A petition to fight flopping

[nate33]

I just don't see it as a problem, dobrojim. It doesn't make the game better or worse. It's just a way of adapting to the existing rules. I see no reason to put a stop to it.

[montestewart]

And I really don't hate players like Miller of Ginobili for doing it, mohammed10. Good players fight for any advantage they can find, even at the margins of the rules, but that move doesn't enhance my viewing experience at all, and if there was an enforced rule against it, they would stop doing it.

[mohammed10]

nate - I think we all have visions of LeBron or DWade doing this crashing. However, I have an issue when a defender steps in once the offensive player has already taken flight, thus undercutting him. This is where serious injuries can occur to both players.

If the defensive player establishes position too late, it's a blocking foul. If the defensive player had time to establish position, then the offensive player made an error in "taking flight" so close to a defensive player who was in position to take the charge.

I just don't have any problem with this at all. I don't consider it flopping. I think offensive players already get too much of an advantage with the hand check rules and the ticky tack fouls. The last thing this league needs is to punish good defensive plays. I love it when smaller, less-athletic guys like Nash or Kidd can stop big athletes from driving to the basket by using quickness and guile rather than brawn.

I'm also in favor of Vlade Divac style flopping on post plays (assuming there is actual contact and not phantom contact). I always hated it when burly post guys like Shaq could just knock people over on their path to the basket. How is that basketball? If I want to see huge guys knocking over smaller guys, I'd watch football.

nate - ok - thanks for the clarification. In those instances, I definitely agree.

The league has moved to good offense to supplant good defense philosophy...until the playoffs. That is when flopping and 'star calls' (see Jordan Rules) take over

Not sure I agree with you on the Divac styled flopping though. Save that for the soccer heads.

[nate33]

Now, if the defender was already in that spot (let's set a somewhat arbitrary count of 1 second), then Wall should absolutely have to go around him. No free passes there. I could live with the current rule (and BTW, take away the semicircle, I think that's just made it worse), but with the statement that the defender has to be set with both feet for one second, and then you'd still call a charge. Or, alternatively, something like if the defender is set with both feet at least one step before the man with the ball leaves the floor (giving him a chance to maneuver around the defender), or similar language.

I think the semicircle rule addresses the issue perfectly. Most offensive players make their jump only a few feet outside the circle, so there really isn't much space between the jump point and the charge point, and therefore there is a very small timeframe. In most cases, the defender must have already been set or else he would be committing a blocking foul.

And it's not like the defensive player is coming out of nowhere outside the field of vision of the offensive player. The offensive player sees a defensive player in the process of trying to get into position to take a charge. It's up to the offensive player to judge whether the defender will get there in time or not. If it's close, don't jump right at the rim!

[Zonkerbl]

I think it would help if someone would just explain the rules. When you lower your shoulder in the post and the defender flops, sometimes it's a foul and sometimes it's not. Why? Why are you even allowed to shove people out of a legally established defensive position in the first place?

I don't think it's bad for the game necessarily but I don't understand the logic (of being allowed to shove people out of position like Shaq did) and I can't distinguish a legal from an illegal interpretation of this twisted logic.

Same thing with charges. I at least understood the old rules of, if your feet are moving its a charge. Now they've changed it so if your chest is between the offensive player and the basket it's a charge, even if the defender is moving. I can at least reasonably predict the call now. When they first made the change it looked as if they had deliberately made the change to penalize Gilbert Arenas and I hated it. Now I don't care so much as long as it's called consistently and doesn't encourage undercutting players already in flight.

[nate33]

Not sure I agree with you on the Divac styled flopping though. Save that for the soccer heads.

Fair enough. Maybe I overstated the issue when I referenced Divac. I do think that defenders have a right to hold their position, and when they get knocked backwards by a post player, it's a charge. I can even accept it when the defense sells the contact a bit. But maybe Divac pushed the limit too far.

[mohammed10]

Not sure I agree with you on the Divac styled flopping though. Save that for the soccer heads.

Fair enough. Maybe I overstated the issue when I referenced Divac. I do think that defenders have a right to hold their position, and when they get knocked backwards by a post player, it's a charge. I can even accept it when the defense sells the contact a bit. But maybe Divac pushed the limit too far.

nate - agree.

However, I also agree that Shaq took overpowering his defender to another level by just bulling his way to the goal.

[Zonkerbl]

I mean you can solve this problem really easily by letting refs call a technical foul for flopping. It's a judgement call, but aren't most of the other calls they make?

If you flop in a deliberate attempt to fool the ref into making the wrong call and the ref catches you doing it, why can't he give you a tech?

[nate33]

I mean you can solve this problem really easily by letting refs call a technical foul for flopping. It's a judgement call, but aren't most of the other calls they make?

If you flop in a deliberate attempt to fool the ref into making the wrong call and the ref catches you doing it, why can't he give you a tech?

I think it should be something reviewable after a game. The reason flopping works is because refs are unable to catch it live at game speed.

[Nivek]

nate's right. Try reffing a high school game or even something like a men's church-league game. In many cases, when a player suddenly flails about or goes down when there's contact it's impossible to tell whether the contact was real or whether there was a flop. Especially when you're watching one area and the play happens somewhere else.

