Wall/Beal vs Arenas/Hughes

[dobrojim]

Hughes was a near guaranteed charging foul on the fast break.

Agent Zero was elite level O, scrub level D.

Agree with Sev that Hughes' D was overrated, apparently by whoever
votes for All-D teams as well. We know better. DWade utterly destroyed
him in the playoffs. Now DWade at the time (still?) was elite level O, esp
with the help of the zebras, but Hughes did zip, slant doodily squat to slow
him down. If he was truly all-league D, one might rightfully expect some
attenuation of Wade's O. It didn't happen.

One of EG's best moves was not to match the ridiculous offer CLE gave
Hughes which arguably was the beginning of the end for LBJ staying in
CLE. Ironic that first Hughes and finally the Great Leader of Men ended
up being the demise of CLE. By becoming part of their roster!

[Knighthonor]

greater potential than Arenas/Hughes

I really believe some of you Wiz fans have lost your mind over the years. Maybe its the same thing effecting EG?

[Nivek]

Seems an appropriate place for my post on Arenas in the Wall thread:

At his best, Arenas was one of the top 5 offensive weapons in the league. His defense wasn't good, but it also wasn't as bad as folks are retrospecting. I hand-tracked individual defense during Gil's years, and he was about average for a Wizards perimeter defender. The problem with the defense was partly personnel (primarily Jamison, who was a terrible defender), and more about the system they used and the lineup decisions the coaches made.

System example: better defensive teams typically have a set of "rule" or principles for how they want to play defense. Tactics are adjusted based on who they're playing and what the opponent likes to do, but the principles are basically to keep the ball out of the middle -- force it to the sideline and to the baseline where big men can help. Turn shooters into drivers (good close out); make drivers pull up and shoot jumpers or get attempts over bigs.

The Wizards under Eddie Jordan and Mike O'Koren didn't have those kinds of principles. They ran all kinds of zones and permutations of man defense. Their force rules were different depending on the defense. They placed a heavy emphasis on "activity," getting steals, and forcing turnovers. The problem: good defense is really about positioning and teamwork -- not about flying around and getting steals. The good defenses make the other team miss shots and get steals because they're in good position.

What the coaches emphasized fed into their lineup decisions. The best example is their preference for Etan Thomas and Michael Ruffin over Brendan Haywood. Haywood was slow and awkward and kinda weak looking; and also a VASTLY superior defender than either of those guys. But, Etan had the chiseled muscles and the dreadlocks and the menacing glare, and he put on a great show of activity. Yet, in tracking, Haywood defended far more possessions and was far more effective than Thomas. Ruffin was a decent defender, but not in Haywood's league those years.

[Severn Hoos]

Hughes was a near guaranteed charging foul on the fast break.

Agent Zero was elite level O, scrub level D.

Agree with Sev that Hughes' D was overrated, apparently by whoever
votes for All-D teams as well. We know better. DWade utterly destroyed
him in the playoffs. Now DWade at the time (still?) was elite level O, esp
with the help of the zebras, but Hughes did zip, slant doodily squat to slow
him down. If he was truly all-league D, one might rightfully expect some
attenuation of Wade's O. It didn't happen.

One of EG's best moves was not to match the ridiculous offer CLE gave
Hughes which arguably was the beginning of the end for LBJ staying in
CLE. Ironic that first Hughes and finally the Great Leader of Men ended
up being the demise of CLE. By becoming part of their roster!

Thanks, jim - although I have to say that I thought Hughes was an excellent defender..... at the PG position. He was quick enough to stay with most PGs, and his length could really disrupt passing lanes and sight lines. And remember, he was originally signed (pre-Arenas) to be the PG next to Jordan/Hamilton (later Stackhouse). And at one point, there was an article about Hughes & Arenas swapping defensive assignments, where Hughes would guard the PG and Arenas would guard the SG, and they made it sound like the two of them came up with that arrangement on their own. Which made me even more upset, because it seemed like something the coach should have been telling them, not a pickup game experiment. But alas....

Hughes' defensive deficiencies, IMO, were mostly around not having the strength to guard the bigger SGs of his day. Not just Wade, who you mentioned, but this was the heyday of Richardson, Carter, McGrady, et al. I even remember a game in Seattle where Ray Allen posted him up to score the winning shot. Ray Allen!

And love the connection of how Hughes & Jamison killed off the Cavs. What they couldn't do on the court, they did to the roster. If you can't beat 'em, undermine 'em!

[Ruzious]

When Hughes wanted to, he could cover almost any wing player in the game. He used to shut down Richard Jefferson when Jefferson was good. But he got infatuated with steals and being a "star" and stopped trying to be a good defender and team player.

