Official Trade Thread - Part XLI

[nate33]

But hey maybe I’m wrong about all of this, and a change of scenery to a team with less shooting and a world class big man would be better for Simmons.

There are legitimate reasons to be concerned about Simmons. But that's also why he is available. When you are in the position that the Wizards are in, the only way to acquire a second star is to gamble. Things may not break right, but maybe they do. And if they do break right, then we will have turned Westbrook into a guy who passes and rebounds just like him, but who also plays elite defense 1 through 5. (As an added bonus, Simmons actually recognizes his scoring limitations and addresses them by refusing to shoot the ball, which sure beats shooting 20 times a game.)

[prime1time]

The trade board is discussing Simmons for McCollum + Covington. Sounds about right in value IMO.

I don't make that trade if I'm Portland unless they have another trade lined up to move Nurkic.

[payitforward]

Prime is 100% right.

Anyway, the issue is not "shooter" -- it's "scorer." Basketball isn't archery. Simmons posted a .586 TS% this year, comfortably above average for a PG. The rest of what he does, esp. rebounding, is hyper-elite.

Nor did he have anything to do with the loss to Atlanta! Embiid turned the ball over 8 times. Harris went 8-24, & Philly's bench went 5-15. So much for their "roster full of shooters." Meanwhile, Collins finally had a big game, & Huerter did too.

Philly turned the ball over 7 more times than Atlanta, & they put Atlanta on the line an extra 7 times as well. End of story.

I'm not gonna blame the Sixers lost on Simmons...but it's crazy to suggest he did not have "anything to do with the loss."

When your allegedly second-best player (who makes max money) takes 4 shots (and scores 5pts) in a 7th game in your building that's a problem that you just can't whitewash and say had nothing to do with your team losing....

Fair enough. That was an overstatement on my part -- reacting to the criticism being loaded exclusively on Ben.

But, he sure didn't have the role in that loss that Joel Embiid did! Or, to put it another way:

"When your allegedly best player (who makes max money) turns the ball over 8 times (while letting the guy he's guarding go 6-8) in a 7th game in your building that's a problem that you just can't whitewash and say he had nothing to do with your team losing...."

&, Ben didn't have the role in that loss that Tobias Harris did either Or, to put it another way:

"When the highest-paid player on your team goes 8-24 (while letting the guy he's guarding go 5-6) in a 7th game in your building that's a problem that you just can't whitewash and say he had nothing to do with your team losing...."

Those two guys were far more responsible for Philly losing the game than Simmons was. Especially Joel Embiid.

But, let's not forget to give Atlanta some credit. In particular, Collins, Capela & Huerter. It's not like it was an easy game that Philly somehow "gave away."

[prime1time]

Simmons had Embiid and a roster full of shooters and he still couldn’t help his team beat a 5th seed at home in game 7 in the conference semis. Simmons is not an awful player in theory but he’s basically a worse shooting Draymond Green without having the added benefit of having Steph Curry, and to a lesser extent Klay Thompson, to play with. And he makes max money so you and everyone else around here that wants him are high.die I mention he has an ego and dates the likes of the Kardashians. Red **** alert on bad judgement.

This is typical hyperbole. When a team loses fans need someone to scapegoat. Yes Simmons has shooting around him, but the truth is that he cannot co-exist with Embiid. There will always be tension. All of the other stuff you wrote has nothing to actually do with the topic at hand. Simmons needs a center like Brook Lopez and he needs to improve his shooting. He doesn't have to become an average shooter, he just can't be an abject disaster. The contract is tough but I'd take a chance on him. They are only so many elite talented players in the NBA. If he's on the block I trade for him and then try to turn him around. Beal/Simmons is a good starting point.

It is not hyperbole when he’s had the same issues for quite some time and hasn’t improved at all in those areas of need. I also think his ego is relevant in that he has been completely resistant to make even incremental improvements to his shooting. Dating a Kardashian to me further begets the ego point. And he needs a Brook Lopez instead of an Embiid? Someone who will clog the paint even more than Embiid? I assume you say that because a Lopez wouldn’t demand the touches but the notion on a whole seems a bit absurd that we would need to cater to him to that degree given that he’s “oozing with talent.”

