GT: Washington at Detroit 7:30 PM

[dangermouse]

Im too full of cheer to read that huge post but i think i am with you pancakes.

Even with how good Drummond looks, i still would have taken Beal over him. Im sure Drummond wouldnt have lasted till #9 or whatever if there was a do-over. Cavs probably would have copped him. Kyrie/Drummond could have evolved into something really good, i dont think Waiters is going to get much better than he is right now.

Beal at #3 was the right pick. Right now he is a solid SG. When the refs give him more respect he will seem even better. Hopefully, paired with a healthy and spry Wall, he will seem like the ultimate complimentary player. Yin to Wall's Yang. Its something to look forward to at least.

[Illuminaire]

If Drummond turns out to be a HoF center, I will still be OK with us passing on him. His college production had serious red flags... some people here have said that he was a 50/50 shot a great player, or a bust. I think that's greatly overstating the odds of a player with immense physical tools but mediocre to poor production "getting it" and becoming a force.

I can understand why some people would still want to take the chance... but it's going all-in on a pair of fours. Just because you occasionally win those kinds of hands doesn't make it a good idea to play them.

[closg00]

Pan - Before you lump everyone commenting on Drummond into one group, keep in-mind that some of this is just commentary on Drummond and what kind of player he projects to be, you can see why he was projected to be a top-3 to 5 pick at one point. There were some guys on the board who wanted Drummond.

My point is that everyone knew that we had to take Beal and that weakened our draft position overall, recall the transparent leak that we might actually take TRob? Drummond should have legitimately been part of our pre-draft debate but he was not.

[nate33]

Can't hold my tongue any more for the drummond-over-beal talk. That's as knee-jerky a reaction as it gets.

1 - Who would you all have us play at shooting guard? Crawford? Who would be the backup? We have ZERO backcourt depth and we have ZERO scoring ability and that was showcased last night very clearly. The wiz had their lowest scoring output last night and it was evident that nobody on the court short of Crawford and Webster is anything even close to average offensively. Would you want to add Beal or Drummond to that mix?

2 - Drummond wouldn't even be able to sniff PT on this team. We had already traded for Nene and Okafor by the draft and we still had to find minutes for Seraphin and Vesely. Drafting Drummond would have left us with an even bigger logjam in the frontcourt than we already have.

3 - Drummond isn't even that good. He had a good game against us and he dominated the hell out of Seraphin. He's panned out better than most of his "haters" have projected but it's not a slam dunk. He has the luxury of playing on a smart defensive squad with a smart defensive coach and the luxury to crash the offensive boards because the team is long, fast, and sound defensively which makes his rebounding numbers sparkle but on most other squads he would look less impressive - especially ours. There was a play where he made a backdoor bounce pass to a streaking Maxiel and I thought to myself - wow. Any other team, playing with anyone other than Greg Monroe and Drummond doesn't pick up on that play. Good for Drummond. He would never be able to make that play because Seraphin would never make that cut, and Drummond would never have that instict.

4 - If you want to bitch about missed opportunities, I would understand if people are pining for Lillard or Waiters but Drummond? 3 double-doubles in 29 games, 1 of which was against our garbage squad? A mediocre frontcourt player versus dynamic backcourt players? Come on guys. If you're going to complain, at least do it right.

5 - WizD, you also were touting the virtues of Aminu tearing the league a new one because of his bowleggedness. How did that prediction pan out?

One big fat +1

Let's not revise history here. Very few people on this board actively favored Drummond over Beal. I can't fault EG for the Beal pick. The only guy on the board that I think was reasonable to consider in place of Beal was Barnes.

You can blame EG if you want based on the notion that the GM should be smarter than the rest of us. But don't act like we as a group are smarter than EG on this one. Most of us agreed with EG.

[DMVleGeND]

Can't hold my tongue any more for the drummond-over-beal talk. That's as knee-jerky a reaction as it gets.

1 - Who would you all have us play at shooting guard? Crawford? Who would be the backup? We have ZERO backcourt depth and we have ZERO scoring ability and that was showcased last night very clearly. The wiz had their lowest scoring output last night and it was evident that nobody on the court short of Crawford and Webster is anything even close to average offensively. Would you want to add Beal or Drummond to that mix?

2 - Drummond wouldn't even be able to sniff PT on this team. We had already traded for Nene and Okafor by the draft and we still had to find minutes for Seraphin and Vesely. Drafting Drummond would have left us with an even bigger logjam in the frontcourt than we already have.