I HATE in-game instant replay for officiating in ALL sports, so I don't think it should be reviewable during a game (at least by the game officials). I've posted before about the need for post-game reviews. I'd punish it something like:

1st offense = $10k fine and a 1-game suspension
2nd offense = $20k fine and a 2-game suspension

Every offense after that would add $10k and another 2 games to the suspension, except I'd add a wrinkle. For 3-game (or more) suspensions, I'd require that the suspension be shared equally between player and coach. So, the third offense would be $30k PLUS a 4-game suspension -- two served by the player, two by the coach.

I also sorta like an idea floated by either Henry Abbott or Kevin Pelton -- to have someone in the league office reviewing potential flops during the game. If he identifies a flop, he gets a message to the ref and then during a stoppage, the flopper gets hit with a personal foul and the opposing team shoots a couple free throws.

[doclinkin]

Eh, I have no problem with flopping. Actually enjoyed Vlade's artful flops as the only effective defense against Shaq in his prime (Shaqtimus Prime). Loved it when Haywood took Dwight Holy Howard off his game by flopping twice in a game tagging him with two fouls.

Not sure why there's a crusade against a clever tactic. We already have neutered defensive players with the hand-check emphasis, at some point you might as well watch pick-up ball. AAU exhibition games: runnin' and scorin' and no dang pesky defense.

I suppose it's Un-American to cheat a little bit to win. But to me, shxt, get over it. Like they say in NASCAR: if you ain't cheating you ain't trying. Ain't nothing more American than that.

[doclinkin]

Unless it's LeBron. And then I say: Hang the witch! Burn him at the stake! Beat him with a pillow case full of tennis balls!


But otherwise, flopping is kinda funny. And sometimes it's nice to watch a villain be a villain on replay.

[hands11]

Flopping should be a post game reviewable play. If it was blatant, it should be fined. Accumulate a certain number of fines, and face a suspension.

Agree 100%. It shouldn't be the ref's responsibility to also look for flopping. The NBA should fine the guys after the fact and I guarantee that would stop flopping. How embarrassing would it be for guys like Blake Griffin to be fined every week for flopping? Players would stop not because of the loss of money but because it would just be so damn embarrassing.

True. They could do it after the fact. They could also do it in game. There are plenty of reviews. They look at 3 pt shots. The reverse them during a time out. That is all it would take. Call it unsportsmenlike, reverse the foul, and change possession.

Keep in mind, doing it later allows the bad call to effect the game. What if that foul causes that player to go to the bench. Or worse, foul out.

[hands11]

I don't think the issue is so black and white. There is "flopping", and there is "selling contact" to the officials. If someone tries to take a charge, gets bumped in the shoulder by the offensive player as he tries to sidestep the defender, and the defender falls down backwards in an attempt to sell the contact; is that a "flop"? Or is that a good defensive play? What about when an offensive player drives the lane and falls down after every shot attempt a la Dwyane Wade? Is that a flop?

Player that blatantly flop without any contact whatsoever should get a technical or some kind of fine. It doesn't happen all that much though.

My answer may not be "black and white" in application, but should be simple to understand and - for better or worse - be based on the judgment of the referee to make the call.

Remember the old NFL rules about when a catch was a catch, and they used the term "football move"? I'd like to see the NBA & NCAA have a similar rule, at least in the books. Any move that is clearly unnatural should not be rewarded with a foul call.

So, I'm sorry - running to a spot on the floor and planting your feet, without even looking for the basketball, just to draw a charge - that would be out, in my book. I'd give defenders more leeway in standing their ground if they're already in a spot, or going straight up to make a play. But I really hate the attempt to draw a charge, which has been the primary cause of flopping, IMO. You have to at least make a paly on the ball - not unlike soccer's tripping rule.

Likewise, a guy dribbling at half court who feel contact and flings the ball at the basket should NEVER get a shooting foul called. (Remember Gil used to do this all the time. Never did work for him.)

And a guy who does a pump fake and gets the defender flying by him - but not right at him - who then jumps sideways to initiate contact? Sorry, no call. Or maybe we'll hit you for a charge.

Point is, if the player (offense or defense) makes an "unnatural move" (in the referee's judgment) for the sole purpose of drawing a foul, rather than making a "basketball move", then no foul should be called.

And if there is an egregious act of flopping (i.e., Wade in every game he's played for the past 2 years), it should be reviewable and punishable by fine and/or suspension for repeat violators.

Most of what you outlined was already changed in the roles this year.

[hands11]

nate - I think we all have visions of LeBron or DWade doing this crashing. However, I have an issue when a defender steps in once the offensive player has already taken flight, thus undercutting him. This is where serious injuries can occur to both players.

If the defensive player establishes position too late, it's a blocking foul. If the defensive player had time to establish position, then the offensive player made an error in "taking flight" so close to a defensive player who was in position to take the charge.

I just don't have any problem with this at all. I don't consider it flopping. I think offensive players already get too much of an advantage with the hand check rules and the ticky tack fouls. The last thing this league needs is to punish good defensive plays. I love it when smaller, less-athletic guys like Nash or Kidd can stop big athletes from driving to the basket by using quickness and guile rather than brawn.

