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Rui Hachimura

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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#841 » by pcbothwel » Fri Nov 8, 2019 2:51 pm

tontoz wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:
tontoz wrote:

If he said he was all in on Rui from early on that is definitely worrisome to me. Sounds like an EG move.


Lets step back for a second... We all know that the NBA and NFL are different sports. In football, you can keep adding a bunch of good players on top of each other and all of sudden...good team.

In the NBA, you really need top end talent to have a shot. If Rui jumped off the screen and screamed "Star", then I dont blame him.
I do believe it is company talk a bit, but I do understand finding a star and locking in.



That mindset screams "amateur". I don't want my GM looking for guys who "jump off the screen". I want them to be analytical, looking at the strengths and weaknesses of everyone.

Part of Rui's 'star power' is because he is from Japan. Did they draft him based in part because of his marketability in Japan? That would be the kind of thing that would make them 'lock in'.

I am not worried about bad shooting games here and there. I am worried about his matador tendencies.


Please explain to me. Statistically, Rui had a tremendous Jr year at Gonzaga, he improved year over year, was called a "Sponge", tremendous work ethic, great measurables, great work ethic, strong, coordinated, etc...

The eye test clearly shows he has the skills to be a NBA all star. The stats back that up. The only concern any GM would have with him is:
Does he love the sport (New to the game)?
Does he have the processor to slow the game down and put together his skills sequentially when the live bullets fire?
Will he embrace the physicality?

If a team is comfortable with the answers to those questions, then nothing "Analytically" would have you shy away from him...
You act like he was some dumpster fire like Cam Reddish/Kevin Porter (I hated from the start) or underwhelming like Little/Langford. Whereas he was more Coby White/ RJ Barrett in the "Effective with High usage" category.

Look... I was one of the early detractors of Rui because I wasnt sure about his intangibles and thought he was a bully ball player. I was wrong due to lack of research (Im not paid for this, so who cares). We'll see how well he puts it together, but I would be SHOCKED if you dont see vast improvements month over month and year over year. All evidence points to that from EVERY person who is interviewed about him.

When guys dont "have it" upstairs, you hear rumblings early on and players/coaches/FO folks will drop hints like "Player X is figuring it out, but he is starting to realize what it takes to be an NBA player"... "He just needs to focus a little more"... "He's a young kid and there's a lot of expectation, hopefully he'll be able to step up"...

All nice ways of saying there are cerebral/work ethic issue.

You dont hear ANYTHING like that with Rui and you dont hear that with Troy Brown. Nothing but "Its starting to click for him"..."He loves asking questions"... "He learns so fast"
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#842 » by pcbothwel » Fri Nov 8, 2019 2:56 pm

tontoz wrote:
nate33 wrote:I think you're making a huge deal out of nothing, tontoz. I seriously doubt that the team stopped scouting people after seeing Rui.



If they come out and publicly say that they locked in on Rui early on, that is a problem. That is not something I want to hear from management unless they are talking about a top 3 pick where the best guy is obvious.

Of course they scouted other guys because they didn't know if Rui would be there at 9.


Again... you dont know their draft board.
If their board was:
1) Zion
2) Ja Morant
3) RJ Barrett / Rui

Then clearly Rui stands out because you have him as an elite talent and think you might actually get him. You then look at Hunter, Culver, Garland, Coby, Reddish, Sekou, etc. And think... "Rui is clearly better than those guys...and we might have a shot at him"

Doesnt stop them from scouting, but of course that means they need to dig up every detail on the kid to make sure.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#843 » by tontoz » Fri Nov 8, 2019 3:07 pm

I didn't watch college basketball and didn't follow the draft at all so I was indifferent to Rui when he was drafted. But given the management of this team over the years I can't help but wonder if Rui's marketablilty in Japan didn't play a role in his position on their draft board. That is exactly the type of thing I would expect from Leonsis.

Sheppard has been here while this team has made mistake after mistake. That means he was either on board with their decisions or wasn't able to influence their decisions. In either case that is a concern for me in general, not just in regards to a draft pick.