3 - Drummond isn't even that good. He had a good game against us and he dominated the hell out of Seraphin. He's panned out better than most of his "haters" have projected but it's not a slam dunk. He has the luxury of playing on a smart defensive squad with a smart defensive coach and the luxury to crash the offensive boards because the team is long, fast, and sound defensively which makes his rebounding numbers sparkle but on most other squads he would look less impressive - especially ours. There was a play where he made a backdoor bounce pass to a streaking Maxiel and I thought to myself - wow. Any other team, playing with anyone other than Greg Monroe and Drummond doesn't pick up on that play. Good for Drummond. He would never be able to make that play because Seraphin would never make that cut, and Drummond would never have that instict.

4 - If you want to bitch about missed opportunities, I would understand if people are pining for Lillard or Waiters but Drummond? 3 double-doubles in 29 games, 1 of which was against our garbage squad? A mediocre frontcourt player versus dynamic backcourt players? Come on guys. If you're going to complain, at least do it right.

5 - WizD, you also were touting the virtues of Aminu tearing the league a new one because of his bowleggedness. How did that prediction pan out?

1. pancakes, While we were weak at SG, I wasn't a proponent of drafting Beal at #3. I would've rather drafted Drummond at #3 and used one of our 2nd rounders to maybe draft a SG like Doron Lamb or Barton. And I'm sure we could've signed a FA that would've had identical production this yr to a rookie Beal.

2. While we had a lot of depth in the frontcourt, we had no star power. Nene is 30 and is on the physical decline and isn't a long-term piece. While Seraphin had shown substantial improvement last yr, he's still undersized and needs to improve his rebounding (something Drummond is great at). Okafor isn't good, and Vesely isn't even getting PT right now, so I don't even know why you brought him. And with all the injuries, there would've been plenty of PT to go around.

3. Even though Drummond benefits from DET roster, do you really think he wouldn't improve our rebounding and shot-blocking? Regardless of whether our roster compliments him, he's still be an upgrade in those areas.

4. The reason why Drummond only has 3 double-doubles in 29 games is because he's only averaging 18.6 mpg, and he deserves more (Pistons fans are screaming for him to be inserted into the starting lineup. He's averaging 17.3 rpg per 40 minutes, which is 1st among all rookies, and is averaging 4 bpg per 48 mins, also 1st among all rookies.

And the reason why more people (me at least) are bitching about missing out on Drummond is because Drummond is 19 and a big man (which take longer to develop), while Waiters and Lillard are 2 and 3 yrs older than him, so of course they're more polished and putting up better scoring numbers. I'd take an older Drummond over those two any day.

If you're going to complain about someone complaining, do it right.

[TheKingOfVa360]

I hate watching the Wizards play, our offense is by far the worst in the NBA! We better play better tonight vs the Pistons. EG should be fired on the spot for building this team!

[The Consiglieri]

My picks in '09, '10, '11, '12:

'09:

No trade, take R. Rubio at slot

Take DeJuan Blair with 2nd rounder (I think we were all on board there)

'10:

I'm in trouble at this point, the choice would be between Wall, or a trade down for Favors.

I loved the Seraphin pick, and would not have changed it.

2nd rounder would have been Tiny or Gani

'11:

My preference at the time was to trade up for Valunciunas no matter what. Barring that, a trade down for Kawai. My preference in the late teens was Faried or SIngleton. I liked both.

My 2nd rounder would have been Tyler Honeycutt.

'12:

My preferences were 1. MKG 2. Beal 3. Drummond

I regret not having Drummond at 2, but I believe Beal will come around and be at worst a very good, top 5-8 SG in the league in time. He's a kid, I think he'll get a lot better.

My 2nd round preferences:

1. Q Miller
2. W. Barton
3. J. Crowder
4. D. Lamb
5. M. Denmon

The one thing that would change of course is that drafting different guys, like Ricky Rubio, or Favors, would have inevitably changed who was drafted in later drafts, so that guys we all loved, might not have served a need. Instead, the make up would have been different with different needs being addressed.

The sad truth, however, is that it's pretty near guaranteed the draftees would have been better regardless of what regular poster here ran the drafts going back to '09. We would have bested EG in '09, and '11, and would have at least had equal impact in '10 and '12, and superior impact w/our second rounders. There is no doubt of this as the posters preferences are in the archives and they are definitively better than EG's picks across the board w/only the possible exception of maybe Seraphin.

