good big men throughout his coaching tenure. Plus we've seen major improvements by Blatche under Flip (maybe even Yi). Seems to me that this is more of a problem on McGee's end.

+1.

Last night did not make me feel better about our starting center(s). I want Javale to succeed, but he needs to concentrate on working on what makes a good basketball player, not what will get him a top 10 play on sportscenter.

Stop it. He is not a 3 year pro. He is a 2 year pro and he is 22. He has logged 2100 minutes. Dray logged that many minutes last year alone.

Hell, the kid is a baby. He even grown an inch last year. He did good work over the summer putting on that much muscle.

So he isn't polished yet. How many kids in his situation would be after 2 years at his age at 7-1? Hell, I'm not even sure if he is convinced he wants to be a center yet. When Momma McGee was saying play him with Haywood, did you think she was talking about Haywood being the PF ? Don't think what came out of her mouth was just something she came up with out of the blue.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if one day you are reading that McGee wants out because he wants to go some place where he can play PF. Wouldn't shock me at all. The way he works on his outside game in the off-season. This kid just might have a plan. Get better on the Wizards dime. Stay low key about wanting to play PF, then in 2012, bolt.

[pancakes3]

tyson chandler went into his 3rd year as a 20 year old, equally skinny, possibly more raw, and looked a lot better than mcgee does right now.

the idiocy of mcgee holding out on a contract just so he can play PF is immense

[hands11]

tyson chandler went into his 3rd year as a 20 year old, equally skinny, possibly more raw, and looked a lot better than mcgee does right now.

the idiocy of mcgee holding out on a contract just so he can play PF is immense

Why ?

[montestewart]

tyson chandler went into his 3rd year as a 20 year old, equally skinny, possibly more raw, and looked a lot better than mcgee does right now.

Chandler was 21 in his 3rd year, was a #2 pick, and had played more in his first two years than McGee, but if you look at the per 36 numbers in those first two years, they are pretty similar. Yeah, Chandler looked better, but still he looked lost at times back then on both offense and defense.

I concede frustration with McGee, and he may never work out, but it hasn't been enough time, and I wonder (as I always wonder) why many teams don't throw more resources at projects (underskilled, overweight, etc.). If they're doing everything they can to teach McGee and motivate him to improve his strength, knowledge, and skills, they sure aren't promoting that fact very well.

[pancakes3]

the idiocy of mcgee holding out on a contract just so he can play PF is immense

Why ?

mcgee's only marketable quality is his size. he has no PF skills to speak of. he can't rebound, he can't shoot, and he doesn't hustle. hustling is important. as a C all he has to do is lug himself up and down the court, establish position, and rebound. put him in a PF's shoes and all of a sudden he has to go to the perimeter and challenge shots from charlie v, d west, and jamison, keep people like bosh/stat from taking him off the dribble, have more responsibilities on TRANSITION defense, and do all this while still being an effective force on the boards? you think he has asthma/foul issues now...

conventional wisdom is conventional for a reason. you don't stick your 7'1 250 guy at pf because his body isn't built for that. just tell him to do his dang job.

NEWSFLASH MCGEE, SOMETIMES PEOPLE DON'T LIKE THEIR JOBS. SOMETIMES THEY THINK THEY CAN DO THINGS BETTER DIFFERENTLY. HOWEVER, IF YOUR BOSS TELLS YOU TO DO IT HIS WAY, YOU JUST DO IT. WHY? IT'S YOUR FREAKIN JOB. YOU DON'T LIKE IT? GO START YOUR OWN NBA TEAM. 80% OF NEW SMALL BUSINESSES FAIL, SO BE CAREFUL.

[TheGreatWall]

LOL at McGee playing power forward.

[sarcasm]Hey Blatche has some good passing and ball-handling skills -- why don't we play him at the point. He'd have a 9 inch advantage on pretty much any point guard in the league.[/sarcasm]

Well, that makes as much sense as Mcgee playing power forward. Javale has no real skillset outside of catching alley-oops and occasionally getting a highlight block. In today's NBA, power forwards are perimeter and interior threats. If you can't spread the floor, you're not playing anything but the 5. It's why Ben Wallace never played the 4, although his height was better suited for that position.

Hands -- it won't do any good to this team if the coaching staff become "enablers" and allow Javale to play like a wimp because he doesn't want to bang downlow. They need to get rid of the bad habits in his game right now if they plan on making him a staple of this franchise.

[Dat2U]

LOL at McGee playing power forward.

[sarcasm]Hey Blatche has some good passing and ball-handling skills -- why don't we play him at the point. He'd have a 9 inch advantage on pretty much any point guard in the league.[/sarcasm]

Actually EJ & his staff tried Blatche at SF in a point forward role his first couple of years in the league. It was an abject disaster and honestly I think it contributed to Blatche's slow development. I still remember Blatche in his rookie year trying to take Matt Harpring (probably the slowest SF in the league at the time) off the dribble and being stonewalled repeatedly. I also remember Blatche playing the point forward role in summer league and putting up huge numbers but averaging like 5/6 TOs a game. Or the times when Andray tried to guard Carmelo Anthony. Carmelo abused him like an ugly step child every time and even got his career high with Blatche guarding him.

McGee at PF would probably be an even bigger disaster.