But hey maybe I’m wrong about all of this, and a change of scenery to a team with less shooting and a world class big man would be better for Simmons.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kendall-jenner-devin-booker-boyfriend-kardashians-kuwtk_n_60d0230ce4b0c101b70edd55
D Book also dates a Kardashian. Stop bringing up things that don't matter and make it about basketball. I
As far as your comments about Lopez vs. Embiid, Lopez attempted 4 3's a game this year and exists to space the floor for Giannis. Several years ago Lopez attempted 6.3 3's a game. I'm saying that Simmons needs a player like Lopez because he needs to have floor spacing. The difference between Embiid and Lopez is that while Embiid can make 3's predominantly he works from inside the 3-point line. Lopez on the other hand spaces the floor to open up for Giannis' drives. That's the key. You need to have spacing for Simmons' drives. Look at how Simmons played in game 5 vs. the Wizards with no Embiid. 19, 10, 11.

[quote]But hey maybe I’m wrong about all of this, and a change of scenery to a team with less shooting and a world-class big man would be better for Simmons.
As far as this goes, the reality is that it's like anyone else. No one attacked James for needing a team that has shooting or turning Chris Bosh into a spot up 3-point shooter. If you trade for Simmons you build a team that can cater to his strengths. Which means a stretch 5 who will exclusively be a stretch 5. And as much as we might try to put Simmons down this is the same player that posted a triple double vs. the Wiz while also guarding our best player.

Trading for Simmons wouldn't be the end of team building but the beginning. You put a team around him that can cater to his strengths. 3-point shooting in general and most importantly a 3-point shooting big so that there are always lanes for his drives. In an offense that caters to Simmons there is so much potential. Why can't Simmons do what Giannis does with his drives? For his career Giannis is a 58% ft shooter. The reality is that if you trade for Simmons, you need to ignore how Philly used him - that was an offense built for Embiid - and be creative in how you use him.

[prime1time]

Prime is 100% right.

Anyway, the issue is not "shooter" -- it's "scorer." Basketball isn't archery. Simmons posted a .586 TS% this year, comfortably above average for a PG. The rest of what he does, esp. rebounding, is hyper-elite.

Nor did he have anything to do with the loss to Atlanta! Embiid turned the ball over 8 times. Harris went 8-24, & Philly's bench went 5-15. So much for their "roster full of shooters." Meanwhile, Collins finally had a big game, & Huerter did too.

Philly turned the ball over 7 more times than Atlanta, & they put Atlanta on the line an extra 7 times as well. End of story.

I'm not gonna blame the Sixers lost on Simmons...but it's crazy to suggest he did not have "anything to do with the loss."

When your allegedly second-best player (who makes max money) takes 4 shots (and scores 5pts) in a 7th game in your building that's a problem that you just can't whitewash and say had nothing to do with your team losing.

With the game on the line Philly was essentially forced to take the ball out of Ben's hands and give it to a rookie (Maxey). That speaks volumes.

I'd be on board for trading Russ for Simmons but I'm not so sure I'd be willing to add either Deni or Rui to that trade.

Simmons had something to do with the loss, but let's be honest. He shut down Trae Young. 5/23. Are we going to knock him for 4 attempts? Fine. But also point out the 13 assists and 2 turnovers. Everyone wants to focus on one play - when he passed up the dunk - but that didn't cost them the game. When the offense runs through Embiid, the most Simmons would do is get an energy bucket off a broken play. Simmons had a limited number of attempts not just because he wasn't aggressive but because that's what Doc Rivers and the organization wanted. They believed that it gave them the best chance to win. They could have had Simmons attack, but they didn't want him to. Way before the game last night, they made the decision that it was going to be Embiid's offense and Simmons would be marginalized. Last night was the logical end of that. So by all means Simmons bears some blame, but it was an organizational decision to restrict Simmons offensively.

[Ruzious]

Imagine if Simmons could shoot just a little - he's so exceptional in the rest of his game. You can see what the ability to shoot has done to Cameron Payne's game in Phoenix. His first few seasons in the NBA, he was basically Ish Smith. Now, he's a 44% 3 point shooter, and that's opened up his game - so that teams can't play off him, and that's set up his passing game. Speaking of which, he might be a good target for the Wiz - with the MLE - to replace Ish Smith.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

But hey maybe I’m wrong about all of this, and a change of scenery to a team with less shooting and a world class big man would be better for Simmons.

There are legitimate reasons to be concerned about Simmons. But that's also why he is available. When you are in the position that the Wizards are in, the only way to acquire a second star is to gamble. Things may not break right, but maybe they do. And if they do break right, then we will have turned Westbrook into a guy who passes and rebounds just like him, but who also plays elite defense 1 through 5. (As an added bonus, Simmons actually recognizes his scoring limitations and addresses them by refusing to shoot the ball, which sure beats shooting 20 times a game.)

