Official Game Thread - Wizards vs. Bobcats 11/12/10

[dlts20]

The Thorton Injury Sucks, But........




the one good thing about it is that Gil may finally get a start. I hope Al isnt out because I like what he brings but I said all along that Gil should start this next game when you look at the SG's we have coming up. They are either non scorers or they are averaged sized SG's. Its the perfect time to put Gil in.

Im probably in the minority but I actually like what Im seeing from Gil. Dont get me wrong, he makes me want to pull my hair out alot of times but I think the majority of his problems come from rust, timing, & being a little out of shape. His all around game has been beast though. He goes for boards harder than anyone on our team. Thats one huge reason why I wanted him starting over Kirk from the jump because we need those boards and he can get some of the one's that our bigs cant. I also still think he's probably the best pure passer & decision maker on our team.

His problems come in with his handles & his shooting/scoring ability. I think all of that will come back with time. He's always had some of the best handles in the league. He can pretty much do any move & never lose the ball. However, over the last 2 years he loses the ball alot when he tries to make a move. Then because the ball gets lost, the defender is off him some which leaves Gil pretty open for the shot but your pretty much always going to miss it if you lose the rock & then shoot it up. His legs clearly arent fully under him yet. Once he gets those backs then those J's will go down.

I loved yesterday when he couldnt make a J so he started to drive everytime & every single time he got us a great shot for someone else. Its great to see him penetrate more and when he gets comfortable then he will start looking for his shot. He will get alot more comfortable by starting. Having to sit makes him nervous & you can tell it just throws him off some so it takes him awhile to find his game. His D has actually been pretty good also.

I thought Flip actually mightve cost us 3 games. I think he cost us the Hawks game by benching McGee for Yi down the stretch. Then I think he cost us the Cavs game by benching Thorton for Gil when Al was a beast & Gil was clearly out of it. Then I thought last night that Wall shouldve been benched for NY. You cant worry about who your stars are, you have to play the best fit at the time. Gil was taking over with his playmaking skills in the 4th so we needed another shooter on the floor. Too many times Gil drove only to kick to a wide open Wall that is forced to take that J and we all know thats not a great idea. If NY was in that spot then things look different. Wall or anyone else doesnt have to finish every single game. If one game brings a better mix with someone else then you plya that guy.

Anyways, I think Gil is getting more confident about how he's playing D, rebounding, passing, and making plays for others. Now the last step is the scoring & I think that comes when he starts. He had his best Preseason game against the Bulls and they start Bogans at the 2. Let Gil start & let Al sit & get healthy. You can start Kirk at the 3 if you want since Flip likes that lineup & he's playing the Bulls but I have no doubt that when Al comes back then Gil will still be the starter. He'll play that well.

Some probably think we suck & are dissapointed but Im not. I think we are still good to go. I look at it like we are in these games with Gil sucking at scoring. When he gets back to being a real threat who can score even 20 then these games will look alot different and thats not even including adding Howard & Dray getting more into shape. Some probably think Gil wont get back to that but trust, he will. You can see it. Its just about finding your way right now. Him & Wall together will be sick & Kirk will be one of the best backup PG's in the league. I may even leave Howard on the bench with him all year if Gil gets back right. Thorton is solid and then you have a great veteran bench with Kirk, Howard, and Yi or whoever. I honestly wouldn't be shocked if Gil looked good and we beat the Bulls or come very close tonight, seriously

Not sure if you read the other posts before writing this but yeah, that is pretty much the summary.

As for tonight. Hmm. There is no telling when or how this team will win right now. I thought AT was our sick, not injured. Longer term I think we will be ok but if we don't have AT playing, I don't see a player that is healthy that I feel confident in replacing what he has been for us this year. He has been that country strong body who has scored on moves to the basket and who has also hit from outside. Since J Howard isn't ready yet, that would leave us needing that player to be either Martin or Nick. Nick is mostly an outside shooter so I guess we would need it to be Martin. But if you do try Nick, he needs to be instructed to drive and get the foul.

