Game Thread: Wizards vs Raptors (11/16/10)

[dobrojim]

Gil Is Good But Could Be Great If......


[snip] Its all mental.

[snip]
The other thing is that he's getting more & more burst every game. He'll never be what he was or be a John Wall but these last few games and the Raptors game in particular, I saw some plays where he looked mad quick driving the ball but he rarely looked for the rim or took off alot of gas when he got there. Last but not least and the main reason why I feel that its mental is because of his rebounding. Have you been watching him? Forget the numbers he's getting but look how he gets them. He's getting way up. He's jumping over 7 footers alot of times. He'll come through the crowd with no worries and sky up for a board, yet on the Offensive end he's timid at the rim & barely leaves the ground. That crap is mental.

Gil got 20 tonight and played a very good all around game but that shouldve easily had been a 30pt game and dont tell me that its better for him to do all around stuff. He can do both, just like Wade or whoever. Im just saying that it shouldve been 30 because if he attacks more & goes to the rack like he goes for boards then he's back to getting to the line 8 times per game, espically with Wall pushing the rock. Not only that but the guy is literally probably P4P the strongest guy in the league right now. Look at him going for boards or look at him when he drives & bumps into someone. No one is stronger. He's mad powerful and guys are bouncing off him.

You get Howard back & coming off the bench while getting Dray more healthy then this team is very good if Gil just adds that final mental hurdle and yes it is mental. He gets that back and he will look unstoppable out there. Just throw caution to the wind Gil and go at the rack, jump high like you do on the boards, and try to finish. Its all mental. Dont get it twisted though. I know its early and he's just getting back so he can definitely get there but someone just needs to tell him about it also. He can do it, easily

good points! I think he'll get there. This is his 5th game? I don't think
he really needs to be told. The understanding will come with time.

Our backcourt could be completely sick if we get just a bit
of the potential upside that's there, incl Hinrich and (WillB will hate this)
Nick Young who figures to see more G minutes when Howard returns.

[REDardWIZskin]

The rotations in that zone are getting better by the game, like i said Monday. It could be really good come Jan-Feb if they keep improving

K-Serph is a dawg man he was jus pushing people lol. I love it.

[willbcocks]

Our backcourt could be completely sick if we get just a bit
of the potential upside that's there, incl Hinrich and (WillB will hate this)
Nick Young who figures to see more G minutes when Howard returns.

Ha, almost. I don't actually dislike Hinrich--I think he does a lot of things decently and is a solid 3rd guard. Just think he likes to hear the pounding of the ball.

Young on the other hand...Since I remembered incorrectly on a statement I made about Gil in the last gamethread and Booker in this thread, I ran a check via the awesome league pass event feature, and I will invite everyone to watch Nick Young's six rebounds. He had one legit rebound out of six--the first one. He then proceeded to 2) with a surprised look on his face catch a ball throw right at him that should have been counted a steal, 3) catch a wide open free throw layup as the only raptor on his side was already boxed out, 4) catch a ball that caromed at high speed directly into his hands with no raps within the three point line, 5) get another rebound on a free throw when the only rap on his side was already boxed out, and 6) get another rebound that came right to him with no raps within the three point line.

I realize that joke rebounds count as stats too, but let's not pretend that he's acting like Gil and pulling down monster boards. Gil's rebounds game in and game out are encouraging. Young's showed nothing outside of jacking the ball.

[DCZards]

I realize that joke rebounds count as stats too, but let's not pretend that he's acting like Gil and pulling down monster boards. Gil's rebounds game in and game out are encouraging. Young's showed nothing outside of jacking the ball.

I like the offensive spark that Young has brought off the bench in 3-4 games this season. What you call "jacking the ball" I consider good, agressive offensive basketball. Nick is extremely quick and often can get an open shot with a juke and two or three dribbles. I like that ability as well as his ability to knock down the open three.

Did Nick take some bad shots lat night? Yes. But you're entitled to some bad shots when you've shown that you can score in bunches when you're hot...like Nick was out the gate last night.