[GhostsOfGil]

Hughes was way to agressive when it came to playing the passing lanes. He averaged 3 spg but gave up countless open shots in doing so.

[Kanyewest]

What about Arenas/Butler vs Wall/Beal? Certainly a better combo than Arenas/Hughes.

BTW< I wonder what Arenas could do with this cast of players as opposed to wall. The depth on this team is so much better not to mention that Antawn Jamison was pretty bad defensively and Haywood plus EJ's small ball couldn't make up for Arenas's average defense.

[Knighthonor]

What about Arenas/Butler vs Wall/Beal? Certainly a better combo than Arenas/Hughes.

BTW< I wonder what Arenas could do with this cast of players as opposed to wall. The depth on this team is so much better not to mention that Antawn Jamison was pretty bad defensively and Haywood plus EJ's small ball couldn't make up for Arenas's average defense.

Gil> Wall
Butler > Beal
Jamison > Travor


put Nene and Okafor on the Gil era Wing, and this team would be a beast!!!

also Gil Era bench was better or equal to current team excluding Nene and Oka

[hands11]

I just want to reiterate how awkwardly the pair of Hughes/Arenas played. I'm sure many of you remember how bad Hughes was on the break and how he refused to pass the ball, or play nice overall. Those '04, '05 years were kinda brutal when it was just Arenas and Hughes taking turns iso'ing. The fond memories from Arenas are mostly from '06 where he was a stone cold assassin.

17 FGA each and both shooting under .400% from the field. It was a thing of beauty.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WAS/2004.html

[AFM]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeIUy2OVkpg[/youtube]

Dude can still shoot. Nice 1 dribble pull ups, jab steps. Looks slow as hell.

[hands11]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeIUy2OVkpg[/youtube]

Dude can still shoot. Nice 1 dribble pull ups, jab steps. Looks slow as hell.

And thick.

[AFM]

Too much Moo Shoo Beef

[Silvie Lysandra]

If you had both at their peaks, this isn't even close. Arenas was a legit top 10 (really top 5, but people used his defense as an excuse to not put him in the top 5) caliber high volume high efficiency scorer (granted he was streaky) that you could build a title contender around. A healthy Wall makes this team a 45 win team, a healthy Arenas replacing a healthy Wall makes this team a 55-60 win team, because while Wall is an impact defensive player and makes his teammates better, Arenas is a superstar offensive player (Wade/Kobe/LeBron/Durant/Rose-esque), his defense sucks at the position where it's almost "okay" for your defense to suck at (while being flanked with solid to elite defenders 1-4) and he makes marginal players like Butler and Jamison look like All-Stars (What has either of them ever done before or after Gil? Butler was a first round bust until he came here, and Jamison was a rather inefficient volume scorer), and 8th men like Stevenson look like legitimate starters. Beal will probably be better than Hughes but unless he becomes a legit superstar in his own right, the difference won't be enough to close the gap.

[Higga]

Actually Beal's build and ability to stroke it from 3 kind of remind me of Gil. He's not quite the assassin Gil was though, he's still got that kind of timid look on his face. But that kind of attitude is developed over time.

Man how I miss Agent Zero. No we weren't a title contender but every game you knew Gil had a shot at going off for 30+ and just dominating anyone in front of him.

[W. Unseld]

Man how I miss Agent Zero. No we weren't a title contender but every game you knew Gil had a shot at going off for 30+ and just dominating anyone in front of him.

This. Only one team wins the title everyone else is heartbroken (or worse-they stopped caring early) with Gil you might not have won the title (most teams don't) but d*mn if you weren't totally entertained every night. I think the law he was prosecuted under was declared unconstitutional a year later (not the exact DC law but a similar one from another state--this isn't political this is "I miss Agent Zero")

[Higga]

Man how I miss Agent Zero. No we weren't a title contender but every game you knew Gil had a shot at going off for 30+ and just dominating anyone in front of him.

This. Only one team wins the title everyone else is heartbroken (or worse-they stopped caring early) with Gil you might not have won the title (most teams don't) but d*mn if you weren't totally entertained every night. I think the law he was prosecuted under was declared unconstitutional a year later (not the exact DC law but a similar one from another state--this isn't political this is "I miss Agent Zero")

Exactly. NBA is so luck based that I really don't care if the Wizards ever win a title. As long as they give me solid entertainment between NFL and MLB seasons(where the real D.C. contenders lie), I'm happy. And Gil was VERY entertaining, on top of being a legit top 5-10 player.

And nobody cared about his antics or foolishness until after he got hurt. When he was dominating it was just "Gil being Gil" and we laughed it off.