I am not inclined to give Sheppard the benefit of the doubt. Being "locked in" on a guy means that he may have been less open to a trade down scenario.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#844 » by DCZards » Fri Nov 8, 2019 4:14 pm

This is from an article in today's The Athletic. It's regarding the Indy game.

Brooks sat Hachimura not just because he was missing shots, but also to teach him. He wasn’t thrilled with his defense. The forward lost or unnecessarily helped off of Pacers sharpshooter Doug McDermott on more than one occasion.

There were times he jogged back in transition. And remember, sitting a young guy every once in a while can work. Just ask C.J. Miles.

“It happened some early in my career a lot,” he said. “I think it’s just; it teaches you an approach to the game. That’s what it did for me. It made me learn not to take those opportunities for granted and how I had to come out every night if I wanted to come out on the floor and help my team. … Everybody goes through something. Some guys are in situations where they’re kinda leaned on and groomed to be that guy, so they get a little more leniency, but I think it’s definitely a lot of guys that go through that, that come out better if they take it the right way.”

The 15-year vet is one of the most respected voices in the Wizards’ locker room, right in line with his reputation when Washington traded for him this summer.

He’s spoken to Hachimura since Wednesday’s game. He’s trying to help, as is Brooks. And Bradley Beal. And others.
“I don’t scold him or anything. He’s got to find his way,” Miles said. “He’s had some real success in the first handful of games. Then you get on the scouting report, and it changes. And he’s super talented and people are not gonna let him have his way, and he’s gotta learn how to approach the game in a way to know that and to be able to utilize his skill, his speed at his position and things like that. It’ll come. Everybody’s been through that.

“He’s level-headed. He works hard. It’s just learning his way through me, I.T., Brad. We talk to him as much as we can on the floor and off the floor. It’s just habit, the same thing, the way you approach the game. ‘You approach the game like a monster every night because that’s what you are.’ Not, ‘They know I’m a monster, so they’re gonna let me be a monster.’ That’s not the case.”

https://theathletic.com/1360855/2019/11/08/a-reminder-of-why-the-wizards-drafted-rui-hachimura-and-why-theyre-not-getting-away-from-him-no-matter-his-minute
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#845 » by smoothSeph » Fri Nov 8, 2019 5:00 pm

Plays into the rookies earning their minutes thing Brooks was preaching. Makes sense, to be honest I didn’t expect Rui to start day 1 based on that alone
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#846 » by nate33 » Fri Nov 8, 2019 6:07 pm

smoothSeph wrote:Plays into the rookies earning their minutes thing Brooks was preaching. Makes sense, to be honest I didn’t expect Rui to start day 1 based on that alone

Agree. You know Brooks was just dying to bench him for the first 40 games of the season like he did with Porter, Oubre and Brown Jr. That's what Brooks does. He's all about "making them earn it".

I don't mind Brooks giving Hachimura a very short leash - as long as he continues to get chances.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#847 » by nate33 » Fri Nov 8, 2019 6:15 pm

I think, for the most part, successful rookies are the guys who have one NBA-ready skill on Day 1, whether that's catch-and-shoot 3's like Huerter, or a halfway-effective slashing game like Barrett, or a preternatural understanding of defensive positioning like Jaren Jackson Jr. or Brandon Clarke. Those guys can find a limited role and contribute right away, while developing the weaker aspects of their game over time.

Hachimura doesn't have that. He's pretty good at several things but isn't quite NBA-caliber on any one skill yet. That in no way means he won't develop into a very good NBA player, it just means he might not be all that effective in his rookie year. Otto Porter was the same way in his rookie year, but went on to become an exceptional player. Troy Brown was also a jack-of-all-trades master-of-none guy as a rookie. We will see how he develops.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#848 » by I_Like_Dirt » Fri Nov 8, 2019 6:22 pm

nate33 wrote:You know Brooks was just dying to bench him for the first 40 games of the season like he did with Porter, Oubre and Brown Jr. That's what Brooks does. He's all about "making them earn it".

I don't mind Brooks giving Hachimura a very short leash - as long as he continues to get chances.