[willbcocks]

And yet he still managed a -6 on/off in 30 minutes of a game we won by 15.

Nick Young can score the ball. But does the team benefit from having a blind horse with blinders on who is 2 made shots in a row from throwing up heat checks? Does he contribute anything else to the team except more goof in a lockerroom that's filled up to its shoes with it?

I'll give him desparation shots at the end of the first 3 quarters and that's pushing it.

[dobrojim]

Our backcourt could be completely sick if we get just a bit
of the potential upside that's there, incl Hinrich and (WillB will hate this)
Nick Young who figures to see more G minutes when Howard returns.

Ha, almost. I don't actually dislike Hinrich--I think he does a lot of things decently and is a solid 3rd guard. Just think he likes to hear the pounding of the ball.

I was unclear - I was suggesting you wouldn't like my optimism re
N1's game, not KH.

[dobrojim]

And yet he still managed a -6 on/off in 30 minutes of a game we won by 15.

Nick Young can score the ball. But does the team benefit from having a blind horse with blinders on who is 2 made shots in a row from throwing up heat checks? Does he contribute anything else to the team except more goof in a lockerroom that's filled up to its shoes with it?

I'll give him desparation shots at the end of the first 3 quarters and that's pushing it.

guessing a lot of his -6 was in garbage time. He was our sole offense
in the 2ndQ and was on fire.

[nate33]

And yet he still managed a -6 on/off in 30 minutes of a game we won by 15.

Nick Young can score the ball. But does the team benefit from having a blind horse with blinders on who is 2 made shots in a row from throwing up heat checks? Does he contribute anything else to the team except more goof in a lockerroom that's filled up to its shoes with it?

I'll give him desparation shots at the end of the first 3 quarters and that's pushing it.

guessing a lot of his -6 was in garbage time. He was our sole offense
in the 2ndQ and was on fire.

Yes. Also, Young had the misfortune of playing a lot of minutes with no one to help him on offense. In the 2nd quarter, his teammates for one stretch were: Hinrich, Martin, Booker and Armstrong.

[clancy]

And yet he still managed a -6 on/off in 30 minutes of a game we won by 15.

Nick Young can score the ball. But does the team benefit from having a blind horse with blinders on who is 2 made shots in a row from throwing up heat checks? Does he contribute anything else to the team except more goof in a lockerroom that's filled up to its shoes with it?

I'll give him desparation shots at the end of the first 3 quarters and that's pushing it.

guessing a lot of his -6 was in garbage time. He was our sole offense
in the 2ndQ and was on fire.

The garbage time at the very end was -4, so Nick was -2 over the rest of the game when playing with non-benchwarmers. http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20101116&game=TORWAS If you check the gameflow out, you can indeed see that the times Nick was playing without Gil (although several were with Dray) were more likely to be stretches in the negative.

That doesn't completely excuse him from those moments of over-dominance - I'd really like to see Nick learn to share the ball better - but it does show the offensive mindset on the floor with him. It's kind of a tough situation. I'd expect Nick to get more time if he could learn to play within a team concept better, but that's tough to do when he's out there with guys that aren't as inclined to take shots - we all know he's happy to throw them up there. But I do think it's a mindset they all need to get out of.

[Nivek]

Might be some truth to the garbage time argument about Young. Team was was net +1 in the first half with him in the first half; even in his 3-minute stretch in the 3rd quarter, and -7 in the 4th quarter. That includes a -4 during the final 2:12 when he was on the floor with Hudson, Martin, Ndiaye, and Seraphin. Only Wizards with 4th quarter positives were Arenas +2 and Booker +4.

[clancy]

Some additional stuff for the guards, using the +/- stuff on nba.com - and assuming my math is correct:

Gil, Kirk, and Nick together: +4 in 6:37
Gil and Kirk, w/out Nick: +21 in 18:16
Gil and Nick, w/out Kirk: -1 in 6:48
Kirk and Nick, w/out Gil: -5 in 14:07
Nick w/out Gil or Kirk: -4 (2:12 garbage time)
Neither Gil nor Kirk played a second without at least one of the other guy or Nick, best I can tell.