It's not just a gamble, it's a huge gamble. Simmons is signed for four more years at ~$36M per year. I guess you could take a nihilistic outlook on cap space and it won't matter for a team like us, so there's that. The argument that he is entering his prime for those years of the contract would also be a real good one if he'd had shown any growth as a player in his 5 years as a pro player, but a quick glance at various per 36 and advanced figures doesn't bear that out. I won't deny he's a good defender, but I'll caveat that I think he has a huge advantage because he doesn't have to exert as much energy on offense given that he is often not really involved in the half court offense. His weaknesses will also be even more exposed in the postseason even if we were to be a good team with him. It just seems like it's a constant game of whack-a-mole when trying to justify a move for Simmons.

[pcbothwel]

Russ plus asset (Rui/Deni/Pick swap 15 for 28/Etc.) for Simmons & Hill (Waived) seems like a no brainer in regards to taking a shot. Surround Simmons with Beal, Bertans, Bryant, Mathews, etc. and make it work.

For it to work financially, Philly would need to add about 2M to the deal and thats only for Russ. So adding anyone else makes it difficult.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

This is typical hyperbole. When a team loses fans need someone to scapegoat. Yes Simmons has shooting around him, but the truth is that he cannot co-exist with Embiid. There will always be tension. All of the other stuff you wrote has nothing to actually do with the topic at hand. Simmons needs a center like Brook Lopez and he needs to improve his shooting. He doesn't have to become an average shooter, he just can't be an abject disaster. The contract is tough but I'd take a chance on him. They are only so many elite talented players in the NBA. If he's on the block I trade for him and then try to turn him around. Beal/Simmons is a good starting point.

It is not hyperbole when he’s had the same issues for quite some time and hasn’t improved at all in those areas of need. I also think his ego is relevant in that he has been completely resistant to make even incremental improvements to his shooting. Dating a Kardashian to me further begets the ego point. And he needs a Brook Lopez instead of an Embiid? Someone who will clog the paint even more than Embiid? I assume you say that because a Lopez wouldn’t demand the touches but the notion on a whole seems a bit absurd that we would need to cater to him to that degree given that he’s “oozing with talent.”

But hey maybe I’m wrong about all of this, and a change of scenery to a team with less shooting and a world class big man would be better for Simmons.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kendall-jenner-devin-booker-boyfriend-kardashians-kuwtk_n_60d0230ce4b0c101b70edd55
D Book also dates a Kardashian. Stop bringing up things that don't matter and make it about basketball. I
As far as your comments about Lopez vs. Embiid, Lopez attempted 4 3's a game this year and exists to space the floor for Giannis. Several years ago Lopez attempted 6.3 3's a game. I'm saying that Simmons needs a player like Lopez because he needs to have floor spacing. The difference between Embiid and Lopez is that while Embiid can make 3's predominantly he works from inside the 3-point line. Lopez on the other hand spaces the floor to open up for Giannis' drives. That's the key. You need to have spacing for Simmons' drives. Look at how Simmons played in game 5 vs. the Wizards with no Embiid. 19, 10, 11.

But hey maybe I’m wrong about all of this, and a change of scenery to a team with less shooting and a world-class big man would be better for Simmons.
As far as this goes, the reality is that it's like anyone else. No one attacked James for needing a team that has shooting or turning Chris Bosh into a spot up 3-point shooter. If you trade for Simmons you build a team that can cater to his strengths. Which means a stretch 5 who will exclusively be a stretch 5. And as much as we might try to put Simmons down this is the same player that posted a triple double vs. the Wiz while also guarding our best player.

Trading for Simmons wouldn't be the end of team building but the beginning. You put a team around him that can cater to his strengths. 3-point shooting in general and most importantly a 3-point shooting big so that there are always lanes for his drives. In an offense that caters to Simmons there is so much potential. Why can't Simmons do what Giannis does with his drives? For his career Giannis is a 58% ft shooter. The reality is that if you trade for Simmons, you need to ignore how Philly used him - that was an offense built for Embiid - and be creative in how you use him.

I misread you on your Lopez point, I was just waking up and assumed in my head you were talking about the Lopez we had this past season in Robin, so that makes more sense though Brook Lopez types aren't a dime a dozen.

Now let me unpackage your Giannis and/or James comparisons. First off, while neither of those have been or were good shooters in their early careers they still were capable of making jumpers. Don't believe me look at the numbers. Simmons has a non-existent jumper to the point he doesn't even attempt them. Second, comparing Simmons to either of those two players in terms of athleticism or talent is just not matching up your opinion with reality, he isn't even in the same ballpark. You are talking about arguably the two biggest freak athletes the league has seen other than maybe Shaq and Wilt. Again the number speak for themselves, but I guess I could believe that could happen if I do what you say and ignore the whole of Simmons' professional career because he wasn't properly used.