Honestly, I feel this is something that is to Sheppard's credit. Coaches are basically always going to be leaning towards proven, reliable, etc. It's the nature of the job. Every now and again you may get an exception but those exceptions are usually the result of an exceptional managerial situation. Good GMs essentially limit the amount of veterans the coaches have at their disposal. If a team is really close to a championship, there might be an argument to change things up but in the grand scheme of things, if a GM wants a coach to play younger players, they need to force the issue by building a roster that doesn't allow absolutely every younger player to be benched at the same time. It also comes with other perks such as cost controls.

In the Wizards case, Brooks can bench Rui if he wants. He has the means at his disposal to take a tough love stance with pretty much everyone on the roster not named Beal or Bryant. He just can't go tough love with all of them at the same time. Limit Rui and you're looking at playing Bertans or Bonga more. Limit Bonga and you've probably got to play Brown more. There are a few veterans in IT, Ian, McRae, Ish and CJ but those guys aren't all that good to begin with, aren't likely to spend long stretches healthy at the same time, and aren't durable enough to take on major minutes. Yes, there are veterans but Brooks can't lean on them as much as he (or any other coach) might be predisposed to because the roster has been managed in a way that he really can't. It hurts a bit now for the Wizards because with or without veterans, the team isn't particularly good just yet but the general premise is starting to take shape and I like what the team is doing.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#849 » by payitforward » Fri Nov 8, 2019 7:37 pm

DCZards wrote:C'mon, folks. If the Zards had drafted DeAndre Hunter, Coby White, Garland, etc. they would have been saying the same "all in" stuff. It's PR speak. It's also good for the ego of the guy you drafted.

What! What? Are you saying that I can't believe every single word that comes from these guys' mouths? That they aren't always sincere? Speak with forked tongue???? Use the green font?

This is terrible....
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#850 » by payitforward » Fri Nov 8, 2019 7:44 pm

prime1time wrote:
payitforward wrote:
WallToWall wrote:0/5 shooting is not something I expected. This makes 2 bad games in a row.
However, it was good to see him grab 7 rbs. Thats good for his average.

Rui has been neutralized. That's what happens to athletically gifted rookies with relatively primitive skills. Now let's see how quickly he develops past this problem.

Gogo Bitadze, who just turned 20, is a better player than Rui Hachimura, who is 1.5 years older. He's much more experienced, obviously, having played pro ball some years. Does Rui have a higher ceiling than Bitadze? I hope so, but I don't know so. Do you know so?

LOL, Rui has been neutralized? Please tell us how defenses have managed to neutralize him. Also, when he has a good game soon, and it will happen. What will you say then?

You misunderstand me -- or maybe it's better to say that I wasn't very clear.

I would expect pretty much any rookie to be "neutralized" after a few games. In the sense that he's more or less an unknown when the season starts, & then opposing teams have some video on him & start being able to anticipate him somewhat & take away his first options.

Of course, that's going to be reflected in his numbers for a bit -- the question is how long it takes him to understand what's happening & get himself past the problem with alternate ways to operate, etc.

As to "a good game soon" -- he played well vs. the Pacers.

In short... I didn't mean this as a criticism of Rui! Just to contextualize it; in fact to deflect criticism by suggesting that it was to be expected.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#851 » by payitforward » Fri Nov 8, 2019 7:58 pm

tontoz wrote:I didn't watch college basketball and didn't follow the draft at all so I was indifferent to Rui when he was drafted. But given the management of this team over the years I can't help but wonder if Rui's marketablilty in Japan didn't play a role in his position on their draft board. That is exactly the type of thing I would expect from Leonsis.

Sheppard has been here while this team has made mistake after mistake. That means he was either on board with their decisions or wasn't able to influence their decisions. In either case that is a concern for me in general, not just in regards to a draft pick.

I am not inclined to give Sheppard the benefit of the doubt. Being "locked in" on a guy means that he may have been less open to a trade down scenario.

These are good points to touch on. I don't think, however, that we can be quick to draw conclusions about Tommy based on them.

Moreover, unless you give a new guy "the benefit of the doubt," i.e. a long leash, you're going to be disillusioned with him pretty quickly -- for the simple reason that every GM makes mistakes. Tommy has already done some very good things. Moreover, none of them look much like the kinds of moves Ernie made habitually.