[nate33]

Young on the other hand...Since I remembered incorrectly on a statement I made about Gil in the last gamethread and Booker in this thread, I ran a check via the awesome league pass event feature, and I will invite everyone to watch Nick Young's six rebounds. He had one legit rebound out of six--the first one. He then proceeded to 2) with a surprised look on his face catch a ball throw right at him that should have been counted a steal, 3) catch a wide open free throw layup as the only raptor on his side was already boxed out, 4) catch a ball that caromed at high speed directly into his hands with no raps within the three point line, 5) get another rebound on a free throw when the only rap on his side was already boxed out, and 6) get another rebound that came right to him with no raps within the three point line.

I realize that joke rebounds count as stats too, but let's not pretend that he's acting like Gil and pulling down monster boards. Gil's rebounds game in and game out are encouraging. Young's showed nothing outside of jacking the ball.

FWIW, Young is averaging 4.2 boards per 36 minutes (pace adjusted), which is way above his career average of 3.1.

[go'stags]

I'd also like to add that, even if those rebounds bounced right to him, he was in the position to get them. Doc, Nate, and a host of others have pointed out that defensive rebounding is a sign of bball IQ, because you can see where the ball is going to end up and position yourself accordingly.

Now no one, including me, has ever accused Nick of having a high bball IQ, but there are some semi-encouraging signs. I don't see the need to lessen a 6 rebound performance. I'm sure there are a lot of guys who, if you analyze their rebounds in a similar way, have similar games rebounding the ball.

[Nivek]

I haven't seen folks say that defensive rebounding is a sign of bball IQ. I would not agree with that for the most part. D-rebounding is largely about boxing out your man and then either going up and getting the ball if it comes off your side, or having it bounce to you. There are some players who grab defensive boards outside their area, but that's not what Nick Young is doing.

[Ruzious]

If I'm coaching, basically the only time I'd play Nick is when we've got 4 guys in there who can be effective without ever shooting the ball. That's the only way I can see him being useful. It's apparent after 3 plus years that he can't pass, and he won't do anything but shoot with any kind of consistency. He seems like a nice kid, but if he hasn't gotten the team concept idea by now, he likely never will. Actually, if I'm coaching, I would have convinced the GM to trade him a long time ago.

[BanndNDC]

If I'm coaching, basically the only time I'd play Nick is when we've got 4 guys in there who can be effective without ever shooting the ball. That's the only way I can see him being useful. It's apparent after 3 plus years that he can't pass, and he won't do anything but shoot with any kind of consistency. He seems like a nice kid, but if he hasn't gotten the team concept idea by now, he likely never will. Actually, if I'm coaching, I would have convinced the GM to trade him a long time ago.

while i definitely agree that he should have been traded long ago (and ive been encouraging such sentiment for years) i did see some signs of him getting at least part of it last night. (not enough to want to keep him though). when he was hot (and gil was feeding him the ball) he was taking shots in the flow and making decisions quickly on offense. on defense his head was up and he was playing motivated team d. but then he started getting happy and joking around but didnt see the ball for a stretch. he went back to being everyday nick and forcing shots whenever he touched it. at this point (barring a trade which i think is in everyone's interests) id only use him in strateches paired with gilbert and ride him if he's hot. if he's not i take him out for awhile and give him another extended shot in the next half. ive never seen a player that varies so much each time he's in, it's almost like diff games, easier in theory than practice though. im just hoping he has a few more hot games so he has a tiny bit of value by the deadline.

[nate33]

Let's pretend that the Boston game didn't happen and continue to talk about this game instead.

[Hoopalotta]

Let's pretend that the Boston game didn't happen and continue to talk about this game instead.

[dobrojim]

how 'bout that N1!
he da man

(oops, that was the BOS game as well as this one)

question - his run of pretty decent play goes back to last
year as a starter...how long a run of good games before the haters on our
board start cutting him a little slack. He was our best offensive
player yet again last night.