[hands11]

Im too full of cheer to read that huge post but i think i am with you pancakes.

Even with how good Drummond looks, i still would have taken Beal over him. Im sure Drummond wouldnt have lasted till #9 or whatever if there was a do-over. Cavs probably would have copped him. Kyrie/Drummond could have evolved into something really good, i dont think Waiters is going to get much better than he is right now.

Beal at #3 was the right pick. Right now he is a solid SG. When the refs give him more respect he will seem even better. Hopefully, paired with a healthy and spry Wall, he will seem like the ultimate complimentary player. Yin to Wall's Yang. Its something to look forward to at least.

And that is the main thing to focus on in the middle of watching this crap. That game last night means pretty much nothing. It is the very worst opportunity to evaluate this team.

No Wall, Beal, Nene and non of the support cast of Booker, Trevor A or AJ Price

Its not nearly as much about the supporting case though, it about no Wall, Beal and Nene. Get those 3 out there and you are talking a totally different team.

And Randy need to stop with his crap post game stuff. Yeah, we know people need to step up with what we have but come on. The injuries are killing the team. At this level where you are missing that many important pieces, it ok to say how back it is hurting.

How about this Randy.

This is clearly not where we wanted to be this year and we never want to use injuries as an excuse but the reality is, we have a lot of our starters injured. Of course that is going to effect the production of the team when you are going against other team starters. But we have player in the wings that have talent that we need to develop and this is their opportunity to make progress and show us what they can do. Everyone knows we are in the early stages of rebuilding this team. We added a lot of new players this year so even with everyone healthy, we were going to have to learn how to play together. Even teams like LAL had to go through that process and they are a more established squad. We not only did we add a lot of players, but we didn't even have 6 player from our roster available last night and 3 of them were Wall, Beal and Nene who are starters. That's tough. But we have work to do that will pay off later.

We are going to keep fighting every game with what we have and we are going to try to win every game. That is what you do in the NBA. This is a time for player to take advantage of the opportunities they are being given so they can develop their game individually and as a team game. This is a time for players to step up and grow. The time they get now is going to help us down the road because we are evaluating who the professionals are. Who is going to put in the time to get better. Who is showing up early. Who is coachable. Who has what it takes to be a player in this league. That is where we are right now. We are missing a lot of starters who will be returning and it is time for the next in line to show us where they belong on this team longer term. Will they be future starters, roll players or off the squad. They are NBA players. That is a short list. You have to take advantage of your opportunities while you have them. You only get so many years in this league so if you are smart, you maximize your opportunity while you have it. This has to be their main focus of their lives while they have it.

I know this is though for our hard core fans to watch but it is a process. Injuries happen and we got hit hard early in the season this year. But that is going to change. We are working with all of our players to get healthy for the remainder of this year and we are going to work with them this off season so they are healthy and ready to go in the future. This is the NBA. Its a long hard season. Taking care of your body is a year round job. Look at the best players in this league. The have a strong focus on taking care of their bodies. They eat right. Get their sleep. They get treatments. They stretch and train properly and rest properly. 80% of this game at this level is staying healthy and in shape. Clearly all NBA player have talent but not all NBA player maximize their talent and their opportunities. We have all seen that. If your not out there in good condition, you can't maximize your talent and help your team. That is our focus with our players. We need a healthy team if we want to compete against the better teams in this league.

For right now, we want to thank all the hard core fans that are supporting us and we ask for your patience as we get our starter healed up. And we thank you for cheering on the player we still have healthy that are out their fighting to get better and fighting for a win. Its tough right now but we know we have smart fans. They expect to see players making progress. If we focus on that, we will reach the tipping point and the wins will start to happen more.

[hands11]

Can't hold my tongue any more for the drummond-over-beal talk. That's as knee-jerky a reaction as it gets.

1 - Who would you all have us play at shooting guard? Crawford? Who would be the backup? We have ZERO backcourt depth and we have ZERO scoring ability and that was showcased last night very clearly. The wiz had their lowest scoring output last night and it was evident that nobody on the court short of Crawford and Webster is anything even close to average offensively. Would you want to add Beal or Drummond to that mix?

2 - Drummond wouldn't even be able to sniff PT on this team. We had already traded for Nene and Okafor by the draft and we still had to find minutes for Seraphin and Vesely. Drafting Drummond would have left us with an even bigger logjam in the frontcourt than we already have.