[nate33]

I think the Chandler comparison is close, though perhaps a bit optimistic. Chandler wasn't a very good ball player until he broke out in his 4th year. Like McGee, he could accumulate stats, but he didn't help his team win. Then, suddenly, in his 4th season, he figured the game out and became a defensive force.

His on/off differential in his third season was -3.5.
By his fourth season, it jumped to +3.1.
In his fifth season, it was +4.5.

We'll have to wait and see if things click for McGee. McGee is older, so one would hope that it won't take quite as long as it took Chandler. On the other hand, Chandler got more minutes as a young player.

[fishercob]

I think the Chandler comparison is close, though perhaps a bit optimistic. Chandler wasn't a very good ball player until he broke out in his 4th year. Like McGee, he could accumulate stats, but he didn't help his team win. Then, suddenly, in his 4th season, he figured the game out and became a defensive force.

His on/off differential in his third season was -3.5.
By his fourth season, it jumped to +3.1.
In his fifth season, it was +4.5.

We'll have to wait and see if things click for McGee. McGee is older, so one would hope that it won't take quite as long as it took Chandler. On the other hand, Chandler got more minutes as a young player.

It does appear that Chandler's defensive, offensive, and overall rebounding percentages spiked his third year in the league. Marcus Camby (at 24 and 25 respectively) in his 3rd and 4th years saw big bumps too. In that respect, I suppose there's some hope for McGee. If he's able to grow his game the way those guys did, then look out.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Chandler always was a hellacious rebounder. Even by his third year Tyson Chandler was a beast on the boards. He's flat out incredible on the board when he's healthy.

Javale is not the same type of player as Chandler. McGee is not as physical. McGee doesn't appear to me to be as strong. McGee is a better shotblocker. McGee has a whole lot more skill handling the ball and is a much better scorer than Chandler.

McGee's a potential 18-20 ppg scorer, and he will routinely block 3-5 shots a game. Chandler is a terrible offensive player, but he's a better defender and rebounder than Javale--by a lot.

[nate33]

Pace-adjusted per-36 production.

Code: Select all

chandler,  PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO   PF eFG%  TS%  PER
2009-10   10.5 10.1  0.5  0.5  1.8  2.9  4.4 .574 .643 12.6
2008-09   10.3 10.4  0.6  0.4  1.5  1.8  3.8 .561 .577 13.4
2007-08   12.4 12.4  1.1  0.6  1.1  1.8  3.3 .623 .632 17.6
2006-07   10.0 13.2  1.0  0.5  1.9  1.8  3.6 .625 .620 17.0
2005-06    7.0 12.0  1.4  0.7  1.7  2.1  5.0 .565 .567 12.2
2004-05   10.5 12.7  1.1  1.1  2.3  1.9  4.4 .494 .565 16.5
2003-04    9.9 12.6  1.1  0.8  2.0  1.8  4.1 .424 .507 14.4
2002-03   13.4 10.0  1.5  0.7  2.1  2.6  4.3 .531 .565 15.8
2001-02   11.7  9.2  1.4  0.7  2.5  2.7  4.8 .497 .543 13.1

mcgee,jav  PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO   PF eFG%  TS%  PER
2009-10   14.6  9.2  0.5  0.6  3.8  1.9  4.6 .508 .539 17.2
2008-09   15.6  9.6  0.7  1.1  2.3  1.9  5.0 .489 .530 16.9

Note that McGee's rebounding was pretty close to Chandler's in their first two seasons. Chandler didn't become a rebounding monster until Year 3.

[fishercob]

Chandler always was a hellacious rebounder. Even by his third year Tyson Chandler was a beast on the boards. He's flat out incredible on the board when he's healthy.

Javale is not the same type of player as Chandler. McGee is not as physical. McGee doesn't appear to me to be as strong. McGee is a better shotblocker. McGee has a whole lot more skill handling the ball and is a much better scorer than Chandler.

McGee's a potential 18-20 ppg scorer, and he will routinely block 3-5 shots a game. Chandler is a terrible offensive player, but he's a better defender and rebounder than Javale--by a lot.

Nate's response to this post is interesting. I also wonder about the contention of Chandler's superior physicality. Chandler was in his third season when this wonderful photo was taken:



Here he was as a high school senior:


Physically, it would appear that McGee has the tools to rebound like Chandler.

[dobrojim]

Chandler always was a hellacious rebounder. Even by his third year Tyson Chandler was a beast on the boards. He's flat out incredible on the board when he's healthy.

Javale is not the same type of player as Chandler. McGee is not as physical. McGee doesn't appear to me to be as strong. McGee is a better shotblocker. McGee has a whole lot more skill handling the ball and is a much better scorer than Chandler.

McGee's a potential 18-20 ppg scorer, and he will routinely block 3-5 shots a game. Chandler is a terrible offensive player, but he's a better defender and rebounder than Javale--by a lot.

Nate's response to this post is interesting. I also wonder about the contention of Chandler's superior physicality. Chandler was in his third season when this wonderful photo was taken:

If I get a chance to meet Hinrich, I want to ask him about that play
because I've long contended that KH fouled Gil on the shot which
isn't clear in this particular picture but can be seen on others and
in video. He gets him on the forearm. Of course it didn't matter.