I'm also in favor of Vlade Divac style flopping on post plays (assuming there is actual contact and not phantom contact). I always hated it when burly post guys like Shaq could just knock people over on their path to the basket. How is that basketball? If I want to see huge guys knocking over smaller guys, I'd watch football.

This is the top of my list. I have ranted about this one plenty. You should not be able to back a player down by going through them. You should have to attempt a move around them. Dribble or fake left and right. Then get an angle and power in.

Ewing used to do the same thing Shaq did. They would just blow right through players. I remember our own Charles Jones being on the wrong side of this move plenty of times. That man would play outstanding D and just never get a call. Ewing would run right over him and Jones would get called for the fouling Ewing with his face to Ewings elbows. Pissed me off to no end.

[Zonkerbl]

Way back in prehistoric times, there was East-coast style basketball (like far enough back that you were allowed to take a two handed power dribble, take a step, and then take another dribble and a step, as many times as you wanted) that was very brutish and very much a contact sport. West coast style was more of the pure non-contact basketball.

So I guess I understand why the concept of enormous muscle bound guys grunting and straining against each other to get closer to the basket has persisted for so long. Personally I don't like it. But how would Shaq have taken advantage of his enormous physical talents if he wasn't allowed to plow through people? It's a marketing thing -- the NBA wants big, muscular guys representing the sport. The only point of being big and muscular is if you're allowed to grunt and strain your way to the basket. Otherwise you only get an advantage on rebounding.

[Nivek]

Eh, I have no problem with flopping. Actually enjoyed Vlade's artful flops as the only effective defense against Shaq in his prime (Shaqtimus Prime). Loved it when Haywood took Dwight Holy Howard off his game by flopping twice in a game tagging him with two fouls.

Not sure why there's a crusade against a clever tactic. We already have neutered defensive players with the hand-check emphasis, at some point you might as well watch pick-up ball. AAU exhibition games: runnin' and scorin' and no dang pesky defense.

I suppose it's Un-American to cheat a little bit to win. But to me, shxt, get over it. Like they say in NASCAR: if you ain't cheating you ain't trying. Ain't nothing more American than that.

doc: I take it you 'ppreciate it when a lady starts a dust-up with "Does this make me look fat?" And you say something like, "Not at all, but I like that outfit over there a lot better" and she counters with "You think I'm fat and have bad taste in clothes..."

[doclinkin]

Eh, I have no problem with flopping. Actually enjoyed Vlade's artful flops as the only effective defense against Shaq in his prime (Shaqtimus Prime). Loved it when Haywood took Dwight Holy Howard off his game by flopping twice in a game tagging him with two fouls.

Not sure why there's a crusade against a clever tactic. We already have neutered defensive players with the hand-check emphasis, at some point you might as well watch pick-up ball. AAU exhibition games: runnin' and scorin' and no dang pesky defense.

I suppose it's Un-American to cheat a little bit to win. But to me, shxt, get over it. Like they say in NASCAR: if you ain't cheating you ain't trying. Ain't nothing more American than that.

doc: I take it you 'ppreciate it when a lady starts a dust-up with "Does this make me look fat?" And you say something like, "Not at all, but I like that outfit over there a lot better" and she counters with "You think I'm fat and have bad taste in clothes..."

Yes. Actually my standard response is: "Don't blame the damn dress, lady. It was the cheesecake that..." then I wake up with a bloody mouth and a frying pan still rattling on the linoleum. I hadda marry a latin chick, din't I...

[hands11]

Way back in prehistoric times, there was East-coast style basketball (like far enough back that you were allowed to take a two handed power dribble, take a step, and then take another dribble and a step, as many times as you wanted) that was very brutish and very much a contact sport. West coast style was more of the pure non-contact basketball.

So I guess I understand why the concept of enormous muscle bound guys grunting and straining against each other to get closer to the basket has persisted for so long. Personally I don't like it. But how would Shaq have taken advantage of his enormous physical talents if he wasn't allowed to plow through people? It's a marketing thing -- the NBA wants big, muscular guys representing the sport. The only point of being big and muscular is if you're allowed to grunt and strain your way to the basket. Otherwise you only get an advantage on rebounding.

Big players can still muscle there way in. All the have to do is take smaller steps. Close the gap and just nudge your way back as the defender give ground fearing the offensive play will pull a spin move on him. If the don't give ground, spin or counter. Size still matters even if you don't allow them to ram themselves into the other player from 2 feet away like sumo wrestlers. That is a charge. I never understood why it isnt called one.

A player is allowed stand his ground so a player coming at him from 4 feet away can not go through him but if that player does it several time with the side of his body from two feet away, then its ok. It doesn't make sense.

I defender either has position or he doesn't. The offensive player can either blow over him or not. The rules say they can not. So call the damn charge. The defender should be able to stand their ground and fall on his ass when slammed into instead of trying to absorb the contract and get run over anyway. Shaq could spin when he wanted to. He was actually very nimble for a huge dude.

[Zonkerbl]

Oh, and defenders should not have to fall on their ass for a charge to be called.