3 - Drummond isn't even that good. He had a good game against us and he dominated the hell out of Seraphin. He's panned out better than most of his "haters" have projected but it's not a slam dunk. He has the luxury of playing on a smart defensive squad with a smart defensive coach and the luxury to crash the offensive boards because the team is long, fast, and sound defensively which makes his rebounding numbers sparkle but on most other squads he would look less impressive - especially ours. There was a play where he made a backdoor bounce pass to a streaking Maxiel and I thought to myself - wow. Any other team, playing with anyone other than Greg Monroe and Drummond doesn't pick up on that play. Good for Drummond. He would never be able to make that play because Seraphin would never make that cut, and Drummond would never have that instict.

4 - If you want to bitch about missed opportunities, I would understand if people are pining for Lillard or Waiters but Drummond? 3 double-doubles in 29 games, 1 of which was against our garbage squad? A mediocre frontcourt player versus dynamic backcourt players? Come on guys. If you're going to complain, at least do it right.

5 - WizD, you also were touting the virtues of Aminu tearing the league a new one because of his bowleggedness. How did that prediction pan out?

One big fat +1

Let's not revise history here. Very few people on this board actively favored Drummond over Beal. I can't fault EG for the Beal pick. The only guy on the board that I think was reasonable to consider in place of Beal was Barnes.

You can blame EG if you want based on the notion that the GM should be smarter than the rest of us. But don't act like we as a group are smarter than EG on this one. Most of us agreed with EG.

Right. I think there was 1 or 2 that liked Drummonds and 1 or 2 that wanted Barnes. Everyone else was all in for Beal or MKG.

With me out there saying, if we got the #1, do a trade down for Lillard and Zellar with the logic being the Uni would be playing center and it would take him a few years to ramp up while Lillard would be productive instantly and Zeller would help us in the post and was good in transition.

[The Consiglieri]

If Drummond turns out to be a HoF center, I will still be OK with us passing on him. His college production had serious red flags... some people here have said that he was a 50/50 shot a great player, or a bust. I think that's greatly overstating the odds of a player with immense physical tools but mediocre to poor production "getting it" and becoming a force. I can understand why some people would still want to take the chance... but it's going all-in on a pair of fours. Just because you occasionally win those kinds of hands doesn't make it a good idea to play them.

I was the 50/50 guy. He had the talent, and the athleticism, the question was work ethic and mental approach, and he was 18-19 if memory serves, far too young to imagine there was little hope, or only 1 in 3 hope or whatever. I think he was a coin toss guy, did then, do now, I dont fault the beal pick, especially with Seraphin, and Nene in town. But Drummond definitely should have been under consideration, he was rated #1 ahead of Davis in many scouting charts. He shouldn't have gone as late as he did, that was idiotic, and I called it at the time, saying the Pistons were lucky as hell and got an immense steal beyond their wildest dreams pre-draft.

[pancakes3]

1. pancakes, While we were weak at SG, I wasn't a proponent of drafting Beal at #3. I would've rather drafted Drummond at #3 and used one of our 2nd rounders to maybe draft a SG like Doron Lamb or Barton. And I'm sure we could've signed a FA that would've had identical production this yr to a rookie Beal.

We're not weak at SG. We have no shooting guard. Crawford is a combo guard at best and has no business starting. We weren't just thin in our backcourt, we had no backcourt. I liked Doron Lamb and Barton as much as anyone else and even said that Doron was probably the better Lamb in the draft but it would have been insanity to count on a 2nd rounder to be our starting 2-guard in favor of a dice roll like Drummond. Like I said earlier - if you were crowing about Lilard or Waiters, I would understand. It's also worth noting that those guys are pretty much d-league talent.

2. While we had a lot of depth in the frontcourt, we had no star power. Nene is 30 and is on the physical decline and isn't a long-term piece. While Seraphin had shown substantial improvement last yr, he's still undersized and needs to improve his rebounding (something Drummond is great at). Okafor isn't good, and Vesely isn't even getting PT right now, so I don't even know why you brought him. And with all the injuries, there would've been plenty of PT to go around.