And if you don't have that player, you need a different strategy. Sadly, I don't see an obvious one so we likely will be an outside jump shooting team with Kirk or Nick getting minutes there. The other way to go is to play Yi at SF but then you have even less in the post relying on McGee who doesn't play good position. Or you move Dray to center and let Yi and McGee play more PF. At least let Dray play center on defense.

This goes to a few posts I did recently where I was talking about these kinds of moves. Sadly, if we don't have AT playing SF, more of what we can do likely comes down to Yi, Armstrong and Seraphin. That was the case even with AT healthy but now it just amplified even more because without that driving strong SF, you need centers who can defend and score.

It was good to see Yi step it up for a game. I just hope that was the start of some consistent play from him cuz there is no help on the way and McGee can't be relied on to play position D or post up score. That leaves us Yi, Dray, Armstrong and Seraphin not just covering at center but actually needing to produce like a complete center. There is the problem for the Chicago game if we don't have Al Thorton playing at the level he was. With Al, it would have been a tough game. Without him, it would be a blow out unless someone who hasn't been a stud, steps up to be one.

Wall, Gil, Kirk and Dray aren't going to be enough.

They said yesterday he was sick but Lee said that Al thought he may have pulled something because his stomach was hurting him alot. Also, dont get what I said twisted. Im just talking about for the game tomorrow because I dont trust Flip to start Gil yet. This opens the door for that. I dont see him benching Gil after he starts him. Then I hope Al comes back the very next game and starts at the 3 while moving Kirk to the bench. Im just now reading the other post and yeah, everyone seems to feel pretty much like that about Gil

[hands11]

Don't mistake criticism and frustration for hate Nate. I see this team being 2 or 3 games better than their record. Flip has said repeatedly that non-productive players would be replaced. I'm on-board with that, when is he actually going to do it? If it means Armstrong playing for 5 minutes instead of Seraphin than I have a problem with it. If it means sitting someone who is performing well too-soon for someone who is having an off night, then I have a problem with that.

Orlando is on-top in the SE yet SVG is experimenting with his rotation. We are one of the worst teams in the NBA, when will Flip get beyond his 8-man rotation? If I see Flip trying-out some new schemes and player-combos to improve our defense and to close games, I will give Flip some love.

Flip owned up to the mistake of pulling Al that one game. What more do you want him to do? At least he recognized his mistake and owned up to it. The man has lots of new players. Player who are learning the game and changing what they have to offer game by game. He has Gil returning from a long time off doing the same. Even Dray was returning from injury and doing the same. Then he looses one of his most consistent players who had really stepped it up this year in AT. Plus while all this is happening, the players are also needing to adjust to each other.

Gil ( returning from injury - game changing game by game )
Dray ( returning from injury - game changing game by game )
Kirk ( New vet )
Wall ( new rookie - game changing game by game )
AT ( been the most consistent but still something they all need to adjust to since he was injured last year. And no he may be out)

And those are all core players. That isn't even mentioning all the work he has cut out to do in practice trying to get our other players ready. Then before we blink, Howard is going to be ready to start playing again. Another vet who is returning from injury and hows game will change as he find it over the first month or so. There are so many moving pieces here to make fit.

They have played only 7 games. That is nothing. So at this point every game has the potential of revealing something good and or bad that makes it so Flip has to adjust. It's going to be that way for a little while so I think it is only fair to give Flip some slack. He isn't doing to do it perfectly. The key is to hope he can get it good enough that we can win some games and stay close to .450 while all this is happening. Cuz just as we are gelling, other team will be getting better also. Then before you know it, we hit the break and when you return, the level of play ramps up a whole nother level.

But here is our big problem right now.

"I had a bad, pulling sensation in my stomach. I couldn't even go through my pre-game routine with my shots," Thornton said after the game. "I might've pulled something, I'm not sure. It's still kind of painful."