Point being, there's a real easy Occam's razor point to be made here: If Simmons is truly as talented to those comparison, or even 70 to 80% as talented, why wouldn't Philly have done more to incorporate him? Because the easy answer here is that he's not.

[DCZards]

Simmons had something to do with the loss, but let's be honest. He shut down Trae Young. 5/23. Are we going to knock him for 4 attempts? Fine. But also point out the 13 assists and 2 turnovers. Everyone wants to focus on one play - when he passed up the dunk - but that didn't cost them the game. When the offense runs through Embiid, the most Simmons would do is get an energy bucket off a broken play. Simmons had a limited number of attempts not just because he wasn't aggressive but because that's what Doc Rivers and the organization wanted. They believed that it gave them the best chance to win. They could have had Simmons attack, but they didn't want him to. Way before the game last night, they made the decision that it was going to be Embiid's offense and Simmons would be marginalized. Last night was the logical end of that. So by all means Simmons bears some blame, but it was an organizational decision to restrict Simmons offensively.

It was "an organizational decision to restrict Simmons offensively"? That's a good one. No, it was Ben's inability to shoot outside of 3 feet from the basket that restricted him offensively.

It wasn't the Philly coaches that took away Ben's ability to attack the basket...it was the Atlanta defense. And once you take that away from Ben...well there's not a whole lot left that he's capable of doing scoring-wise.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

Max player just needs shooters and the right offense around him.

[dckingsfan]

Eh... Embiid had a bad game. 8 turnovers... Korkmaz didn't play very well either... Hill was terrible (minutes that go to Green).

They really missed having Danny Green in this game arguably their 4th best player (and second most minutes next to Harris).

If those things don't happen, we aren't having a conversation about Simmons.

[queridiculo]

The trade board is discussing Simmons for McCollum + Covington. Sounds about right in value IMO.

I wouldn't put much stock into what the trade board is saying value wise.

Just go back to the various iterations of Holiday deals, the eventual package blew anything that was discussed over there out of the water.

McCollum isn't elite at anything, nearly a fully 5 years older than Simmons and owed $100 million over the final three years of his contract.

McCollum + Covington isn't in the ballpark and I am not even sure what Roco would add to the team that they're not currently getting from Thybulle on a longer and considerably cheaper deal.

Obviously if the Wizards can parlay Westbrook into Simmons they should do it, but that's a pipe dream.

The 76ers may make a move out of desperation, but Morey isn't dumb enough to get fleeced in the process.

[Silvie Lysandra]

Ben Simmons is a chickens*it bitch mental midget, but he's so **** talented that if you can get him in on a lowball offer (Bryant + Rui + ST Lopez), you do it. Extremely high risk, high reward. And if you lose the locker room, you can just blow it up.

I wouldn't trade Westbrook for this though. **** the lack of shooting, you NEED someone like Westbrook to even have a chance to maximize him. A big part of why Simmons sucks in the areas he does is because Brown coddled him for years during his developmental years. Lock both of them in a gym with Chris Matthews 12 hours a day. I can see Westbrook honestly embracing the challenge to become a better shooter if someone really pushes him. He's a hypercompetitor like Arenas, he's just never truly been challenged as a player because what he does is already HOF worthy.

Basically you're gambling that you get in the right coach, and that Westbrook's leadership pulls off a miracle, but the upside is so high you have to take it.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

Some stats I've seen out there today regarding Simmons:

-Ben Simmons played 34 minutes in the 4th quarter of Games 4-7 against the ATL. He had 0 field goal attempts in those 34 minutes
-Ben Simmons' 34.2% free throw percentage this postseason is the worst in a postseason in NBA history with at least 70 attempts

[TGW]

The trade board is discussing Simmons for McCollum + Covington. Sounds about right in value IMO.

I wouldn't put much stock into what the trade board is saying value wise.

Just go back to the various iterations of Holiday deals, the eventual package blew anything that was discussed over there out of the water.

McCollum isn't elite at anything, nearly a fully 5 years older than Simmons and owed $100 million over the final three years of his contract.

McCollum + Covington isn't in the ballpark and I am not even sure what Roco would add to the team that they're not currently getting from Thybulle on a longer and considerably cheaper deal.

Obviously if the Wizards can parlay Westbrook into Simmons they should do it, but that's a pipe dream.

The 76ers may make a move out of desperation, but Morey isn't dumb enough to get fleeced in the process.