I brought this "locked in on Rui" business up, but I didn't expect it to be grabbed onto in this way. Personally -- as I've made abundantly clear -- I didn't think keeping our #9 pick & choosing Rui was the best way to manage the 2019 draft. But, that doesn't mean that Rui won't become a terrific player. Those are two completely different issues.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#852 » by payitforward » Fri Nov 8, 2019 8:41 pm

pcbothwel wrote:...Lets step back for a second... We all know that the NBA and NFL are different sports. In football, you can keep adding a bunch of good players on top of each other and all of sudden...good team.

In the NBA, you really need top end talent to have a shot. If Rui jumped off the screen and screamed "Star", then I dont blame him.
I do believe it is company talk a bit, but I do understand finding a star and locking in.

Look, man, obviously if you "find... a star" you should "lock in." Duh! The problem is that "finding a star" -- i.e. a guy in the draft who is strongly predictable to become a star -- is virtually impossible outside the top 3 picks! In fact, it's extremely difficult within the top 3 picks! What that means is that "finding a star" is not any kind of definable activity.

pcbothwel wrote:...Statistically, Rui had a tremendous Jr year at Gonzaga, he improved year over year, was called a "Sponge", tremendous work ethic, great measurables, great work ethic, strong, coordinated, etc...

The eye test clearly shows he has the skills to be a NBA all star. The stats back that up....

Improvement, work ethic, second mention of work ethic :), athletic stuff... those were all nice things in Rui's favor. Or Bruno Fernando's favor, or... a long list. But, the idea that any of these "clearly shows" the likelihood of his being an NBA star is altogether wrong -- that's not a criticism of Rui, obviously, but of this set of ideas.

As to his junior year numbers.... no, he did not have "a tremendous Jr year at Gonzaga." He had, overall, a pretty good year (very good if you like). & even that was almost entirely driven by his mid-range scoring effectiveness: shot them a lot, made them at an outstanding clip. His midrange game qualifies to be called "tremendous." Nothing else. In fact, his rebounding stunk, his FT% was nothing special, he took just under a single 3-point shot per game, & overall the rest of what he did (assists, blocks, steals, etc.) was meh at best.

In his favor are the answers to your other questions:
pcbothwel wrote:...Does he love the sport (New to the game)?
Does he have the processor to slow the game down and put together his skills sequentially when the live bullets fire?
Will he embrace the physicality?...

But, as to the crystal ball stuff...
pcbothwel wrote:...I would be SHOCKED if you dont see vast improvements month over month and year over year. All evidence points to that from EVERY person who is interviewed about him...

Whoa! Those would be some highly predictive interviews! :)

Like most rookies with talent, I would certainly expect him to improve over time. The way you put it is meaningless however.

I mean... if we simply conclude in advance, treat as an established fact, that Rui Hachimura will make "vast improvements month over month" -- for years, no less! -- then it's obviously inconceivable that there's anything empirical, analytical, or real in any sense at all that anyone can say about him whatsoever. He's already that "star" you'd like him to be, & lucky us that we were able to "lock in" on him.

Sorry, no. & I'm not being critical of Rui. As I've said, he has a chance to be an outstanding player. & I hope he does.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#853 » by I_Like_Dirt » Fri Nov 8, 2019 9:27 pm

payitforward wrote:Sorry, no. & I'm not being critical of Rui. As I've said, he has a chance to be an outstanding player. & I hope he does.


I agree with you on a fair few points. I just wanted to point out this last bit here. For one, admitting that Rui has a chance to be an outstanding player and hoping that he does isn't actually mutually exclusive from being critical. People can be critical while simultaneously believing in a player. You seem genuinely confused as to why people are interpreting you otherwise, though. I'd suggest it's because you're trying to link the aforementioned issues which might come across as somewhat disingenuous, and given that reality, you're being judged on your actions rather than your words, so people look to the amount of time you spend criticizing Rui and the amount of time you spend supporting him and draw their own conclusions that way.