Well the benefit of hindsight knowing that Nene and Booker was going to be injured, Vesely would actually regress
instead of develop, and other such prescient ideas aside,

Drummond didn't average 10+ boards in college. He barely topped out at double-digit boards pace-adjust per 40. There was zero indication that Drummond was going to be a "great" rebounder. Even now with his gaudy numbers, he's only great at offensive rebounding. His defensive board numbers are merely "good". However, that's besides the point. The wizards just made major moves to acquire 2 vets at C and had 2 young guys to fill the C spot. Had we drafted Drummond, what's the plan? Keep 2 disgruntled 30 year old vets on the bench while paying them 8 figures a season for the next 2 seasons and just lose as many games as possible? Totally cut bait with our most promising post player and last year's #6 draft pick for the sake of maybe this next year's #3 pick pans out? That's a lot of eggs to put into the AD basket.

3. Even though Drummond benefits from DET roster, do you really think he wouldn't improve our rebounding and shot-blocking? Regardless of whether our roster compliments him, he's still be an upgrade in those areas.

He would be but do we need help in rebounding and shotblocking over scoring? We're bad at shotblocking and rebounding (23rd and 25th respectively) but we're dead last in points.

I actually think the Wizards are better than those numbers indicate defensively. Our DRTG is 12th best in the league and our DRB% is 11th. Compare that with our dead last ORTG and dead last efg%. Your personal feelings about 30 year olds aside, Nene is our best player and Okafor is still a smart, if not particularly effective defensive player. Our frontcourt is pretty solid and a sight better than a lot of other teams'. However, our shooting is anemic. It's just absolutely awful. And as bad as Beal has been, it would be even worse without him. We caught a glimpse of life without beal the past few games and it has been really bad. 68 points bad.

4. The reason why Drummond only has 3 double-doubles in 29 games is because he's only averaging 18.6 mpg, and he deserves more (Pistons fans are screaming for him to be inserted into the starting lineup. He's averaging 17.3 rpg per 40 minutes, which is 1st among all rookies, and is averaging 4 bpg per 48 mins, also 1st among all rookies.

And the reason why more people (me at least) are bitching about missing out on Drummond is because Drummond is 19 and a big man (which take longer to develop), while Waiters and Lillard are 2 and 3 yrs older than him, so of course they're more polished and putting up better scoring numbers. I'd take an older Drummond over those two any day.

So what? Why not trade for him after he's developed? Is Chandler winning any games with the Bulls? Asik? Is Dwight with the Magic right now? Is Zach Randolph leading the Clippers or the Grizz to the playoffs? Is Bogut with the team that drafted him as a teenager? Why put up with the growing pains especially when it doesn't help the roster? We traded McGee for Nene and got a really good C out of that deal. I'm sure we can find a big man later on that would be more than adequate. You can't forever play for the future. If you keep losing for the sake of the future, your team will be mired in suckiness forever.

If you're going to complain about someone complaining, do it right.

I just find it incredibly hard to believe that you sincerely believe that we missed out on something monumental by drafting Beal instead of Drummond and that our team would be better off. It's just flat out stupid to think that If we trade away our second leading scorer on the worst offensive team in a decade for another F/C to the roster, our team would be a better squad present and future. No. It will not.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

If I had 20/20 hindsight, do over, and the only choice to draft at #3 was between Beal or Drummond, I would take Drummond today.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... man01.html

--Per-36 minutes, he averages around 13 points, 13 rebounds, 1 assist, 1.5 steals, and 3 blocks with only 1.5 turnovers and 3.5 fouls.

--His effective field goal percentage is .580. His PER is 21.6. His WS/48 is a very, very good .182.

Andre Drummond's production is EXCELLENT for a 20-year old rookie PF/C. His numbers are as good as Shaquille O'Neal's rookie stats in all but one area, scoring. Rebounds, blocks, efg are about the same. Half the turnovers that rookie Shaq had.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... lsh01.html

If Drummond were the C of a team like the Heat or the Thunder, he would become an all star in the future. As it is, I wouldn't rule it out.

[roc]

Not too shabby for a big man that just turned 19. That = a year and a half younger than rookie Shaq FWIW.

Double the steals as well but even worse FT%

He has no plays ran for him yet but that will change as he grows more comfortable on that end of the floor. He reminds me of Big Ben in terms of needing a couple of easy looks on the offensive end to get him going and that usually translates into even more effort on defense as well.

Will be fun to watch him grow.

Hell it will be fun to watch many in this rookie class as they become more comfortable with the NBA game.

[nate33]

If I had 20/20 hindsight, do over, and the only choice to draft at #3 was between Beal or Drummond, I would take Drummond today.

No doubt about it. But that doesn't mean I fault EG for the Beal pick. pancakes broke it down perfectly. Drummond made absolutely no sense for us based on what we knew at the time.