Without know what the hell that was, we don't know how long he will be out, if at all. Maybe he slept on it wrong.

If we don't have Al and Flip isn't going to do any major shake up, what is he going to do ? Who can fill Al's roll of Big Country driving from SF and hitting outside shots. Nick ? Martin ? Because without Al, we have two major problems to fix... SF and Center. Best case scenario is that McGee one day finally gets the message that has been sent over and over. Substance over Style son.

But even if he finally does and starts to focus more in practice, it is still likely to take weeks before we see enough improvement that it matters. The best news in that situation is that McGee has the physical ability to turn it on and do it as soon as he has the mental ability to match and Flip has been starting him, so he keeps getting the opportunity to show it game after game ... before he doesn't and he gets pulled. McGee has no one to blame but the man in the mirror. He needs to realize that starting may not last forever and that he could eventually loose the starting spot so that someone else who is actually learning gets a chance to help the team. Your in a fix for minutes, best you realize it and start listening. Yi also wants to start son.

For me personally, I would have no problem with Flip starting Armstrong or Seraphin for a game just to see what they can do. My guess is McGee gets about two more games to have the light go on, after that, we could see a change at starting center. I don't think we have a starting center yet. McGee is just getting the first crack at it. It would be best he realize that.

[hands11]

I hear ya dlts20

So you think starting Gil is the answer for tonight ? Personally, I'm not so sure that helps us. Actually, it could make things even worse. With maybe no AT, we are already doing to need to adjust. Gil and Wall adjusting to each other is something we are already doing by putting them in together as different points in the game. They will get better in time but it is going to take time as each adjust and expands there game. In the end it will be a better version of Gil and Hughes. I saw some progress in yesterdays game as Gil handled the ball sometimes when they were both out there giving Wall a taste of playing the off guard in that situation. While Wall didn't hit the open shots, he still got a taste of what that looked like. Wall is a quick study so I would expect that experience to turn into fruit in short order. Maybe even this next game. That is how fast Wall learns.

But Wall has more experience and productiveness running the team without Gil and Gil more experience running it without Wall. So let Gil do that with the second unit with Nick at SG who he knows and likes and feels comfortable with. That way you get the most out of both line ups. Gil isn't going to miss that many shots again. That was rust. I would run Wall and Kirk and Gil and Nick. This give Gil the best chance to play his way back into his game also. Then you do like we have and give Wall and Gil some minutes together so they can continue to learn how to make the most of that with each playing some PG and some off the ball. Eventually, that will be a productive way to finish the game. Them starting together isn't as important. I think it is better to spread out there talents the first three quarters.

I think that makes the most sense for now for PG and SG. I would rather see Gil leading the 2nd unit with room to operate than to see him trying to figure out and limit his game with Wall in the first unit right now. Gil needs room to find his game right now. That is enough for him to worry about as he plays back into shape. Plus, Gil running the second unit is more powerful than Kirk doing it. With us being short handed on post play, we need to max the talent we have and that is at guard.

With so much going on, I wouldn't change that part nor is it our biggest problem. The problem is SF, PF and Center if we don't have Al.

IMO

[AceDegenerate]

I think Gilbert is just about physically ready to start out there. However, I think Flip is going to have a hell of a time not starting Kirk. I will be shocked to ever see Kirk Hinrich come off the bench for this team, and I think that is going to severely hinder us going forward.

All along it seemed completely suspect to bring in Hinrich @ 9M per to backup Wall. However, the plan from EG and/or Flip may have been for him to be our starting SG all along.

[JonathanJoseph]

"We've got to decide what to do," Van Gundy said.

"You're not going to overreact to one game, but at all our positions, I'm pretty patient, but we've got some guys that just really aren't being very productive. So, we've got other guys sitting down. They're going to have to get a chance to play if other guys are not going to produce. We've got too many good players to just give people minutes for a long period of time."