Doesn't inherently make you or anyone else right or wrong. It just pays to be honest about what's going on. There is a fair amount of homerism with Rui, too, though I'd suggest that's a positive thing on a few levels. I don't think we have enough evidence about Rui to suggest anything in either direction just yet. And really, given the few players who are superstars out of the gates (and there are some that look like superstars and wind up exposed over time), it's probably a good thing we don't have enough information on Rui because at this point having enough information normally means knowing that player won't be a star. We definitely don't have enough information about anyone in this draft thus far to crown them stars already. Morant is probably closest but even he has to figure a few things out.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#854 » by pinkman7382 » Sat Nov 9, 2019 4:29 am

Great game from Rui. Shot well but also passed the ball. He wasn't forcing it like the first few games. Defense is a work in progress but he had a good possession against Thompson.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#855 » by prime1time » Sat Nov 9, 2019 4:46 am

Very pleased to see that Brooks is benching Rui for making defensive mistakes. This is how you develop players. Rui will look at it as a learning experience and he will grow. As far as Rui being neutralized by NBA defenses. If that's the case I have to wonder how he went 10-13 today...There's not going to be any "neutralizing" of Rui. Some games he will miss shots. But that shouldn't be mistaken for teams figuring him out. He's not a "rudimentary" skilled basketball player. He has multiple ways to score the ball and he's just getting started. Already you are starting to see improvement.

Today he drove, help came and he dished the ball to TB for an easy dunk. I literally wrote about the necessity of Rui passing the ball when defenses converge on him. And he goes out and does it. It's important not to lose sight of the big picture. We are trying to cultivate a complete player that can be a cornerstone for our franchise. That means sticking by him when he has bad games. Holding him to high standards and benching him when he repeatedly makes mental mistakes. Brooks doesn't bench him to punish him. he benches him to teach him the importance of whatever it is he's not doing. If Brooks lets bad defense slide now, what happens next year in the playoffs in a crucial moment down the stretch?

Even when we are losing we are trying to build in our young players' habits that will eventually be the building block for a competitive team.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#856 » by WallToWall » Sat Nov 9, 2019 6:15 am

Look at the 2 steals in this game #8. He doubled his average for the game. :-)
Actually, what I liked was that with his 10/13 shooting, was that he got 7 rbs, and 4 of those were offensive rebounds. I also saw him swipe at the ball multiple times when on D. He missed, but hey, that is a big change. Yeah, he still had a poor showing on D, and even got benched (good to see that) when he lacked effort on D. Overall though, this was a good game for him.

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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#857 » by Ruzious » Sat Nov 9, 2019 9:24 am

WallToWall wrote:Look at the 2 steals in this game #8. He doubled his average for the game. :-)
Actually, what I liked was that with his 10/13 shooting, was that he got 7 rbs, and 4 of those were offensive rebounds. I also saw him swipe at the ball multiple times when on D. He missed, but hey, that is a big change. Yeah, he still had a poor showing on D, and even got benched (good to see that) when he lacked effort on D. Overall though, this was a good game for him.

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Boy, does he play like a rookie on D; probably because he is a rookie, but I don't question his effort. He just gets schooled an awful lot. Only time will tell if he'll become to be a decent defender. And even though he shot well, he's got to expand his offensive game more. His game right now is built around mid-range 2's, and that's not a good thing in today's NBA. It's fine if he adds more successful drives to the hoop and a fair amount of 3's. Again, we'll have to wait and see if that happens, but it does have to happen if he's going to be an effective starter. He's got a ways to go. Right now, he's a poor man's Juwan Howard, and that ain't gonna work in the long run.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#858 » by CntOutSmrtCrazy » Sat Nov 9, 2019 2:15 pm

I’m just going to say Rome wasn’t built in 8 games.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#859 » by payitforward » Sat Nov 9, 2019 3:29 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
payitforward wrote:Sorry, no. & I'm not being critical of Rui. As I've said, he has a chance to be an outstanding player. & I hope he does.


I agree with you on a fair few points. I just wanted to point out this last bit here. For one, admitting that Rui has a chance to be an outstanding player and hoping that he does isn't actually mutually exclusive from being critical. People can be critical while simultaneously believing in a player. You seem genuinely confused as to why people are interpreting you otherwise, though. I'd suggest it's because you're trying to link the aforementioned issues which might come across as somewhat disingenuous, and given that reality, you're being judged on your actions rather than your words, so people look to the amount of time you spend criticizing Rui and the amount of time you spend supporting him and draw their own conclusions that way.