The discussion is already happening in mainstream media.

Watch on YouTube

[Silvie Lysandra]

also important to remember that in a world the 76ers don't have Simmons, Trae Young prob averages 35/10/5 in the series. Ben Simmons held him to 5/23.

[prime1time]

Simmons had something to do with the loss, but let's be honest. He shut down Trae Young. 5/23. Are we going to knock him for 4 attempts? Fine. But also point out the 13 assists and 2 turnovers. Everyone wants to focus on one play - when he passed up the dunk - but that didn't cost them the game. When the offense runs through Embiid, the most Simmons would do is get an energy bucket off a broken play. Simmons had a limited number of attempts not just because he wasn't aggressive but because that's what Doc Rivers and the organization wanted. They believed that it gave them the best chance to win. They could have had Simmons attack, but they didn't want him to. Way before the game last night, they made the decision that it was going to be Embiid's offense and Simmons would be marginalized. Last night was the logical end of that. So by all means Simmons bears some blame, but it was an organizational decision to restrict Simmons offensively.

It was "an organizational decision to restrict Simmons offensively"? That's a good one. No, it was Ben's inability to shoot outside of 3 feet from the basket that restricted him offensively.

It wasn't the Philly coaches that took away Ben's ability to attack the basket...it was the Atlanta defense. And once you take that away from Ben...well there's not a whole lot left that he's capable of doing scoring-wise.

How did Atlanta's defense take away Ben's ability to attack the basket? They were guarding him with Gallinari and the 76ers just let Ben stand around in no man's land and not do anything. Why didn't Doc Rivers call any plays for Simmons? Can Gallinari stop Simmons' from getting to the hoop? The Hawks were never even concerned with slowing Simmons down. Instead they were focused on stopping Embiid and Curry. The 76ers chose to take the ball out of Simmons hands because of his ft struggles.

Did Simmons struggle at the ft line? Yes. But look no further than Giannis. He shot 42.3% at the ft line against the Nets. Yet, the team strategy called for him to be aggressive. Because Embiid and Simmons' play styles clash, the 76ers chose this year to become Embiid's team. Simmons had a career-low in ppg and the same guy who averaged 18/11/9 in his first playoff series averaged only 10/6/9 in the series vs. the Hawks. Way before that series the 76ers decided that they were going to cater to Embiid. We don't even know if the Hawks had an answer for Simmons attacking the hoop because it never happened.

Is Simmons' jumper a problem? Yes. But what happened in the series goes way beyond that. Giannis just shot 42.3% from the ft line and yet no one talks about taking the ball out of his hands. But, because the 76ers have Embiid every Simmons' mistake/struggle is highlighted in contrast to Embiid's great efficiency. With Giannis the organization understands that they win with Giannis or they'll lose with Giannis. With Simmons, his struggles combine with realistic options raise a question. Should we ride with Simmons or should we go to Embiid/Curry/Harris/Green/Maxey/Milton/Korkmaz. Go back to the trade deadline, the 76ers wanted to trade Simmons. And the playcalling shows just how little faith they have in Simmons.

Simmons needs to go to an organization that is going to try to build around him. Stretch 5, 3-point shooting and a commitment to making Simmons a passable shooter. There is still talent here, but when a player has a major flaw and he doesn't have the full backing of his team, destruction of a player's confidence is the end result. They should have traded Simmons way before this point.

[Shoe]

Read on Twitter

Get the 22nd pick in return.

[Kanyewest]

Ben Simmons is a chickens*it bitch mental midget, but he's so **** talented that if you can get him in on a lowball offer (Bryant + Rui + ST Lopez), you do it. Extremely high risk, high reward. And if you lose the locker room, you can just blow it up.

I wouldn't trade Westbrook for this though. **** the lack of shooting, you NEED someone like Westbrook to even have a chance to maximize him. A big part of why Simmons sucks in the areas he does is because Brown coddled him for years during his developmental years. Lock both of them in a gym with Chris Matthews 12 hours a day. I can see Westbrook honestly embracing the challenge to become a better shooter if someone really pushes him. He's a hypercompetitor like Arenas, he's just never truly been challenged as a player because what he does is already HOF worthy.

Basically you're gambling that you get in the right coach, and that Westbrook's leadership pulls off a miracle, but the upside is so high you have to take it.

I would trade Simmons for Westbrook straight up given that for all the talk about Westbrook improving from 3, he hasn't done it up to this point. Injuries also seem to be taking a toll on Westbrook this season. Plus Simmons is a really good defender while Westbrook simply misses too many rotations and doesn't get back on the defensive end.