JVG on rotating his guys, something Flip could learn from. Flip should stop whining about the guys HE plays not getting it done on the glass and defensively while never giving anyone else an opportunity to soneone else to do better. If your shot isn't falling, no-worries, stay in the game and fire away.

I can live with guys missing shots, its the mental approach to the game that you realistically shouldn't have any slippage in that area.

AT & Gil went 3-22 last night, Gil, KH, Wall combined for 2 FGs in 4th quarter, nobody else's number was called.

closg00, the depth of your hate for Flip Saunders continues to amaze me. You've criticized him in the past for being too quick to pull McGee, and now you're criticizing him because he won't utilize his bench to replace non-productive starters.

And you make this criticism despite Flip being quoted on this very page of the thread that he won't be rewarding mistakes; which means he will be replacing non productive players with productive ones.

He's just a hater. He also hates EG but somehow Flip is now got EGs >.500 roster underperforming. His hate isn't even logically consistent.

[pancakes3]

i think we're just frustrated - not by the rotations but by the inconsistencies. yi played well against the rockets, then bombed against the bobcats. armstrong is serviceable against the knicks but then buckles against the cavs. gil shoots .500 from 3 land then last night goes ice cold 1-9. the pieces are there but we're not marching in step. i guess the same could be said about the heat.

just like miami isn't a .500 team, i don't believe we're a 1-9 team either. we're talented enough to be .500 and miami is good enough to be .700 team. it's just we've got a bunch of new guys coming together whose roles are drastically different than what they were last season (wall can't just floor it to the rim at his whim, blatche isn't given the green light, arenas isn't top dog, yi asked to play defense, mcgee expected to perform major minutes, etc).

i guess flip is to blame for not whipping the team into shape sooner, but we've got some real knuckleheads on the team. it's good to see blatche being vocal and serious and that's a sign of the cohesion to come.

[LyricalRico]

He's just a hater. He also hates EG but somehow Flip is now got EGs >.500 roster underperforming. His hate isn't even logically consistent.

So true.

[Hoopalotta]

Well just say that there's some rather entrenched positions on both sides of the management-coaching question and leave it at that.

Both teams played hard.

[dobrojim]

first of all we were hosed all night by the stripes.

we shot our 2nd FT of the game with about 2 min left,
in the 3RD freakin quarter. Sure CHA is a good defensive
team. But nobody is that freakin good. They hosed
us over and over all night. No shooting fouls, Wall
going in hard and getting no love. The egregious call
on Yi where one ref who had it wrong overruled the
guy who had it right. Yi was close to a foot outside
the restricted area and the ref sees him lift his heels
and gets completely fooled.

I think the thing with Gil is at least partly mental right
now. He was boarding, D'ing and distributing like a demon.
It's hard for me to believe he could board that well if
his legs were mostly ok. And he got 2 steals within about
1.5 min of coming in the game. And they were not gambling
steals.

Our zone was betting burned. Players have to stay at home
and close out on shooters. It really is that simple. We've got a lot
of work to do defensively. That the game was close was kinda
surprising actually, esp with Gil/AT not being able to throw it
in the ocean.

KH actually played quite decently.

Brown apparently game planned pretty well for Walls
roaming D.

assuming one's typing is good - mine isn't always -
loose = opposite of tight
lose = opposite of win
just a random thought

[closg00]

Well just say that there's some rather entrenched positions on both sides of the management-coaching question and leave it at that.

Both teams played hard.

Such a diplomat Hoopalotta, you are involved yet removed from it all at the same time

[closg00]

He's just a hater. He also hates EG but somehow Flip is now got EGs >.500 roster underperforming. His hate isn't even logically consistent.

So true.

When are you and JoJo going to get a room? You could watch Grunfeld pressers on the laptop and reminisce about Ernie's 7 years here managing the team

Rico is a good guy