Doesn't inherently make you or anyone else right or wrong. It just pays to be honest about what's going on. There is a fair amount of homerism with Rui, too, though I'd suggest that's a positive thing on a few levels. I don't think we have enough evidence about Rui to suggest anything in either direction just yet. And really, given the few players who are superstars out of the gates (and there are some that look like superstars and wind up exposed over time), it's probably a good thing we don't have enough information on Rui because at this point having enough information normally means knowing that player won't be a star. We definitely don't have enough information about anyone in this draft thus far to crown them stars already. Morant is probably closest but even he has to figure a few things out.

Thanks. But, in that case the fault is in my lack of clarity.

I don't feel one bit critical of Rui Hachimura! What reason would I have to criticize him? I'm also not critical of his play in the league so far. He had a great night vs. the Cavs (off the numbers: I wasn't able to see the game).

Maybe you mean that I don't think that Rui's play at Gonzaga warranted him being taken #9 in the draft. That's true. It didn't.

But, Tommy Sheppard has said repeatedly that it was Rui's upside that proved so convincing to him & the FO. He's referenced his conversations with Mark Few several times. He's talked about Rui's relative lack of experience in the game, quickness to learn (in college &, since the draft, in SL, camp & the league).

In fact, the flaws in his game at this point are not a secret -- Dat & others have enumerated them here. Others have elsewhere -- & those flaws show in his college numbers (which all the same are quite good, as I've already mentioned).

Over & over again, I have tried to clarify what I mean by the difference between "how good is player X, whom I took with pick Y?" on the one hand, & "how well did I manage the draft by taking player X with pick Y?" on the other. Fans, here or elsewhere, may not care about the difference between those 2 questions, but that doesn't make them any less different.

They aren't the same question at all. Thus, when I'm critical of Tommy's handling of the draft, when I say that using the #9 pick (rather than trading down) was sub-optimal, that has nothing whatever to do with Rui Hachimura. Zero.

Maybe this will make my position a little clearer -- if Tommy had used the #9 pick to take Brandon Clarke, I still wouldn't have thought he'd managed the draft optimally. Clarke was available later; no need to use a #9 pick on him. Trade down & get both him & another asset.

IOW, none of this has anything to do with Rui & certainly not with being critical of Rui.

In 2011, I was pretty sure that Jimmy Butler was going to be an outstanding NBA player. If we'd taken him at #6, instead of taking Jan Vesely, we'd have gotten a much better player, right? It's obvious.

But, if we'd taken Jimmy Butler #6 in 2011, I would have thought it was an insane thing to do! He was going to be available later.

Claro?
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#860 » by payitforward » Sat Nov 9, 2019 3:38 pm

Ruzious wrote:
WallToWall wrote:Look at the 2 steals in this game #8. He doubled his average for the game. :-)
Actually, what I liked was that with his 10/13 shooting, was that he got 7 rbs, and 4 of those were offensive rebounds. I also saw him swipe at the ball multiple times when on D. He missed, but hey, that is a big change. Yeah, he still had a poor showing on D, and even got benched (good to see that) when he lacked effort on D. Overall though, this was a good game for him.

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Boy, does he play like a rookie on D; probably because he is a rookie, but I don't question his effort. He just gets schooled an awful lot. Only time will tell if he'll become to be a decent defender. And even though he shot well, he's got to expand his offensive game more. His game right now is built around mid-range 2's, and that's not a good thing in today's NBA. It's fine if he adds more successful drives to the hoop and a fair amount of 3's. Again, we'll have to wait and see if that happens, but it does have to happen if he's going to be an effective starter. He's got a ways to go. Right now, he's a poor man's Juwan Howard, and that ain't gonna work in the long run.

What my man Ruz said.

Nor is this particular to Ruzi: "time will tell" applies to absolutely every rookie. In Rui's case, he's shown a lot of good stuff right away. That's big -- especially since anyone who watched him in college could see a lot of where the bad stuff would show itself in the league.

This is a smart kid, who has everything he needs to develop into an outstanding NBA player. It's still "time will tell," b/c, after all, that's how the world is.
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.

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